Solution for Rural Crime?

[raab]

Ive been thinking of the problem concerning rural crime and think Ive come up with an answer to it. That being volunteer Police teams similar to a volunteer Fire Department.

Basically what they would be is a group of volunteers who are funded by the municipal government. These volunteers would do training in apprehension and work along side the RCMP. They would NOT be used in regular police work like ticketing, domestic disputes, etc.... But would be called in for apprehension of criminals and Search and Rescue.

One of the biggest problems in Rural Alberta is that the RCMP dont have enough support, so if they want to go arrest someone they need to call in a member who is off duty or do it during the day. If we can give them a team of lets say 4-6 guys, fully trained on how to apprehend a suspect then I think apprehending criminals would be a hell of a lot easier for them as well as safer. I feel it would be worth pursuing as an option, depending on support from the general population.

Obviously these guys would all need to pass a background check, be proficient with their firearms, be willing to take the training and swear an oath. Basically they'd be becoming Deputies for the municipality in which they live.

[JB_AOL]

It all comes down to manpower.
It's easy to say "here's a solution", but when you think about the logistics. 4-6 people per night. How big of area do they "patrol?". Basically comes down to the same problem as the LEO's, can't be everywhere.

Many communities already have "Citizens on Patrol", and it's strictly a roving neighbourhood watch that calls the RCMP if they see anything suspicious. That is a much better idea than putting untrained civilians in the line of fire, and getting them to arrest someone.

Oh, and allowing someone who has basically zero tactical arms training to be allowed to use guns as "force" is asking for trouble. Not to mention the majority of police training is defusing a situation w/o the use of force (or implying force).

[Jack Hardin]

Ive been thinking of the problem concerning rural crime and think Ive come up with an answer to it. That being volunteer Police teams similar to a volunteer Fire Department.

Basically what they would be is a group of volunteers who are funded by the municipal government. These volunteers would do training in apprehension and work along side the RCMP. They would NOT be used in regular police work like ticketing, domestic disputes, etc.... But would be called in for apprehension of criminals and Search and Rescue.

One of the biggest problems in Rural Alberta is that the RCMP dont have enough support, so if they want to go arrest someone they need to call in a member who is off duty or do it during the day. If we can give them a team of lets say 4-6 guys, fully trained on how to apprehend a suspect then I think apprehending criminals would be a hell of a lot easier for them as well as safer. I feel it would be worth pursuing as an option, depending on support from the general population.

Obviously these guys would all need to pass a background check, be proficient with their firearms, be willing to take the training and swear an oath. Basically they'd be becoming Deputies for the municipality in which they live.

A good thought but, it wouldn't work for the same reason that they pulled Auxiliary Constables from going on patrol with regular members (liability). Also, who wants to go into a dangerous situation for free? I can't see the RCMP arming civilians to assist them on routine matters.

[HowSwedeItIs]

Prairie justice

[Gray Wolf]

.
http://rdcounty.ca/images/CivicAlerts/1/Rural%20Crime%20Watch.jpg

Link - http://www.ruralcrimewatch.ab.ca/


The actual apprehension and arrests should be done by the police.

The last thing we need is a bunch of Wannabe Cops trying to do it!

.

[2000victory]

Where I grew up...before they had the Rural Crime Watch ,we had our own rural protection system, all of our neighbours , and our family actively participated in looking out for our neighbours...not just by calling the authorities about suspicious behaviour...the neighbours would actually get in their vehicles and physically come and check things out...the kids would also get involved...I remember many times kinda on purpose blocking the road playing to slow down a vehicle so we could get info and description or we saw a neighbour driving up to catch up to that vehicle...it is unsettling for area visitors to be approached and or confronted by a local farmer , if you are up to no good... no need to confron just follow and get description ,but nowadays no one wants to get involved so prob won't work...maybe if more people made more effort to get to know their neighbours and made an effort to be more approachable by your neighbours...

[Ricki Bobby]

Where I grew up...before they had the Rural Crime Watch ,we had our own rural protection system, all of our neighbours , and our family actively participated in looking out for our neighbours...not just by calling the authorities about suspicious behaviour...the neighbours would actually get in their vehicles and physically come and check things out...the kids would also get involved...I remember many times kinda on purpose blocking the road playing to slow down a vehicle so we could get info and description or we saw a neighbour driving up to catch up to that vehicle...it is unsettling for area visitors to be approached and or confronted by a local farmer , if you are up to no good... no need to confron just follow and get description ,but nowadays no one wants to get involved so prob won't work...maybe if more people made more effort to get to know their neighbours and made an effort to be more approachable by your neighbours...

In my hood, we do this all the time. We all watch for any suspicious vehicles that we don't know and ask them outright if they are lost or whatever. I have taken many pics of vehicles and license plates and I always try and make sure the people in the vehicles see me take them. I have had a couple ask why i'm taking pics and I just say "for the police in case anything happens that shouldn't". Never had any problems!

[raab]

It all comes down to manpower.
It's easy to say "here's a solution", but when you think about the logistics. 4-6 people per night. How big of area do they "patrol?". Basically comes down to the same problem as the LEO's, can't be everywhere.

Many communities already have "Citizens on Patrol", and it's strictly a roving neighbourhood watch that calls the RCMP if they see anything suspicious. That is a much better idea than putting untrained civilians in the line of fire, and getting them to arrest someone.

Oh, and allowing someone who has basically zero tactical arms training to be allowed to use guns as "force" is asking for trouble. Not to mention the majority of police training is defusing a situation w/o the use of force (or implying force).

Where did I say untrained? They would all be trained, and it would most likely take a year to get them to the point where they'd be ready. Just like fire departments. Fire departments can't just send people into house fires without training.

As for defusing the situation, the best way to defuse a situation is for the criminal to think that you will follow through with your actions if they dont listen. If you show up with an RCMP officer and a team of guys fully outfitted with tactical gear that they know how to use. I think you have a good chance of defusing a situation.

As for area it could work the same as the municipal fire departments. Where each department would cover an area, but they could call in other departments if the situation called for it or they didn't get enough guys responding.

[raab]

A good thought but, it wouldn't work for the same reason that they pulled Auxiliary Constables from going on patrol with regular members (liability). Also, who wants to go into a dangerous situation for free? I can't see the RCMP arming civilians to assist them on routine matters.

It's not up to the RCMP. It would fall under the Alberta Solicitor General. Basically all it would take is for the volunteers to be sworn in as peace officers after passing their training.

As for pay, I will say, two weeks ago one of my neighbors had a gun pulled on them as they tried to stop a thief in their yard. A couple days ago 3 of my neighbors were out in the early morning chasing thieves out of their yards with firearms. The RCMP were over an hour away at the time. We also just had an armed robbery in town.

So for me personally I'd volunteer, because I know just having the option will be a BIG deterrent to crime in rural communities. I also dont want to see any of my neighbors get hurt, or end up going to jail because they shot a criminal. I work nights as well, and would like the option in the community in case my wife and kids are ever in trouble.

I think many rural residents would agree with me, but I'm not sure. So thats why I asked here, Im willing to start petitioning the government for it. If there is enough support from other rural residents.

[Drewski Canuck]

Your Proposal of a "Posse" is interesting, but it only suggests an "arrest force".

By then, its too late, as the RCMP have identified the Suspect, not prevented the act.

Most Rural Crime is Property Crime of one sort or another, whether its a break in or theft of vehicles.

As many can attest, even if you catch the thief, after the fact, you won't get your stuff back.

Instead, it would make more sense to have more Sherriff patrols on rural areas, at night, especially Cabins that are seasonal use only. This will not be cheap, but cheaper than an RCMP Constable.

What I have proposed to the Sergeant at Athabasca Detachment is a Probationary Order of Banishment from the area for 3 years. That way, if the thief is even SEEN in the area, a Warrant goes for his / her arrest.

The reality is that the trouble makers in the rural areas are usually from the area, and as soon as they are let out, are back at it again as soon as they are back in the area. If they are banished, this is real deterrence, as they have no where to go. Jail does not mean anything to these repeat offenders. Not having anywhere to stay does mean something to them.

Drewski

[Scott N]

I keep picture Homer Simpson and his gang of vigilantes walking around with a pillowcase full of doorknobs for some reason. Not that the original idea doesn't have merit, but I can foresee a few problems coming about.

[raab]

Your Proposal of a "Posse" is interesting, but it only suggests an "arrest force".

By then, its too late, as the RCMP have identified the Suspect, not prevented the act.

Most Rural Crime is Property Crime of one sort or another, whether its a break in or theft of vehicles.

As many can attest, even if you catch the thief, after the fact, you won't get your stuff back.

Instead, it would make more sense to have more Sherriff patrols on rural areas, at night, especially Cabins that are seasonal use only. This will not be cheap, but cheaper than an RCMP Constable.

What I have proposed to the Sergeant at Athabasca Detachment is a Probationary Order of Banishment from the area for 3 years. That way, if the thief is even SEEN in the area, a Warrant goes for his / her arrest.

The reality is that the trouble makers in the rural areas are usually from the area, and as soon as they are let out, are back at it again as soon as they are back in the area. If they are banished, this is real deterrence, as they have no where to go. Jail does not mean anything to these repeat offenders. Not having anywhere to stay does mean something to them.

Drewski

Well it was just my original idea to not make the guys to busy if they volunteer. Im all for discussion about what their role could be in the community. I would want these guys having the same powers as any peace officer in the province which means they could easily make an arrest or patrol an area. They could also be first response to any serious calls, like someone pulling a gun on a farmer. Probably take them about 15 minutes to get to any scene , but that beats the hell out of 45 minute to an hour response time for RCMP.

Also as for banishment, they'll just go and take someone elses property. The property theft doesn't really bug me to bad. I can replace my vehicle or garden tractor or whatever else they want to take. But when these idiots are showing up with firearms and pulling them on people, thats where I have the issue. We need harsh sentences for anyone using a firearm as part of a crime. Minimum 10 year sentencing for using or being armed in the act of any crime.

[raab]

Added a poll. If yes gets over 50% support I will move forward with the idea and start looking for a group to help petition the government.

[Newview01]

I voted no.

Too risky, too many rambos will apply.

[raab]

I voted no.

Too risky, too many rambos will apply.

There will be background checks, everyone will need to take the peace officer training at minimum.

[Okotokian]

So you propose to use them for "apprehension of criminals"? Just stop and think for a moment what that entails. That's the activity that MOST challenges a well-trained police officer. You need to accurately determine whether there is probable cause. You have to be aware of and address the rights of alleged perpetrators. You have to apprehend them while protecting public safety. You may have to deal with a violent or armed individual. I'd say that's absolutely the LAST thing you want well-intentioned amateurs doing. I can't imagine that any case wouldn't get thrown out of court for some legal screw up. People could really get hurt too.

If needed, resurrect some version of rural crime watch.

[JB_AOL]

Where did I say untrained? They would all be trained, and it would most likely take a year to get them to the point where they'd be ready. Just like fire departments. Fire departments can't just send people into house fires without training.

That's the thing.. It's a never ending "training", you don't just learn it, and you're done, specifically if it's skills you don't use every day (like LEO's). For Example, think about drugs and how they change on a daily occuranance, how can someone who isn't brought up to speed on recoqnizing drug use and side effects, effectively take down someone. You know that Meth users can take sometimes upwards of 6-10 trained people to be taken down. Guess who's stealing to support their habits?

Volunteer Fire department is much different (no disrespect intended), but as a VFD you are dealing with property, not (usually) humans. I'm simplifying (once again, no disrespect intended), but VFD really only have to "say get out" and possibly administer first aid.

As for defusing the situation, the best way to defuse a situation is for the criminal to think that you will follow through with your actions if they dont listen. If you show up with an RCMP officer and a team of guys fully outfitted with tactical gear that they know how to use. I think you have a good chance of defusing a situation.

So you go from Volunteers, to full Tactical gear showing up with an RCMP. I thought the purpose was to help because the LEO's weren't avail?

[covey ridge]

I voted no.

Too risky, too many rambos will apply.

I voted no as well.

[raab]

So you propose to use them for "apprehension of criminals"? Just stop and think for a moment what that entails. That's the activity that MOST challenges a well-trained police officer. You need to accurately determine whether there is probable cause. You have to be aware of and address the rights of alleged perpetrators. You have to apprehend them while protecting public safety. You may have to deal with a violent or armed individual. I'd say that's absolutely the LAST thing you want well-intentioned amateurs doing. I can't imagine that any case wouldn't get thrown out of court for some legal screw up. People could really get hurt too.

If needed, resurrect some version of rural crime watch.

Are you saying people can't get hurt on volunteer fire departments? Of course there is risks, which is why there would be substantial training. The training would also be on how to make an arrest, and insure that there is no legal screw ups. These guys would NOT be amateurs, they would be well trained, but only do it on a part time/on call basis with everything paid for by the municipality. Your looking at 1 to 2 years training before anyone even goes on a call.

The RCMP and EPS have 6 months of depot then ride alongs IIRC. Yes they do it every day, but they also respond to countless other types of calls they need to be trained for. Things like ticketing, domestic disputes, crack heads, fatalities, etc... You could take most of that training out by having your department focus on apprehension and patrol. I wouldn't expect or want these guys ticketing people or responding to domestic disputes/crack heads(Unless requested). Theyre there for first response to any serious call, aiding in apprehension of armed suspects, patrolling, and search and rescue.

[CMichaud]

The RCMP should copy the army reserve model and increase their reserve capacity to address manning shortfalls.

Their current program seems off-target and appears to lack federal coord and policy.

eg: http://bc.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=23&languageId=1&contentId=379

RCMP Auxiliary Constables are volunteers who receive a BC Police Act Appointment as a sworn peace officer after completing the approved RCMP and Provincial Ministry of Justice training.

They are required to:
•maintain RCMP security clearance standards, and
•must complete a minimum of 160 hours annually.

Auxiliary Constables:
•are not employees
•are covered by WorkSafe BC and insurance provided by the Province of British Columbia against accidental death and dismemberment, and civil liability.



Training appears to be over-kill and the program is not well advertised/marketed and, as a result, under-utilized.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/news/2016/22/rcmp-auxiliary-program

[Gray Wolf]

So you propose to use them for "apprehension of criminals"? Just stop and think for a moment what that entails. That's the activity that MOST challenges a well-trained police officer. You need to accurately determine whether there is probable cause. You have to be aware of and address the rights of alleged perpetrators. You have to apprehend them while protecting public safety. You may have to deal with a violent or armed individual. I'd say that's absolutely the LAST thing you want well-intentioned amateurs doing. I can't imagine that any case wouldn't get thrown out of court for some legal screw up. People could really get hurt too.

If needed, resurrect some version of rural crime watch.

All good points, but there's no need to 'resurrect' Rural Crime Watch (a.k.a. Range Patrol). It's alive and well, in many areas.

Before trying to create an amature cop force, time should be spent as a Rural Crime Watch / Range Patrol volunteer. They do a lot of good, and there's lots to be learned there - http://www.ruralcrimewatch.ab.ca/
.

[raab]

That's the thing.. It's a never ending "training", you don't just learn it, and you're done, specifically if it's skills you don't use every day (like LEO's). For Example, think about drugs and how they change on a daily occuranance, how can someone who isn't brought up to speed on recoqnizing drug use and side effects, effectively take down someone. You know that Meth users can take sometimes upwards of 6-10 trained people to be taken down. Guess who's stealing to support their habits?

Volunteer Fire department is much different (no disrespect intended), but as a VFD you are dealing with property, not (usually) humans. I'm simplifying (once again, no disrespect intended), but VFD really only have to "say get out" and possibly administer first aid.



So you go from Volunteers, to full Tactical gear showing up with an RCMP. I thought the purpose was to help because the LEO's weren't avail?

Training would take place every week, and several weekends throughout the year. To keep up to date, and keep skills sharp. Would also be joint training with local RCMP officers.

As for tactical, and my comment about working with the RCMP. They could be called in as backup when the RCMP know they are going to apprehend a suspect known for violence or running. Right now they have to call in officers who are off duty or wait until day light to make an arrest in many parts of Alberta. They simply don't have enough officers to execute arrest warrants safely a lot of the time. Im not sure, but wouldnt be surprised if a group like the one I'm describing would have prevented the Mayerthorpe incident.

In saying that I would expect every volunteer to be issued body armor and a helmet at the very least. Given the types of situations they'd be going into I'd want them well protected.

For firearms that would need to be thoroughly discussed. I was thinking they would only be issued Non Restricted weapons. Bolt Action, Semi Auto, and Shotguns. Should be more then enough to apprehend a suspect with a team of individuals who know how to use each.

[Okotokian]

Are you saying people can't get hurt on volunteer fire departments?
.

Apples and oranges. Volunteer firemen don't do any of the things I mentioned. I can't recall one ever violating the rights of a citizen or beating or killing them, all things that sometimes happen in arrests even by well-trained policemen.

[Rancid Crabtree]

My solution is
1. End the contract with RCMP. Start Alberta Police force ( staffed so some extent by ex RCMP officers.
2. Deputize and train members of volunteer fire departments. They attend calls quickly and decide if a police officer is needed. This allows officers to focus on crime rather than answering calls that don't require them.
3. Quit charging citizens who are defending themselves against crime.

[raab]

Apples and oranges. Volunteer firemen don't do any of the things I mentioned. I can't recall one ever violating the rights of a citizen or beating or killing them, all things that sometimes happen in arrests even by well-trained policemen.

Dont you live in the city?

[covey ridge]

If I was a police officer wanting to make an arrest, I would want back up from police officers. If I was suspecting a violent confrontation making the arrest I would want back up by a trained swat team.

If the reason for arrest develops quickly there might be no time to notify and get those volunteers in position. If there is time to plan, I would want real police officers.

[Okotokian]

Dont you live in the city?

No. A town, with a volunteer component in the fire department. Not sure what your point is.

[sgill808]

I keep picture Homer Simpson and his gang of vigilantes walking around with a pillowcase full of doorknobs for some reason. Not that the original idea doesn't have merit, but I can foresee a few problems coming about.

Yes this is also what I pictured. To the extent of supplying their own knobs.

I think this discussion is just going to lead to "well if it's dangerous apprehending criminals, shouldn't we be allowed to carry firearms." Don't say I didn't warn you.

[Chewbacca]

My solution is
1. End the contract with RCMP. Start Alberta Police force ( staffed so some extent by ex RCMP officers.
2. Deputize and train members of volunteer fire departments. They attend calls quickly and decide if a police officer is needed. This allows officers to focus on crime rather than answering calls that don't require them.
3. Quit charging citizens who are defending themselves against crime.

1. Seems to work for Ontario
2. Good idea.
3. This is the best thought. Add a real risk to the crime. The way it stands now you catch them red handed and they say prove its yours.

[Selkirk]

If I was a police officer wanting to make an arrest, I would want back up from police officers. If I was suspecting a violent confrontation making the arrest I would want back up by a trained swat team.

If the reason for arrest develops quickly there might be no time to notify and get those volunteers in position. If there is time to plan, I would want real police officers.

Exactly !

As in real, live, fully trained, official, police officers! Not a couple of local, trigger happy Rambo Yahoos, who managed to scrape through a few courses on the weekends.

And yes, I live in the country.

And yes, I voted 'No!'


Selkirk

[Smokinyotes]

I dont think a volunteer force is the answer. If RCMP actually came when first called this would help rural crime but the real deterrent would be if home owners could start gut shooting some of these thugs or chopping hands off would be a real deterrent.

[michaelmicallef]

Raise taxes so no one can afford anything worth steeling.

[raab]

No. A town, with a volunteer component in the fire department. Not sure what your point is.

The point is if you live in town with tons of resources you might not understand my fear. We've had 2 neighbors in as many weeks have firearms pulled on them. How long until one of these thugs comes down my driveway? What if Im away and they hold my kids and wife at gun point? Police could have over an hour response time. That's unacceptable for me, I want someone there quickly. That's why I came up with the idea of volunteer deputies.

As it is all the neighbors will most likely be going in on security systems and we'll be responding to each others homes if they go off.

[raab]

If I was a police officer wanting to make an arrest, I would want back up from police officers. If I was suspecting a violent confrontation making the arrest I would want back up by a trained swat team.

If the reason for arrest develops quickly there might be no time to notify and get those volunteers in position. If there is time to plan, I would want real police officers.

If you were suspecting a violent confrontation, and needed SWAT. Then the Deputies help secure the perimeter to ensure no one escapes. Try securing a perimeter with two cops for 10 hours while SWAT responds from Edmonton. Obviously different departments will have different needs.

If I was an Officer and knew and trained with the local volunteers I'd have no problem calling them out to help with an arrest. More people means less problems for an officer.

The basic premise is do we want more people available to respond to police emergencies or not?

[raab]

I dont think a volunteer force is the answer. If RCMP actually came when first called this would help rural crime but the real deterrent would be if home owners could start gut shooting some of these thugs or chopping hands off would be a real deterrent.

Would also like to see castle law brought into effect. Having that and local deputies in every town would go a long way in reducing the crime rate in rural areas.

[covey ridge]

The basic premise is do we want more people available to respond to police emergencies or not?

I would not just want more people or more bodies. If the RCMP are planning an arrest they have enough people. If it was a serious incident non police people would just get in the way. If the RCMP do not have enough man hours to get the job done, they do not have the time to train those wannabes. I would rather a few good men than many who are not police, just because the need for more bodies.. I doubt you could get a volunteer response briefed and ready to go in less than an hour. Do you just want a bunch of volunteer prepared to shoot it out with a minimum amount of preparation?

If there is a bunch of bad guys approaching your property, what's the plan?

[silverdoctor]

Fighting a losing battle here Raab, these fellers can't agree on anything.

I vote carry a big stick and walk softly, won't see you coming.

Wouldn't neighborhood watch be a good start?

[hal53]

Fighting a losing battle here Raab, these fellers can't agree on anything.

I vote carry a big stick and walk softly, won't see you coming.

Wouldn't neighborhood watch be a good start?
The way our legal system works, "watch" is the key word there.......:thinking-006:

[silverdoctor]

The way our legal system works, "watch" is the key word there.......:thinking-006:

We don't have castle doctrine, you don't have the right to self defense - this is Canada, and you can thank the government for it. I'd like to see more shootings in this regard, but It is what it is. Even the police don't want us defending ourselves, hide and let them rob you.

i don't know what to say.

[huntsfurfish]

I voted no.

Too risky, too many rambos will apply.

Agree.

[hal53]

We don't have castle doctrine, you don't have the right to self defense - this is Canada, and you can thank the government for it. I'd like to see more shootings in this regard, but It is what it is. Even the police don't want us defending ourselves, hide and let them rob you.

i don't know what to say.
Yup...and I get a kick out of you city folk that are howling when police response time is greater than 10 minutes....

[covey ridge]

The point is if you live in town with tons of resources you might not understand my fear. We've had 2 neighbors in as many weeks have firearms pulled on them. How long until one of these thugs comes down my driveway? What if Im away and they hold my kids and wife at gun point? Police could have over an hour response time. That's unacceptable for me, I want someone there quickly. That's why I came up with the idea of volunteer deputies.

As it is all the neighbors will most likely be going in on security systems and we'll be responding to each others homes if they go off.

If they are actually holding your wife and kids a gun point that is not a job for a quick set up bunch of volunteers.

[covey ridge]

We don't have castle doctrine, you don't have the right to self defense - this is Canada, .

We do not have castle doctrine but we do have the right of self defense. Its just that no one is going to give anyone blanket permission to gut shoot or off someone with no questions asked. If one is required to defend life there will be an investigation and if the defense is found to be reasonable there will be no charges.

Probably not get away with shooting someone running away after stealing gasoline.

[covey ridge]

I dont think a volunteer force is the answer. If RCMP actually came when first called this would help rural crime but the real deterrent would be if home owners could start gut shooting some of these thugs or chopping hands off would be a real deterrent.

Yep that is the type of language one should use on a thread suggesting arming of volunteers:thinking-006:

[silverdoctor]

We do not have castle doctrine but we do have the right of self defense. Its just that no one is going to give anyone blanket permission to gut shoot or off someone with no questions asked. If one is required to defend life there will be an investigation and if the defense is found to be reasonable there will be no charges.

Probably not get away with shooting someone running away after stealing gasoline.

Like everything else in Canada, it's subjective and up to the cops. Reasonable force is a tricky thing.

[michaelmicallef]

It's nice to dream. Nothing will happen guys except people getting hurt that confront thieves and if you don't get hurt you'll be charged. God forbid you mess up someone that pulls up on your land with none malicious intent. This is Canada and nothing is going to change as far as people being allowed
to protect their property.

[fitzy]

I voted no.

Kinda feels like a short cut to your dream of being able to carry.

[raab]

I would not just want more people or more bodies. If the RCMP are planning an arrest they have enough people. If it was a serious incident non police people would just get in the way. If the RCMP do not have enough man hours to get the job done, they do not have the time to train those wannabes. I would rather a few good men than many who are not police, just because the need for more bodies.. I doubt you could get a volunteer response briefed and ready to go in less than an hour. Do you just want a bunch of volunteer prepared to shoot it out with a minimum amount of preparation?

If there is a bunch of bad guys approaching your property, what's the plan?

Clearly youve never worked with the RCMP in rural Alberta. They DONT have the people which is why I think this is a good idea. If the RCMP had enough people then I wouldnt be proposing this idea. And training goes through the Solicitor general, not the RCMP.

[raab]

I voted no.

Kinda feels like a short cut to your dream of being able to carry.

Yea, except I said would probably only issue non-restricted weapons... If you dont want me protecting my home, then I want good responses times. And not one cop with a handgun. I want 4-6 guys with semi auto's and shotguns pulling up my driveway if these idiots pull a gun on my wife. If nothing changes I guarantee people will be getting shot. Either farmers or criminals.

[bobalong]

Get rid of the RCMP, or send them down east. Provincial police force that will go into rural areas. RCMP have basically become totally useless to the rural areas of Alberta.

[Nyksta]

http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-the-police-are-the-public-and-the-public-are-the-police-the-police-being-only-members-robert-peel-22-79-18.jpg

[The Spank]

The best solution is the one they have in Texas known as The Castle Law. Step foot on my property and I feel you intend to harm me and I have the legal right to shoot you....DEAD!!

[58thecat]

Hey we got volunteer firefighters so why not police...active even in thier own vehicles etc...that would put a damper on all the meatheads activities not just rural but urban too...little light on the dash, pull ya over, identify themself and write tickets etc:sHa_shakeshout:

[58thecat]

http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-the-police-are-the-public-and-the-public-are-the-police-the-police-being-only-members-robert-peel-22-79-18.jpg

Written during a time when if you stole a horse you hung...we have tooooo many snowflakes today...oh he was a good person, didn't mean to get wrapped up in that crowd....blablabla....

[Newview01]

Get rid of the RCMP, or send them down east. Provincial police force that will go into rural areas. RCMP have basically become totally useless to the rural areas of Alberta.

X2

A federal police force is a recipe for disaster. Their usefulness was gone before the dodo. A Provincially administrated police force would be a much better idea IMO.

[JB_AOL]

Sorry Raab.. But you are emotional because of what has happened around you, and are not thinking straight..

The time commitment alone would kill this "volunteer" aspect of it, with all the training (and retraining), then the actual time for "policing".

One sentence your stating these "volunteers" would assist RCMP on dangerous situations, and the next you'd say they would only help with these basic crimes.. I don't know who you think is committing all these crimes, but the vast majority of them are crack heads/lifers feeding their habits. In other words, they are dangerous as was proved by the situations that happened to your neighbors. Your solution wouldn't work for your situation.

Notice I haven't even mentioned the liability part.. (which is why this is a no-go).

As I mentioned, Why not discuss the situation with your neighbors (and local LEO), and create a watch, but make it a visible watch. Switch nights with your neighbors driving up and down the roads with an orange flashing light on the roof and a security sign slapped on the side. That alone would deter most criminals. Remember, the same reason you bought in the country (peace and quiet) is the same reason criminals are finding these "easy" targets.

Put up signs saying "smile your on camera", buy some cheap fake cameras, and place them near the sign.

[covey ridge]

I want 4-6 guys with semi auto's and shotguns pulling up my driveway if these idiots pull a gun on my wife. If nothing changes I guarantee people will be getting shot. Either farmers or criminals.

Let me get this straight. Idiots got a gun pulled on your wife and you would want other armed idiots to be seen pulling into driveway?

You may force the hand of the guys that got the drop on your wife and there is no guarantee that this will end the way you expect.

If the armed posse just pull into your drive, they were not trained right.

[covey ridge]

Like everything else in Canada, it's subjective and up to the cops. Reasonable force is a tricky thing.

Reasonable force is a judgment thing. The crown and the police may make decision to charge but the decision to convict is up to the court.

[covey ridge]

Clearly youve never worked with the RCMP in rural Alberta. They DONT have the people which is why I think this is a good idea. If the RCMP had enough people then I wouldnt be proposing this idea. And training goes through the Solicitor general, not the RCMP.

Clearly you do not know armed incident response procedure. There is no policy that would allow a bunch of armed people to just arrive and immediately confront a dangerous situation.

and I have worked with the RCMP in rural Alberta.

[elkhunter11]

Bring in Castle law and the thieves and home invaders will think twice before committing crimes. The thieves don't fear our police or the courts, which is why rural crime keeps increasing.

[JB_AOL]

Bring in Castle law and the thieves and home invaders will think twice before committing crimes. The thieves don't fear our police or the courts, which is why rural crime keeps increasing.

While that is one bandaid, the real solution is fixing our legal system.

The majority of these criminals are well known to police and repeat offenders. In fact (contrary to what you want to hear), that is why alot of the response times are not as quick as you would like. Wouldn't you get fed up catching the same person over and over again, only to see them released with a slap on the wrist.

Did you know that some criminals will actually time their crimes/captures so they can get a warm bed/meal during the winters. There is no FEAR of going to jail.

That is what is wrong.

[Nyksta]

Written during a time when if you stole a horse you hung...we have tooooo many snowflakes today...oh he was a good person, didn't mean to get wrapped up in that crowd....blablabla....

What are you talking about getting hung for horses? Robert peels idea is that the route to safer communities is dependant on the community being involved and aware of their issues. If people shut their windows and turn a blind eye, then the person needing help is on their own. Robert peel doesnt say what level of participation is put onto the public, but neighborhood watch definately comes to mind.

[Okotokian]

The point is if you live in town with tons of resources you might not understand my fear. We've had 2 neighbors in as many weeks have firearms pulled on them. How long until one of these thugs comes down my driveway? What if Im away and they hold my kids and wife at gun point? Police could have over an hour response time. That's unacceptable for me, I want someone there quickly. That's why I came up with the idea of volunteer deputies.

As it is all the neighbors will most likely be going in on security systems and we'll be responding to each others homes if they go off.


Understood. However, I never said, nor meant to convey, that rural people don't have reason for concern about crime, just as anyone who lives anywhere has. But that's no reason to take a bad idea and implement it. Having amateurs trying to stop and take down "criminals" they believe might have broken into a house is a recipe for disaster, and at the very least, mistrials.

[243 wild cat]

Its has some good thoughts Raab but your fighting a losing battle here some of these fellers can't see beyond what needs to be done to help change the deterrence on scumbags victmizing innocent people! I agree on the support but how things are going with the laws and what i have been told personally by the RCMP that there hands are tied to really make a difference on crime when they just keep letting them out and most of the scumbags get more violent in there crimes. We are all better off with just helping your neighbours and family by standing strong and dealing with the scum that's out there to victimize you. No one will ever tell me that i have no right to protect my family or my property NO ONE! A shovel with no story would help this rule crime spree. I would sleep like a rock for the rest of my life if i had to take drastic measures to protect myself or some one else confronting scumbags that will harm me that would be their choice first and that would seal there fate. Im just saying we all have a choice Stay safe people

I vote carry a big stick and walk softly, X2

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes
I dont think a volunteer force is the answer. If RCMP actually came when first called this would help rural crime but the real deterrent would be if home owners could start gut shooting some of these thugs or chopping hands off would be a real deterrent...... Something tells me that could work Smokinyotes lol:thinking-006:

[raab]

Sorry Raab.. But you are emotional because of what has happened around you, and are not thinking straight..

The time commitment alone would kill this "volunteer" aspect of it, with all the training (and retraining), then the actual time for "policing".

One sentence your stating these "volunteers" would assist RCMP on dangerous situations, and the next you'd say they would only help with these basic crimes.. I don't know who you think is committing all these crimes, but the vast majority of them are crack heads/lifers feeding their habits. In other words, they are dangerous as was proved by the situations that happened to your neighbors. Your solution wouldn't work for your situation.

Notice I haven't even mentioned the liability part.. (which is why this is a no-go).

As I mentioned, Why not discuss the situation with your neighbors (and local LEO), and create a watch, but make it a visible watch. Switch nights with your neighbors driving up and down the roads with an orange flashing light on the roof and a security sign slapped on the side. That alone would deter most criminals. Remember, the same reason you bought in the country (peace and quiet) is the same reason criminals are finding these "easy" targets.

Put up signs saying "smile your on camera", buy some cheap fake cameras, and place them near the sign.

They won't be policing very much if they only go to serious calls and apprehensions. A bit of Patrol every now and then. Like I said no ticketing or traffic stops. Most communities dont have that much serious crime so they wont be called out often. The biggest thing would be that criminals would know someone is coming and they will be arrested if they do commit a crime. They dont have 40 minutes to sit their hold you at gun point and steal your gasoline and vehicles.

As I said we need to do something or some innocent farmer is going to end up in jail for shooting a crackhead. You yourself said these people could be(IMO ARE) dangerous, and youre alright leaving people alone waiting 40 minutes for a police officer to respond. Give you head a shake man. Now whether they're volunteers or paid on call (meaning they get paid a small amount for hours on call and full wages when they get called out) they would still have all the training a peace officer in Alberta receives. Only difference is they would specialize in apprehension and S&R. I know a few farmers around my place who are ex military. They're already talking about how we solve this issue.

[raab]

Understood. However, I never said, nor meant to convey, that rural people don't have reason for concern about crime, just as anyone who lives anywhere has. But that's no reason to take a bad idea and implement it. Having amateurs trying to stop and take down "criminals" they believe might have broken into a house is a recipe for disaster, and at the very least, mistrials.

Is it better if I just shoot the guy who shows up at my place with a gun? If you dont want TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS doing the work then I want castle doctrine and the right to carry.

[pikeman06]

I live in central alberta east. People are fed up with the crime and I think it's just a matter of time till someone takes the law into their own hands. Police are basically nowhere to be seen and response times are ridiculous. I little more patrol time would definitely help. If the cops would get out at night and patrol the small towns and pull over the odd guy late at night on the highways I'm sure they would be stumble upon the odd criminal. You see them make a pass thru town at 3pm on a Sunday...never at night. I'm not sure what the logic is. Alot of people out here have given up on the police and are talking crazy about vigilante type action and I hardly blame them. Sad state of affairs.

[Okotokian]

Is it better if I just shoot the guy who shows up at my place with a gun?

Yes. Then at least you are killing the perpetrator who threatens you with a gun, not stopping some innocent guy on the road because you got a call and you THINK he sort matches the vague description you got. And then you had to shoot him because he resisted you arresting him, like our Florida citizens patrol vigilante Zimmerman.


If you dont want TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS doing the work then I want castle doctrine and the right to carry.

"TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS" are exactly what I want. What you suggested was volunteer non-professional part-timers, was it not?

[raab]

Yes. Then at least you are killing the perpetrator who threatens you with a gun, not stopping some innocent guy on the road because you got a call and you THINK he sort matches the vague description you got. And then you had to shoot him because he resisted you arresting him, like our Florida citizens patrol vigilante Zimmerman.




"TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS" are exactly what I want. What you suggested was volunteer non-professional part-timers, was it not?

You know you can be trained and not do a job full time right? Just like the fire department gets training. You can't just roll up on a structure fire and go in. It takes training before your even allowed to go on calls. IMO paid on call Deputies are the most cost effective solution for rural communities.

[JB_AOL]

They won't be policing very much if they only go to serious calls and apprehensions. A bit of Patrol every now and then. Like I said no ticketing or traffic stops.

There's really no point then, if they are only occasionally patrolling (and on call). Chances of these volunteers being able to respond faster than a LEO is pretty slim, unless it happens out front of their house or you train every person in the community.

Most of these thefts are from people that have scoped out the property, and usually know that households schedule.

Most communities dont have that much serious crime so they wont be called out often. The biggest thing would be that criminals would know someone is coming and they will be arrested if they do commit a crime. They dont have 40 minutes to sit their hold you at gun point and steal your gasoline and vehicles.

They already know someone is coming (and don't know when). You keep saying 40 minutes?? Response time is a variable that is location/environment/etc dependent. That goes for these volunteers as well.

As I said we need to do something or some innocent farmer is going to end up in jail for shooting a crackhead. You yourself said these people could be(IMO ARE) dangerous, and youre alright leaving people alone waiting 40 minutes for a police officer to respond. Give you head a shake man.

Once again.. 40 mins.. I bet by the time you get off your laptop looking at conspiracy theories, put your pants on, answer the phone, stumble into your vehicle, then drive 15kms to respond to an incident, 40mins will also have passed. oh, and that's if you were actually awake when the call came.

You sir.. Need to give your head a shake, and think about the logistics of what you are talking about.

If the appearance of authority is all you are wanting, why not create that now? Why does there have to be any training/guns/etc? You're just looking for an excuse to open carry.

If your neighbors are actually ex-military, why not create a patrol? Throw a sign on the car that is patrolling, and drive around 24/7, take turns, showing presence.

(I know that doesn't play into your agenda, but that alone would reduce your neighborhood crime)

[JB_AOL]

You know you can be trained and not do a job full time right? Just like the fire department gets training. You can't just roll up on a structure fire and go in. It takes training before your even allowed to go on calls. IMO paid on call Deputies are the most cost effective solution for rural communities.

Why not? If I saw a house on fire, first thing, call 911, second check if there's anyone inside, whether that involves me going it or not depends on the situation. Zero training.

You're still comparing apples to oranges..

What you are talking about is if you saw the arsonist leaving the scene. But I don't know any firefighter that would chase down the arsonist vs put out the fire.

Ok.. who pays? We already pay for LEO's out of our taxes.

Here's an idea.. did you know the RCMP are severely understaffed? Why not apply for a job? Encourage your ex-military friends to join.. Hell, even if just one joined and parked their cruiser out front, crime in the area would drop.

[raab]

There's really no point then, if they are only occasionally patrolling (and on call). Chances of these volunteers being able to respond faster than a LEO is pretty slim, unless it happens out front of their house or you train every person in the community.

Most of these thefts are from people that have scoped out the property, and usually know that households schedule.



They already know someone is coming (and don't know when). You keep saying 40 minutes?? Response time is a variable that is location/environment/etc dependent. That goes for these volunteers as well.

Once again.. 40 mins.. I bet by the time you get off your laptop looking at conspiracy theories, put your pants on, answer the phone, stumble into your vehicle, then drive 15kms to respond to an incident, 40mins will also have passed. oh, and that's if you were actually awake when the call came.

You sir.. Need to give your head a shake, and think about the logistics of what you are talking about.

If the appearance of authority is all you are wanting, why not create that now? Why does there have to be any training/guns/etc? You're just looking for an excuse to open carry.

If your neighbors are actually ex-military, why not create a patrol? Throw a sign on the car that is patrolling, and drive around 24/7, take turns, showing presence.

(I know that doesn't play into your agenda, but that alone would reduce your neighborhood crime)

Try 8 minutes to get into a department, and rolling within 90 seconds of getting there. Ive done that for most of my professional career while on call fairly easily. Definitely not an issue getting most places within the response area in 15 minutes or less if we have departments in every small town.

And what happens if we create a patrol and end up shooting someone at one of the neighbors? We already know these guys are armed, would you like us to just go give them hugs? Why not have more police, and get these criminals off the roads and create safer communities?

And the 40 minutes response time is a conservative estimate. They took over an hour to get here for one of the robberies, and never made it all the way on the other. A high speed chase started as the locals ganged up on the bunch and ran them into town. Cops were supposed to set up a road block, but took it down once they found out the car was doing over 150. The crew got away and went on to go hold another household at gun point later that evening.

[243 wild cat]

I live in central alberta east. People are fed up with the crime and I think it's just a matter of time till someone takes the law into their own hands. Police are basically nowhere to be seen and response times are ridiculous. I little more patrol time would definitely help. If the cops would get out at night and patrol the small towns and pull over the odd guy late at night on the highways I'm sure they would be stumble upon the odd criminal. You see them make a pass thru town at 3pm on a Sunday...never at night. I'm not sure what the logic is. Alot of people out here have given up on the police and are talking crazy about vigilante type action and I hardly blame them. Sad state of affairs.

The Police or are laws that are put there to help us as LAWFUL CITIZENS! is a joke and all this talk is why people will start to take things that happen to them and deal with it there way. Its just a matter of time and the less the people knows about it the better. The fate of the scum in this world means nothing! always has and always will we never hear about scum dying or missing never. A good point i heard about was of a body found in the bush by hunters a local scumbag drug dealer convicted of selling to kids and adults more times then we know :sign0176:funny how that case is closed with no news coverage all but forgotten but for local people with kids all smiles when they heard of this funny thing he was found with no clothes on -30 out that week :thinking-006: called it suspicious lol. Its when i see or hear of a innocent person being harmed or victimized that hurts and people are sick of it! Call it what you like vigilante justice on crime works it has for decades it just hasn't been brought back or thought of for decades! And we are seeing it with all the crime wave of are time. Cracked out Scumbags know right from wrong they don,t know what punishment is and what can happen to fit the CRIME! yet but i can see it coming and the less i hear of it the better. Just the odd story like i told is good to hear lol
Stay safe!

[raab]

Why not? If I saw a house on fire, first thing, call 911, second check if there's anyone inside, whether that involves me going it or not depends on the situation. Zero training.

You're still comparing apples to oranges..

What you are talking about is if you saw the arsonist leaving the scene. But I don't know any firefighter that would chase down the arsonist vs put out the fire.

Ok.. who pays? We already pay for LEO's out of our taxes.

Here's an idea.. did you know the RCMP are severely understaffed? Why not apply for a job? Encourage your ex-military friends to join.. Hell, even if just one joined and parked their cruiser out front, crime in the area would drop.

Do you know how the funding works now? And how much 1 Leo costs? Clearly not.

And as for training with the fire department. Do you know how to put on an SCBA, do a proper search, check for hazards, know how to self rescue, how to do vehicle extrication, medical assist, and traffic? That doesn't even get into TDG, S&R, Industrial FF, what to use to put out a fire, ventilation, Pump operations, etc.... theres a lot of training to get a good firefighter. As I said you dont just join and the next day your going into a structure fire.

So just like Fire Departments there would be a lot of training for these POC Peace Officers.

[JB_AOL]

Try 8 minutes to get into a department, and rolling within 90 seconds of getting there. Ive done that for most of my professional career while on call fairly easily. Definitely not an issue getting most places within the response area in 15 minutes or less if we have departments in every small town.

Sure.. :1041:..
And what happens when there's two calls? Or you happen to be outside your "zone" and it takes an hour to get there. hmm sounds like the same problem the LEO's have.

And what happens if we create a patrol and end up shooting someone at one of the neighbors? We already know these guys are armed, would you like us to just go give them hugs? Why not have more police, and get these criminals off the roads and create safer communities?

Once again.. You are not understanding the patrol... They have zero authority, zero ability to carry arms or even approach anyone. But having a presence (which is what you are suggesting is the deterrent) is enough.

And the 40 minutes response time is a conservative estimate. They took over an hour to get here for one of the robberies, and never made it all the way on the other. A high speed chase started as the locals ganged up on the bunch and ran them into town. Cops were supposed to set up a road block, but took it down once they found out the car was doing over 150. The crew got away and went on to go hold another household at gun point later that evening.

And how would've your "volunteers" changed that? a gun fight? a high speed chase with guns ablazing? This is a clear example of how untrained civilians more than likely escalated the situation, and could've seriously injured many innocent people.

Like I said, you need to take emotion out of this, and think logically.

Being preventive is much better than a bandaide reactive solution.

[Okotokian]

Sorry if you already answered this, but would these volunteer deputies of yours be armed and authorized to use deadly force?

[JB_AOL]

Do you know how the funding works now? And how much 1 Leo costs? Clearly not.

Actually.. I do. It helps to have 5 LEO's in the family.. And trust me, you have NO idea what it actually costs, and how underpaid they are.

And as for training with the fire department. Do you know how to put on an SCBA, do a proper search, check for hazards, know how to self rescue, how to do vehicle extrication, medical assist, and traffic? That doesn't even get into TDG, S&R, Industrial FF, what to use to put out a fire, ventilation, Pump operations, etc.... theres a lot of training to get a good firefighter. As I said you dont just join and the next day your going into a structure fire.

I guess that was over your head.. Anyways.. You're clear with your agenda.. Continue on.

[raab]

Sure.. :1041:..
And what happens when there's two calls? Or you happen to be outside your "zone" and it takes an hour to get there. hmm sounds like the same problem the LEO's have.



Once again.. You are not understanding the patrol... They have zero authority, zero ability to carry arms or even approach anyone. But having a presence (which is what you are suggesting is the deterrent) is enough.



And how would've your "volunteers" changed that? a gun fight? a high speed chase with guns ablazing? This is a clear example of how untrained civilians more than likely escalated the situation, and could've seriously injured many innocent people.

Like I said, you need to take emotion out of this, and think logically.

Being preventive is much better than a bandaide reactive solution.

You keep saying untrained, its like your purposely missing the point. These people would be trained quite well!

And how would the situation have turned out different? 6 officers could have pulled up on scene surrounded the suspects and arrested them within 15 minutes. 4-6 guys show up with Semi Auto rifles and shotguns you have your scene controlled fairly quickly. Instead these idiots pull a gun on the owners take off then go do it again later. Maybe we should round up these criminals and come put them in your neighborhood. See if your patrol idea will work on crackheads that dont think logically.

Also you seem to be miss the point that EVERY small town in Alberta would have a department. Meaning the response zones would be fairly small for quick response times. Thats the whole point of making it POC, so most municipalities could afford to staff departments.

[Redfrog]

So on one hand cops paid to do what cops do and on the other volunteer wannabes with less training, doing the cops job for free?

What could possibly go wrong?:thinking-006:

castle law and CCW would certainly increase the size of the volunteer force :)

[raab]

So on one hand cops paid to do what cops do and on the other volunteer wannabes with less training, doing the cops job for free?

What could possibly go wrong?:thinking-006:

castle law and CCW would certainly increase the size of the volunteer force :)

Cant have CCW in Canada. We dont need it according to city folk!

[fitzy]

Cant have CCW in Canada. We dont need it according to city folk!

Or rural folk. I've lived in the country or a very small town my whole life.

Honestly the only people I know that ever bring it up are the same guys that shoot absolutely ever living thing that crosses their path they can get away with. I shudder to think what they'd be like walking around with a gun in their pocket.

I'm sure most here are way more responsible. But those people are out there.

[Redfrog]

Cant have CCW in Canada. We dont need it according to city folk!

I thing you are wrong about that CCW. A lot of gangstas, ghetto goblins, drug gang members CCW. It is so common not much is said about it.

[fitzy]

You keep saying untrained, its like your purposely missing the point. These people would be trained quite well!

And how would the situation have turned out different? 6 officers could have pulled up on scene surrounded the suspects and arrested them within 15 minutes. 4-6 guys show up with Semi Auto rifles and shotguns you have your scene controlled fairly quickly. Instead these idiots pull a gun on the owners take off then go do it again later. Maybe we should round up these criminals and come put them in your neighborhood. See if your patrol idea will work on crackheads that dont think logically.

Also you seem to be miss the point that EVERY small town in Alberta would have a department. Meaning the response zones would be fairly small for quick response times. Thats the whole point of making it POC, so most municipalities could afford to staff departments.

So if we are spending the time and money to train them why not have actual police? Push for a provincial police force.

So what do they do if they take hostages? You seem to think that just because some neighbor shows up with a semi auto all is well. What if the bad guys have them too?

Does your training involve hostage situations and crowd control?

Start a neighbourhood watch. They work. It takes a presence. .... basically your plan without the years of training and no guns.

[JB_AOL]

You keep saying untrained, its like your purposely missing the point. These people would be trained quite well!

Yep.. because they are.. The amount of training they would have to take yearly would basically force them to be in courses almost every night on their own time, between family, work, etc.

And how would the situation have turned out different? 6 officers could have pulled up on scene surrounded the suspects and arrested them within 15 minutes. 4-6 guys show up with Semi Auto rifles and shotguns you have your scene controlled fairly quickly. Instead these idiots pull a gun on the owners take off then go do it again later.

lol.. So if the crackhead pulled the gun on the owners, you don't think they would shoot either the homeowner or the volunteers?

Maybe we should round up these criminals and come put them in your neighborhood.

Funny thing.. They used to be, . Guess what, all our neighbors were sick of it, so they started to lock their **** up, and taking away the easy pickens.. Guess what? Crime has gone down in our neighborhood. Amazing what happens when some common sense gets applied. Oh, and don't think it's just simple crimes, we've had high speed chases/shootings/etc.

Also you seem to be miss the point that EVERY small town in Alberta would have a department. Meaning the response zones would be fairly small for quick response times. Thats the whole point of making it POC, so most municipalities could afford to staff departments.

Bahaha.. You clearly don't understand the logistics/economics of running a "police department".. Why do you think there isn't an RCMP detachment in every town?

[JB_AOL]

So if we are spending the time and money to train them why not have actual police? Push for a provincial police force.

Because he wants to carry guns and have to ability to use them at any time he feels fit..

[fitzy]

Because he wants to carry guns and have to ability to use them at any time he feels fit..

Oh I'm well aware

[JB_AOL]

Start a neighbourhood watch. They work. It takes a presence. .... basically your plan without the years of training and no guns.

Works very well..

[raab]

So if we are spending the time and money to train them why not have actual police? Push for a provincial police force.

So what do they do if they take hostages? You seem to think that just because some neighbor shows up with a semi auto all is well. What if the bad guys have them too?

Does your training involve hostage situations and crowd control?

Start a neighbourhood watch. They work. It takes a presence. .... basically your plan without the years of training and no guns.

They really dont work. Several people have been spotted and nothing has been done about it.

If theres a hostage situation you would have a protocol to follow in that event. Just like there would be protocols to follow for most events you'd be called for.

And the cost of training 1 fulltime LEO is to much for most communities. Let alone training a department full. POC Peace Officers would be a far more cost effective solution and ensure adequate staffing across the province.

[raab]

Works very well..

Says the guy with 2200 officers within 40 minutes of his place.

[fitzy]

They really dont work. Several people have been spotted and nothing has been done about it.

If theres a hostage situation you would have a protocol to follow in that event. Just like there would be protocols to follow for most events you'd be called for.

And the cost of training 1 fulltime LEO is to much for most communities. Let alone training a department full. POC Peace Officers would be a far more cost effective solution and ensure adequate staffing across the province.

Oh so you're not really training them then? Just like a weekend camp or what? Sort of a this is what a bad guy looks like here's your gun and badge routine?

.... sounds like that's gonna work out:thinking-006:

If they're done right they do work. Do you have a neighbourhood watch program? Or just a neighbor that saw someone? Because those are 2 different things.

[bobtodrick]

I voted no.

Too risky, too many rambos will apply.

x2 Great way to guarantee some fatherless (most applicants will be male) children when things go south.

[JB_AOL]

Says the guy with 2200 officers within 40 minutes of his place.

And yet.. Those 2200 officers still were not able to curtail the crime we had. Hell, Just like your community, they could care less, as there were more serious crimes they were handling.

It was our community members that decided enough was enough. In fact, You can't go down any street/alley/pathway in our neighborhood without at least one camera catching you, not to mention the step up in security systems. Between the vehicle thefts/b&E's/etc, it was rare for a night to go by without something happening. A couple well placed GPS trackers led to some high speed chases, and guess what? Crime is now down in our neighborhood. Word got out, that the easy pickens were not more..

Yet, the police have not increased patrols.

[raab]

Oh so you're not really training them then? Just like a weekend camp or what? Sort of a this is what a bad guy looks like here's your gun and badge routine?

.... sounds like that's gonna work out:thinking-006:

If they're done right they do work. Do you have a neighbourhood watch program? Or just a neighbor that saw someone? Because those are 2 different things.

Are you trying to say the Reserves and Volunteer Fire Departments aren't trained because they train during the week and on weekends? And Neighborhood watches only work if people get arrested. They dont work when people steal different trucks every few days, change license plates, and pull guns on people.

[raab]

And yet.. Those 2200 officers still were not able to curtail the crime we had. Hell, Just like your community, they could care less, as there were more serious crimes they were handling.

It was our community members that decided enough was enough. In fact, You can't go down any street/alley/pathway in our neighborhood without at least one camera catching you, not to mention the step up in security systems. Between the vehicle thefts/b&E's/etc, it was rare for a night to go by without something happening. A couple well placed GPS trackers led to some high speed chases, and guess what? Crime is now down in our neighborhood. Word got out, that the easy pickens were not more..

Yet, the police have not increased patrols.

I know, how about we cut funding to the City of Calgary and use that money on rural departments. We'll take Calgary down to 350 officers, while the rest of the Province gets staffed more appropriately. See how quick you want your POC Peace Officers then.

Edit: I'll add if you feel it is a better solution to cut funding to the major centers to more adequately fund rural departments I'd be fine with not having POC police.

[fitzy]

Are you trying to say the Reserves and Volunteer Fire Departments aren't trained because they train during the week and on weekends? And Neighborhood watches only work if people get arrested. They dont work when people steal different trucks every few days, change license plates, and pull guns on people.

I'm sorry Raab but do you not see the difference between a volunteer firefighter and volunteer police officer?

Last I was at a fire nobody was trying to shoot me while I was putting it out.

Weekend and evening training isn't going to cover that.

[raab]

I'm sorry Raab but do you not see the difference between a volunteer firefighter and volunteer police officer?

Last I was at a fire nobody was trying to shoot me while I was putting it out.

Weekend and evening training isn't going to cover that.

It takes time to get trained, but once trained its not hard to keep up at it. Which is why I said it'd probably take 1 to 2 years before we seen members actively showing up to scenes. Could probably be trained fairly quickly how to do patrols though, and keep adding from there.

Also you seem to think that firefighting isn't dangerous. Maybe you should look at how many volunteer firemen have lost their life on calls.

[Okotokian]

OK Raab, I'll go with your idea. So how many hours of training per year do you estimate it would take to train up a volunteer officer who can competently handle hostage situations, take downs of armed assailants, know the law, follow proper search and arrest procedures that stand up in court, and have the training to safely and effectively use their weapons, as well as make the decision on when it is appropriate to kill someone? And do this, unlike volunteer firemen, alone.

My second question is, how many people within 15 minutes of you will undertake the training and be on call and available at any time? If the answer is none, then this is all moot. As a measure, how many people near you are enlisted in the Armed Forces reserves?

Listen, I'm not pooh-poohing some sort of auxiliary force. But your proposal would have them doing the absolute most critical and dangerous task that police officers do, sometimes not very well even with all their training.

[fitzy]

Are you trying to say the Reserves and Volunteer Fire Departments aren't trained because they train during the week and on weekends? And Neighborhood watches only work if people get arrested. They dont work when people steal different trucks every few days, change license plates, and pull guns on people.

Your plan into help with apprehension is it not? One of the most difficult and dangerous parts of being a police officer ... You think Tuesday and Thursday night for an hour and every other weekend for a couple months is going to bring someone up to police officer levels?

Or do you want some untrained warrior wanna be hero running in guns blazing when some guy has a gun out around your wife?


I'd rethink the neighborhood watch thing.

I know it doesn't lead to ccw but you can't have everything.

[fitzy]

It takes time to get trained, but once trained its not hard to keep up at it. Which is why I said it'd probably take 1 to 2 years before we seen members actively showing up to scenes. Could probably be trained fairly quickly how to do patrols though, and keep adding from there.

Also you seem to think that firefighting isn't dangerous. Maybe you should look at how many volunteer firemen have lost their life on calls.

I was a volunteer firefighter Raab. Thanks for pointing out that fire is hot.

It still doesn't shoot at you.

So 2 years of weekend and evening training? Who's paying for this?

Edit. If you want to go on patrols set up a meeting with the RCMP they'll be more than happy to help with a neighbourhood watch program.

Patrol away.

[raab]

OK Raab, I'll go with your idea. So how many hours of training per year do you estimate it would take to train up a volunteer officer who can competently handle hostage situations, take downs of armed assailants, know the law, follow proper search and arrest procedures that stand up in court, and have the training to safely and effectively use their weapons, as well as make the decision on when it is appropriate to kill someone? And do this, unlike volunteer firemen, alone.

My second question is, how many people within 15 minutes of you will undertake the training and be on call and available at any time? If the answer is none, then this is all moot. As a measure, how many people near you are enlisted in the Armed Forces reserves?

Listen, I'm not pooh-poohing some sort of auxiliary force. But your proposal would have them doing the absolute most critical and dangerous task that police officers do, sometimes not very well even with all their training.

The whole point of POC is that the police would NOT respond alone. There would always be at least 2 members going, and depending on the call preferably 4-6. If we couldn't get the numbers you wait and go in with an RCMP officer or page in another department close by. To meet up before going to the scene.


As for training an initial paid 180 hours. To learn the basics before being allowed to patrol. After that 3 hours a week plus six 8 hour weekends in the first year for a total of 380 hours. An option should also be allowed for those who could take a full time course to do it over 1 month. This is just to get people ready for scenes, their training would continue into the next year with weekly 3 hour training but not have to commit to weekends. All training would be paid at normal wage. This is just a spitball of an idea of how the system could work. Obviously it would be open for consultation. Would definitely want input from both the RCMP and Solicitor General on what they feel would be the best for training needs and where we should focus our training efforts.

And my neighbor just recently got out of the reserves due to the drive, but was with the main force until his retirement. Several people I know would be open to this as a good way to serve the community.

[raab]

Your plan into help with apprehension is it not? One of the most difficult and dangerous parts of being a police officer ... You think Tuesday and Thursday night for an hour and every other weekend for a couple months is going to bring someone up to police officer levels?

Or do you want some untrained warrior wanna be hero running in guns blazing when some guy has a gun out around your wife?


I'd rethink the neighborhood watch thing.

I know it doesn't lead to ccw but you can't have everything.

How often do you thing the police train for apprehension? Between ticketing, fatalities, domestics, mental health, and all the other calls they respond to? I don't think they spend a lot of time on apprehension training. They do use it daily, but were taught the basics in depot and built on it from there. The same way a POC volunteer force would.

[raab]

I was a volunteer firefighter Raab. Thanks for pointing out that fire is hot.

It still doesn't shoot at you.

So 2 years of weekend and evening training? Who's paying for this?

Edit. If you want to go on patrols set up a meeting with the RCMP they'll be more than happy to help with a neighbourhood watch program.

Patrol away.

Maybe, maybe not. Lots of firemen in the States have been shot at.

[The Spank]

bring in castle law and the thieves and home invaders will think twice before committing crimes. The thieves don't fear our police or the courts, which is why rural crime keeps increasing.

100%!!!

[JB_AOL]

The whole point of POC is that the police would NOT respond alone. There would always be at least 2 members going, and depending on the call preferably 4-6. If we couldn't get the numbers you wait and go in with an RCMP officer or page in another department close by. To meet up before going to the scene.

I thought the point was to improve response time? Now they wait for police and respond with police? Doesn't really change anything from right now, does it?

[fitzy]

The whole point of POC is that the police would NOT respond alone. There would always be at least 2 members going, and depending on the call preferably 4-6. If we couldn't get the numbers you wait and go in with an RCMP officer or page in another department close by. To meet up before going to the scene.


As for training an initial paid 180 hours. To learn the basics before being allowed to patrol. After that 3 hours a week plus six 8 hour weekends in the first year for a total of 380 hours. An option should also be allowed for those who could take a full time course to do it over 1 month. This is just to get people ready for scenes, their training would continue into the next year with weekly 3 hour training but not have to commit to weekends. All training would be paid at normal wage. This is just a spitball of an idea of how the system could work. Obviously it would be open for consultation. Would definitely want input from both the RCMP and Solicitor General on what they feel would be the best for training needs and where we should focus our training efforts.

And my neighbor just recently got out of the reserves due to the drive, but was with the main force until his retirement. Several people I know would be open to this as a good way to serve the community.

So if my tax dollars are going to pay for something I want a provincial police force. Not people who failed the psych test

I don't see volenteerimg as the way to go. Might work ok. Right up until a shot is fired or there's a chase.... or one of the million what it's that are out there when dealing with liability. There are better options.

Rural crime and justice are pretty much my main concern in provincial politics. I've spoken with Richard Starke about it many times. It's the number 1 call his office gets. I told him straight out that I don't care who it is or what party they belong to. The first person to put crime and justice reform front and center will get my vote in any up coming election.

That's what is impacting the people around me on a daily basis. We are doing what we can.

[fitzy]

Maybe, maybe not. Lots of firemen in the States have been shot at.

Rural alberta isn't the States Raab.

[sgill808]

Because he wants to carry guns and have to ability to use them at any time he feels fit..

This is exactly it.

[bobtodrick]

Raab...so your 'volunteers' will have to go through a course, pass it and take regular updates to their training.
Uhhh...just like a police officer??
Anyone willing to do all that, and then work a shift on a regular basis might, just might thing...I can do exactly what Raab is describing...AND GET PAID FOR IT.
Why would anyone (as you suggest) do nearly everything a LEO does, trainingwise and not just do it for a job.
I don't see anyone taking all the training your suggesting to do it once a week or so...it's going to be full time job commitment they way you describe it.

[bobalong]

Although raabs idea may not be perfect the fact is it appears, he like many other of us rural people are desperate for help. Many of us know what we could like to do, but we are not there....yet. Please don't insult us by even mentioning the RCMP.....THEY ARE COMPLETELY USELESS with regard to rural crime.

A provincial police force is the only thing that is going to help, the RCMP only care about gun crime, speed traps, and photo-ops at the school or town parade. Something to try and make them look involved in the community in a positive way, or collect money, when their actions prove they couldn't care less about the community they live in.

An RCMP officer at the request of our town council came out to give a talk on rural crime. All he could talk about was what we should be doing, cameras, lock stuff up etc, all good ideas but when I asked what they were doing the response was shocking.

I asked how many night patrols they had in a week in our area, the answer was none, they don't have a shift past 6:00 PM, just an officer on call. I was not asking for specific times just generally. Then I asked if you (the RCMP) have determined that about 95% of the theft happens between 1 and 5AM how do you expect to stop theft and catch anybody when there are no RCMP working. His response was.........somewhat apologetic but completely useless.

After the scenario a couple of weeks ago around Lloyd where three ladies were killed by a truck thief, the idea of punting the RCMP would seem like a necessity. They are not only not preventing crime, in this case it would seem they actually contributed to it....the death of three ladies. The RCMP then release a statement about the vehicle chase that they were just following policy, and then announced to vehicle thieves that they only chase stolen vehicles for a few minutes and then let them go.........the apparent laziness of the RCMP is only rivaled by their stupidity with regard to vehicle theft.

I don't know how such a respected police force could turn into such a bunch of pencil pushers, but what I do know is that they have to go and the sooner the better!!

[covey ridge]

I live in central alberta east. People are fed up with the crime and I think it's just a matter of time till someone takes the law into their own hands. Police are basically nowhere to be seen and response times are ridiculous. I little more patrol time would definitely help. If the cops would get out at night and patrol the small towns and pull over the odd guy late at night on the highways I'm sure they would be stumble upon the odd criminal. You see them make a pass thru town at 3pm on a Sunday...never at night. I'm not sure what the logic is. Alot of people out here have given up on the police and are talking crazy about vigilante type action and I hardly blame them. Sad state of affairs.

I agree that there are not enough RCMP to police rural Alberta. Since the RCMP often have only have one member working alone, the safest place for him/her is to remain in the detachment. I think rural Albertans deserve more police and if the RCMP can not supply them, then there should be a Provincial Police Force.

[covey ridge]

Is it better if I just shoot the guy who shows up at my place with a gun? If you dont want TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS doing the work then I want castle doctrine and the right to carry.

I think that this is what this is about.

[covey ridge]

No one will ever tell me that i have no right to protect my family

I will tell you that you have that right!

[fitzy]

I think that this is what this is about.

I think that's obvious.

[JB_AOL]

I agree that there are not enough RCMP to police rural Alberta. Since the RCMP often have only have one member working alone, the safest place for him/her is to remain in the detachment. I think rural Albertans deserve more police and if the RCMP can not supply them, then there should be a Provincial Police Force.

I agree, but it all comes down to money.. RCMP can't supply the needed manpower as they don't have the money to supply it. A provincial police force will be no different, unless we are willing to pay for it. So why not just pay more money to RCMP, and untie their hands... Fix the legal system.

[covey ridge]

And the 40 minutes response time is a conservative estimate. They took over an hour to get here for one of the robberies, and never made it all the way on the other.

So if it would take the officer in charge of your group of volunteers that^^^^ long to get to your situation, would you attempt to resolve an armed standoff without him/her being present?

[covey ridge]

. 4-6 guys show up with Semi Auto rifles and shotguns you have your scene controlled fairly quickly. Instead these idiots pull a gun on the owners take off then go do it again later. Maybe we should round up these criminals and come put them in your neighborhood. See if your patrol idea will work on crackheads that dont think logically.


So how would you control this scene quickly? Sure you and your volunteers have your rifles and shot guns, but your perps are crack heads with guns of their own and they now have the landowners wife and children at gun point and they don't want to give up. What do you do then? You may be six against two? Well what now? Are you going to shoot it out? Are you going to negotiate?

Then one of the perps demands you back off or one of the hostages die. or they are going to take a hostage and the next move is up to you. Well volunteer, what is your next move?

[covey ridge]

I agree, but it all comes down to money.. RCMP can't supply the needed manpower as they don't have the money to supply it. A provincial police force will be no different, unless we are willing to pay for it. So why not just pay more money to RCMP, and untie their hands... Fix the legal system.

I am willing to pay more!

[coastalhunter]

I support vigilante justice.

[bobalong]

I agree that there are not enough RCMP to police rural Alberta. Since the RCMP often have only have one member working alone, the safest place for him/her is to remain in the detachment. I think rural Albertans deserve more police and if the RCMP can not supply them, then there should be a Provincial Police Force.

The "safest place", I wouldn't want to see an RCMP hurt or anyone else, but we don't pay the RCMP to be safe, we pay them to keep us safe!

[Rancid Crabtree]

I'd be willing to respond to a 911 call in my area ( say within 10 miles )
On a voluntary basis, just because someone needs help.
The technology exists to have a local quick response system in place, the trouble is modern police view the public as the adversary rather than allies.
The truth is most calls police respond to could be handled by a couple neighbors stopping in. Then if needed the local "deputy" can ask a officer to attend when needed.
Examples would be first contact at a domestic, accompanying EMS on calls where they want protection, accompany a officer who would otherwise have to wait for a on call officer.
Who of you rural residents wouldn't be willing to respond to a neighbors 911 call while they wait for RCMP ?
I'd envision a pre screened group that agrees to be first on scene within their local community and work alongside the police. I also advocate a Alberta Policd force.

[possum]

This is the dumbest suggestion I have heard in a long time.
And yes I live in rural sk where it takes the police an hour or more to arrive on a 911 call.

There are No Such Things as an easy call. I guess many of you have forgotten or are maybe to young to remember the Mayerthrope Alberta Tragedy....4 officers initially went to the farm to assist bailiffs in trying to repossess a truck, the end result 4 officers shot to death.

Spiritwood SK , 2 officers called to an assault , a chase took place.....End Result 2 officers shot to death.

Those were 2 pretty straight forward calls.....That ended in 6 trained officers killed in the line of duty..... Not Wannabe Cops....HMMMM

[JB_AOL]

I am willing to pay more!

And so am I.. But I would only pay for a proper force (RCMP or provincial), not these POC wannabe cops that OP is talking about.

[JB_AOL]

This is the dumbest suggestion I have heard in a long time.
And yes I live in rural sk where it takes the police an hour or more to arrive on a 911 call.

There are No Such Things as an easy call. I guess many of you have forgotten or are maybe to young to remember the Mayerthrope Alberta Tragedy....4 officers initially went to the farm to assist bailiffs in trying to repossess a truck, the end result 4 officers shot to death.

Spiritwood SK , 2 officers called to an assault , a chase took place.....End Result 2 officers shot to death.

Those were 2 pretty straight forward calls.....That ended in 6 trained officers killed in the line of duty..... Not Wannabe Cops....HMMMM

Bingo..

But I'm sure if some Farmer came running over with his shotgun, it would've ended w/o a conflict.. sigh..

[huntsfurfish]

A rural well run crime watch group would be the best bet and least expensive.

As the last few posters suggested paying more would be probably be better bet but would be very expensive.

Another option (also expensive) but maybe more doable would be a rural task force numbering 30-40 members(maybe smaller or larger)Mounties or Provincial. They could be moved as needed to trouble areas to patrol and enforce and help set up good crime watch and locking practices. Then moved to another area.
They could be used in other situations as well when needed. Maybe even split the force to cover more areas and such as well. Some thing to consider. And would be easier to lobby for.

[pikeman06]

Look at the ridiculous amount of tax we are all paying. To say the money isn't there for a few more properly trained professional police officers is just a lie. The police force generates a fair bit of revenue on their own. Everywhere you look there's people texting and driving, no seat belts, burnt out headlights, beer cans in the ditch, speeding, running stop signs you name it. Surely if the police were on patrol enforcing the above infractions they couldn't help but run into the real criminals as well. There is too much liability for the general public to be expected to "serve and protect" too many things can go wrong and if there is no witness it's not going to go anywhere in court anyways.

[bobalong]

This is the dumbest suggestion I have heard in a long time.
And yes I live in rural sk where it takes the police an hour or more to arrive on a 911 call.

There are No Such Things as an easy call. I guess many of you have forgotten or are maybe to young to remember the Mayerthrope Alberta Tragedy....4 officers initially went to the farm to assist bailiffs in trying to repossess a truck, the end result 4 officers shot to death.

Spiritwood SK , 2 officers called to an assault , a chase took place.....End Result 2 officers shot to death.

Those were 2 pretty straight forward calls.....That ended in 6 trained officers killed in the line of duty..... Not Wannabe Cops....HMMMM

Neither of your scenarios have anything to do with vehicle or other theft. I would not call an assault a straight forward call, and the fact that 4 officers went to a call is ANYTHING but straight forward.

[raab]

Raab...so your 'volunteers' will have to go through a course, pass it and take regular updates to their training.
Uhhh...just like a police officer??
Anyone willing to do all that, and then work a shift on a regular basis might, just might thing...I can do exactly what Raab is describing...AND GET PAID FOR IT.
Why would anyone (as you suggest) do nearly everything a LEO does, trainingwise and not just do it for a job.
I don't see anyone taking all the training your suggesting to do it once a week or so...it's going to be full time job commitment they way you describe it.

Why do Volunteer firefighters volunteer? Because they want to help out in the community, already have a decent job, and dont feel like moving to a big city.

[raab]

So if it would take the officer in charge of your group of volunteers that^^^^ long to get to your situation, would you attempt to resolve an armed standoff without him/her being present?

Im talking about people being trained to handle the situation. You would wait for an RCMP officer if only 1 or 2 members responded.

[Don_Parsons]

It's to bad that we can't lobby the government for sitfer penalties on crime.

B&E's and theft,,, a longer term served depending on the amount being stole.

We could bring more enforcement into the picture, but its not realy addressing the issue of the crime its self.

If someone steals a $5000 vehicle and gets 1 year for every $1000 taken, then the criminals will think twice before they act.

So protest for larger penalties with the option to incress or decrease what is needed year by year.

I'm game for lobby idea.

Don

[Redfrog]

The moral of the famous Story, ‘Who will Bell the Cat’ is ‘Easier Said than done”.

There lived some mice in a certain house. There was no cat in the house. So the mice moved about quite freely and ate whatever they got in the kitchen. The master of the house felt very much disturbed. So one day he brought a cat to kill them.
The cat was a good hunter. So the mice were now in great fear. They could not come out of their holes.
At last they held a meeting to decide how they might get rid of the cat. But none could suggest a suitable plan. At last a young mouse said, “Friends, let us tie a bell to the neck of the cat. When the cat moves, the bell will ring. Then we shall run away.”
“It is really a very good plan,” said all the mice in great joy.
But there was an old mouse. He was all along silent. Now he said, “It is no doubt a good plan. But who will bell the cat?”
There was no reply. The joy of the mice disappeared in a moment. They left the place.
Moral: Easier said than done.

Who is going to volunteer to put themselves in harm's way several hours a month.
It won't be the folks on here who ask where to go for elk cause they had no time all year to scout or get permission. Are they gonna have time to get shot at?
Or how about the farmer/rancher trying to beat the weather for his crops or keep his livestock from burning alive in a prairie fire. [BTW anyone bother to eve follow up on what is happening with the Suffield fire?] Doubt they will commit to this plan.

I couldn't tell you one of my neighbours who would have time for this plan.

[covey ridge]

And so am I.. But I would only pay for a proper force (RCMP or provincial), not these POC wannabe cops that OP is talking about.

I would not pay a cent for a wannabe. If we need more police, hire them.

[Bigwoodsman]

Three words to police your property

Smith and Wesson!

BW

[covey ridge]

Im talking about people being trained to handle the situation. You would wait for an RCMP officer if only 1 or 2 members responded.

So there is a situation that involves armed crack heads and you and your wannabes would engage without the supervision of a real officer?

You originally seemed to want to work with the police and now you think you can handle it without them?

You are full of yourself. You are the type that I would never want involved in any kind of police activity.

I would prefer paying full priced officers instead of bargain basement wannabes.

If you really think your idea is worthy of consideration, take it to the RCMP and see if they will buy into your scheme and be sure to tell them your thoughts on CC.

[covey ridge]

I am not so worried about some wannabe getting shot but someone getting shot by the wannabe or escalating a situation and make it more dangerous.

[Don_Parsons]

So the questions I ask would be alternative ideas at thinking out property crime.

What steps are needed to curb crime with out having conformations with them.

I mentioned this on another thread, it's not the cops to blame for the rise in crime since its been reported that the same 5 to 7% of the folks involved in these property crimes are the revolving door crooks that keep committing these crimes over and over and over.

The police are pooped out since they arrest, then the crooks get off on a mister meaner or limited time if they plea bargain on 1 or 2 charges less the 100 filed against them.

How does a group of people protest for changes to the law for stiffer penalties,,, this my friends seems like the practical idea going forward.

The cost of adding more police is a ok idea, but it comes at a forever expense,,, of course so does the idea of housing property crime criminals.

If the penalties on crimes committed increases,,, maybe it will send a message to the rest of the want-a-bees.

Of course this is just an idea and hopefully more wrong than right.

Don

[bobtodrick]

Why do Volunteer firefighters volunteer? Because they want to help out in the community, already have a decent job, and dont feel like moving to a big city.

And as others have mentioned...fires don't shoot back and they don't require all the hours of training that even you admit to.
Big difference in most peoples mind between trying to put out a fire at someone's home's, maybe saving a life in the process and getting shot at trying to save someones ATV from being pinched.
But have at 'er...it's obvious from the comments as well as the poll that most think this a stupid idea....but you obviously are convinced it the smartest idea mankind has come up with.

[fitzy]

It's to bad that we can't lobby the government for sitfer penalties on crime.

B&E's and theft,,, a longer term served depending on the amount being stole.

We could bring more enforcement into the picture, but its not realy addressing the issue of the crime its self.

If someone steals a $5000 vehicle and gets 1 year for every $1000 taken, then the criminals will think twice before they act.

So protest for larger penalties with the option to incress or decrease what is needed year by year.

I'm game for lobby idea.

Don

If you aren't you should be. That's what your elected representatives are for.

[Don_Parsons]

If you aren't you should be. That's what your elected representatives are for.

Dam, I forgot about them. Thanks for the heads up as I'll have a chat with our guy to see what he thinks,,, I'm sure he knows of folks in his riding that have had these kind of crimes happen to them. Maybe they have robbed them selves.

It might take a few folks and a Ryan Jespersen show to get the feel of what Albertans think about "trying" to lobby the government for stiffer penalties.


In our 100 km area there would of been 10 or 20 vehicles taken, and about double that in brake-ins. That's a big difference from what was going on 3 or 4 years ago.

Lately we have heard of car jacking and home invasions while the property are at home,,, 3 happened this month alone.

I was never worried about this crap when I was younger, but times are changing and I'm not comfortable dealing with comfortations.

We think different as we age,,, and who knows what these clowns will do when they get boxed in.

3 months ago a nabour was following 2 trucks down a gravel road when heading home with his 9 year old boy after a hockey game,,, the one truck stopped in the middle of the road as the driver of that vehicle walked back to his truck as he asked if they were ok.

The dude started to freek out yelling and screaming at our nabour and accused him of stocking them,,, the passenger of that truck jumped out with a knife and stabbed both tires on the nabours truck.

It freaked him right out,,, he feared for his kid and him self as they both bolted thankfully.

The cops were called and later that night they found the 2nd truck that was pulling the horse trailer at the far end of the road they were on.

The cops said that both trucks were stolen that night, and they robbed a farm not to far from where our nabour had his altercation.

He's still shook up from this today, he truely feared for his young sons life that night,,, now he's afraid to even stop and help anyone in his travels now.

So sad that these clowns took the trust of humans away from this awesome genitalmen and his kid,,, they are the type of people that would help anyone any where at any time,,, now they fear their every move after that ordeal.

2 more stories I heard not long after that of folks that stopped to help others that ended up getting their vehicles stolen when trying to help them out along the highways.

Even I think twice about stopping my self since I'm programmed to help anyone that looks like they are in trouble,,, I'm not sure if I can deal with a fast acting situation any more,,, even if I could,,, it troubles me thinking of what could happen if this got out of control.

I still have the trust of human kind, but I'm on high alert the whole time till I get a feel of what they say and how they act...

Don at thinking things threw a bit more with folks I meet up with along the roads and highways in my travels

[sewerrat]

You can hire all the police officers you want but I don't think it is going to solve the crime.

It is our Justice system that needs to get tougher, a slap on a wrist isn't going to stop a criminal from offending again.

Most of these criminals are being caught, get tossed in the klink till mom, dad grandpa grandma bails them out, on promise to appear before the courts, the criminal doesn't show up for court because he/she is busy stealing and robbing.
Now they have a warrant out for their arrest, get caught thrown in the klink, and so it goes round and round , then finally they do show up in court they are being locked up again for 3-4 weeks and off they go again.

I feel bad for all those cops it takes a lot of time and effort and a massive paper trail to bring these idiots to justice so their hands are tied.

We need to get after the government and talk to you MLA to get a thougher justice system.

[Bigwoodsman]

You can hire all the police officers you want but I don't think it is going to solve the crime.

It is our Justice system that needs to get tougher, a slap on a wrist isn't going to stop a criminal from offending again.

Most of these criminals are being caught, get tossed in the klink till mom, dad grandpa grandma bails them out, on promise to appear before the courts, the criminal doesn't show up for court because he/she is busy stealing and robbing.
Now they have a warrant out for their arrest, get caught thrown in the klink, and so it goes round and round , then finally they do show up in court they are being locked up again for 3-4 weeks and off they go again.

I feel bad for all those cops it takes a lot of time and effort and a massive paper trail to bring these idiots to justice so their hands are tied.

We need to get after the government and talk to you MLA to get a thougher justice system.

It's called the legal system not a justice system.

As long as we have politicians who put their party first and electorate second nothing will change. The criminals have more rights than the victims.

The police do the best they can, and the lawyers and judges just turn the criminals back out to repeat the crimes.

Until we find a politician ready to change the laws and truly put some justice in outd legal system nothing can be done to stop, reduce, or elkmare crime?

BW

[brslk]

I keep picture Homer Simpson and his gang of vigilantes walking around with a pillowcase full of doorknobs for some reason. Not that the original idea doesn't have merit, but I can foresee a few problems coming about.

I'd sign up for that. I already have a pillow case and could round up some door knobs. (of course the wife will be mad when she can't get out of the house anymore)

[roper1]

This is the dumbest suggestion I have heard in a long time.
And yes I live in rural sk where it takes the police an hour or more to arrive on a 911 call.

There are No Such Things as an easy call. I guess many of you have forgotten or are maybe to young to remember the Mayerthrope Alberta Tragedy....4 officers initially went to the farm to assist bailiffs in trying to repossess a truck, the end result 4 officers shot to death.

Spiritwood SK , 2 officers called to an assault , a chase took place.....End Result 2 officers shot to death.

Those were 2 pretty straight forward calls.....That ended in 6 trained officers killed in the line of duty..... Not Wannabe Cops....HMMMM

With all due respect for the fallen officers, your examples illustrate the problem: the so-called trained experts (police) were killed by the expertise of the bad guys. I don't advocate a militia, but there is a degree of 'Meh' deeply embedded in RCMP rural crime investigations that has to change. The OP is just spitballing, preferable to sitting in your cruiser telling citizens to call their insurance.

[YoteStopper]

A better idea would be to allow people to defend themselves and their property without being prosecuted for it (in the case of actual self defense), the criminals feel way to safe these days maybe the chance of getting shot would help deter them. Most of these losers wouldn't be up for that.

[JB_AOL]

I don't advocate a militia, but there is a degree of 'Meh' deeply embedded in RCMP rural crime investigations that has to change.

And in all honesty.. Wouldn't you have that same feeling if you spent months "chasing" down some theft ring, catch them, only for them to be released a day or two later with a slap on the wrist? It's a cycle.. And it's why there's this feeling of "meh".

Is it right.. No, but when the very legal system is basically creating work for you, it's very frustrating.

[hillbillyreefer]

And the brainwashing is almost complete. Only the state can protect its citizens from the criminals the state refuses to punish.

Why is the most vocal opposition to this coming from people with locations stating they are from the city? It’s kind of like raab, not being a farmer, screaming out his support for bill6 because only the state can protect farmers.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Think of the money the government could make off the sale of hunting tags for drug dealers... :thinking-006:

In some areas, there could even be supplementals!

[Scott N]

I'd sign up for that. I already have a pillow case and could round up some door knobs. (of course the wife will be mad when she can't get out of the house anymore)

Kent Brockman: Mr. Simpson, how do you respond to the charge that petty vandalism such as graffiti is down 80%, while heavy sack beatings are up a shocking 900%.
Homer: Oh people can come up with statistics to prove anything Kent. Forfty percent of all people know that.



lol!

[JB_AOL]

Why is the most vocal opposition to this coming from people with locations stating they are from the city? .

Why does it matter where we are from?? I consider the current legal system ****, unless rural communities use a different system?

In case you haven't noticed, Crime also isn't just a rural thing. Creating a bandaid solution for rural communities is NOT the answer. FIX THE LEGAL SYSTEM. end of story.. We ALL need to get loud, and show our disappreciation for the current system.

But sure.. Turn this into an US (city) vs them (rural) thing.

[hillbillyreefer]

Why does it matter where we are from?? I consider the current legal system ****, unless rural communities use a different system?

In case you haven't noticed, Crime also isn't just a rural thing. Creating a bandaid solution for rural communities is NOT the answer. FIX THE LEGAL SYSTEM. end of story.. We ALL need to get loud, and show our disappreciation for the current system.

But sure.. Turn this into an US (city) vs them (rural) thing.

I have no problem with fixing the legal system. It won’t happen, but it’s nice to dream, eh?

It’s not really us vs them, more like local government doing what it feels is best for it’s citizens. I have no problem with any local government determining its direction, after all blue rings are beautiful. Why do you have issues with rural people determining our direction?

[JB_AOL]

I have no problem with fixing the legal system. It won’t happen, but it’s nice to dream, eh?

It’s not really us vs them, more like local government doing what it feels is best for it’s citizens. I have no problem with any local government determining its direction, after all blue rings are beautiful. Why do you have issues with rural people determining our direction?

I don't have a problem with all people determining our province's direction..

but.. You said it best..

it’s nice to dream, eh

That's pretty much what this is POC topic is..

[Yaha Tinda]

....scumbags victmizing innocent people.

Are they actually innocent?

[silverdoctor]

Some of you are funny...

Canadian jails are over capacity, people convicted of smaller crimes are sharing cells with convicted murders. Do we build more jails? Send people convicted of theft to jail so they can learn to be better criminals? Why are thieves getting a slap on the wrist? Probably because there's nowhere to put them.

Adam Kargus, 29, serving a 165 day sentence for using stolen IDs to buy cellphones - locked up with a convicted murderer with a history of violence. Beaten to death in his own cell, did a life sentence for stealing ID's. Yeah, we got problems alright. 270 people killed in Canadian jails in the last 5 years. What's the answer? No idea.

So come up with some answers instead of being negative.

[JB_AOL]

Canadian jails are over capacity, people convicted of smaller crimes are sharing cells with convicted murders. Do we build more jails? Send people convicted of theft to jail so they can learn to be better criminals? Why are thieves getting a slap on the wrist? Probably because there's nowhere to put them.

That's the thing.. It's cyclical.

Criminals aren't afraid to go to jail, They know what they can do (illegally) to only get a slap on the wrist.

Also let's face it, they get it better while incarcerated than ALOT of regular hard working law abiding civilians.

IMHO.. You go to jail.. you lose all your rights.. Take away their "country clubs", and throw them in a tent with nothing but their clothes and a blanket. It would only take one winter for these criminals to want to be apart of society again.

Then ontop of that you have to pay for your stay.. Put them to work. Make them NOT want to return.

IMHO again.. Sheriff Joe had it right..