Hunting using E-bikes, sheep hunt

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

Hey all, it's been a while since my last post on here. We've been spending lots of time away from computers!

If any of you are curious about using E-bikes to access hunting spots, we just released a podcast episode on our week long sheep trip where we used fat tire e-bikes.
They're a game changer for certain areas for sure.

Hope you like it.
Cheers.
John
www.highlanderhunting.podbean.com

[Headdamage]

Yep, I'm interested and when I asked forestry about it they said they are covered by ATV bans in some areas. Seem a bit confusing figuring out where you can and can't use them.

[Okotokian]

I imagine you can use an e-bike anywhere you can use a bike. There is no combustion engine, no spark. It's just an electric assist to your pedaling. I used one for a few days in Europe when I damaged my knee on a regular bike. They are great! Pedalling uphill in a headwind and it can feel like you are pedaling downhill in calm weather. Definitely one in my future. I had a street one. A mountain e-bike would be amazing. And they are only going to get lighter and have even better range, but I could do 60 km in a day and have tons of battery left over.

[MathewsArcher]

For what its worth I asked the same question of an AEP Public Lands Officer and was told it fit the definition of an OHV and was told that it would fall under the same restriction for use etc.


“off-highway vehicle” means any motorized mode of
transportation built for cross-country travel on land, water,
snow, ice or marsh or swamp land or on other natural
terrain and, without limiting the generality of the
foregoing, includes, when specifically designed for such
travel,
(i) 4-wheel drive vehicles,
(ii) low pressure tire vehicles,
(iii) motorcycles and related 2-wheel vehicles,
(iv) amphibious machines,
(v) all terrain vehicles,
(vi) miniature motor vehicles,
(vii) snow vehicles,
(viii) minibikes, and
(ix) any other means of transportation that is propelled by
any power other than muscular power or wind,
but does not include
(x) motor boats, or
(xi) any other vehicle exempted from being an offhighway
vehicle by regulation;

[elkhunter11]

I imagine you can use an e-bike anywhere you can use a bike. There is no combustion engine, no spark. It's just an electric assist to your pedaling. I used one for a few days in Europe when I damaged my knee on a regular bike. They are great! Pedalling uphill in a headwind and it can feel like you are pedaling downhill in calm weather. Definitely one in my future. I had a street one. A mountain e-bike would be amazing. And they are only going to get lighter and have even better range, but I could do 60 km in a day and have tons of battery left over.

If it has an electric motor to provide propulsion , then it is likely going to be considered to be a motor vehicle.

[Okotokian]

I don't think an e-bike qualifies as an OHV. They don't require registration, insurance ,lights, etc. Also, OHV's are not allowed on roadways. e-bikes obviously are. They also aren't "specifically designed" for "cross-county travel". Still, a bit unclear.

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType45/Production/MopedPowerBikes.pdf

[timsesink]

I think this pretty clearly defines E-Bikes as OHV's in law.


For what its worth I asked the same question of an AEP Public Lands Officer and was told it fit the definition of an OHV and was told that it would fall under the same restriction for use etc.


“off-highway vehicle” means any motorized mode of
transportation built for cross-country travel on land, water,
snow, ice or marsh or swamp land or on other natural
terrain and, without limiting the generality of the
foregoing, includes, when specifically designed for such
travel,
(i) 4-wheel drive vehicles,
(ii) low pressure tire vehicles,
(iii) motorcycles and related 2-wheel vehicles,
(iv) amphibious machines,
(v) all terrain vehicles,
(vi) miniature motor vehicles,
(vii) snow vehicles,
(viii) minibikes, and
(ix) any other means of transportation that is propelled by
any power other than muscular power or wind,
but does not include
(x) motor boats, or
(xi) any other vehicle exempted from being an offhighway
vehicle by regulation;

[Stinky Buffalo]

The key words being "muscular power" - Some e-bikes still require muscular power to operate; the motor is there only to "assist" the operator's pedaling motion.

It will be interesting to see if they eventually add some clarification to the law to cover these kinds of bikes.

[Okotokian]

I think this pretty clearly defines E-Bikes as OHV's in law.
Think I have to disagree with you there.

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType41/Production/small_vehicle_booklet_final.pdf

e-bike is not an OHV. They are two different categories. Plus you are highlighting the wrong parts. An OHV is specifically designed for cross country use. Says so right in your quote. An e-bike is not. Authorities may ban an e-bike, but they can't say it's banned because it's an OHV. It specifically is not.

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

While at the last Calgary sportsman show I decided to ask the c.o's. Neither of them knew, so one took my phone number.
A week later I got a call from him. He said he asked his supervisor who said they arent considered motor vehicles.

He ended the call by saying if he saw someone in sheep country on any bike, he would likley give them a high 5 and not a fine.

One thing to keep in mind about these bikes is that they are pedal assist. You have to pedal the whole time, otherwise the motor wont engage. Also, the most common motor size for crank drive is 350W. In the US I believe anything less than 500W gets treated as a bicycle.

Another point is that they can't go anywhere like a dirt bike.
We did some Summer scouting and I was on my mtn bike and my hunting partner was on a e bike. We took a long horse trail up above the tree line and was a suffer fest for both of us. More so for me, but he had no free ride.
They also weigh in at over 50 lbs, not including any extra batteries.

[doughgoat]

The key words being "muscular power" - Some e-bikes still require muscular power to operate; the motor is there only to "assist" the operator's pedaling motion.

It will be interesting to see if they eventually add some clarification to the law to cover these kinds of bikes.

So my dirt bike that requires me to push it down a hill before jumping on and starting the ignition is allowed on these trails..? Your logic makes zero sense, it has a motor therefore it is a motorized vehicle and should not be allowed.

[Stinky Buffalo]

So my dirt bike that requires me to push it down a hill before jumping on and starting the ignition is allowed on these trails..? Your logic makes zero sense, it has a motor therefore it is a motorized vehicle and should not be allowed.

"No pedaling" = "E-bike no move".

Simple.

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

"No pedaling" = "E-bike no move".

Simple.

Yup. And that seems to be the position the Ab gov't has taken so far.

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

I'd even be interested in getting a fat tire conventional bike. On that sheep trip I had the fat tire e bike going 40 km/h down hill on 3" plus of crusted snow. No motor being used at all.
Whenever i looked down and saw speeds over around 30 km/h i"d slow down just for safety's sake, but they sure handle the snow great.

There's still some good parts in the podcast, so give a listen. Lol.

Cheers.
John
highlanderhunting.podbean.com
search Highlander Hunting on Itunes and Google Play

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

So my dirt bike that requires me to push it down a hill before jumping on and starting the ignition is allowed on these trails..? Your logic makes zero sense, it has a motor therefore it is a motorized vehicle and should not be allowed.

Try one and then tell me it's a motor vehicle.

[Headdamage]

To be clear I have an e bike that I used to use to commute to work in downtown Calgary. It is no longer allowed on the bike paths because it can be used with or without peddling and it does clip along at 30 kph without peddling on the flat quite nicely. Really it should be considered a moped and is under some parts of the law.

I had a good talk with a government rep earlier this year about what is and is not a OHV and an ebike is an OHV when used as such. Peddle assist ebikes (as in no motor assist unless you are peddling) are allowed on Calgary bike paths but is also still considered motorized under the definition of an OHV.

If an area is posted on OHV that technically covers ebikes as well. The question is if someone will object or not. I was asking because I wanted to use it in WMU 406 which is mostly no OHV.

[Big Sky]

I made several calls this spring regarding 'pedal assist' bikes.

Several of the people I spoke with had to check with someone else because the info was not on their website and not readily available to them. A pretty common comment was that the technology was new and that websites are going to need updating.

Short summary of responses.

City of Calgary - 'pedal assist' bikes are allowed on the pathways. E-bikes that do not need to be pedaled have to be on the road.

Fish Creek PP - No e-bikes of any type are allowed even though Fish Creek PP is within the City of Calgary. The person said that this was the rule for all Provincial Parks.

Peter Lougheed PP - no e-bikes of any type allowed. They also said that this was the rule for all PP.

K-Country - no e-bikes of any type allowed except within areas that allow OHV such as McLean Creek.

Canmore Nordic Centre - no e-bikes of any type

Bow-Crow Forest - same rules as OHV

Several of the people I spoke with commented that they wouldn't be surprised to see some changes as e-bikes become more common.

[tswg]

Not all e-bikes require you to pedal for the motor to engage. There are many different versions of e-motors, and because of that, I think there needs to be clearer regulations on the subject.

As a 'regular' fatbiker, I'm somewhat torn on the subject. I'm not a big fan of motorized vehicles (which is what they are) on non-utv trails, but at the moment they aren't really a problem so I'm not too worried about them. Also,
I know I'll probably be needing a motor assist within a few years!

Once these things get popular though, and ATV bans become more province-wide (which you know is coming too), you can bet you'll see more of them out there and pretty soon there will need to be more clarity on the issue.

Also, I wouldn't recommend buying/riding one out into the backcountry if you aren't capable of riding it out without the battery power. 4" tires and a 50 lb bike (plus all your gear!) and it's a heart attack waiting to happen.

[Okotokian]

It is no longer allowed on the bike paths because it can be used with or without peddling and it does clip along at 30 kph without peddling on the flat quite nicely. .

I think we are talking about different bikes. Not sure what yours is, but the ones we are talking about MUST be pedaled. Stop pedaling and you will glide to a stop, just like any normal bicycle.

[.257Weatherby]

I think this pretty clearly defines E-Bikes as OHV's in law.

Yup, section iii for sure and is as well.
Bases covered, but this of course is taking away from the original intent of the thread.
Now, to go look at some interesting pictures.
Rob

[Okotokian]

Not all e-bikes require you to pedal for the motor to engage. There are many different versions of e-motors, and because of that, I think there needs to be clearer regulations on the subject.

As a 'regular' fatbiker, I'm somewhat torn on the subject. I'm not a big fan of motorized vehicles (which is what they are) on non-utv trails, but at the moment they aren't really a problem so I'm not too worried about them. Also,
I know I'll probably be needing a motor assist within a few years!

Once these things get popular though, and ATV bans become more province-wide (which you know is coming too), you can bet you'll see more of them out there and pretty soon there will need to be more clarity on the issue.

Also, I wouldn't recommend buying/riding one out into the backcountry if you aren't capable of riding it out without the battery power. 4" tires and a 50 lb bike (plus all your gear!) and it's a heart attack waiting to happen.

Agree with this. However, one really has to think about WHY certain vehicles are banned or not banned. An e-bike creates no more trail or other environmental damage than any mountain bike. It creates no noise or fumes to disturb wildlife. And it allows for those who are physically impaired or less fit to experience cycling in the outdoors. And that might be the key to objections.... A mountain biker's or hiker's reasoning for wanting e-bikes banned might boil down to not much more than "More space for me, keep it to myself", which isn't a sound reason to have anything banned.

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

Very interesting to hear people being given info that's opposite to what I was told by a srd officer.

I think people's idea of these bikes goes well beyond their capabilites, especially in hilly country. I really don't understand why they would get a ban in provincial parks as a whole. I can only imagine policy makers picturing people whizzing around on trails and causing safety issues for other riders.

But to treat them the same as an OHV is ridiculous.

Cheers.
John
highlanderhunting.podbean.com

[doughgoat]

Very interesting to hear people being given info that's opposite to what I was told by a srd officer.

I think people's idea of these bikes goes well beyond their capabilites, especially in hilly country. I really don't understand why they would get a ban in provincial parks as a whole. I can only imagine policy makers picturing people whizzing around on trails and causing safety issues for other riders.

But to treat them the same as an OHV is ridiculous.

Cheers.
John
highlanderhunting.podbean.com

How is that ridiculous? They have to draw the line somewhere.. At what speed does it become an OHV, at what level of "assist" does it become fully motorized? Well that would depend on your leg strength.. to much wiggle room. Those fat tire bikes have just as big of tire as some ATVs and will cause just as much destruction.

[tswg]

No fatbike, even with an e-motor, will cause the same damage as an ATV. A 40-50lb bike on 4 to 5" tires at less then 10 psi (I run at 6psi) has a similar footprint impact as someone walking the trail, and there's no spinning out.

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

How is that ridiculous? They have to draw the line somewhere.. At what speed does it become an OHV, at what level of "assist" does it become fully motorized? Well that would depend on your leg strength.. to much wiggle room. Those fat tire bikes have just as big of tire as some ATVs and will cause just as much destruction.

You've never rode a pedal assist bike or a fat tire bike have you?

[Deer Hunter]

What's wrong with a plain old mountain bike? Too steep? Push it up...
Of course it's a motorized vehicle. There is a motor in it.

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

[QUOTE=Deer Hunter;3648259]What's wrong with a plain old mountain bike? Too steep? Push it up...
Of course it's a motorized vehicle. There is a motor in it.[/QUOT

I like plain old mtn bikes, just thought I'd try something new for a change. Worked great too.

[walking buffalo]

Very interesting to hear people being given info that's opposite to what I was told by a srd officer.

I think people's idea of these bikes goes well beyond their capabilites, especially in hilly country. I really don't understand why they would get a ban in provincial parks as a whole. I can only imagine policy makers picturing people whizzing around on trails and causing safety issues for other riders.

But to treat them the same as an OHV is ridiculous.

Cheers.
John
highlanderhunting.podbean.com


You guys seem to attract these discussions.

Must be the marketing plan.... :)

Verbal opinions from Conservation Officers varies within many factors.

Sometimes a person just hears what they want to.

To get a definitive answer it is best to write Enforcement requesting a Written response including a reference to the applicable legislation.

[Deer Hunter]

The only reason to use an e bike is because it's easier.
Safeway. That's easy.

If you're riding these motorized bikes behind gates that don't allow motorized vehicles. You run the risk of getting caught and ticketed.

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

The only reason to use an e bike is because it's easier.
Safeway. That's easy.

If you're riding these motorized bikes behind gates that don't allow motorized vehicles. You run the risk of getting caught and ticketed.

Yup you nailed it. We go for the easy hunts ;)
Maybe next year we'll rent magic carpets.

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

You guys seem to attract these discussions.

Must be the marketing plan.... :)

Verbal opinions from Conservation Officers varies within many factors.

Sometimes a person just hears what they want to.

To get a definitive answer it is best to write Enforcement requesting a Written response including a reference to the applicable legislation.

Haha, shhh 😇.
I also made another post with sheep pictures and a nice little write up, but nobody cares about that post. The hunt was great but didn't see any legal rams.

[7MM Mike]

this is a great thread to reflect on why you hunt sheep.
my reasons are as follows:
the incredible beauty of your surroundings
disconnecting from the modern world
the awe I have for wild sheep
the personal mental and physical challenge

i think the more technology becomes a part of any hunt to make it "easier", the more the experience becomes diminished.
motorized transport of any kind would erode the experience for me.

Sheep hunting is not meant to be easy, and there will come a day when I'm no longer able to do it. I sure as he'll won't be out there on my motorized scooter pretending....

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

this is a great thread to reflect on why you hunt sheep.
my reasons are as follows:
the incredible beauty of your surroundings
disconnecting from the modern world
the awe I have for wild sheep
the personal mental and physical challenge

i think the more technology becomes a part of any hunt to make it "easier", the more the experience becomes diminished.
motorized transport of any kind would erode the experience for me.

Sheep hunting is not meant to be easy, and there will come a day when I'm no longer able to do it. I sure as he'll won't be out there on my motorized scooter pretending....

I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on using horses to hunt sheep? A quick google search told me a horse can produce 10,900 Watts of power. The bike I rented produced 350 Watts max and that's only engaged when I pedalled.
I'd say a horse is way more of an easy way to hunt than on a pedal assist bike.

Probably used a modern rifle with a scope to shoot that dandy ram did you? After glassing it up with a precision piece of optics? How about your boots? Or were you hopping around on scree using moccasins you made your self?

Technology is used in virtually every aspect of hunting.

I also used battery powered headlamps for light.

[3blade]

Just like the drone scouting thing...it's not legal. Aircraft = thing that flies, manned or unmanned isn't relevant. motor = OHV. A leg activated motor is no different than a thumb/hand/gas pedal activated one. MathewsArcher and timsesink got it right.

You guys are trying to invent loopholes that aren't there. Maybe you get away with it for a season or two, but that will be corrected.

unfortunately it seems like you did attempt clarification, and got lead down the wrong path by trusting a verbal opinion. I can tell you that will mean absolutely squat if you ever had to go to court. As WB suggested, get things in writing.

[mgvande]

I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on using horses to hunt sheep? A quick google search told me a horse can produce 10,900 Watts of power. The bike I rented produced 350 Watts max and that's only engaged when I pedalled.
I'd say a horse is way more of an easy way to hunt than on a pedal assist bike.

Probably used a modern rifle with a scope to shoot that dandy ram did you? After glassing it up with a precision piece of optics? How about your boots? Or were you hopping around on scree using moccasins you made your self?

Technology is used in virtually every aspect of hunting.

I also used battery powered headlamps for light.

A horse doesn't have a motor. The regulations don't limit how many 'watts' your horse provides. If you want to ride a bike that's fine. Just don't be surprised when some of these are banned due to wattage rating in the future. I personally don't care if they are or not on the current capabilities. I'm not sure where you are going with the rifle stuff. If you're implying that we shouldnt use a nice rifle or new rifle than why would you think it's ok to use a shiney bike?

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

A horse doesn't have a motor. The regulations don't limit how many 'watts' your horse provides. If you want to ride a bike that's fine. Just don't be surprised when some of these are banned due to wattage rating in the future. I personally don't care if they are or not on the current capabilities. I'm not sure where you are going with the rifle stuff. If you're implying that we shouldnt use a nice rifle or new rifle than why would you think it's ok to use a shiney bike?

I was replying to the other post where the guy said that the more technology gets introduced into hunting, the more it diminishes the experience. Seems a little ironic considering all the technology we all use while mountain hunting. Like modern firearms, Optics, sleep systems, even modern hunting clothes.

[elkhunter11]

I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on using horses to hunt sheep? A quick google search told me a horse can produce 10,900 Watts of power. The bike I rented produced 350 Watts max and that's only engaged when I pedalled.
I'd say a horse is way more of an easy way to hunt than on a pedal assist bike.

Probably used a modern rifle with a scope to shoot that dandy ram did you? After glassing it up with a precision piece of optics? How about your boots? Or were you hopping around on scree using moccasins you made your self?

Technology is used in virtually every aspect of hunting.

I also used battery powered headlamps for light.

Have you ever used horses on a mountain hunt? Did you look after them on the hunt or did someone else do all of the work? Hauling horses around and tending them during a hunt is a lot more work than some people realize. And when the hunt is over, you can't just park them and forget them until the next hunt. If it was so easy to hunt with horses, many more people would be doing it.

[catnthehat]

I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on using horses to hunt sheep? A quick google search told me a horse can produce 10,900 Watts of power. The bike I rented produced 350 Watts max and that's only engaged when I pedalled.
I'd say a horse is way more of an easy way to hunt than on a pedal assist bike.

Probably used a modern rifle with a scope to shoot that dandy ram did you? After glassing it up with a precision piece of optics? How about your boots? Or were you hopping around on scree using moccasins you made your self?

Technology is used in virtually every aspect of hunting.

I also used battery powered headlamps for light.

The points made here have to be the most rediculous replies for trying to win an argument I have ever seen on this forum .
Have you ever even used horses??you probably have, and They are not nearly as easy as you are trying to make it out to be to be and anyone who has used them knows knows just how lame an argument it is.
This motorized vehicle thing is going to go sideways as soon as someone starts bragging about how fast their E- bike is .

Electric lights and fancy rifles and scopes for a counter point in a vehicle debate ?? Really, get a life.
i think this is the first time I have responded to any of your threads but I do know that it will be the last .
Cat

[mgvande]

Have you ever used horses on a mountain hunt? Did you look after them on the hunt or did someone else do all of the work? Hauling horses around and tending them during a hunt is a lot more work than some people realize. And when the hunt is over, you can't just park them and forget them until the next hunt. If it was so easy to hunt with horses, many more people would be doing it.

Exactly. It's a year round thing. Im about 50/50 for mileage a year. I'm using my horses 1/2 time. Just due to the spots I want to linger in that have no feed and I'm in out walking 25 yrs olds still. Those 2 foot hunts sure are relaxing when I want to put my feet up and go to sleep. People that look at horses and call foul really haven't thought about the work involved. Not to mention the time input everyday.

[mgvande]

I was replying to the other post where the guy said that the more technology gets introduced into hunting, the more it diminishes the experience. Seems a little ironic considering all the technology we all use while mountain hunting. Like modern firearms, Optics, sleep systems, even modern hunting clothes.

No matter what gear or ginch we use out there it's not directly related to access. The e bikes will be regulated because that's what governments like to do. I'm assuming it will be a wattage rating but don't really care actually.

[walking buffalo]

Just like the drone scouting thing...it's not legal. Aircraft = thing that flies, manned or unmanned isn't relevant. motor = OHV. A leg activated motor is no different than a thumb/hand/gas pedal activated one. MathewsArcher and timsesink got it right.

You guys are trying to invent loopholes that aren't there. Maybe you get away with it for a season or two, but that will be corrected.

unfortunately it seems like you did attempt clarification, and got lead down the wrong path by trusting a verbal opinion. I can tell you that will mean absolutely squat if you ever had to go to court. As WB suggested, get things in writing.


I don't feel this is a case of finding a "loophole"....
Either it is legal or it is not, or has yet to be determined to be legal or illegal.

And I'm not sure why you would qualify his efforts to determine legality as "unfortunate"....

Nor your assertion that he was led down the "wrong path"....

E-bikes are new technology, newer than the legislation that encompass their use.

I suspect that the courts have not had to deal with them yet, there is likely no precedent to determine how the current laws are to be interpreted.

In these matters, even a written response by Enforcement might be nothing more than an opinion without any substance to confirm that their position is that of the courts.

This is how the law works. Like I asked years ago, what is a Shotgun?.....

[3blade]

I don't feel this is a case of finding a "loophole"....
Either it is legal or it is not, or has yet to be determined to be legal or illegal.

And I'm not sure why you would qualify his efforts to determine legality as "unfortunate"....

Nor your assertion that he was led down the "wrong path"....

E-bikes are new technology, newer than the legislation that encompass their use.

I suspect that the courts have not had to deal with them yet, there is likely no precedent to determine how the current laws are to be interpreted.

In these matters, even a written response by Enforcement might be nothing more than an opinion without any substance to confirm that their position is that of the courts.

This is how the law works. Like I asked years ago, what is a Shotgun?.....

Sure let's do this again :) I called the drone issue correctly, and this is the same. It is covered by existing legislation, just not specifically mentioned. It doesn't need to be, the wording has 'motor' in it for this reason. There does not need to be precedent for every particular technology, if it has a motor in it, its illegal in those areas. Trying to fancy talk around that would get you nowhere.

A written response by enforcement would likely (but not be guaranteed to) spare someone a significant portion of the penalty if presented to a judge. Ex guilty but suspended sentence or minimal fine. I highly doubt they would ever provide said written response, as they rightly do not like to take on the responsibility of interpretation. That is the function of the court.

It appeared highland has made an attempt to clarify a question that didn't need to be asked, just required some reading comprehension, and was given a highly suspect non-legally binding answer. The whole thing is unfortunate

[walking buffalo]

Sure let's do this again :) I called the drone issue correctly, and this is the same. It is covered by existing legislation, just not specifically mentioned. It doesn't need to be, the wording has 'motor' in it for this reason. There does not need to be precedent for every particular technology, if it has a motor in it, its illegal in those areas. Trying to fancy talk around that would get you nowhere.

A written response by enforcement would likely (but not be guaranteed to) spare someone a significant portion of the penalty if presented to a judge. Ex guilty but suspended sentence or minimal fine. I highly doubt they would ever provide said written response, as they rightly do not like to take on the responsibility of interpretation. That is the function of the court.

It appeared highland has made an attempt to clarify a question that didn't need to be asked, just required some reading comprehension, and was given a highly suspect non-legally binding answer. The whole thing is unfortunate



You are coming from the perspective of having judged what the courts have yet to.

F&W enforcement does give opinions on matters without precedent, and are correctly careful in stating that the interpretation is an Opinion.
They recently did this for CLAS regarding paying for access to hunt. Enforcement did Not say the business model is legal, they gave an "opinion" that the they do not believe that any laws are being broken with a caution that a judge may interpret the laws differently.

B.C. is in a similar position regarding E-bikes. Here is a response from BC F&W, giving an Opinion an recommendation on the matter. I suspect we are in the same boat here in Alberta.


-------

"Thank you for your email dated August 4, 2017, regarding the use of E-bikes within areas where the operation of motor vehicles are restricted. Your enquiry has been forwarded to me for response.

In the provincial Wildlife Act a Motor Vehicle is defined as:

"motor vehicle" means a device in, on or by which a person or thing is being or may be transported or drawn, and which is designed to be self propelled, and includes an atv or snowmobile, but does not include
(a) a device designed to be moved by human, animal or wind power,
(b) a device designed to be used exclusively on stationary rails or stationary tracks, or
(c) a boat propelled by motorized power;

E-bikes are not specifically referenced in this definition, and to my knowledge there has been no precedence set through the courts on the subject, as such it is difficult to provide a clear answer to your question. This response is solely based on my interpretation of the regulation as it is currently written.

E-bikes are designed to be both self propelled and moved by human power; they meet the definition of a motor vehicle (designed to be self propelled), and are not included in the definition of motor vehicle (a device designed to be moved by human power). I don’t think the law makers of the day considered that devices would be designed in the future that both meet and are excluded from the definition. Further complicating the matter are the various designs of E-bikes/scooters and their relative reliance on either battery or human power.

There are variables that could be factors in determining whether these types of vehicles could be used within an area subject to motor vehicle restrictions/prohibitions. For example, if a bike is not capable of propelling itself without the use of human power (i.e. the battery is charged by the rotation of the pedals) it may not be considered “self propelled” and may not meet the definition of a motor vehicle. However, if a bike does not require human assistance to move it (i.e. the battery is charged at home and the pedals simply augment the movement of the bike) it could be considered “self propelled” and meet the definition of a motor vehicle.

I’ve used terms like “may” and “could” liberally, as described above there is no clear reference to these types of devices in the Wildlife Act. However, I’ll take the liberty of more certainty when speaking to the objectives of these motor vehicle regulations. There are numerous types of motor vehicle restrictions/prohibitions in the province, but they can be put into two categories: year round/seasonal motor vehicle prohibitions and motor vehicle prohibitions for the purpose of hunting.

Generally (if not always) a full prohibition on the use of motor vehicles, either seasonally or year round, is in place to protect habitat. These can apply to specific lines (i.e. roads, trails) or polygons (i.e. watersheds, alpine areas). Whenever operating a vehicle/device in the province the operator should be These hybrid vehicles probably don’t compromise the objective of these regulations to any great extent, provided the device is operated in a manner that takes habitat values (soils, vegetation, etc.) into consideration.

The rational for Motor Vehicle for Hunting Closed Areas is generally social or to reduce harvest pressure in a specific area. In some areas access has increased in recent years which makes wildlife more vulnerable, motor vehicle for hunting closures are a tool in these situations to reduce hunter access into these areas that were previously inaccessible by a motor vehicle. They are also in place to provide a diversity of hunting experiences (i.e. a road where they can walk, bike, or horseback into without seeing a quad every couple of kms). These E-bikes may compromise the objective of these regulations.

It is my recommendation that an E-bike not be used in areas where motor vehicles are prohibited or restricted, however I am unable to state whether they are prohibited by law.

Regards,

Regulations and Policy Analyst|Fish & Wildlife Branch|Ministry of Forests, Lands, and Natural Resource Operations|"

[ehrgeiz]

I see no solid argument for why an E-bike would have a greater impact than a pedal powered fat bike. I think it's use is consistent with spirit of the regulations preventing the undesirable aspects of traditional OHV use in some areas. As I regularly have to interpret grey legislation and regulation for a living; I find that after an incident "authorities" will wield a flaming sword of discretion ignoring any of the uncertainty, but are sheepish as **** about applying that same discretion in a formal context when someone inquires pre-incident. There probably is some regulatory risk in riding these e-bikes, but until some unfortunate guy incurs the said incident we wont know for sure.

BTW, I think horses do too much damage to trails, especially with their regular defecation right in the middle of said trail! I say ban them, ban ban ban!! :fighting0030::fighting0074:

[openroad]

Hello
Thanks for Highlander Hunting Podcast.
You guys do a great job and I’m a fan.
I don’t see a place for e-bikes on the trails.
Current non motorized fat bikes with a big cog set
will allow you to spin up most places you would want
to take a e-bike. The bonus is you are getting fit for
more hunting down the road. We are not running out of places
for motorized vehicles. The day I can’t get myself back into sheep
country is the day I hunt the front ranges.
Thanks again. Looking forward to more podcasts.

[LJalberta]

I've listened to a number of your guys podcasts. I appreciate you taking the time and effort to put them out there! Keep it up. As to the E-bikes, thanks walking buffalo for bringing some sense into the argument. I have no opinion either way on them at the moment, but the fact is e-bikes weren't considered in the making of the regulations, and until the courts, or further regulations clarify, they will continue to exist in a grey zone. You can claim that they're either legal or illegal and you may be right once it's decided by court/regulation, but until then it's simply speculation.

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

I'm always surprised what gets people upset on this forum. (Cat in the hat)

Anyway, looks like the government has taken the choice of using them away from us. So no reason to debate.

If you listen to our podcast you'll see that the bikes really weren't central to the hunt. I only posted it on here because I thought people might find it interesting as a tool, like a Atv but with basically no environmental impact. They aren't fast, they have a limited range, you can't even use them on horse trails. So as someone who used one, I'd say they're definitely useful to access backcountry, but it doesn't give a person a crazy huge advantage.
While scouting I biked the exact same route with my mtn bike, in the same time, 3 hours. The difference being I had a 30lbs day pack compared to 65lbs hunting pack.
Anyhow, this thread really went pear shaped, but thanks to everyone who bothered to look up info to post in this thread.

Cheers guys.
John
Highlanderhunting.podbean.com

[wbshunt]

I would say sounds like you did your research and due diligence before your hunt. Don't let some people here who are probably just upset they didn't think about it first. Good for you.

[bsmitty27]

I think in most places in Canada the legislation hasn't kept up with the technology, I dont think you would be able to be charged with anything as of now. I have a brother in-law in Colorado, just north of Denver, The use of Pedal assist bikes is there is treated like a motorized bike and restricted the same. Im sure eventially it will be the same here. but if you have the cash to drop 7+grand it could get you deep in to some great areas. I would pedal in and use electric to haul meat.
Brad

[DuckDuckElk!]

Here is the response I received directly from Alberta Environment and Parks management:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding electric bikes.

Specific to your inquiry, the Provincial Parks General Regulation takes precedence over the Alberta Traffic Safety Act within Alberta Parks and Protected Areas. Currently, under the existing Provincial Parks General Regulation e-bikes are not permitted for use by members of the public on Alberta Parks trails designated for non-motorized use. E-Bikes are only permitted on designated roadways and areas where off-highway vehicles are allowed within Alberta Parks. The Provincial Parks General Regulation clearly refers to "cycles" as "human powered" only.

I hope this helps and thank you for your email inquiry.

So that covers off any wildland or other parks. Speaking with CO's in the K Country area, they were aware of this as the position and willing to ticket accordingly. Would be the same ticket as if you drove your truck in.

As others have discussed here, the main benefit that we as hunters have with this ruling is that it keeps access to areas at a consistent, fair and challenging level. For people willing to do the work (be it on horseback or foot), the opportunity is there.

There is no doubt that e-bikes, whether fully automated or pedal-assist, provide a mechanical advantage. Would it be awesome to zip around silently on a fat tire bike using a motor - well yeah, I fantasize about it :). But I would rather they stay restricted than lower the bar to entry in non-ohv areas. We don't need another short-cut...

[ehrgeiz]

Bah, some of the new bikes have hidden motors in the down-tube. Pro cyclists have been caught with it, it's called mechanical doping haha. You won't get the same 1000+watt punch, but maybe 250-400. Somehow I doubt a CO is going to deconstruct your bike to verify. It's in the spirit of cycling to red line the regulations and rule book so why not hunting as well?

Kidding aside, I don't think the use of a pedal assist should be a significant concern to AEP, but as mentioned earlier we won't know for sure until some unfortunate guy gets caught and wrings out the process at his mandatory court date.

[oiler_nation]

Love the podcast guys. Nice to have some local content to play in between all the meateaters, randy newbergs etc. so keep it up.

I do not think the current generation of e-bikes are a huge cause for concern, but even while I listened to the pod, I was looking ahead to the day when the bikes lean more towards dirt bike than mtn. bike. At some point the assist becomes too great. The government has to be forward thinking in its regulations, and I think e-bikes are something to get out in front of (much like they did with drones). Frankly, I wish they would have been as forward thinking on trail cams.

As for the horse discussion, for what it is worth I think the point is totally valid. You can't say on the one hand "I love the challenge" meanwhile you saddle up and ride 30 kms back into an area that your fitness level may not accommodate. Sure you're bit sore after a 6 hour ride, sure a pack trip is as much a horse trip as a hunting trip due to the maintenance associated with livestock, but to act like the struggle is the same as a backpack hunt of the same distance is disingenuous. Given the choice between taking this iteration of an e-bike, or my horse, I am taking the e-bike every time if the decision is purely based on preserving the challenge. I would also probably pack my self bow too.

I apologies in advance to Dr. Seuss for using a "rediculous" analogy involving self bows in a discussion about technological advancements in hunting, but you know....logic.

[Okotokian]

Have you ever used horses on a mountain hunt? Did you look after them on the hunt or did someone else do all of the work? Hauling horses around and tending them during a hunt is a lot more work than some people realize. And when the hunt is over, you can't just park them and forget them until the next hunt. If it was so easy to hunt with horses, many more people would be doing it.

C'mon Elk. Many people (including me) don't avoid using horses on hunts because it's HARD. We don't use them (and the guides and outfitters that come with them) because it's EXPENSIVE. I'd love to go on an outfitted hunt, I just can't justify X thousands of dollars to do it for a couple days.

And a big outfitted hunt with horses causes a lot more trail damage than any bicycle, e-bike or not. Try hiking any trail that horses regularly use.

I get there are laws and rules but some people here seem more concerned with banning something new than evaluating whether it really does any damage. haven't heard anyone put forward any evidence that an e-bike has any more environmental or wildlife impact than a regular bike.

[crazy_davey]

Is this an ebike?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T-AzDZt1IcM

Where do we draw the line?

[DiabeticKripple]

my opinion on it...

if its the model where you have to pedal the whole time, and is electronically assisted, then it is not an OHV.

if its the model where the motor self propels you, then its an OHV.

really the first one is no different than a mountain bike.

[DiabeticKripple]

Is this an ebike?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T-AzDZt1IcM

Where do we draw the line?

this is an OHV imo. self propelled, no different than a gas job.

[walking buffalo]

Here is the response I received directly from Alberta Environment and Parks management:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding electric bikes.

Specific to your inquiry, the Provincial Parks General Regulation takes precedence over the Alberta Traffic Safety Act within Alberta Parks and Protected Areas. Currently, under the existing Provincial Parks General Regulation e-bikes are not permitted for use by members of the public on Alberta Parks trails designated for non-motorized use. E-Bikes are only permitted on designated roadways and areas where off-highway vehicles are allowed within Alberta Parks. The Provincial Parks General Regulation clearly refers to "cycles" as "human powered" only.

I hope this helps and thank you for your email inquiry.

So that covers off any wildland or other parks. Speaking with CO's in the K Country area, they were aware of this as the position and willing to ticket accordingly. Would be the same ticket as if you drove your truck in.

As others have discussed here, the main benefit that we as hunters have with this ruling is that it keeps access to areas at a consistent, fair and challenging level. For people willing to do the work (be it on horseback or foot), the opportunity is there.

There is no doubt that e-bikes, whether fully automated or pedal-assist, provide a mechanical advantage. Would it be awesome to zip around silently on a fat tire bike using a motor - well yeah, I fantasize about it :). But I would rather they stay restricted than lower the bar to entry in non-ohv areas. We don't need another short-cut...


Thanks for doing some digging.

Regarding the bolded, Huh?

I would ask Parks to provide the legislation that states the Parks Act Trumps Transportation's. I think there is some bluffing and even ego in this reply.

Not saying I'm right, but this is directly from the Parks Act.

(h) “motor vehicle” means a motor vehicle within the meaning of section 1(1) of the Traffic Safety Act;

[Okotokian]

Think I have to disagree with you there.

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType41/Production/small_vehicle_booklet_final.pdf

e-bike is not an OHV. They are two different categories. Plus you are highlighting the wrong parts. An OHV is specifically designed for cross country use. Says so right in your quote. An e-bike is not. Authorities may ban an e-bike, but they can't say it's banned because it's an OHV. It specifically is not.

All those claiming that a powered bicycle is an OHV, how do you square that view with the Alberta Transportation document I provided the link to, that has them classified separately, with different regulations, and licensing and insurance requirements? Not saying I know how F&W would treat them, but this is the only document I've seen where they are specifically addressed by name.

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

Is this an ebike?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T-AzDZt1IcM

Where do we draw the line?

I get your point. For the record, here's a picture of the ones we rented. Way more bicycle than dirt bike.

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

C'mon Elk. Many people (including me) don't avoid using horses on hunts because it's HARD. We don't use them (and the guides and outfitters that come with them) because it's EXPENSIVE. I'd love to go on an outfitted hunt, I just can't justify X thousands of dollars to do it for a couple days.

And a big outfitted hunt with horses causes a lot more trail damage than any bicycle, e-bike or not. Try hiking any trail that horses regularly use.

I get there are laws and rules but some people here seem more concerned with banning something new than evaluating whether it really does any damage. haven't heard anyone put forward any evidence that an e-bike has any more environmental or wildlife impact than a regular bike.

Horses are a lifestyle, not just a transportation means. It looks like a cool way to get around in the backcountry, but as a city dweller, it doesn't make much sense to own them just to hunt a few times per year.

Since it looks like the pedal assist bikes are out, I'll go back to my usual method of accessing the backcountry, hiking. Or may pick up a fat tire bike. I was seriously impressed with the way they handle snow.

[Stinky Buffalo]

All being said, I definitely enjoyed the podcast. [emoji846]