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lclund1946
05-10-2017, 05:03 PM
I finally got to try my new 20 EXTREME that I had David Henry put together for me.
Specs: CZ 527 Kevlar; Kreiger SS, #5 contour, 25" barrel with 9" Twist.

I Got it near Zero with my 39 BlitzKing gopher load and found it easily shot this load under 1/2". May do better next time out as the weather is getting much more conducive to shooting gopher loads.

I had drawn it up with the 55 Berger seated to the lands and estimated it would up to 22.9 grains of Varget under the bullet seated in Remington Brass.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Scan_zpsikrofpvk.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Scan_zpsikrofpvk.jpg.html)

I did a ladder starting at 21.7 grains and going to 22.5 grains of Varget at which point my wife's ear told me that it was near full. I shot the following ladder target yesterday at about 15 Celsius. I did get my confidence up to shoot this off the bipod as I had just shot a 0.11", 4 shot group with my gopher load in my other new 20 EXTREME fitted with a 24" Benchmark barrel with 11"Twist.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Berger%2055%20Rem%20brass%20Varget_zpsdqsptxhm.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Berger%2055%20Rem%20brass%20Varget_zpsdqsptxhm.jpg .html)

Looks like I might find a good load with shots #4,5&6 grouping 0.06". I expect velocity to be 3125 to 3150 fps which is right in there with Berger's 204R loads.

PartTimeHunter
05-10-2017, 11:29 PM
Looks good Laverne. I restocked that short barrel Savage 20 Extreme with a Boyd's - made a huge difference. Will have to try to get down your way soon.

gtr
05-11-2017, 08:55 AM
Looks like its working well for you.

lclund1946
05-11-2017, 09:04 AM
Looks good Laverne. I restocked that short barrel Savage 20 Extreme with a Boyd's - made a huge difference. Will have to try to get down your way soon.

Will be interesting to find out how fast that H 4198 is pushing that 40 grain Remington bullet in that 18" barrel. If you get down when we get Greg's Lab Radar set up we can compare it with your MagnetoSpeed.

I did get your Jury 25", 8 Twist barrel to push the 55 Berger to 3120 fps over my Chrony running 21.8 grains of Varget and 3156 fpps with 22.2 grains of RL 15 which is slightly compressed in Lake city brass. The ladders were both quite similar to the ladder I just posted so will have to load up some to test in your rifle. Looks like 22.2 may be the magic number again. We can try the Lapua brass as well as it has the same capacity as the Lake City and fits well in your chamber.

PartTimeHunter
05-11-2017, 09:15 AM
Will be interesting to find out how fast that H 4198 is pushing that 40 grain Remington bullet in that 18" barrel. If you get down when we get Greg's Lab Radar set up we can compare it with your MagnetoSpeed.

Good idea. How long is he out for? I need to work up a load for 40 gr Berger as I scored a big box of them for a good price

lclund1946
05-11-2017, 09:20 AM
Good idea. How long is he out for? I need to work up a load for 40 gr Berger as I scored a big box of them for a good price

Hopefully he will be here for a few days next week. I have a good starting point with the 40 Berger and 8208 that could put you in the sweet spot at about 3700+ fps.

Groundhogger
05-12-2017, 10:14 AM
Need photos of these rifles guys. Been considering an oddball .20 for some time, would love to see the finished results..maybe even a ballpark $. PM is fine.

Gopher photos welcome too, naturally. :)

Curious if you guys are hoping for good results from say...32gr. V-Max or are you building on faster twist rates to shoot heavier stuff? They'd beat the wind better, but wouldn't have the same...blow-up-edy-ness. :)

tikka250
05-12-2017, 10:39 AM
Need photos of these rifles guys. Been considering an oddball .20 for some time, would love to see the finished results..maybe even a ballpark $. PM is fine.

Gopher photos welcome too, naturally. :)

Curious if you guys are hoping for good results from say...32gr. V-Max or are you building on faster twist rates to shoot heavier stuff? They'd beat the wind better, but wouldn't have the same...blow-up-edy-ness. :)

Dont worry about blow-up-edy-ness in a heavier bullet. I cant vouch for the bergers but i know my 40 gr vmax will still turn a gopher inside out at 500 yards.

lclund1946
05-12-2017, 12:11 PM
Need photos of these rifles guys. Been considering an oddball .20 for some time, would love to see the finished results..maybe even a ballpark $. PM is fine.

Gopher photos welcome too, naturally. :)

Curious if you guys are hoping for good results from say...32gr. V-Max or are you building on faster twist rates to shoot heavier stuff? They'd beat the wind better, but wouldn't have the same...blow-up-edy-ness. :)

Picture of CZ527, 20 EXTREME with Benchmark #5 contour 24" Barrel in 11" twist. The above mentioned rifle is exactly the same except with the Kreiger 25", 9" twist. barrel.

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/IMG_1097_zps7cye5ycd.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/IMG_1097_zps7cye5ycd.jpg.html)

I did the 9" twist barrel so I could run everything from 32-55 grain bullets. We have achieved great results over the years with 32/39BK 32/40 V-Max in 12", 11" and 9" twist barrels.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/32V-MaxMV4125.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/32V-MaxMV4125.jpg.html)

As Tikka 250 posted there is no problem with blow-up-edy-ness running 39/40 grain bullets, expecially in 11" or faster twist barrels.
Gophers 100 yards with 40 V-Max @ 3700 fps:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/second%20100%20yard%20gopher%20with%2040%20VMax_zp sjuxf8dja.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/second%20100%20yard%20gopher%20with%2040%20VMax_zp sjuxf8dja.jpg.html)[/IMG
[IMG]http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/40%20VMax%20100%20yds_zpsj5llf6bp.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/40%20VMax%20100%20yds_zpsj5llf6bp.jpg.html)

lclund1946
05-13-2017, 03:34 PM
Added picture:

I finally got to try my new 20 EXTREME that I had David Henry put together for me.
Specs: CZ 527 Kevlar; Kreiger SS, #5 contour, 25" barrel with 9" Twist.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/IMG_1127_zpsoju1cpep.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/IMG_1127_zpsoju1cpep.jpg.html)

I Got it near Zero with my 39 BlitzKing gopher load and found it easily shot this load under 1/2". May do better next time out as the weather is getting much more conducive to shooting gopher loads.

I had drawn it up with the 55 Berger seated to the lands and estimated it would up to 22.9 grains of Varget under the bullet seated in Remington Brass.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Scan_zpsikrofpvk.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Scan_zpsikrofpvk.jpg.html)

I did a ladder starting at 21.7 grains and going to 22.5 grains of Varget at which point my wife's ear told me that it was near full. I shot the following ladder target yesterday at about 15 Celsius. I did get my confidence up to shoot this off the bipod as I had just shot a 0.11", 4 shot group with my gopher load in my other new 20 EXTREME fitted with a 24" Benchmark barrel with 11"Twist.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Berger%2055%20Rem%20brass%20Varget_zpsdqsptxhm.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Berger%2055%20Rem%20brass%20Varget_zpsdqsptxhm.jpg .html)

Looks like I might find a good load with shots #4,5&6 grouping 0.06". I expect velocity to be 3125 to 3150 fps which is right in there with Berger's 204R loads.

Bigstone
05-13-2017, 04:08 PM
I shoot a 20 Tac part time with the 32 vmx and am curious about the brass life you are getting with 4100 fps loads?

PartTimeHunter
05-13-2017, 07:28 PM
I shoot a 20 Tac part time with the 32 vmx and am curious about the brass life you are getting with 4100 fps loads?

That was lcLund shooting those. I stick with 40 & 55 grain bullets for the most part, better for yotes. If I get out for gophers the little extra bullet weight won't hurt any more than the light ones. I can't imagine brass life would be any better than other cartridges going that fast. I tend to look for lower pressure loads, anywhere I find an accurate one not the fastest I can get. Though I see that was pretty accurate.

lclund1946
05-13-2017, 07:59 PM
I shoot a 20 Tac part time with the 32 vmx and am curious about the brass life you are getting with 4100 fps loads?

I have not shot the 4100 fps loads except in load development and have encouraged others to run the H 4198 load at 20.3 grains which I have chronographed at 4025 fps on a hot day and perhaps 75 fps on a cold day. This load had the lowest ES and SD in my tests and shoots good in all rifles tested. The 20.6 grain load that I posted shot the best in my rifle on a hot day and 20.9 shot the best on a cold day at about 4140fps. This load shot the best in my friends rechambered 204R in CZ527 that he just got a chance to test. I went safely to over 4200 fps with 20.8 grains of H4198 on a hot day and pressures were still good in my original PacNor barrel with 12 twist. I did a pressure ladder test to 20.8 grains of 4198in my 11" twist barrel, with the 32 V-Max and brass datum stretch and primer flow indicated that pressures should allow for nearly as much brass life as my 32 grain gopher loads at 3850 and 39/40 grain gopher loads at 3500 fps.

I dedicated 100 Winchester brass to my 39BK gopher load, with 21.4 grains of 8208 pushing around 3500 fps. After firing 8times and sizing I trimmed them just to even them up as trimming was not required. I reloaded them for the 10th time and just used 14 to sight in my newly Benchmark Barreled CZ527. I just measured the fired cases and they are slightly under trim length. Here are the last two groups fired while Zeroing the scope.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/Benchmark%20Barrel_zpsxds26ozx.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/Benchmark%20Barrel_zpsxds26ozx.jpg.html)
Got on Zero but did not manage to hold on for 5 or perhaps the breeze picked up:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/Benchmark%2039BK%20Gopher%20load_zpsyzdmngqb.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/Benchmark%2039BK%20Gopher%20load_zpsyzdmngqb.jpg.h tml)

Pictured is the 39 BK gopher load, loaded in 10Xsized win brass, and the brass measures the same as it did when newly formed:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/IMG_0989_zps0h7vrwex.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/IMG_0989_zps0h7vrwex.jpg.html)

Bigstone
05-14-2017, 09:34 AM
Thank you guys for the detailed reply. It's interesting that I shoot the TAC at only about 3900 or a hair less. You have good design with minimum taper.

I notice the 39 Sierra is used and wonder if you notice much of a difference between it and the 32 vmx for wind drift at 2-350 yd. Have never tried it.

I love crows to death [if possible] and there is no second shot at them. I just have a terrible time with wind, trajectory is no problem.

tikka250
05-14-2017, 09:49 AM
Thank you guys for the detailed reply. It's interesting that I shoot the TAC at only about 3900 or a hair less. You have good design with minimum taper.

I notice the 39 Sierra is used and wonder if you notice much of a difference between it and the 32 vmx for wind drift at 2-350 yd. Have never tried it.

I love crows to death [if possible] and there is no second shot at them. I just have a terrible time with wind, trajectory is no problem.

Im shooting the 20 practical which is quite close to your 20 tac and i shoot the 40 vmax and find that it has better performance on longer windier shots. The 40 vmax and 39bk have the highest BC of the 40 gr bullets and will be the best bang for your buck. Being such a tiny bullet it will be blown around no matter what but i find with the 40's it almost mirrors a 22-250 out to 400. Im sure lcund will reply with charts and data to back much of this up.

lclund1946
05-14-2017, 11:08 AM
Thank you guys for the detailed reply. It's interesting that I shoot the TAC at only about 3900 or a hair less. You have good design with minimum taper.

I notice the 39 Sierra is used and wonder if you notice much of a difference between it and the 32 vmx for wind drift at 2-350 yd. Have never tried it.

I love crows to death [if possible] and there is no second shot at them. I just have a terrible time with wind, trajectory is no problem.

My design has exactly the same taper and body dimensions as the parent 222 Rem brass as it comes out of the bag. It remains the same throughout its life if the pressures are kept low like the 39 BK load shown. I have 39BK/40V-Max/40 Nosler BT loads that run 3600-3700 fps that shoot the same and run pressures that run pressures like the 55 Berger shown on the ladder. Brass life may be reduced but only by a bit and they shoot every bit as good as the 39 BK load shown.
Here is one that shows the 40 V-Max at 3650, shot from a 12" twist barrel, compared to a 22-20 factory 40 V-Max load. It has very similar drop to 500 yards but runs 345 ft.lbs. energy compared to 280 ft.lbs. with the 22-250.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/Ballistics40V-Max3650.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/Ballistics40V-Max3650.jpg.html)
This picture shows a very low pressure load with the 40 V-Max at 3470 which has more drop at 500 yards but drifts less in the wind than the heavier 22-250 factory load shown in the upper right hand corner.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/Ballistics%2040%20V-Max%203470_zps0vv8tx2p.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/Ballistics%2040%20V-Max%203470_zps0vv8tx2p.jpg.html)

The only way you can compare how one bullet compares to another is get accurate velocities and compare terminal downrange ballistics using a ballistics chart or program. A light bullet, with high BC, can travel slower than a heavy bullet, with low BC, and buck the wind much better.

Bigstone
05-14-2017, 08:59 PM
Man, did you guys do a lot of work. Your Extreme is very impressive to say the least. I have the Sierra ballistics program and some others off the net so have an idea of the respective differences in bullets and speeds etc. But to get the feel for a round I need to shoot it a while. I have a 17 mk 4 I shoot at about 3600 and when I compare it to the tactical it falls behind noticeable. But my 17 Rem with 25 vmx seems about the same except not the wallop. Am going to give the 39 Sierra a try, they sure look good. Thanks again for all the help.

elkhunter11
05-14-2017, 09:24 PM
Man, did you guys do a lot of work. Your Extreme is very impressive to say the least. I have the Sierra ballistics program and some others off the net so have an idea of the respective differences in bullets and speeds etc. But to get the feel for a round I need to shoot it a while. I have a 17 mk 4 I shoot at about 3600 and when I compare it to the tactical it falls behind noticeable. But my 17 Rem with 25 vmx seems about the same except not the wallop. Am going to give the 39 Sierra a try, they sure look good. Thanks again for all the help.
I shoot the 39gr Blitzking in my 20tactical, and it works very well on coyotes. I shot coyotes to 370yards last winter, and the kills were very quick.

lclund1946
05-15-2017, 08:59 AM
Man, did you guys do a lot of work. Your Extreme is very impressive to say the least. I have the Sierra ballistics program and some others off the net so have an idea of the respective differences in bullets and speeds etc. But to get the feel for a round I need to shoot it a while. I have a 17 mk 4 I shoot at about 3600 and when I compare it to the tactical it falls behind noticeable. But my 17 Rem with 25 vmx seems about the same except not the wallop. Am going to give the 39 Sierra a try, they sure look good. Thanks again for all the help.

The 39BK will work great in your 20 Tac and you will safely get 3700+ fps using most any powder from Ramshot Exterminator/RL10X to IMR 8208/H 4895 for a better case fill.

I like the 9" twist barrel on the 20 EXTREME as it shoots everything well and the 55 Berger is a perfect fit. As the following printouts show the 55 Berger has it over the 22-250, to 500 yards, even at 3060 fps which is easy to do. I have gotten to 3340 but not safely and easy on brass but I got the 20 Practical to 3260 with the 55 berger and the EXTREME is not far behind. The 20 Practical will not do that and still fit in a standard 223 magazine. The 39/40 grain bullets fall far behind at 500 yards and the 55 Berger is likely more fur friendly at close ranges.
22-250:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20Practical/22-250%2055%20V-Max_zpsz5zgescf.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20Practical/22-250%2055%20V-Max_zpsz5zgescf.jpg.html)
55 Berger 3060:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20Practical/20%20EXT%2055%20Berg%203060_zpstmotvzxg.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20Practical/20%20EXT%2055%20Berg%203060_zpstmotvzxg.jpg.html)
55 Berger 3260:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20Practical/20%20EXT%2055%20Berg%203260_zpsotemixdc.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20Practical/20%20EXT%2055%20Berg%203260_zpsotemixdc.jpg.html)

260 Rem
05-15-2017, 10:51 AM
Anybody ever try a 10 shot group @ 300 with an Extreme... be nice to see how these fast / light bullets perform.

tikka250
05-15-2017, 12:26 PM
Anybody ever try a 10 shot group @ 300 with an Extreme... be nice to see how these fast / light bullets perform.

I have a 5 shot group at 400 but photobucket is being a pain. Im going to be at the range on wednesday and if the weather is nice i may be able to get 2 20practicals to do a 300 yard group.

tikka250
05-15-2017, 12:36 PM
http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag285/tikka250/20160528_194210_zpsb0nqn05n.jpg (http://s1371.photobucket.com/user/tikka250/media/20160528_194210_zpsb0nqn05n.jpg.html)

5 shot group at 418yards. The bottom 2 hits are actually 3 and the 5th shot was confirmed to have just nicked the top left nub on the steel.
This is a 20 practical. Bob jurry barrel 11 twist 40gr vmax at 3600fps shot prone off a rest.

260 Rem
05-15-2017, 05:09 PM
I'm wondering about the little ones under 40gr ... like if they would be OK for gophers at distance.

lclund1946
05-15-2017, 07:38 PM
I'm wondering about the little ones under 40gr ... like if they would be OK for gophers at distance.

I have killed many gophers the first and second year at distances up to 400 meters with the 32BK at about 3850. Head shots at 200 are a piece of cake with another load running 32 V-max bullets, at about the same speed, so gophers at 300to 400 yards are no problem. Best groups in first year load development with 20 EXTREME;
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/20EXTREMEBESTLOADS.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/20EXTREMEBESTLOADS.jpg.html)
Some 300 yard groups with 32 grain loads:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/300%20yards_zpsjjmmws9t.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/300%20yards_zpsjjmmws9t.jpg.html)

I have shot mostly 39/40 grain bullets and the two middle targets show what they can do at 300 yards with a couple of loads. Also shows 12 shot group at 100 yards with 4 different loads:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/DAyattheRange-1.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/DAyattheRange-1.jpg.html)

Three groups shot from bipod as fast as I could shoot, while adjusting for the wind, with 40 V-Max, 40 Nosler BT and 39 Bk shot at 300 meters. Likely 10 dead gophers with 14 shots.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/300Mtargets028_zpsb8e5d6ad.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/300Mtargets028_zpsb8e5d6ad.jpg.html)

200 yard gopher and his buddy who peeked his head up to check on him:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/20%20at%20200_zpsx94gqfcd.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/20%20at%20200_zpsx94gqfcd.jpg.html)
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/21%20at%20200_zpslf7ax4mq.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/21%20at%20200_zpslf7ax4mq.jpg.html)

260 Rem
05-15-2017, 08:07 PM
What I am interested in is a string of 10 to see what happens with a bit of barrel heat like one might have on a nice gopher day ... a kill ratio of 80% at that distance would need consistency in the 1/2 MOA range.

tikka250
05-15-2017, 09:30 PM
What I am interested in is a string of 10 to see what happens with a bit of barrel heat like one might have on a nice gopher day ... a kill ratio of 80% at that distance would need consistency in the 1/2 MOA range.

are you looking for just 32 gr bullets in that group or 40's? my 32gr load never made it past first round of load development because the 40s shoot so damn good.

260 Rem
05-15-2017, 09:47 PM
40's would be good ... whatever shoots best on a hot day. For myself, 300m is a looong way from a gopher.

tchardy1972
05-16-2017, 08:41 AM
I have shot 10 shot groups with mine at 300 and I can tell you that I saw no real problems that were caused by barrel heat. The wind on the other hand is a whole different story. Another observation I have made is my 9 twist barrel runs a little slower than most of lavernes loads from a 11 twist. Not sure if it's just this barrel or the faster twist but it is slower.

My 20 extreme makes a pile less heat than my buddies 204. I can shoot at least twice as many shots before I need to stop for a break in the gopher patch and the extra speed of the 204 hasn't helped him in terms of hit percentage.

lclund1946
05-16-2017, 09:42 AM
I have shot 10 shot groups with mine at 300 and I can tell you that I saw no real problems that were caused by barrel heat. The wind on the other hand is a whole different story. Another observation I have made is my 9 twist barrel runs a little slower than most of lavernes loads from a 11 twist. Not sure if it's just this barrel or the faster twist but it is slower.

My 20 extreme makes a pile less heat than my buddies 204. I can shoot at least twice as many shots before I need to stop for a break in the gopher patch and the extra speed of the 204 hasn't helped him in terms of hit percentage.

My good friend Greg gave me his new Lab Radar yesterday. I have about 24 loads, that shot well under 1/2MOA in my Pacnor and Kreiger 11" twist, and will be testing them in the new Benchmark 11" Twist. I will be using it to determine velocities in the new Kreiger 9" twist 25" barrel with the 55 Berger loads and my gopher loads. It is possible that some of my velocities may be a bit higher due to variations in my Chrony but I tried to do multiple velocities as much as I could and even take the lower in some instances. I do have about 60 loads that I have shot over the chronograph and printed sub 1/2" groups.The only way to make a fair comparison is to shoot over the same chronograph under the same conditions.

This 55 Berger load went over the Chrony at over 3200 fps. It is in Lake City brass with 22.1 grains of TAC which is more than the good load you are running. I would like the recipe for your load so I can test it in my new 9" twist Kreiger. I have a ladder set up with the 55 Berger, in Winchester brass and Rem 71/2 primers that run 8208 from 21.1 to a full case at 21.7 grains.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/VernXR100034_zps86dfcc01.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/VernXR100034_zps86dfcc01.jpg.html)

A friend on a ranch by Czar has told me that he can't heat the barrel up on his 20 EXTREME. I asked him "not even on a hot day in the sun" and his answer was "nope". I believe he only uses my 40 V-Max gopher load of 21.2 grains of 8208 doing about 3500 fps and I believe Tikka 250 can confirm that and that they use it to at least 500 yards. I have shot multiple gophers in the head at 300 yards, in one setting over the hood of my truck, without a miss, and have shot many 30 shot strings before switching when I ran two 20 EXTREMES. I had 9 different loads that I shot interchangeably in these two rifles.

tikka250
05-16-2017, 12:21 PM
A friend on a ranch by Czar has told me that he can't heat the barrel up on his 20 EXTREME. I asked him "not even on a hot day in the sun" and his answer was "nope". I believe he only uses my 40 V-Max gopher load of 21.2 grains of 8208 doing about 3500 fps and I believe Tikka 250 can confirm that and that they use it to at least 500 yards.

I can and will confirm that his 20 does not heat up but the barrel on that thing is at least an inch and a half thick so that is an extremely large contributing factor.

6.5x47 lapua
05-16-2017, 12:42 PM
I can and will confirm that his 20 does not heat up but the barrel on that thing is at least an inch and a half thick so that is an extremely large contributing factor.

is that the beautiful red beast?

tikka250
05-16-2017, 01:05 PM
is that the beautiful red beast?

It sure is. Makes mine look like a beat up savage axis haha.

lclund1946
05-16-2017, 03:28 PM
I can and will confirm that his 20 does not heat up but the barrel on that thing is at least an inch and a half thick so that is an extremely large contributing factor.

Sure lucky that it doesn't heat up as it would take forever to cool down:)
His barrel is a Kreiger MTU, 1.25 for 5" and 0.93 dia. at muzzle, so not sure what it measured at 24.5" finished length but weighs 7# or more with the 20 bore.

Last time I saw the rifle it was wearing the original XR-100 stock as the Red Robertson got cancelled. The new owners must have came through for him.

lclund1946
05-17-2017, 01:19 PM
Sure lucky that it doesn't heat up as it would take forever to cool down:)
His barrel is a Kreiger MTU, 1.25 for 5" and 0.93 dia. at muzzle, so not sure what it measured at 24.5" finished length but weighs 7# or more with the 20 bore.

Last time I saw the rifle it was wearing the original XR-100 stock as the Red Robertson got cancelled. The new owners must have came through for him.

Wow this is what I'm talking about!
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/16730615_1107553722724767_263751074070844121_n_zps dnaadjyz.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/16730615_1107553722724767_263751074070844121_n_zps dnaadjyz.jpg.html)

Robmcleod82
05-17-2017, 02:27 PM
My rifles got a bighorn varmint contour and it doesn't seem to get very hot but there is a fair bit of meat there with a 20 cal hole in the middle.

tikka250
05-17-2017, 07:08 PM
Ok here it is. A group for 260 rem. Shot at 300 meters with a 8kmh right to left wind. 40 vmax 3600fps 11 twist barrel was mildly warm after 10 shots. I will add that the far bottom shot was 100% my fault.

http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag285/tikka250/20170517_185857_zps3dt4plnw.jpg (http://s1371.photobucket.com/user/tikka250/media/20170517_185857_zps3dt4plnw.jpg.html)

260 Rem
05-17-2017, 07:56 PM
Thanks 250 ... years ago I shot 40 vmax from a 12 twist 223 pushed by 24 gr of H 322 and found them decent ...except in a bit of wind. I have come to prefer larger caliber.

tikka250
05-17-2017, 08:57 PM
Thanks 250 ... years ago I shot 40 vmax from a 12 twist 223 pushed by 24 gr of H 322 and found them decent ...except in a bit of wind. I have come to prefer larger caliber.

Yep this gun was a 223 and probably still would be if not for the fact that i cant spot my own hits/misses due to the recoil. With the 20 i get roughly 22-250 performance while still being able to be my own spotter.

lclund1946
05-18-2017, 10:24 AM
Thanks 250 ... years ago I shot 40 vmax from a 12 twist 223 pushed by 24 gr of H 322 and found them decent ...except in a bit of wind. I have come to prefer larger caliber.

As I posted before you have to use a ballistic calculator , with accurate input, to compare one bullet to another regardless of weight or caliber. You may prefer a larger caliber but that does not mean you will have an advantage over a smaller caliber.

For a few years I shot gophers with a Speer 50 TNT running at about 3260 fps. In a slight breeze, with a $250.00 Hawke scope SR12 reticle, my 223 Rem SPS did about 70% on gopher silhouettes to 400 Meters. At that time I also ran a Speer 110 TNT to 3250-3300 fps in my 700V and shot a few gophers, at that range with it as it shot 1/4 MOA groups. Your 223 with the 40 V-Max was traveling about 3350, according to Hodgdon's data, so at 300M your drift would have been about 8.6" in a 5 mph wind and you would have needed 4.5 MOA elevation adjustment from a 100 yard Zero. My 50 TNT load had the same drop but blew about 7.75" in the same wind. My 110 TNT required 3.8 MOA and drifted 5.11" in a 5mph wind.

When I discovered that the 20 caliber 40 V-Max bullet only needed to be traveling 3470 fps to run a similar trajectory, with less wind drift than a similar 55 grain factory load in 22-250 I began my 20 EXTREME design to meet that parameter. It soon became apparent that this could be done using less than 22 grains of powder and exceeded using just over 22 grains. Actually 22.2 grains seems to be the magic number which is fitting for the Parent 222 case and pushes the 40 V-max to 3700 fps with at least one load and I am working on another. The 40 V-Max at Tikka 250's load, pushing 3600 fps, needs only 3.2 MOA adjustment to 300 Meters and drifts 5.75" in a 5 mph cross wind. this is close to 3" less than your 223 load and not even 3/4" less than the 110 TNT in .284. At 3700 fps the 40 V-Max only needs 3 Moa to 300 M and drifts even less at 5.11". If you look at the target I posted earlier on this thread you will see that I used 2 3/4 MOA adjustment when I shot the 40 V-Madx at the same 300M target Tikka 250 used. Another 1/4MOA would have put me right on so I must assume that the bullet was traveling very close to 3700 fps and with only 22.2 grains of IMR 8208 which is a full case. Once I adjusted for the wind I got my 4 remaining test bullets into .265MOA. If you think that you could do better I suggest you go down to the Nose Hill range and give it a try, with any caliber you choose, shooting from the bipod. Tikka 250 may arrange to host you, as a guest, which is free unless they changed the rules since I left.

260 Rem
05-18-2017, 10:52 AM
IC .... I'm sure you are well aware that not many, certainly not me..can do 1/4 MOA at 300m on demand with any caliber....or that cherry picking a few shots out of a single group, is in any way representative.
Without confirming with a look at national / international BR results, I would guess that 6mm rigs are among the most capable out to 600 yds?
EDIT: Just took a look at last years International BR Shooters 300 yd "score" results at their Nationals which would be the closest game to hitting a gopher at that distance and the list looks like someone typed 30BR and hit "ditto" for the first 20 or so top places.

lclund1946
05-18-2017, 11:42 AM
IC .... I'm sure you are well aware that not many, certainly not me..can do 1/4 MOA at 300m on demand with any caliber....or that cherry picking a few shots out of a single group, is in any way representative.
Without confirming with a look at national / international BR results, I would guess that 6mm rigs are among the most capable out to 600 yds?
EDIT: Just took a look at last years International BR Shooters 300 yd "score" results at their Nationals which would be the closest game to hitting a gopher at that distance and the list looks like someone typed 30BR and hit "ditto" for the first 20 or so top places.

I posted a number of 300 yard targets that were well under 1/2MOA and assure you that barrel heat did not stop me from shooting more as I deemed 5 shot groups sufficient for my varmint rifles. I really don't know why you think that I cherry picked these three groups as they were shot on the same target one after the other like I said and even BR shooters get to shoot sighters although they apparently have to shoot at the S target. I was field testing these three loads to see if I would have to adjust my elevation estimates. I had already confirmed that they were capable of 1/4MOA groups at 100 yards and were shooting nearly in the same hole. Three groups shot from bipod as fast as I could shoot, while adjusting for the wind, with 40 V-Max, 40 Nosler BT and 39 Bk shot at 300 meters. Likely 10 dead gophers with 14 shots.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/300Mtargets028_zpsb8e5d6ad.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/300Mtargets028_zpsb8e5d6ad.jpg.html)

I really do not like to compare myself to BR shooters as they likely do not have any more than 1 or two loads and would likely do very poorly, off the bipod, in the gopher patch. I likely have over 50 loads that I have shot 1/2 MOA with on more than one occasion. As I said before perhaps the 20 EXTREME would be a contender in 300 yard BR, especially with how it handles the 55 Berger.

HW223
05-18-2017, 12:51 PM
I really do not like to compare myself to BR shooters as they likely do not have any more than 1 or two loads and would likely do very poorly, off the bipod, in the gopher patch. I likely have over 50 loads that I have shot 1/2 MOA with on more than one occasion. As I said before perhaps the 20 EXTREME would be a contender in 300 yard BR, especially with how it handles the 55 Berger.[/QUOTE]

Your misinformed about br and based on your photos of the groups above it would not be a contender

lclund1946
05-18-2017, 01:28 PM
I really do not like to compare myself to BR shooters as they likely do not have any more than 1 or two loads and would likely do very poorly, off the bipod, in the gopher patch. I likely have over 50 loads that I have shot 1/2 MOA with on more than one occasion. As I said before perhaps the 20 EXTREME would be a contender in 300 yard BR, especially with how it handles the 55 Berger.

Your misinformed about br and based on your photos of the groups above it would not be a contender[/QUOTE]

It never seems to amaze me how BR always seems to come up when I post targets that I have shot with my 20 EXTREME gopher guns. It is apparent that 260Rem does not think that us gopher shooters are capable of shooting these kind of groups especially with 20 caliber bullets. My attempts to show him that the "Old Wives Tale" about light bullets being blown about more than heavy bullets should have been dead a long time ago seem to have been in vain.

And as far as you knowing anything about my 20 EXTREME being a potential contender you have no idea. I would really appreciate it if you would keep your comments to yourself on this, or any other thread, that I start. On second thought take your BR rifle down to the Nose Hill Range and post the groups that you shoot at 300M here (make sure you use a bipod). Tikka 250 does very well under the windy conditions there and I am sure that he would give you some pointers. Unfortunately I will not be able to join you.

duceman
05-18-2017, 02:28 PM
Your misinformed about br and based on your photos of the groups above it would not be a contender

It never seems to amaze me how BR always seems to come up when I post targets that I have shot with my 20 EXTREME gopher guns. It is apparent that 260Rem does not think that us gopher shooters are capable of shooting these kind of groups especially with 20 caliber bullets. My attempts to show him that the "Old Wives Tale" about light bullets being blown about more than heavy bullets should have been dead a long time ago seem to have been in vain.

And as far as you knowing anything about my 20 EXTREME being a potential contender you have no idea. I would really appreciate it if you would keep your comments to yourself on this, or any other thread, that I start. On second thought take your BR rifle down to the Nose Hill Range and post the groups that you shoot at 300M here (make sure you use a bipod). Tikka 250 does very well under the windy conditions there and I am sure that he would give you some pointers. Unfortunately I will not be able to join you.[/QUOTE]

it'll never happen laverne; 300 too far srbr guys around here. like asking them to shoot a 'score' br match; you can't machine gun there through a condition.

lclund1946
05-18-2017, 02:56 PM
It never seems to amaze me how BR always seems to come up when I post targets that I have shot with my 20 EXTREME gopher guns. It is apparent that 260Rem does not think that us gopher shooters are capable of shooting these kind of groups especially with 20 caliber bullets. My attempts to show him that the "Old Wives Tale" about light bullets being blown about more than heavy bullets should have been dead a long time ago seem to have been in vain.

And as far as you knowing anything about my 20 EXTREME being a potential contender you have no idea. I would really appreciate it if you would keep your comments to yourself on this, or any other thread, that I start. On second thought take your BR rifle down to the Nose Hill Range and post the groups that you shoot at 300M here (make sure you use a bipod). Tikka 250 does very well under the windy conditions there and I am sure that he would give you some pointers. Unfortunately I will not be able to join you.

it'll never happen laverne; 300 too far srbr guys around here. like asking them to shoot a 'score' br match; you can't machine gun there through a condition.[/QUOTE]

It seems to me that you tried to tell me that before Lee. I just kind of "snicker" when one of my best friends, who learned a lot form a guy named Al Murdoch, tells me about the advantage of a 30 Caliber bullet when shooting score. Seems that they don't have to shoot such a small group as long as they cut the ring somewhere. I prefer to shoot small groups even if they are just 0.500" outside of the 10 ring as they will kill a gopher.

I guess it got my dander up:sign0176: when 260Rem suggested that I cherry pick my targets. In fact I don't have more than one 300+ yard target shot, with any one load, as I only shoot at distance to confirm that my ballistics program is on or if I need a slight correction like the 1/4MOA on the posted 40V-Max target. I re-confirm my load on gophers as I am not a target shooter unless I change powder lots then 100 yards will do as long as the velocity is the same.

On a lighter note triple-duce seems to be written all over the 20 EXTREME as I use a triple-duce case, my high node with 8208 and40 grain bullets is reached at 22.2 grains and It looks like the 55 Berger likes 22.2 grains of Varget with the bullet seated 10thou off the lands at COL 2.22" :).

260 Rem
05-18-2017, 02:58 PM
When I look at the last three groups posted, two look to be at least 1 MOA and the 4 shot group is maybe 3/4 MOA...am I reading these wrong?

tikka250
05-18-2017, 03:27 PM
This is why i went with my 20 practical. I dont give a crap what my gun does on paper i dont care about BR shooters or the science involved in load development or brass life. I just want MY 1 load that blows up gophers at the distance i want which to me meant reaching 3500fps+ safely. If 260 likes to shoot a 223 more power to him heck i dont care if he comes out gopher shooting with grandpas old 30 30 as long as he has fun with it.

lclund1946
05-18-2017, 03:34 PM
When I look at the last three groups posted, two look to be at least 1 MOA and the 4 shot group is maybe 3/4 MOA...am I reading these wrong?

The groups were shot at 300 Meters. The top target was with the 40 V-Max and I had 5 test loads. The first shot was 2.34" to the left which determine the windage. I slightly overcorrected for the wind so the next 4 shots were a bit right but the group measured .910" which I believe is .265 MOA. I was up 2 2/4MOA, from a 100 m meter Zero, and a bit low so I knew I had to go to 3MOA to be right on in elevation. Even more important was the fact that vertical was about 3/4 of an inch, which is under 1/4MOA, and a good indication that this load likely has a low ES & SD which is what long range shooters look for. This come up also indicates that my bullet was traveling very close to 3700 fps.

I only had 4 Nosler BT rounds but managed to get three, after correcting for the wind, into .24 MOA. A bit more vertical and required another 1/4MOA vertical adjustment which shas it running very close to the 40 V_Max.

The wind got more gusty so had a bit more trouble with the 39 BK load which normally shoots the best of the three and likely over compensated for elevation. Still managed to get 3 into .24MOA where they would likely all have been if the wind was not a factor which almost never happens at Nose Hill.

260 Rem
05-18-2017, 03:48 PM
I like simple. Shoot 5 consecutive (5 shot) groups on a single target panel. No explanation required regarding sighters or wind, every hole counts. Frankly, from what I've seen to this point a clunky old 30BR shooting a short FB 115Ber that has ballistics just a bit better than a round ball, would leave fewer gophers on the prairie than the Extreme.

260 Rem
05-18-2017, 03:53 PM
Here are some ten shot groups at 300M with a clunky old 30BR.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170518/54eec44c699897030209211b6c2a6b04.jpg

HW223
05-18-2017, 03:59 PM
Your misinformed about br and based on your photos of the groups above it would not be a contender

It never seems to amaze me how BR always seems to come up when I post targets that I have shot with my 20 EXTREME gopher guns. It is apparent that 260Rem does not think that us gopher shooters are capable of shooting these kind of groups especially with 20 caliber bullets. My attempts to show him that the "Old Wives Tale" about light bullets being blown about more than heavy bullets should have been dead a long time ago seem to have been in vain.

And as far as you knowing anything about my 20 EXTREME being a potential contender you have no idea. I would really appreciate it if you would keep your comments to yourself on this, or any other thread, that I start. On second thought take your BR rifle down to the Nose Hill Range and post the groups that you shoot at 300M here (make sure you use a bipod). Tikka 250 does very well under the windy conditions there and I am sure that he would give you some pointers. Unfortunately I will not be able to join you.[/QUOTE]

The reason it comes up is because you call a 3/4-1 moa group on target a .25 moa then profess that it would be a contender in sbr , if you won't falsely claim your gun is a Contender , I won't call you on it , as far as I know there has never been one registered in a match anywhere and has never won anything anywhere

Did you hear anyone claim a 6PPC would make a good gopher round ?
June 10-11 is a sanctioned unlimited shoot , why don't you two bring what ever you like down and put in on the line and show the br shooters how it's done ,
FYI there are a few 300 yard matches around , just not local because the range terrain will not accommodate flags between 200-300,simple solution to your stray shots is go shoot some more groups and get rid of the fliers , unfortunately they count them all.
I think Duceman has been threatening to come to a sanctioned match now and then but it seems something always comes up, funny how that goes , I believe he said it was to easy to shoot short range group.my groups are posted in match results on nbrsa , you can see them there , the good and the bad ,no cherry picking in the real world ,

Sorry for the derail , just don't like guys spreading dis information

Your 20 seems like an interesting gopher round , have fun with it

lclund1946
05-18-2017, 04:23 PM
I like simple. Shoot 5 consecutive (5 shot) groups on a single target panel. No explanation required regarding sighters or wind, every hole counts. Frankly, from what I've seen to this point a clunky old 30BR shooting a short FB 115Ber that has ballistics just a bit better than a round ball, would leave fewer gophers on the prairie than the Extreme.

It would appear that you didn't look at the 5 shot targets that I did post and it is clear now that you were not really interested in how the 20 caliber bullets performed as you asked. I tried to explain that I am just testing my loads to confirm elevation and windage but apparently you are only interested in trying to perpetuate the heavy bullet versus light bullet myth.

Like Tikka 250 I could give a rats ass about 10 shot groups on paper, or what Br shooters do, when I can put the hurt on hundreds of gophers. Take your BR out and have fun. I will continue to do load workup on my 20 EXTREME, as it gives me something to do, and post it on this forum.

tchardy1972
05-18-2017, 04:55 PM
Here are some ten shot groups at 300M with a clunky old 30BR.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170518/54eec44c699897030209211b6c2a6b04.jpg

Speaking of cherry picking groups....

RAMPAGE
05-18-2017, 05:06 PM
Speaking of cherry picking groups....

LOL ain't that the truth

duceman
05-18-2017, 05:32 PM
It never seems to amaze me how BR always seems to come up when I post targets that I have shot with my 20 EXTREME gopher guns. It is apparent that 260Rem does not think that us gopher shooters are capable of shooting these kind of groups especially with 20 caliber bullets. My attempts to show him that the "Old Wives Tale" about light bullets being blown about more than heavy bullets should have been dead a long time ago seem to have been in vain.

And as far as you knowing anything about my 20 EXTREME being a potential contender you have no idea. I would really appreciate it if you would keep your comments to yourself on this, or any other thread, that I start. On second thought take your BR rifle down to the Nose Hill Range and post the groups that you shoot at 300M here (make sure you use a bipod). Tikka 250 does very well under the windy conditions there and I am sure that he would give you some pointers. Unfortunately I will not be able to join you.

The reason it comes up is because you call a 3/4-1 moa group on target a .25 moa then profess that it would be a contender in sbr , if you won't falsely claim your gun is a Contender , I won't call you on it , as far as I know there has never been one registered in a match anywhere and has never won anything anywhere

Did you hear anyone claim a 6PPC would make a good gopher round ?
June 10-11 is a sanctioned unlimited shoot , why don't you two bring what ever you like down and put in on the line and show the br shooters how it's done ,
FYI there are a few 300 yard matches around , just not local because the range terrain will not accommodate flags between 200-300,simple solution to your stray shots is go shoot some more groups and get rid of the fliers , unfortunately they count them all.
I think Duceman has been threatening to come to a sanctioned match now and then but it seems something always comes up, funny how that goes , I believe he said it was to easy to shoot short range group.my groups are posted in match results on nbrsa , you can see them there , the good and the bad ,no cherry picking in the real world ,

Sorry for the derail , just don't like guys spreading dis information

Your 20 seems like an interesting gopher round , have fun with it[/QUOTE]

i guess i've made as many cripple distance shoots as you have 300m score shoots, one of which is held on your home range.
dan opel and bob richards seem to be able to 'lower' themselves to hang out and shoot with us wanna-be's. it was fun losing to bob by two points in the open and by one point in the grand ag last year, but to be fair, he was in a hurry to get away that day, and we blasted out our last two targets in one sitting so he could make a previous appointment, or he may have done better at 300.
br is off the radar for me this year, concentrating on silhouette and getting my name on 2 rifle rodeo anniversary trophies, which i intend on shooting offhand.
the stampede shoot out has my interest peaked; if it doesn't conflict with another shoot i'll drag the old shool 6x47 up and take in your clinic at 100yds.

260 Rem
05-18-2017, 05:33 PM
The ten shot groups I posted are decent. I am not a competitive shooter and shoot very little at 300m so what you see is among the best of that small sample. I can't think of too many that post their largest groups? Best way to earn critic status is to show your chops ...good or bad. Otherwise, you're just a spectator? LOL
The cherry picking I referred to was the practice of measuring just 3 or 4 shots from a group.

HW223
05-18-2017, 05:54 PM
i guess i've made as many cripple distance shoots as you have 300m score shoots, one of which is held on your home range.
dan opel and bob richards seem to be able to 'lower' themselves to hang out and shoot with us wanna-be's. it was fun losing to bob by two points in the open and by one point in the grand ag last year, but to be fair, he was in a hurry to get away that day, and we blasted out our last two targets in one sitting so he could make a previous appointment, or he may have done better at 300.
br is off the radar for me this year, concentrating on silhouette and getting my name on 2 rifle rodeo anniversary trophies, which i intend on shooting offhand.
the stampede shoot out has my interest peaked; if it doesn't conflict with another shoot i'll drag the old shool 6x47 up and take in your clinic at 100yds.[/QUOTE]

News flash , you still have not shot a score shoot at rosebud , the Clive Moen is not even close to a real score shoot , it's a fun shoot with score targets , some times they use the 300 targets at 200 depending on the field of shooters ,
Good luck to you in silhouette and the rodeos

duceman
05-18-2017, 06:13 PM
i guess i've made as many cripple distance shoots as you have 300m score shoots, one of which is held on your home range.
dan opel and bob richards seem to be able to 'lower' themselves to hang out and shoot with us wanna-be's. it was fun losing to bob by two points in the open and by one point in the grand ag last year, but to be fair, he was in a hurry to get away that day, and we blasted out our last two targets in one sitting so he could make a previous appointment, or he may have done better at 300.
br is off the radar for me this year, concentrating on silhouette and getting my name on 2 rifle rodeo anniversary trophies, which i intend on shooting offhand.
the stampede shoot out has my interest peaked; if it doesn't conflict with another shoot i'll drag the old shool 6x47 up and take in your clinic at 100yds.

News flash , you still have not shot a score shoot at rosebud , the Clive Moen is not even close to a real score shoot , it's a fun shoot with score targets , some times they use the 300 targets at 200 depending on the field of shooters ,
Good luck to you in silhouette and the rodeos[/QUOTE]

or not,but i guess you wouldn't know; since you weren't there. dan did a great job getting the proper targets for this one.
for the record, it's ok to have fun and not be a condescending dick.

HW223
05-18-2017, 07:03 PM
News flash , you still have not shot a score shoot at rosebud , the Clive Moen is not even close to a real score shoot , it's a fun shoot with score targets , some times they use the 300 targets at 200 depending on the field of shooters ,
Good luck to you in silhouette and the rodeos

or not,but i guess you wouldn't know; since you weren't there. dan did a great job getting the proper targets for this one.
for the record, it's ok to have fun and not be a condescending dick.[/QUOTE]

Not trying to be condescending , just tired of you guys Acting like an authority on something you have never competed in and have no clue about ,
I have nothing but respect for Any and all that compete in any discipline , because it's difficult to compete at the highest level of them all , I keep my comments to the discipline I compete in, I don't make comments like "cripple distances" about something I've never shot , wouldn't look good for you to finish way down the list in an easy cripple distance shoot , would it
Fun shoots are a great sociial and I applaud you for attending , just don't make them out to be more than what they are , fun shoots

Robmcleod82
05-18-2017, 07:23 PM
I like simple. Shoot 5 consecutive (5 shot) groups on a single target panel. No explanation required regarding sighters or wind, every hole counts. Frankly, from what I've seen to this point a clunky old 30BR shooting a short FB 115Ber that has ballistics just a bit better than a round ball, would leave fewer gophers on the prairie than the Extreme.

Should I mail you my 20 extreme for a test drive?

duceman
05-18-2017, 07:26 PM
here's my final word on another totally derailed thread by hugh.
i shoot to have fun, period. be it srbr (although i'm just a faker), silhouette, f-class, rifle rodeo, or 600- 1000yd br ( that probly scared you straight), or bloody gophers.
i find it curious that srbr matches in canada are called a huge success when 12 -15 shooters show up at a sanctioned match. mission had a stellar turnout a couple weeks back with around 25?
yet the 'fun' matches i attend routinely have 20-75 shooters, and often several juniors. i wonder why that is? i have an idea of the response to this question, but i'll let the expert enlighten us.

i suspect your attitude is due largely to the fact that srbr has gone as far as it can ever go; and he with the most spare time , $$, and an 'on' day wins.

it must be terrible to spend all that time and $$ and not have fun anymore.

gitrdun
05-18-2017, 07:34 PM
:party0052:

HW223
05-18-2017, 07:43 PM
here's my final word on another totally derailed thread by hugh.
i shoot to have fun, period. be it srbr (although i'm just a faker), silhouette, f-class, rifle rodeo, or 600- 1000yd br ( that probly scared you straight), or bloody gophers.
i find it curious that srbr matches in canada are called a huge success when 12 -15 shooters show up at a sanctioned match. mission had a stellar turnout a couple weeks back with around 25?
yet the 'fun' matches i attend routinely have 20-75 shooters, and often several juniors. i wonder why that is? i have an idea of the response to this question, but i'll let the expert enlighten us.

i suspect your attitude is due largely to the fact that srbr has gone as far as it can ever go; and he with the most spare time , $$, and an 'on' day wins.

it must be terrible to spend all that time and $$ and not have fun anymore.
Once again you make a comment about sbr with no real basis to back it up ,I don't get involved in the thread until you guys start making ludicrous statements about what works in sbr , then some poor guy shows up at a real shoot with that stuff and gets beat to death , never to return , when if he had stuff that would get him on the playing field he could have done alright , your the idiots that are bad for br with all your br myth's , that's why I take it personal , I'm headed to the super shoot tomorrow , 250 of the best in the world registered so far , wanna come ? I bet not
As I said good luck with your shooting in what ever you choose to do

purgatory.sv
05-18-2017, 09:33 PM
:):):):party0052:

260 Rem
05-19-2017, 06:28 AM
Should I mail you my 20 extreme for a test drive?
Thanks for the offer but I have a friend that tinkers with wildcats that keeps me distracted.

duceman
05-19-2017, 06:46 AM
Once again you make a comment about sbr with no real basis to back it up ,I don't get involved in the thread until you guys start making ludicrous statements about what works in sbr , then some poor guy shows up at a real shoot with that stuff and gets beat to death , never to return , when if he had stuff that would get him on the playing field he could have done alright , your the idiots that are bad for br with all your br myth's , that's why I take it personal , I'm headed to the super shoot tomorrow , 250 of the best in the world registered so far , wanna come ? I bet not
As I said good luck with your shooting in what ever you choose to do

good luck at the super shoot, don't forget the sunscreen!

lclund1946
05-19-2017, 11:03 AM
Here are some ten shot groups at 300M with a clunky old 30BR.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170518/54eec44c699897030209211b6c2a6b04.jpg

You really have nothing to be ashamed about with those groups from a clunky old BR. In fact I am happy to see how well you are doing with it. I imagine that it runs a heavy barrel although it shouldn't need one as 30 BR, like the 20 EXTREME does not likely generate a lot of heat. I was really surprised when working up loads for a friends 35 Remington with 225 grain bullets in a pencil barreled Remington Mohawk. Got around 1950 fps and barrel heat was very little.

In fact the Berger 115 bullet does very well at 3050 which seems about max from what I can find. It actually only drifts about 4.97" in a 5 mph wind and only needs 3.9 MOA to 300 yards. This is about 1/2" less than the 40 V-Max at 3700 fps although you need a bit more elevation. The biggest drawback I see to the 30 BR in the gopher patch is the 35+ grains of powder and the 2375 muzzle energy that will develop a lot more recoil than the 40 V_Max. However the 55 Berger load that shows promise, in the ladder I posted on this thread, will likely travel over 3050 (perhaps 3150 faster) not only shoots flatter than the 115 Berger but drifts over an inch less than the 115 Berger. As well muzzle energy is less than 1/2 as will be felt recoil.

While I am happy that you are having fun, with whatever you shoot, I am not happy that you obviously posted here to derail this thread rather than learn about 20 calibers in the field. I did not post to put down your 30 BR but it is apparent that you posted as you believe it is superior because of the heavier bullet and it's popularity in 300 yard BR (may have been a 20 EXTREME in the top 20 if one had been entered). While it may deek out the 32/40 grain bullets in wind drift at 300 yards it falls a bit short of the 55 Berger. I really don't think that the small amount of wind drift is important as wind conditions change but recoil is another matter. In fact I take advantage of the situation and try to get the wind in my back or face when shooting gophers.

As far as me cherry picking targets I guess you don't accept my way of doing things which is fine. However I do have a few 300 yard targets that are less than 1/2 MOA and many 100 yard targets that show potential for the same.
Low node 39BK gopher load at about 3500 fps which seems to stack in every rifle I tried them in. And yes it is a five shot, .27 MOA group with no cherry picking:
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/RemWinBrassIMR8208XBR-1-1-1.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/RemWinBrassIMR8208XBR-1-1-1.jpg.html)

Top target 12 shots with 4 different loads at 100 yards. Bottom target proved the top load in this target. Shot with 40 V-Max in Remington Brass and yes 5 shots in .193MOA.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/DAyattheRange-1-1.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/DAyattheRange-1-1.jpg.html)

Ladder with RL 7 showing 21 consecutive shots with a light varmint. Although it showed great potential I did not promote RL7 due to its unstable temperature and lot to lot variations. That does not mean that 20.0-20.3 grains would be unsafe and Greg is working up a load in his rechambered 204R as he had a big can of it.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME/RL732V-Max.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME/RL732V-Max.jpg.html)

I will post the results with the 55 Berger, in my new 9" twist varmint rifle. I will not likely be able to get past 100 yards unless I get some help so 100 yards may have to do.

260 Rem
05-19-2017, 01:09 PM
Ic - I am not a heavy barrel fan so have very few....in 30BR I have several Kreiger #2/3's all the way up to Light Palma which are pretty wimpy when compared with LV's. Do have one LV in 6 Dasher, but again, most are on the skinny side. No doubt the heavy barrels take longer to heat up, but the skinnys will also shoot well when they get warm. Over past few years, I have had several of the heavier barrels turned down and most shoot pretty decent.

lclund1946
05-19-2017, 02:31 PM
Ic - I am not a heavy barrel fan so have very few....in 30BR I have several Kreiger #2/3's all the way up to Light Palma which are pretty wimpy when compared with LV's. Do have one LV in 6 Dasher, but again, most are on the skinny side. No doubt the heavy barrels take longer to heat up, but the skinnys will also shoot well when they get warm. Over past few years, I have had several of the heavier barrels turned down and most shoot pretty decent.

I agree that light barrels shoot well when they get warm as long as they don't get too hot. In fact the 40 V-Max gopher load I had in my 20 Practical and the 40 V-Max gopher load for my 20 EXTREME shoot bug hole groups under sustained fire on a hot day. I had 15 rounds left for the Practical last fall and planned on selling the rifle. The Range Secretary watched me shoot a 15 shot group and witnessed the group starting at about 1" and shrinking to about 1/3" for the last five shots as the barrel warmed up.

When I talk about LV in My original CZ527 EXTREME I am talking 1" at the shank tapering to 0.63" at the muzzle so about like a #4 contour. I have gone to a #5 contour, which is very similar to the CZ varmint contour, in the rifles pictured. But of course they are a bit heavier than a #5 contour in 30 caliber. I am getting too feeble to handle anything heavier and my wife complains when she has to help me with these.

260 Rem
05-19-2017, 03:44 PM
AHH The LV I was thinking about was Kreiger which is probably over 6lbs. Seems as long as the skinny contours are properly stress relieved, they do not wander much with a bit of heat.

lclund1946
05-19-2017, 04:20 PM
AHH The LV I was thinking about was Kreiger which is probably over 6lbs. Seems as long as the skinny contours are properly stress relieved, they do not wander much with a bit of heat.

Exactly.

lclund1946
06-15-2017, 08:14 PM
I finally got to try my new 20 EXTREME that I had David Henry put together for me.
Specs: CZ 527 Kevlar; Kreiger SS, #5 contour, 25" barrel with 9" Twist.

I Got it near Zero with my 39 BlitzKing gopher load and found it easily shot this load under 1/2". May do better next time out as the weather is getting much more conducive to shooting gopher loads.

I had drawn it up with the 55 Berger seated to the lands and estimated it would up to 22.9 grains of Varget under the bullet seated in Remington Brass.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Scan_zpsikrofpvk.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Scan_zpsikrofpvk.jpg.html)

I did a ladder starting at 21.7 grains and going to 22.5 grains of Varget at which point my wife's ear told me that it was near full. I shot the following ladder target yesterday at about 15 Celsius. I did get my confidence up to shoot this off the bipod as I had just shot a 0.11", 4 shot group with my gopher load in my other new 20 EXTREME fitted with a 24" Benchmark barrel with 11"Twist.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Berger%2055%20Rem%20brass%20Varget_zpsdqsptxhm.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Berger%2055%20Rem%20brass%20Varget_zpsdqsptxhm.jpg .html)

Looks like I might find a good load with shots #4,5&6 grouping 0.06". I expect velocity to be 3125 to 3150 fps which is right in there with Berger's 204R loads.

I finally got to try the 55 Berger loads that showed promise on my initial pressure /accuracy ladder. I didn't quite get the 1/4 MOA group that I was hoping for as I had a flier on the 22.2 grain load before putting 4 into 0.222". Perhaps next time, when I shoot for accuracy I will get it right. I was a bit low on my initial velocity estimates as this load flew across the Lab Radar at 3223 fps. The temperature was at 22.2 Celsius which likely helped as I tested it initially at 14 Celsius.

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Varget%2022.2%20grains%2055%20Berg_zpsc8dhmfvc.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Varget%2022.2%20grains%2055%20Berg_zpsc8dhmfvc.jpg .html)

I shot these three groups just before the 22.2 grain load so was a 20 shot string.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Varget%2055%20Berg_zps6bgfcrnc.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Varget%2055%20Berg_zps6bgfcrnc.jpg.html)

lclund1946
07-08-2017, 04:06 PM
I finally got to try the 55 Berger loads that showed promise on my initial pressure /accuracy ladder. I didn't quite get the 1/4 MOA group that I was hoping for as I had a flier on the 22.2 grain load before putting 4 into 0.222". Perhaps next time, when I shoot for accuracy I will get it right. I was a bit low on my initial velocity estimates as this load flew across the Lab Radar at 3223 fps. The temperature was at 22.2 Celsius which likely helped as I tested it initially at 14 Celsius.

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Varget%2022.2%20grains%2055%20Berg_zpsc8dhmfvc.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Varget%2022.2%20grains%2055%20Berg_zpsc8dhmfvc.jpg .html)

I shot these three groups just before the 22.2 grain load so was a 20 shot string.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Varget%2055%20Berg_zps6bgfcrnc.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Varget%2055%20Berg_zps6bgfcrnc.jpg.html)

Got a chance to chronograph my 39 grain BK gopher load in the Kreiger 25", 9" twist barrel. The Lab Radar confirmed that this load shoots 3500 fps, on average, as did my Chrony. This load has shot this good or better in all of the 20 Extreme rifles I have shot it in.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/39%20BK%20gopher%20Load_zps5q849262.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/39%20BK%20gopher%20Load_zps5q849262.jpg.html)

lclund1946
10-06-2017, 11:57 AM
Got a chance to chronograph my 39 grain BK gopher load in the Kreiger 25", 9" twist barrel. The Lab Radar confirmed that this load shoots 3500 fps, on average, as did my Chrony. This load has shot this good or better in all of the 20 Extreme rifles I have shot it in.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/39%20BK%20gopher%20Load_zps5q849262.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/39%20BK%20gopher%20Load_zps5q849262.jpg.html)

Decided to try the 55 Berger Long Range BT Varmint loads with Varget to see if I could better my groups and perhaps get that elusive 1/4" group with 5 shots at 100 yards. Got close and a bit better than last time with final slighter group getting 4 into 0.2" and a flier making it a .39" group. Will have to get a proper front rest or wait until the wind dies right off.

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Varget%2022.2%2055%20Berg%2018%20Celsius_zpstz3dkr ci.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Varget%2022.2%2055%20Berg%2018%20Celsius_zpstz3dkr ci.jpg.html)

I may not be getting the elusive 1/4 " group but these loads are running really consistent as far as ES and SD and would be outstanding on coyotes to 500 yards in the field. When you consider that this is a CZ 527 Light Varmint I believe that I have the ultimate coyote rig with the 55 Berger. Put in the 39 BK load at 3500 fps and I believe that this could be the ultimate rig in the gopher patch as well.

When I started the development of the 20 EXTREME my goal was to run the 39/40 grain bullets to just under 3500 fps which was what was required to match the 22-250 trajectory to 500 yards. Another goal was to do this with a low pressure load running less than 22.2 grains of powder. At that time I suspected that it would run the 55 Berger VLD to 3150-3200 fps which is as good or better than Berger's loads in a 204R. It was a bonus that it also runs the 32 grain bullets from 3850 to over 4000 fps or perhaps even 4200 fps on a hot day. Another goal, perhaps not important to some, was to have all bullets seat to within 30 thousands of the lands with the bearing surface ahead of the neck shoulder junction and still fit in a 223 Saami Standard 2.26" magazine. Finally I wanted to completely eliminate fire forming so that a newly formed case held exactly the same amount of powder as one re-sized which has never been done before, at least not to my knowledge.

The 20 EXTREME design has met and even exceeded my design parameters and I believe it is the ultimate Varmint/Small Predator cartridge and in a CZ 527 Kevlar I feel it is the ultimate combination. I know that there are some who do not share my belief as I have faced much, on line, ridicule over the last6 or 7 years. However that is fine because me and some of those who have become good friends, after I set them up with one, know what we have.

duceman
10-06-2017, 06:26 PM
i like what you do and the way that you document everything laverne.
i would however, like to see some some targets shot at longer ranges, starting at 300 and going to at least 500, showing the drops and actual wind drift.
is there a chance that you would be able to make a road trip to my place to play sometime?

PartTimeHunter
10-06-2017, 10:57 PM
Decided to try the 55 Berger Long Range BT Varmint loads with Varget to see if I could better my groups and perhaps get that elusive 1/4" group with 5 shots at 100 yards. Got close and a bit better than last time with final slighter group getting 4 into 0.2" and a flier making it a .39" group. Will have to get a proper front rest or wait until the wind dies right off.

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Varget%2022.2%2055%20Berg%2018%20Celsius_zpstz3dkr ci.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/Varget%2022.2%2055%20Berg%2018%20Celsius_zpstz3dkr ci.jpg.html)

I may not be getting the elusive 1/4 " group but these loads are running really consistent as far as ES and SD and would be outstanding on coyotes to 500 yards in the field. When you consider that this is a CZ 527 Light Varmint I believe that I have the ultimate coyote rig with the 55 Berger. Put in the 39 BK load at 3500 fps and I believe that this could be the ultimate rig in the gopher patch as well.

When I started the development of the 20 EXTREME my goal was to run the 39/40 grain bullets to just under 3500 fps which was what was required to match the 22-250 trajectory to 500 yards. Another goal was to do this with a low pressure load running less than 22.2 grains of powder. At that time I suspected that it would run the 55 Berger VLD to 3150-3200 fps which is as good or better than Berger's loads in a 204R. It was a bonus that it also runs the 32 grain bullets from 3850 to over 4000 fps or perhaps even 4200 fps on a hot day. Another goal, perhaps not important to some, was to have all bullets seat to within 30 thousands of the lands with the bearing surface ahead of the neck shoulder junction and still fit in a 223 Saami Standard 2.26" magazine. Finally I wanted to completely eliminate fire forming so that a newly formed case held exactly the same amount of powder as one re-sized which has never been done before, at least not to my knowledge.

The 20 EXTREME design has met and even exceeded my design parameters and I believe it is the ultimate Varmint/Small Predator cartridge and in a CZ 527 Kevlar I feel it is the ultimate combination. I know that there are some who do not share my belief as I have faced much, on line, ridicule over the last6 or 7 years. However that is fine because me and some of those who have become good friends, after I set them up with one, know what we have.

Looks good Laverne. I have done some testing with the 40 grain Bergers with promising results on my Remington 700 though not quite as good as yours. I don't know, for all your complaining about rests and what not you sure seem to put up better groups than me. Sorry I didn't make it down last week had a problem come up - should have called. My friend was getting good results with the 40 gr V-Max and 8208 XBR though weather didn't cooperate and we didn't get it fine tuned.

PartTimeHunter
10-06-2017, 11:01 PM
i like what you do and the way that you document everything laverne.
i would however, like to see some some targets shot at longer ranges, starting at 300 and going to at least 500, showing the drops and actual wind drift.
is there a chance that you would be able to make a road trip to my place to play sometime?

Lee - if you want to play with one of these I'd be happy to drop one off for you to mess with for a bit. I am going to Airdrie Sunday if that is close to you I'd bring one along. Pm me if interested or call I think you have my number.

260 Rem
10-07-2017, 12:02 AM
Iclund ...have you tried a .010 jamb?

lclund1946
10-07-2017, 10:51 AM
Iclund ...have you tried a .010 jamb?

I have not tried anything but running 0.010" off the lands with this load and this rifle as it is 500 yard varmint load and jambing the lands can be a problem if you load a round and remove it without firing. I have had bullets pull out and drop the powder. However if I were looking for accuracy off the bench I have the option of running a 0.010" jamb and still have 0.141" bearing surface in the neck. If you look at the CFE 223 ladder drawing you will see that I can also run 0.050" off the lands and still be 0.010" ahead of the neck shoulder junction. When I designed this cartridge this 55 Berger bullet was not available and the 40/50 Bergers were not a good fit. When I showed one of my drawings to Walt Berger his only comment was, "Bearing surface ahead of the neck/shoulder junction, that is a must". Now I know that Walt did not design the 55LRBTVarmint for my 20 EXTREME but he couldn't have done a better job if he had.

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/lclund1946/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/55%20Berger%20ladders%20wiith%20CFE%20223_zpsuwn4i 2g9.jpg (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/lclund1946/media/20%20EXTREME%20Kreiger/55%20Berger%20ladders%20wiith%20CFE%20223_zpsuwn4i 2g9.jpg.html)

The above ladders show good potential for a low node at around 3100 and a high node at about 3200, with CFE 223, and a lot of room to spare in Winchester brass. We have proven loads with RS Tac and IMR 8208 that run a bit more pressure but shoot nearly the same.

My health does not allow me to do the work necessary to fine tune and test this load , let alone to 500 yards. I will have to leave that to duceman if he would be willing to take my rifle. I will supply the ammunition and perhaps take him up on his offer to come down to his place to play. However I may have to send it down with Kelly or have Lee come to pick it up. If the 20 EXTREME is ever going to get the attention it deserves I am going to have to pass on the torch as I can no longer carry on.

duceman
10-07-2017, 03:31 PM
wow! gracious offer guys! i would be happy to give one a test drive.
was kind of hoping to spend some some time with you laverne; i know i would enjoy visiting and learning.

tchardy1972
10-07-2017, 08:45 PM
wow! gracious offer guys! i would be happy to give one a test drive.
was kind of hoping to spend some some time with you laverne; i know i would enjoy visiting and learning.

Come pick it up whenever you want. You know where to find me. Otherwise, you will see it in the spring when it whoops ya.:fighting0074:

duceman
10-08-2017, 08:22 AM
haha! we'll see about that this year.......

lclund1946
10-08-2017, 12:21 PM
haha! we'll see about that this year.......

I am working on getting some brass ready too load for you. I only have 10 loaded with 22.1 and 10 with 22.2 grains of Varget @ 0.010" off the lands. The 22.2 load seems to have the lowest SD on cooler days so will load mostly them but will have a few of both just in case we get an Indigenous Summer after this current mess blows over.

If we can't get together with Travis this fall you may have to keep my rifle so you will have a chance next spring. You may even have the advantage as my load is traveling a bit faster than his good load. You may be able to test it on a few coyotes at longer ranges than Travis as well, once you get the come ups figured out. My guess is you will need 3MOA for 300, 5.5MOA for 400 and 8-8.25MOA for 500 yards and this little bullet will still be packing over 500 ft. lbs at that distance. If you have a steady 5mph cross wind you will get about 10 1/2" drift at 500.

Next weekend may be a good time to get together.