Perch Theory

[Sartorius]

I have a theory about the illegal perch in some of our stocked trout lakes. I remember reading in a book once when I was younger about fish eggs getting stuck to birds, and then being transported to other water bodies.

A few days ago I was float tubing on Hubbles Lake and I saw what looked like strings of perch eggs stuck to the weeds in the shallows.

This may seem like a crazy idea, but is it possible that the eggs may have gotten stuck onto birds such as loons, grebes, and other diving birds, or even wading birds like herons, and then transported to other lakes?

Just throwing it out there...

[308 man]

More to the theory the sky has rained frogs fish and other small creatures,
maybe even small perch or there eggs.

[badger]

I have a theory about the illegal perch in some of our stocked trout lakes. I remember reading in a book once when I was younger about fish eggs getting stuck to birds, and then being transported to other water bodies.

A few days ago I was float tubing on Hubbles Lake and I saw what looked like strings of perch eggs stuck to the weeds in the shallows.

This may seem like a crazy idea, but is it possible that the eggs may have gotten stuck onto birds such as loons, grebes, and other diving birds, or even wading birds like herons, and then transported to other lakes?

Just throwing it out there...
Not a chance that this is the mechanism. Over millions of years, the perch would be in every single body of water if this was even remotely possible.

[Morph1]

We were actually told the same thing by a F&W officer himself, but who knows...,
another story I heard from a local Hasse Lake fisherman this year that he witnessed himself 5 years ago a stocking truck pulled up and dumped the load of perch in the lake by a mistake.... :confused:,
But again who says the guy was telling the truth .....,
I am passive on this topic as anyone can tell you anything, seems like everyone got their own theory,
the truth is nobody really knows for sure, but the migrating birs that's quite a possibility in my view especially having Mink Lake only 1500 meters away :tongue2:

Cheers - The war has started :lol::lol::lol:

[Sundancefisher]

Not a chance that this is the mechanism. Over millions of years, the perch would be in every single body of water if this was even remotely possible.

Even potential trolls needs a response from time to time as some people really believe what they read as truth.

Badger had exactly the easiest point to note. Old wives tales and urban legend do not help fisheries management. I have studied perch distribution in the Athabasca region and there were never perch in lakes without human introduction or tributary access to the Athabasca River.

Picture this.

A bird...dives down to 1-4 meters. Picks up somes eggs and tucks them under its wings cradling them ever so gently so as to not pop them. Swims back to the surface and then very carefully lifts off the water without dropping them or having them flushed from the feathers. Then the bird flies super fast before the eggs dry out and die... (30 seconds to 1 minutes)...then lands at another lake. Gently deposits the eggs. Then the bird quickly flies back to secure another load upon load. Eventually enough eggs are deposited such that enough live to start a successful population.

Nope...nada...never happens. Exactly as mentioned by badger.

People are the idiots doing the illegal stocking...not grebes, diving ducks, loons, merganzers, kingfishers, cormorants, pelicans, etc.

It is impossible. Firstly the eggs are sticky immediately as the are laid in the water. They then stick to the bottom. A bird has to unstick them. Perch eggs have also been shown to be shun by animals for eating. Therefore the birds are not even targeting them.

Morph1...the stocking story...bogus...stocking trucks don't drive perch around. Urban rumours are not worth talking about. F&W officers if he really was and really said that is not a biologist and may have fallen prey to the silly stories and urban legends.

Cheers

Sun

[ukrmaf]

I fish couldnt find a natural way of getting from lake to lake than they would only exist in the ocean, i'm sure birds nesting on one lake catch a fish from another lake and as they fly back to their nests sometimes the fish especially tough fish like perch fall out of their mouths, over time that could lead to a population of fish in the lake that wasnt there before, i've seen birds drop flopping fish well into flight............I know what everyone is gonna say, "why arent perch in every lake?", because it needs to ber an environmet condusive to their survival, and perch are quite tough, hence you can find them to some extent in most lakes.

thats my two cents:scared:

[Crusty]

UNBLOODY BELIEVEABLE !! The egg theory does not fly, no pun intended. The injured fish in mouth of bird and dropped into a different body of water theory is real good ! This injured fish would also need another injured fish to be dropped into the same body of water by low flying bird to reproduce and the chances are 50/50 that it would be of the opposite sex. Sounds good to me if the story was produced by Loonie Tunes and directed by Dafft Duck ! C'mon people !!

[Sundancefisher]

I fish couldnt find a natural way of getting from lake to lake than they would only exist in the ocean, i'm sure birds nesting on one lake catch a fish from another lake and as they fly back to their nests sometimes the fish especially tough fish like perch fall out of their mouths, over time that could lead to a population of fish in the lake that wasnt there before, i've seen birds drop flopping fish well into flight............I know what everyone is gonna say, "why arent perch in every lake?", because it needs to ber an environmet condusive to their survival, and perch are quite tough, hence you can find them to some extent in most lakes.

thats my two cents:scared:

It is hard to address this because you have not heard the science and facts obviously. :huh:

I STUDIES many many lakes in the Athabasca River drainage system. Many of those had very suitable habitat for perch. Only those lakes either stocked or with a tributary to the river had perch... NO LAKES HAD PERCH WITHOUT SUCH TRIBUTARY OR STOCKING.

Your whole argument makes absolutely no sense and only compounds the problem by coming up with crazy ideas.

If it was a joke...you made a good one that is for sure.:ashamed:

[duffy4]

Sundancefisher

I am surprised by your attitude.

If a theory has not been tested and found to be false it can still stand as a theory. Just because we don't believe it is a very logical theory does not give us licence to totally poop on it.

[Morph1]

Sundancefisher

I am surprised by your attitude.

If a theory has not been tested and found to be false it can still stand as a theory. Just because we don't believe it is a very logical theory does not give us licence to totally poop on it.

Agreed buds 100%,

I am surprised of a single picked theory as well, Sundance you have to be a bit more flexible with your thoughts and opinions,
after all if we all were so strongly convinced of only one way
and one only solution, you and your biology colleagues still would think that the earth is flat !!!,
and after all, have you seriously studied all the lakes, I mean all the lakes:lol: around athabasca river drainage or just a few ???,

I already asked you on the topic regarding Hasse lake once, you were to give your statements and theories but you haven't even been to those lakes personally :lol:, mink lake is only 1 km away from Hasse and Spring Lake is about 400 m distance and both those lakes hold perch.
It is very possible that the perch or perch eggs could've been introduced to the system by birds , especially loons as there is plenty of them at either lake. You said yourself that the eggs are very sticky right ?? and yet you
doubt the event of maybe some eggs got stuck to a bird and came off in the water of neighbouring lake ....

Cheers,
PS. I am still waiting for a book release on the subject by Sundance :lol::lol:

[Sundancefisher]

Agreed buds 100%,

I am surprised of a single picked theory as well, Sundance you have to be a bit more flexible with your thoughts and opinions,
after all if we all were so strongly convinced of only one way
and one only solution, you and your biology colleagues still would think that the earth is flat !!!,
and after all, have you seriously studied all the lakes, I mean all the lakes:lol: around athabasca river drainage or just a few ???,

I already asked you on the topic regarding Hasse lake once, you were to give your statements and theories but you haven't even been to those lakes personally :lol:, mink lake is only 1 km away from Hasse and Spring Lake is about 400 m distance and both those lakes hold perch.
It is very possible that the perch or perch eggs could've been introduced to the system by birds , especially loons as there is plenty of them at either lake. You said yourself that the eggs are very sticky right ?? and yet you
doubt the event of maybe some eggs got stuck to a bird and came off in the water of neighbouring lake ....

Cheers,
PS. I am still waiting for a book release on the subject by Sundance :lol::lol:

Morph1...who said I never been to Mink and Hasse and Spring etc. I grew up in Edmonton and fished tons on those lakes as well as Mornville Res, Cardiff, Hermitage, Lac La Nonne, Wabamun, Lac St Anne just to name the close by lake (and I probably forgot some).

This particular theory has been disproved by science. It is a urban myth and old wives tale that keep cropping up. If you want to believe these then the email myths that circulate every year with different names, date, locations etc. must amaze you.:lol:

The reason why those lakes have perch is simply because some idiot needed very little effort to transfer the bucket. Mink has had perch in it for years and years. I caught my first perch in Mink probably 1985ish. I caught my first local trout in Hasse fishing off the old rickety dock.:wave:

If you really want to know and are interested in the studies...look them up at the University of Alberta.;)

Spontaneous and mysterious perch migrations are a fallacy. Facts are...perch do not fly...with or without the help of a bird. They only move by bucket. :mad3:

Duffy4...some may believe more studies are needed just to prove the Earth is not flat...even today...fortunately for us the results are in and the perch move via two legs and/or a car/truck.

Anyways...to some the truth is always illusive... I just take exception to misinformation giving people the wrong idea that they don't have to watch out for people moving live fish and not birds.

Cheers

Sun

[dfrobert]

Just thought I would share this. My uncle Ray lives near Perth in Ontario. For more than 20 years he has had his own trout pond that he dug out with a dragline. The pond is strictly spring fed. There is no inlet or out or moving water source into his pond. Over the years he has had to kill off and restock his pond 3 times with rainbows. This has nothing to due with diminishing numbers of trout left in the pond from catching and keeping alot of the fish stocked.

The reason he has had to kill off the lake and restock it every 5/6 years is due to invasive species of fish getting into the lake. The culprits you ask? For the most part have been pumkinseed (sunfish) and shiners from nearby water bodies. The only possible way this could have happened is from birds getting fertilized eggs stuck to various parts of their bodies in nearby lakes and then going for a swim in the trout pond, which is a short flight away i might add.

For the most part he would let the pumkinseed and and shiners do their thing in his stocked pond for a few years and then start over, as it made the trout fishing poor for a number of reasons. Lack of a good diet for the trout was definitely one of the reasons.

I don't think its very hard to visualize a water bird to get some freshly fertilized eggs in their feet or feathers and then go for a splash in the nearby trout pond and deposit the eggs here. I am definitely a believer in this theory as I have seen the evidence more than once. HOWEVER, I also believe that most of the perch getting into the quality stocked lakes in Alberta that have recently be placed under the microscope are due to a whole different phenomenon.......The Bucket Brigade! :mad:

[dfrobert]

Sundancefisher. Have you yourself studied how long it takes a fish egg to dry out? Would you have to factor in the coefficient of air friction against the bird to test this? :lol: :lol: Could you please show me WHERE Science has disproved this theory because maybe you could do a study at a particular trout pond that has indeed had eggs moved into it through water bearing birds such as loons, cranes, ducks, geese, grieves, etc, etc.

[Unregistered user]

Good points all, how come no perch in lake Bonavista, (way older than Sundance) or mcKenzie or Auburn or coral springs, got 'em in Midnapore 20 years ago though.

[LongDraw]

I believe perch were stocked in the Glenmore Resevoir 25 years ago.

[EarthDaddy]

:confused:Do you all mean the world is not really flat??????

[Sundancefisher]

Just thought I would share this. My uncle Ray lives near Perth in Ontario. For more than 20 years he has had his own trout pond that he dug out with a dragline. The pond is strictly spring fed. There is no inlet or out or moving water source into his pond. Over the years he has had to kill off and restock his pond 3 times with rainbows. This has nothing to due with diminishing numbers of trout left in the pond from catching and keeping alot of the fish stocked.

The reason he has had to kill off the lake and restock it every 5/6 years is due to invasive species of fish getting into the lake. The culprits you ask? For the most part have been pumkinseed (sunfish) and shiners from nearby water bodies. The only possible way this could have happened is from birds getting fertilized eggs stuck to various parts of their bodies in nearby lakes and then going for a swim in the trout pond, which is a short flight away i might add.

For the most part he would let the pumkinseed and and shiners do their thing in his stocked pond for a few years and then start over, as it made the trout fishing poor for a number of reasons. Lack of a good diet for the trout was definitely one of the reasons.

I don't think its very hard to visualize a water bird to get some freshly fertilized eggs in their feet or feathers and then go for a splash in the nearby trout pond and deposit the eggs here. I am definitely a believer in this theory as I have seen the evidence more than once. HOWEVER, I also believe that most of the perch getting into the quality stocked lakes in Alberta that have recently be placed under the microscope are due to a whole different phenomenon.......The Bucket Brigade! :mad:

Sorry to hear about your pond...I am not sure about your situation or whether people used live minnows for bait there and just dumped a can or maybe local kids dumped them in for what ever reason.

You would have to look at the issue closer to see how they got there...If you have a Spring...maybe there is a short intermittent stream flowing in the Spring... It does not take a regular fully flowing creek to get fish in a lake. Being as I never studied your uncles lake I can not comment.

Cheers

Sun

[The Elkster]

Just a question. Has there ever been a case of someone caught red handed or admitting that they stocked perch illegally? I've never seen a case myself but I'm curious if anyone has heard something to that effect.

[Sundancefisher]

Just a question. Has there ever been a case of someone caught red handed or admitting that they stocked perch illegally? I've never seen a case myself but I'm curious if anyone has heard something to that effect.

Nearly impossible to catch. Considering how few F&W officers there are I would also think someone admitting it would be remote. Bragging maybe but admitting to a F&W officer...not likely.

[TreeGuy]

With all due respect, Sun, I must take issue with your closemindedness on this issue. I find it disappointing.

Does your 'science' have a valid theory as to how fish came to exist in high mountain lakes and landlocked ones eons before the invention of the bucket and the idiot?

Relocation of fish via birds seems to be a HIGHLY logical theory, and just because your 'science' can neither prove nor disprove the hypothesis, you choose to 'poo-poo' all over it. Isn't the true heart of science supposed to be about satisfying a curious mind? Getting answers? Isn't, according to 'Chaos Theory', ANYTHING possible given enough time?

I truely salute your efforts on Lake Sundance, but on this topic I must take issue with your stance.

Good luck Wednesday night!:)

Tree

[Morph1]

:lol: , you guys are all worng, perch were brought to us by Aliens from a galaxy billions miles away.... :lol: the intend was to take over the planet earth and eat everything in its path including us - humans :lol: :lol:

[Sundancefisher]

With all due respect, Sun, I must take issue with your closemindedness on this issue. I find it disappointing.

Does your 'science' have a valid theory as to how fish came to exist in high mountain lakes and landlocked ones eons before the invention of the bucket and the idiot?

Relocation of fish via birds seems to be a HIGHLY logical theory, and just because your 'science' can neither prove nor disprove the hypothesis, you choose to 'poo-poo' all over it. Isn't the true heart of science supposed to be about satisfying a curious mind? Getting answers? Isn't, according to 'Chaos Theory', ANYTHING possible given enough time?

I truely salute your efforts on Lake Sundance, but on this topic I must take issue with your stance.

Good luck Wednesday night!:)

Tree

Nothing wrong with different points of view. I appreciate your hope that people did not do such a terrible thing to fisheries...but as facts have it they outweigh the urban myths.

As one person mentioned...why perch only in Midnapore and Sundance. The common rumor has it that kids brought them from Sylvan to Midnapore years ago and then kids brought them from Midnapore to Sundance. If your theory held the test of reason...that it stands Bonaventure, Bonavista, Chaparral and MacKenzie should all have perch in them...especially Bonavista and Bonaventure.

Understanding the study I worked on years ago off of the Athabasca...only those water bodies that had intermittent or regular access to the Athabasca River had perch...others that were landlocked did not.

Your question on high mountain lakes...well you have to name it. Chances are in Alberta without a trib access they were stocked at some point. Give us some names to talk about rather than vague generalities. I can't discuss vagueness. As for landlocked salmon...again...not sure your connection to this arguement. If salmon were there...they were there...then when they could not get to the ocean they adapted. Chinook and Coho do it very easily in the Great Lakes. They actually tried salmon in Cold Lake I believe but it did not take. That would of been an interesting fishery.

I am not close minded rather protective of misinformation generated on theories that take away from the issue of make people less aware of the problem. Statistics can easily prove such a theory. If it is as simple as perch being "naturally" stocked by birds in 2 out of 6 older lakes down in South Calgary all within about 10-20 years...then how come out of hundreds of thousands of years all lakes were not stocked with perch naturally well before people got here? Statistics of that sort is easily proof. The hypothesis that perch were distributed in the Athabasca drainage according to trib access versus random was proved. Problem now is people are impacting future studies by illegally stocking. Maybe a genetics study would be the next phase to see where they were illegally stocked from.

If you think it logical that:

"A bird...dives down to 1-4 meters. Picks up some perch eggs that are stuck to the bottom and tucks them under its wings cradling them ever so gently so as to not pop them or drop them. Swims carefully back to the surface and then very carefully lifts off the water without dropping them or having them flushed from the feathers (every see a duck, loon, grebe or merganzer take off from a lake?). Then the bird flies super fast before the eggs dry out and die... (30 seconds to 1 minutes and yes an egg has a large surface area to size and a small trout can die out of the water in a minute or two)...then lands at another lake. Gently deposits the eggs away from any predators. Then the bird quickly flies back to secure another load upon load. Eventually enough eggs are deposited such that enough live to start a successful population. So simple it must happen easily"

Not sure how much better to picture it. Please give us your detailed example of how the eggs are transported understanding where the eggs are situated etc.

I am free to convince...how about pulling nets next week and then settle this with 6 inch perch at 10 paces?

Cheers

Sun

[~Octane~]

Nothing wrong with different points of view. I appreciate your hope that people did not do such a terrible thing to fisheries...but as facts have it they outweigh the urban myths.

As one person mentioned...why perch only in Midnapore and Sundance. The common rumor has it that kids brought them from Sylvan to Midnapore years ago and then kids brought them from Midnapore to Sundance. If your theory held the test of reason...that it stands Bonaventure, Bonavista, Chaparral and MacKenzie should all have perch in them...especially Bonavista and Bonaventure.

Understanding the study I worked on years ago off of the Athabasca...only those water bodies that had intermittent or regular access to the Athabasca River had perch...others that were landlocked did not.

Your question on high mountain lakes...well you have to name it. Chances are in Alberta without a trib access they were stocked at some point. Give us some names to talk about rather than vague generalities. I can't discuss vagueness. As for landlocked salmon...again...not sure your connection to this arguement. If salmon were there...they were there...then when they could not get to the ocean they adapted. Chinook and Coho do it very easily in the Great Lakes. They actually tried salmon in Cold Lake I believe but it did not take. That would of been an interesting fishery.

I am not close minded rather protective of misinformation generated on theories that take away from the issue of make people less aware of the problem. Statistics can easily prove such a theory. If it is as simple as perch being "naturally" stocked by birds in 2 out of 6 older lakes down in South Calgary all within about 10-20 years...then how come out of hundreds of thousands of years all lakes were not stocked with perch naturally well before people got here? Statistics of that sort is easily proof. The hypothesis that perch were distributed in the Athabasca drainage according to trib access versus random was proved. Problem now is people are impacting future studies by illegally stocking. Maybe a genetics study would be the next phase to see where they were illegally stocked from.

If you think it logical that:

"A bird...dives down to 1-4 meters. Picks up some perch eggs that are stuck to the bottom and tucks them under its wings cradling them ever so gently so as to not pop them or drop them. Swims carefully back to the surface and then very carefully lifts off the water without dropping them or having them flushed from the feathers (every see a duck, loon, grebe or merganzer take off from a lake?). Then the bird flies super fast before the eggs dry out and die... (30 seconds to 1 minutes and yes an egg has a large surface area to size and a small trout can die out of the water in a minute or two)...then lands at another lake. Gently deposits the eggs away from any predators. Then the bird quickly flies back to secure another load upon load. Eventually enough eggs are deposited such that enough live to start a successful population. So simple it must happen easily"

Not sure how much better to picture it. Please give us your detailed example of how the eggs are transported understanding where the eggs are situated etc.

I am free to convince...how about pulling nets next week and then settle this with 6 inch perch at 10 paces?

Cheers

Sun

Sun, we really dont need the exaggeration. The birds dont have to cradle anything. Perch eggs are pretty tough IMO. They could easily stick to a bird or duck or goose that flys from one body of water to the next. Doesn't take a goose too long to fly from Mink to Hasse. The perch eggs can be in a foot of water and when the ducks swim by they get stuck on their bottom, or were swimming underwater where its only a foot deep and had perch eggs stick on their back or something, the way i've seen perch eggs stick to things they could easily withstand the taking off of a duck. Dont have to gently deposit away from predators, THERE ARE NO PREDATORS in these lakes (relatively speaking)! Anywhere a duck swims the perch would be laying their eggs anyways. All you need to start a population is one male and one female that survive that are close to eachother...dont have to go back for more loads:rolleyes::rolleyes: Also, have you really ever seen how fast perch eggs dry or are just going by something written in a book?? Try it one day...I caught some perch eggs stuck to my hook the other day and set them on the dock to see how long they would take...was a good 15 minutes before the outsides were even close to a dry coating. If it happens on a rainy/moist day its VERY possible ducks or birds could be the culprit.

Finally I must say that I have SEEN a duck take off at close distance (I startled it) with eggs hanging off it. Thats the only thing I can think of that is similar to perch eggs in color and appearence. I wasn't even suprised with the mats upon mats of perch eggs in the shallows where these ducks swim. They even get stuck all over my waders and boots when i'm in my pontoon wading through weeds. I for one think your science is out to lunch. My 2 cents.

[TreeGuy]

So by your logic ALL landlocked/mountain lakes were 100% devoid of fish previous to mans existance?

There is certainly no doubt that Lk Sundance was illegally stocked with perch. No argument here.

Yet, I must ask........ why wouldn't have this taken place on the other SE man made lakes that are in very close proximity to each other? Why only Lk Sundance? I'm sorry, but this whole thing just doesn't feel right to me for some reason.

The most logical conclusion I can come to is that either the conditions for perch to not only survive, but thrive in that lake has to do with the lake itself. Perhaps it is the ideal perch nursery. Perhaps your neighbouring lakes are simply unable to support/foster a perch population. Who knows.

I'm essentially of the position that, given enough time ANYTHING is possible. Life is insidious and tenacious. If continants can drift, fish can fly.:D

Don't mind me. No hockey tonight, repeats on TV, and Mrs Tree has the flu. You have become tonight's source of amusement for me. Sorry dude!:lol:

Tree

[goober]

They even get stuck all over my waders and boots when i'm in my pontoon wading through weeds.

I now can tell my Grandchildren that it was a fisherman by the name of Octane that accidently put Perch in a favorite Trout hole. After reading this the "Bird Myth" is now done to me and it is officially the "Octane Stocking Myth"!!:lol::lol::wave:

[~Octane~]

I now can tell my Grandchildren that it was a fisherman by the name of Octane that accidently put Perch in a favorite Trout hole. After reading this the "Bird Myth" is now done to me and it is officially the "Octane Stocking Myth"!!:lol::lol::wave:

:lol::lol::lol: I make sure they are clean after leaving a lake for that reason..I believe they even say in the regs to do this because I guess it happens quite often.

[slingshotz]

This is clearly a case for Mythbusters!

[Sundancefisher]

This is clearly a case for Mythbusters!

Amen to that. I can picture it now...stapling eggs to fake bird wings and then remote flying them to a swimming pool.

At least at the very end of the show the dynamite on our lake will finish off the remaining perch :lol:

Octane...not sure if you were looking at perch eggs. I have seen my share over the years and they were not in mats but long stringy strands. Maybe you saw some amphibian egg clusters.

Well I can't comment on what you may of saw without being there. As for habitat in our lakes being different that the other lakes made the same...you got me with that logic also. Also the stickiness...have you tested the eggs for stickiness a day after laying?

Were was this perch observation made?

Cheers and viva la dynamite!:D

[~Octane~]

Amen to that. I can picture it now...stapling eggs to fake bird wings and then remote flying them to a swimming pool.

At least at the very end of the show the dynamite on our lake will finish off the remaining perch :lol:

Octane...not sure if you were looking at perch eggs. I have seen my share over the years and they were not in mats but long stringy strands. Maybe you saw some amphibian egg clusters.

Well I can't comment on what you may of saw without being there. As for habitat in our lakes being different that the other lakes made the same...you got me with that logic also. Also the stickiness...have you tested the eggs for stickiness a day after laying?


Were was this perch observation made?

Cheers and viva la dynamite!:D

Yes I know they are long and stringy, have seen them many times...and thats what I saw hanging off the duck. There were so many eggs in the shallows I labeled it as 'mats'..and my point was it would be almost impossible for a duck to swim in the shallows and NOT get fish eggs attached to it, at least where I saw. Saw this at Spring lake. Have only left the eggs out of water after reeling them in accidently, no day long experiments lol but all it takes is a couple mins for the ducks to transfer them lake to lake. They sure were sticky after coming out of the water though!

[steelhead]

How many waterfowl hunters have found shrimp stuck in the feathers of the birds they shot?

Shrimp are in almost every waterbody in this province. Even lanlocked sloughs.

Thes critters more than likeiy spread by waterfowl.


Totally possible for perch eggs to slip up into feathers before take off and make a short flight to another waterbody. It works for the shrimp.


Steelhead

[Sundancefisher]

How many waterfowl hunters have found shrimp stuck in the feathers of the birds they shot?

Shrimp are in almost every waterbody in this province. Even lanlocked sloughs.

Thes critters more than likeiy spread by waterfowl.


Totally possible for perch eggs to slip up into feathers before take off and make a short flight to another waterbody. It works for the shrimp.


Steelhead

So nobody has offered a reason as to why all of these transfers have occurred recently relatively speaking... Why are all lakes not naturally stocked with perch?

[dfrobert]

Good point steelhead! well put, and true.

[Morph1]

So nobody has offered a reason as to why all of these transfers have occurred recently relatively speaking... Why are all lakes not naturally stocked with perch?

This had been happening for many years and the lakes have been killed over and over,
and you know it yourself that the posibilities of the eggs being transfered by birds are maybe small
maybe this is the reason that this does not occur all the time.
You said it a couple of times that some lakes structure and type are not a perfect fit for perch species, perch adopts easier at certain water bodies and less at others. You come up with a question and answers that contradict to the previous posts entered by yourself..., same with the fish eggs you explained how sticky they were and yet you dismiss a posibilities of the eggs sticking to birds feathers, keep in mind some lakes are only 400 m apart, it would take a duck or loon or whatever bird to travel this distance in probably under 3 minutes time, and most if not all the lakes around Edmonton area carry perch and around Hasse lake as an example there are 5 lakes neighbouring within a distance of 3 km that got perch....
I appreciate your knowledge and input but you gotta be more flexible with reasoning, I mean you are an educated man in the field but you gotta keep an open mind to new ideas and posibilitie, just because you haven't witnessed things or seen them happening does not mean that they can not actually happen, with this approach I don't think you can learn more in your field, as everything halts and comes to a stop at what you've already learned from the books in the past :lol::lol:
Science evolves with time my friend....

[Sartorius]

Hey, all I was doing was trying to get a theory out there. I never said that the bucket brigade doesn't exist. In fact, I believe that the bucket brigade is the most likely cause of unwanted perch populations.

By the way, thanks for all the support everyone!!

[The Elkster]

Without clear proof the bucket brigade theory is just that...an unproven theory same as the others. Definitely a plausable theory and more likely than the bird scenario if looked at on a case by case scenario. But I think the bird scenario is totally within the realm of possibility. Sure its unlikely on a one off basis but how many thousands of birds move between waterways in a day? How about the fact they may spend most of their time in the area's where eggs are laid. Take all numbers into consideration and the odd transplanting may not be such a freak thing but rather a statistical certainty. Whether the fish take or not is another thing and something to consider when looking at lakes that you would think should have perch but don't...are they too cold perhaps? too acidic? etc.

Egg transfers could also happen innocently by the same means as invasive weeds. ie bilge water, livewell water etc. Who's to say how long a fertilized egg could stay viable if lodged in the middle of an egg mass in the feathers of a bird or plumbing of a boat. Only a few out of possibly thousands of eggs have to survive. Some transfers could even be the work of unknowing kids out collecting "minnows". Perch are pretty hardy and could live in a kids bucket til the family got to the next lake eh.


Something tells me the current situation is a combination of things and not just due to sinister motives.

[Unregistered user]

So by your logic ALL landlocked/mountain lakes were 100% devoid of fish previous to mans existance?

There is certainly no doubt that Lk Sundance was illegally stocked with perch. No argument here.

Yet, I must ask........ why wouldn't have this taken place on the other SE man made lakes that are in very close proximity to each other? Why only Lk Sundance? I'm sorry, but this whole thing just doesn't feel right to me for some reason.

The most logical conclusion I can come to is that either the conditions for perch to not only survive, but thrive in that lake has to do with the lake itself. Perhaps it is the ideal perch nursery. Perhaps your neighbouring lakes are simply unable to support/foster a perch population. Who knows.

I'm essentially of the position that, given enough time ANYTHING is possible. Life is insidious and tenacious. If continants can drift, fish can fly.:D

Don't mind me. No hockey tonight, repeats on TV, and Mrs Tree has the flu. You have become tonight's source of amusement for me. Sorry dude!:lol:

Tree

Many of the lakes in Banff were devoid of fish, the better ones were stocked by CP rail to help build the fledgling tourist industry.

[TreeGuy]

Many of the lakes in Banff were devoid of fish, the better ones were stocked by CP rail to help build the fledgling tourist industry.

Thanks for the info. No argument here.:wave:

Look, I was simply bustin' Sun's ballz for my own personal amusement. However, the 'take' I bring to the discusion has a horticultural spin on it.

In terms of plant life, seeds are also eggs. A source of life. Over millions upon millions of years, in order to perserve and propogate your species, eggs/seeds have adapted many different mechanisms to both survive and disperse.

Plant seeds have learned how to fly. Dandelions are a great example. So are certain species of Maples, where there seed enclosure resembles a wing and they 'helicoptor' into the wind to propogate themselves elsewhere.

Other plants such as Burddocks have p@ickly seeds that attach themselves to anything that comes into contact with them to disperse.

The examples in the plant world are unbelievably numberous. This is a result of evolution and Darwin's theory of 'Survival of the Fittest'.

Why would fish eggs be any different? Why would you NOT consider the 'stickiness' of roe to be an evolutionary adaptation designed around both the egg bed and as a source of potential distribution?

Think of it this way. Not all bodies of water are conducive to supporting any/all species of fish. Not all bodies of water are conducive to supporting/attracting birds that would act as ideal cabbies. Not all bodies of water that would work well enough in such potential situations are near enough to each other for such occurances to happen. That's life.

I guess my final question would have to be, "When did science and common sense part ways?". My guess is that it happened as soon as 'independant' funding came into play. Sad.

Tree

[AxeMan]

Tree, it's interesting that you mentioned Dandelions in this thread. I know we are getting off topic a bit (sorry), but Dandelions were introduced to Norh America by early European immigrants. The seeds didn't fly here. Kind of gives credence to Sun's theory on Perch eggs.....lol. Now those damn yellow things are taking over just like those transplanted perch in our trout lakes. Just kidding around but I couldn't help notice the similarities.

[Unregistered user]

^ Also notice this year what a crop of dandelions we're getting now that the predator has been taken out of the equation. The city has suspended spraying.

[godziuk]

Just thought I would share this. My uncle Ray lives near Perth in Ontario. For more than 20 years he has had his own trout pond that he dug out with a dragline. The pond is strictly spring fed. There is no inlet or out or moving water source into his pond. Over the years he has had to kill off and restock his pond 3 times with rainbows. This has nothing to due with diminishing numbers of trout left in the pond from catching and keeping alot of the fish stocked.

The reason he has had to kill off the lake and restock it every 5/6 years is due to invasive species of fish getting into the lake. The culprits you ask? For the most part have been pumkinseed (sunfish) and shiners from nearby water bodies. The only possible way this could have happened is from birds getting fertilized eggs stuck to various parts of their bodies in nearby lakes and then going for a swim in the trout pond, which is a short flight away i might add.

For the most part he would let the pumkinseed and and shiners do their thing in his stocked pond for a few years and then start over, as it made the trout fishing poor for a number of reasons. Lack of a good diet for the trout was definitely one of the reasons.

I don't think its very hard to visualize a water bird to get some freshly fertilized eggs in their feet or feathers and then go for a splash in the nearby trout pond and deposit the eggs here. I am definitely a believer in this theory as I have seen the evidence more than once. HOWEVER, I also believe that most of the perch getting into the quality stocked lakes in Alberta that have recently be placed under the microscope are due to a whole different phenomenon.......The Bucket Brigade! :mad:


maybe someone doesnt like your uncle...lol. maybe a few fish are bird transported but in Alberta these lakes have been illegally stocked, never in a 10yr period before have so many (23 or so) lakes been over run by perch. im not complaining as id rather eat a perch than a rainbow!!!