Drooling over bighorns

[sheepguide]

Just a Pic i took a week ago to give you sheep hunters the itch 12390

[nube]

You seem to do your fair share of hunting rams. You have any pictures of any bighorns you have shot yourself?

[sheepguide]

Ill scan a couple pics of rams i shot they were shot almost 18 years ago i got two rams back then and vowed to not shoot another unless he is a monster (180" min.). I dont beleive in shooting legal sheep every year you can. Maybe ill find that right ram and maybe not but i have alot of fun looking for him and have a good time helping guys find their first rams. Ill post some of my guided rams too one of these days.

[Springer]

Anxiously awaiting more pics Sheepguide !! What a Toad that one is hey.
Are ever not hunting,scouting or guiding :D
We are still planning our first Sheephunt this Fall. My quest is to convert my backpacking gear over to horse packing gear. I may ask a few questions along the way via PM or something.
Thanks for posting.

[hal53]

Ill scan a couple pics of rams i shot they were shot almost 18 years ago i got two rams back then and vowed to not shoot another unless he is a monster (180" min.). I dont beleive in shooting legal sheep every year you can. Maybe ill find that right ram and maybe not but i have alot of fun looking for him and have a good time helping guys find their first rams. Ill post some of my guided rams too one of these days.
X2!!!!!...Good on you....enjoy your pics......

[sheepguide]

Here is one more boys 12398

[steve]

Nice pics

Are these cadomin/park rams?

[hal53]

His addy says he's from Caroiline....I would guess Lost Guide/ Harrison Flats country?????

[steve]

His addy says he's from Caroiline....I would guess Lost Guide/ Harrison Flats country?????

could be... or james/clearwater country but im not sure

[ovis40]

[QUOTE=sheepguide;325946]
I dont beleive in shooting legal sheep every year you can. QUOTE]

2X I like your way of thinking! I met a guy a few years back that said he had 5 bighorns. He said he has good luck and it isn't hard to get a ram. I was really looking forward to seeing his pictures. The first ram was a young legal ram, the second ram was a nice broomed (couldn't wait to see the rest) ram. I was shocked to see #'s 3, 4, 5 were smaller than his first ram. One didn't even look like it would have made the line.

[nube]

2X I like your way of thinking! I met a guy a few years back that said he had 5 bighorns. He said he has good luck and it isn't hard to get a ram. I was really looking forward to seeing his pictures. The first ram was a young legal ram, the second ram was a nice broomed (couldn't wait to see the rest) ram. I was shocked to see #'s 3, 4, 5 were smaller than his first ram. One didn't even look like it would have made the line

I don't think there is anything wrong with shooting a ram if you want to shoot it. Guys do it all the time for deer, moose and everything else. I also agree that they are not that hard to find.. I knew a guy with 18 of them. Nothing wrong with that I don't think. We all enjoy hunting and to me it is not the size that maters as much as the enjoyment of the hunt. If you only want to shoot a couple big rams in your life then sit and enjoy hunting Cadomin and kill one or 2 big rams in your life. That ain't for me but whatever floats your boat

[sheepguide]

Your right Nube but our ram populations arent like the deer populations why not let these rams get to be mature before everyone blasts them. You dont go shoot a spike whitetail every year do you? I dont see anything wrong with shooting 5 or 6 rams but if every two years you shoot a 5 1/2 year old ram your just out to shoot. Sorry if you dont agree with this but its my opinion.(and most sheep fanatics that I know).

[sheepguide]

Oh and the first ram is Cadomin and the second has to be a secret sorry hoping to get a buddy on him this fall.

[LongDraw]

With sheep on a general tag- 4/5 curl in the majority of the province a few guys deciding not to kill 5-7 year old rams is not going to increase the age structure.

[sheepguide]

thats easy to change just go like the stone sheep, full curl or 8 year old rams then you would start seeing some more mature rams in most areas I know this comment is gunna get lots of replys but im a beleiver that animals should grow to maturity before being shot(deer,elk,moose,sheep, etc.). If you want to hunt or meat then apply for non trophy tags and help with population management. And there will be guys saying its to hard to count rings on a bighorn. And to that i say B.S because ive looked at hundreds of bighorns and I always age rams and its not hard to do.

[nube]

Your right Nube but our ram populations arent like the deer populations why not let these rams get to be mature before everyone blasts them. You dont go shoot a spike whitetail every year do you? I dont see anything wrong with shooting 5 or 6 rams but if every two years you shoot a 5 1/2 year old ram your just out to shoot. Sorry if you dont agree with this but its my opinion.(and most sheep fanatics that I know).

Well I guess I am not a fanatic and don't fit into that sheephunter clique then.:)
Rams are mature at 4/5 curl so I don't understand what you mean by MATURE enough to shoot. Most bearly legal rams I have shot are around 6-7 years old.
All I am going to say is a guy can shoot what he wants. There are more sheep in most of the WMU's than we use to have. Heck there are only 130 or so rams shot a year anyways.
I have passed on rams only to shoot smaller in the past. I have enjoyed all of my ram kills and I would say that my biggest which is book was the easiest and less memorable and fulfilling hunt I have had. My smallest means the most to me. To me it is all in the hunt. I am just voicing my opinion here on what I think on the matter and don't want to debate it all. I respect those that think oposite of me. At times I think it would be nice if we all could pass them up to be able to kill full curl rams every 2 years but I'm not going to worry about it right now.

[sheephunter]

thats easy to change just go like the stone sheep, full curl or 8 year old rams then you would start seeing some more mature rams in most areas I know this comment is gunna get lots of replys but im a beleiver that animals should grow to maturity before being shot(deer,elk,moose,sheep, etc.). If you want to hunt or meat then apply for non trophy tags and help with population management. And there will be guys saying its to hard to count rings on a bighorn. And to that i say B.S because ive looked at hundreds of bighorns and I always age rams and its not hard to do.

I beg to differ on aging bighorns.....it is hard to do. Heck, try to get two people to agree on the age of a dead one, let alone a live one at 200 yards. Thinhorns are fairly easy no doubt but the rings are just not defined enough on many bighorn rams. At least that's my experience. As for full curl, it would work in some areas but definitely not in others. A large portion of K-Country rams for example will never be full curl, regardless of how old they get.

[nube]

I agree Sheephunter. K country has some big loopy suckers. If you want to get more trophy quality you need draws but I am not a fan of them unless you can get one every 3 years or something like that and it still might not do anything for the herd anyways. I have always thought that you could make it like this. Shoot a 4/5 ram or under 8 years old and have to wait 3 or 4 years to hunt. if you shoot a full curl or older than 8 then every 2 years. That may change things and guys like me won't be filling the wall with "dink rams":lol:

[209x50]

I'd agree with sheephunter on the aging, especially when you have F&W officers holding the head in their hands and 3 guys come up with three different ages. I'd hate to have to hunt under those kind of uncertain circumstances.

[LongDraw]

I think that the 4/5 and general tag work good. Talking to one of the biologists that mangages K country- ghost area the age structure is stable and overall numbers (ewes and rams) are stable/increasing.

I would rather see it made toughter to access sheep areas- ie, get rid of quads and 4x4's in all the 400 series WMU's, horses only on main routes, this would be a great start to keep the general tag opportunity yet limit harvest.

Introduce more areas on draw in the late season (November) to kill a few more rams that will die of old age is another great change that gives a legitimate chance at a book animal.

[sheepguide]

fair enough Nube. We all have our opinions and could argue for along time about them. Your right that we just need to enjoy the hunt and for me the shooting of something is the farthest thing away from making a good hunt. But one last note on the mature deal ive watched sheep in the rut from cadomin to sheep river and most areas in between and you do not see these 5 and 6 year old rams doing the breading. The odd area that does not have sactuary or park influence then a few young rams will maybe breed but there arent to many areas like this.

[sheepguide]

Tough subject to tackle Longdraw as I am mainly a horse hunter but do hunt off an atv also. I think that everyone needs the oppertunity to hunt and not everyone has the use of horses and there arent many areas left in the 400 zones that you are allowed to take atvs already. And most areas that you can go only have limited tails to use(at least any where I hunt).

[nube]

Longdraw, I like your thinking. I am in my 30's and your thoughts are good for me in limiting how easy an area is to get into but when I am older I think I would be against your thoughts. I think I am going to kill all my sheep when I am young and then dedicate my senior years to elk hunting.:)
I think access has a lot to do with it. The last 3 times out sheephunting I have killed my rams in less than 2 days after a long distance to get in. The sheep did not have a lot of presure and it proved to me you have to get away from the easy access areas. I hear people complaining how hard it is to find legal rams yet they drive their truck up and down the pavement year after yea glassing from their truck. Even those 1day quad trecks into a basin to look is hit hard enough the sheep do not frequent it as much as if it was left less disterbed. Got to burn a hole in the boots to really get into them consistently.

[Springer]

On the subject of aging a Bighorm Ram and being a newbie to it,I have to admit i have trouble aging the rings close together at the base. does anyone have any info to point out each ring and the aging process 101.
Thanks.

[sheepguide]

Well I know that you two(sheephunter and 209x50) are the sheep gurus of alberta but our game wardens with the exceptions of a couple cant judge 4/5 curl most days either. As a few guys have been finding out lately. A friend of mine took a guy out and they shot a sheep that was an inch over legal and had it taken away. They beat it in court on lack of knowledge by the Fish and wildlife officer. And have read about a few other such cases. As far as aging I agree that its harder than stones or dall but it is possible. JMO

[sheephunter]

Well I know that you two(sheephunter and 209x50) are the sheep gurus of alberta but our game wardens with the exceptions of a couple cant judge 4/5 curl most days either. As a few guys have been finding out lately. A friend of mine took a guy out and they shot a sheep that was an inch over legal and had it taken away. They beat it in court on lack of knowledge by the Fish and wildlife officer. And have read about a few other such cases. As far as aging I agree that its harder than stones or dall but it is possible. JMO

Judging 4/5 on a dead one is pretty simple with the use of a square. Too bad your buddy got caught in a mess but my experience is that the 4/5th part is a no-brainer, especially if we are talking an inch legal. At that point it may as well be a mile. Now in regards to age, It's rare to get the same age from two officers and as some rings can be somewhat subjective, I'd hate to see that used for determing legality. I'm far from a sheep guru....I've just spent the better part of 25 years hunting them and have enjoyed some limited success but I learn more about them every day. Possibly one day I'll learn to age them in the field like you can but after looking at thousands if not tens of thousands of rams, it's a talent I can't claim nor can anyone else I know. You are indeed unique in your talent.

[ovis40]

Judging 4/5 on a dead one is pretty simple with the use of a square. Too bad your buddy got caught in a mess but my experience is that the 4/5th part is a no-brainer, especially if we are talking an inch legal. At that point it may as well be a mile. Now in regards to age, It's rare to get the same age from two officers and as some rings can be somewhat subjective, I'd hate to see that used for determing legality. I'm far from a sheep guru....I've just spent the better part of 25 years hunting them and have enjoyed some limited success but I learn more about them every day. Possibly one day I'll learn to age them in the field like you can but after looking at thousands if not tens of thousands of rams, it's a talent I can't claim nor can anyone else I know. You are indeed unique in your talent.

Holy Moly....tens of thousands of rams...thats a lot of days in the field. I think the sheep ship is getting a bit deep

[sheepguide]

so do you sheephunter agree with guys going out and shooting just legal rams every two years(5 1/2 and 6 1/2yr olds)?

[sheephunter]

Holy Moly....tens of thousands of rams...thats a lot of days in the field. I think the sheep ship is getting a bit deep

That's counting rams in the parks and Cadomin.......I did a lot of sheep photography at one time and still do a fair bit. It is nothing to see a hundred rams in a day in some areas. I've definitely not seen that many hunting but wouldn't say it's an exageration at all for the number of rams I've seen in my life, in and out of parks....

[sheepguide]

x2 Ovis LOL

[sheephunter]

so do you sheephunter agree with guys going out and shooting just legal rams every two years(5 1/2 and 6 1/2yr olds)?

Really doesn't matter if I agree or not as it's legal and I'm not about to criticize a legal hunter. It's not something I do but there's lots of things that I do that others likely don't.

[sheepguide]

Fair enough sheephunter. Point taken. So who did you hunt in the Clearwater with?

[ovis40]

Let,s see some more pictures!!

[sheephunter]

Fair enough sheephunter. Point taken. So who did you hunt in the Clearwater with?

A buddy!

[sleslie]

It seems to me Sheepguide that you are just looking for an argument on here. I'm sure there are some who agree with you and some who don't, but i am pretty sure we all are aware of where you stand on the subject already. You sure do a lot of talking for a guy who hasn't even presented a pic of a sheep you have shot.

[nube]

Well what do you think is shootable Sheepguide? 34 inch ram 36" ram. Something scoring 155 , 160, 165? What is a killable ram for you? And what do you think should be a killable ram for others?

[Jamie]

It seems to me Sheepguide that you are just looking for an argument on here. I'm sure there are some who agree with you and some who don't, but i am pretty sure we all are aware of where you stand on the subject already. You sure do a lot of talking for a guy who hasn't even presented a pic of a sheep you have shot.
THROW DOWN!!!

:lol::lol:

[Jamie]

I dont know boys..
From a Non sheep hunter, I have allways admired any ram.
If its legal.. ITS A GREAT ONE!

Somday, I will chase those sheep.. Just gota keep working at it.

Jamie

[sheepguide]

Well ill post some on thursday when i get back to work as i dont have a scanner here and my bighorn pics are on paper all I have on this computer are a few stone rams i guided for. So relax and you will see some pics.

[sheepguide]

I agree Jamie, all legal rams are indeed a trophy and thats the point i started out trying to make that it would be nice if guys didnt shoot a just legal sheep every two years then all the newby sheep hunters will have a chance to get their Trophy. But sounds like im just looking to argue

[sheepguide]

To me a shooter ram doesnt go by score as all areas differ in size of sheep. Some zones will never produce a sheep over 175 while others produce book sheep every year. Thats why I feel rams should go by age but that obviously scares alot of guys so im not gunna get back into that topic.

[sheep nut]

Ill scan a couple pics of rams i shot they were shot almost 18 years ago i got two rams back then and vowed to not shoot another unless he is a monster (180" min.). I dont beleive in shooting legal sheep every year you can. Maybe ill find that right ram and maybe not but i have alot of fun looking for him and have a good time helping guys find their first rams. Ill post some of my guided rams too one of these days.

This is how I think as well, and the guys that I hunt with. MY PERSONAL OPINION is get a ram under your belt, then hunt till you find a monster. My first ram was a whopping 155 and it was the funnest hunt ever. Since then, I've passed 178,176,172 and 3 more smaller to friends I've taken out. We feel that sheep are to special to shoot every time you find a legal one. I have as much fun helping my friends get their first ram as I did getting my own. In my area if you shot a smaller ram than you did last time, you would be frowned upon.
My 2 cents. PS( I wish I'd not passed that 178 ram)

[nube]

I understand that areas like wilmore may not have as big of rams but I am interested in what you would be a shooter in a wilmore and then the rest of the province?

[ovis40]

Rams on winter range (early spring) No this isn't Cadomin

[sheep nut]

Nice.

[LongDraw]

I can appreciate the thought of not shooting "just legal" 5-6 year old rams once you have killed one or two, but how many guys actually do this every two years for 10 years? The success rate is very low, a few guys have got finding legal rams figured, but the only way to truly limit the ammount of rams being killed is limited entry and limited access, or a combination of both.

I know that AB FNAWS put a motion forward for a lifetime limit of 3 rams to put pressure on hunters to kill older sheep, but really the resource is holding up well in the general areas as it is now, The biologist that does the count confirmed this.

I would definately support more late season hunts and maybe a few areas within WMU's going limited entry where more pressure is put on the resource (areas with ATV access).

You cannot blame a guy that has a string of small rams on his wall for the lack of older rams on the mountain when what he is not doing anything against the rules.

[TangoKilo]

I'm a little bit embarrased to admit in present company that I have hunted sheep for 15 years and not killed a ram. Next year Ill get one is the mantra chanted marching down the mountain on October 31 each year.

To be honest, I will be shooting the first solid legal ram that I find (And get close to). If i can say with certainty that he is legal, I'm going to shoot. PERIOD.
After the first one, who knows what Ill do. Id like to think that I would wait for something bigger. At this point it's just speculation.

As for the system in Alberta, I think that it works very well. I appreciate the ability to hunt sheep each year if I am unsucessful. If all sheep were relegated to a draw that you get every 3 years, I would have only had the opportunity to hunt sheep for 5 seasons. If anything in the system needs tweaking, I would suggest that hunters who sucessfully harvest a ram should have to wait 2 years instead of just one before hunting sheep again. This would encourage hunters to harvest larger/Older rams. And allow guys like me who never kill one to keep playing in the mountains year after year.

[sheephunter]

Ya, I gotta agree with you Longdraw. There are a handful of guys that have killed a number of small rams and they make a great scapegoat but I'd guess their impact on the overall population of rams is negligible. From the number of 5-6 year old rams I've found dead over the years in avalanche chutes, I'm guessing many of those young rams that were hunter killed wouldn't have made eight anyhow. If people want to consistently kill big rams, very limited draws or late-season hunts are the only way to do it.

With that said, we are finally getting over the brutal winters of 1996 and 97 and not only are ram populations up, so too is quality. It seems a lot of people forget about how severe those winters were and the impact they had on our sheep. I'm actually impressed how many good rams there are out there right now and it seems to be getting better every year. I might find a book ram before I'm 60...:D

[sheepguide]

Dont feel embarassed Tango as there are a lot of hunters out there that have put in alot of years hunting sheep and have no ram on the wall. The only way to consistently kill big horns is to put in lots of days in the field. Anyone that says they can kill a legal ram easily is full of it. I turn down a few legal rams every year but I hunt minimum of 10-15 days in Sept. and usually hunt all of October unless im guiding in B.C.

[drake]

good thread guys, very interesting. Way to stay on topic and keep your conversations civil~

[bullgetter]

I'm a little bit embarrased to admit in present company that I have hunted sheep for 15 years and not killed a ram. Next year Ill get one is the mantra chanted marching down the mountain on October 31 each year.

To be honest, I will be shooting the first solid legal ram that I find (And get close to). If i can say with certainty that he is legal, I'm going to shoot. PERIOD.
After the first one, who knows what Ill do. Id like to think that I would wait for something bigger. At this point it's just speculation.

As for the system in Alberta, I think that it works very well. I appreciate the ability to hunt sheep each year if I am unsucessful. If all sheep were relegated to a draw that you get every 3 years, I would have only had the opportunity to hunt sheep for 5 seasons. If anything in the system needs tweaking, I would suggest that hunters who sucessfully harvest a ram should have to wait 2 years instead of just one before hunting sheep again. This would encourage hunters to harvest larger/Older rams. And allow guys like me who never kill one to keep playing in the mountains year after year.

I'm in the same boat. I just want to get that first one over with! As long as he's legal I'm shooting.
I would like to see sheep on draw everywhere. Yes you may be drawn only every 5 years but it would be a quality hunt. I've done the cadomin thing enough times it's not for me anymore. I was more worried about the guy around the corner then finding a ram and could never enjoy the hunt. A sheep hunt in Alberta without running into anyother people is the dream. I hunt Dall's in NWT back in 05. That was sheep hunting, no people lot's of sheep and beautiful country.

[sheephunter]

A sheep hunt in Alberta without running into anyother people is the dream.

I hear so many people say this but I rarely run into more than 5 or 6 people in an entire season and I hunt a few of the busiest WMUs in the province. If you aren't having success and you are seeing lots of people, it's time to sit down and reevaluate they way you are hunting sheep. There are loads of opportunities out there for the person that wants to get away from it all and it's been my experience that that's where you'll find sheep too. For me, sheep hunting is all about the experience and the kill is a bonus. There are still loads of out of the way hidy holes, often only a few hour's hike from the road that see virtually no pressure. Half the fun is getting out there and finding them. I've been part of three bighorn kills in the past two years and never once did we see a person on any of those hunts.

Start exploring some new country. Pour over maps. Follow up on rumours no matter how obscure and suddenly you'll find yourself alone in the Alberta wilderness looking at some legal rams. There is great sheep hunting from Waterton north to Kakwa and the best advice is to pick a chunk of it and learn it well. Become intimate with the area and you'll be amazed how many sheep actually live there and how few hunters go there.

[nube]

The only way to consistently kill big horns is to put in lots of days in the field. Anyone that says they can kill a legal ram easily is full of it.

I must be full of it then. The last 3 rams I have killed took 6 days total and that was with a day of travel to get into the area.

[Frans]

OK, nube, we get it, you find rams easily. Good on you. Don't know where or how you acquired the skills and the knowledge or the luck, but they seem to serve you well. You may be the exception, I think.

For the rest of us that don't have your experience, it may come a bit harder. I took one ram, poohoo. Took me twenty days to find one legal ram back in '04. I've had many very long days in the mountains since, and I'm not seeing very many rams. But heck, I keep trying. I look for new areas all the time. Seldomly do I hunt the same slope more than twice in a season. Just gets too boring to trudge up the same trail all the time. I did start (last year) to select an area and hunt it from various angles over the course of the season. That way I hope the effort will be a bit less hit and miss. The rams are there somewhere; by being a bit more methodical hopefully I'll find another one worthy of stalking some year soon.

I already picked an area that I will be targetting for some scouting. I'll probably set up a camp for a few days, and scout/hunt a few adjacent basins. That way it'll take the dreariness of the long approaches out of it a little bit.

What can I say, I love the high country. 80% of the sheep hunting fun for me is seeing new country, and that keeps me going time and time again.

Frans

[sheephunter]

Ya, I gotta agree with you Frans, bighorns don't come easy for me either. I put in a ton of time in the summer scouting and then hit the hills hard in the fall and occasionally I get lucky. The only secret I've found for bighorns is hard work. I wish I posessed nube's skills as well...it would leave a lot more time for bow hunting...:D

[nube]

I don't mean to say the things I do to brag. It really is not hard to kill a ram in a season if you really want to. I do not have nay secret spots but I do understand the sheep in my areas I hunt. If you are not having luck you are not doing some things right.
Frans, just by your post ther is one big problem I see already. You say you can't stand hunting the same area. BIG problem number 1. You need to learn that area inside and out. Like you said in your post you know the rams are somewhere in there. Now go and figure them out. They don't disapear and don't come back. They have their little holes to hide in. It my be a cleraring in the trees near a cliff, a small chute that is unseen or near a creek or something but you need to find those little hidden spots. The last 2 rams I shot were hiden under a 400 foot cliff with trees right up to it. Close to the feeding slope. They come out to eat on the slope at dusk or early in morning and if you are not there at those times you will not see them. I killed both rams within 300 yards of eachother under the cliff. First hunt there had been 7 guys in the main base camp for 2 days before me. They said they kept seeing tracks in the snow on the slope but did not know where the sheep were. 16 rams in the bunch I counted and I hiked up the next morning and whacked one because I knew exactly where they were going to be. The hunters in camp sure wanted to know where I got it and they were camping right under them.
Sheephunter you say you do a lot of scouting in the summer. It may work for you but I think it is a waste of time for me. I have dne it and found monster rams and been all excited only to find out later it is either the winter range and they are still hanging out there or it gets so presured in the fall that those rams seldom come back and usually are sitting in some park or sanctuary till they have to leave because of weather or breeding.
Breeeding, now that is another topic as well. Yes sheep breed and from wjhat I have seen they do it in November. Rams may be moving a bit the last week in October but you will have more hunting pressure and the rams really are not looking to hard at that time and to me hunting the ewes is a waste of time as well. Usually it is the small rams that are hanging with the ewes. My 2 cents as well and this is not doctrine but all of this works for me so take it for what it is worth.
Another thing that bugs me is how guys hike around. A lot of guys think it is nothing to park their tent at the top of the hill for the whole country to see or within a short hike to the sheep meadow or hike within easy view of where rams can see them. Yes at times it is the easiest route but come on do you think those rams do not see you? If you are out in the open they know you are there before you see them most of the time. You need to be quiet in your camping spot. One outfitter I know chops and cuts all his wood before the season. You don't think those rams can here you while chopping or chainsawing wood or hear the horses in the valley with bells?
I might sound a little anla and crazy in my thinking but my main point is that there are lots of legal rams out there. If you want one and are having trouble figure out what you are doing wrong and fix it. Find an area that produces and figure it inside and out. once you kill or find your first legal rams it only gets easier. Most of the successfull sheephunters in Alberta are repeat killers and they are for a reason. It does not take 10 years of hunting to kill one of these things.
Take my thoughts for what they are worth. Sorry if I offend or sound to be mr. know it all but this works for me and if it helps then great. If you want to ignore it then continue doing what you do.
Good luck
On a side note it would be great to get some pictures going. MAybe we should start a bighorn picutre thread and guys can post their trophies. If someone wants to start one I'll add a few but I think you have seen a bunch of them already. I might be able to dig up some new ones if I can figure out the scanner thing.

[sheephunter]

Sheephunter you say you do a lot of scouting in the summer. It may work for you but I think it is a waste of time for me. I have dne it and found monster rams and been all excited only to find out later it is either the winter range and they are still hanging out there or it gets so presured in the fall that those rams seldom come back and usually are sitting in some park or sanctuary till they have to leave because of weather or breeding.


I'm not scouting for sheep in the summer, I'm scouting for sheep areas that are out of the way. Some of my best areas are places where I never saw a sheep while scouting but they just looked sheepy but with the success you enjoy, you likely are right. Oh well, I still like getting out in the mountains and it helps get me ready for carrying a pack in the fall. I thought I could tell the difference between wintering areas and summer range but I guess you could be right that I am wasting my time. Thanks for the tip!

[whitetailsheds]

I'm a little bit embarrased to admit in present company that I have hunted sheep for 15 years and not killed a ram. Next year Ill get one is the mantra chanted marching down the mountain on October 31 each year.

To be honest, I will be shooting the first solid legal ram that I find (And get close to). If i can say with certainty that he is legal, I'm going to shoot. PERIOD.
After the first one, who knows what Ill do. Id like to think that I would wait for something bigger. At this point it's just speculation.

As for the system in Alberta, I think that it works very well. I appreciate the ability to hunt sheep each year if I am unsucessful. If all sheep were relegated to a draw that you get every 3 years, I would have only had the opportunity to hunt sheep for 5 seasons. If anything in the system needs tweaking, I would suggest that hunters who sucessfully harvest a ram should have to wait 2 years instead of just one before hunting sheep again. This would encourage hunters to harvest larger/Older rams. And allow guys like me who never kill one to keep playing in the mountains year after year.

Keep at 'er Tango. Do not be embarrassed. Admire your persistence for not giving up.
Finally, on my 14th trip over 17 years, I got my first stone ram. Persistance, patience, keeping in good shape, and the draw of being in them mountains will get you that ram.
I have found alot of successful sheep hunters have been given "the 411" on areas and thus success. And, I will admit this was a factor for myself. I had found out from a complete stranger that I had been in the proximity of rams, but that I needed to "just go over one more ridge". Didn't mean I was going to get one, but it sure helps in the confidence/ optimism department.
In this instance though it did help as I finally got a ram. (Thanks chain2!)
Until then, I was just getting "out there". Plenty of times I asked myself, "WTF am I doing?" Had to remind myself of just being able to get into those hills was a huge accomplishment. Without that ability alone, you ain't sheep hunting.
Taking the pressure off myself to get a ram helped as well. Being able to relax, and have the patience to look over the hills and cliffs really well helped.
I always wanted to walk, walk, walk. Gotta see lotsa country.
You can see lotsa country, but I was missing what was "in the country, on the sides of those hills bedded down, what would walk over the ridge in the next couple minutes."
Being told where to go helps, but still no guarantees.

[sheephunter]

First hunt there had been 7 guys in the main base camp for 2 days before me. They said they kept seeing tracks in the snow on the slope but did not know where the sheep were. 16 rams in the bunch I counted and I hiked up the next morning and whacked one because I knew exactly where they were going to be. The hunters in camp sure wanted to know where I got it and they were camping right under them.


Wow, seven guys couldn't find 16 rams with snow on the ground....You'd figure a blind man could find 16 rams with snow on the ground. I guess that's why success rates are so low in Alberta.

[Frans]

Frans, just by your post ther is one big problem I see already. You say you can't stand hunting the same area. BIG problem number 1. You need to learn that area inside and out.

Some confirmation that rams actually exist in the area would help the confidence and the resolve to stay in one area until I find them. They sure aren't in every basin or every high meadow.

I can feel the time coming that I won't be cruising the ridges like a madman. Maybe that time is closer than I think. That might be the time that I start poking around in a much smaller area, and learn it intimately. For now, there is still so much more new country to see and explore! If that means I won't get a ram every second year, so be it.

I promise not to whine too much about it. Only a little bit. :-)

Frans

[ABDUKNUT]

Some day I'll head up the hill and wack a sheep for myself. Problem is, the season interferes in a timeframe where I'm faced with more pressing issues. I think I'll hold out untill I draw my 446 tag.

Here's a couple pics I took through my spotter. This is a general tag area, but a day or 2 after the season closed. About a dozen in this bunch including a few that might have been legal targets. We were elk hunting at the time in an area that likely sees few hunters.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s49/meathunter_2007/sheep2.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s49/meathunter_2007/sheep.jpg

[sheephunter]

Man, I'd hate to make the call on that ram in the bottom picture. My gut says he's legal but as close as he is, I think I'd have to say don't shoot. The one bouhuntress shot a couple years ago is only about a 1/4" more legal but he was likely 6-8 inches longer. I hate calling them that close. That ram will definitely be legal this year though! You might want to head there a few days earlier!

[Swagger]

I would also like to see Alberta implement some type of age factor into sheep hunting regulations. I think the 4/5th rule is a good one but I also get a little sad when some guys dump squeakers every two years just because they can. My recommendation would be that the 4/5 rule should stand but if the sheep doesn’t make a certain age, say 7.5 years, the hunter should have to wait an extra year two.

Agreeably, judging age might be tough, but so what. If you think the sheep is over the certain threshold and it ends up a year or two shy all you have to do is wait an extra couple of years. It just gives you something to think about before you pull the trigger. Chances are you have a nice trophy anyway.

As far as subjectivity goes, the 4/5th rule is NOT as black and white as some people would like to believe. The number of sheep confiscated or left on the mountain every year can attest to that.

To me, sheep are coveted and deserve respect - especially the big old monarch rams. Logic dictates that it takes a small ram to make a big ram so if all the rams are shot off at 4/5th curl, the chances of producing the type of sheep I like to see on the mountains are pretty slim. In my mind, this is definitely a problem in Alberta today.

[ABDUKNUT]

Yup close, very close... I think I'll hold out for the coveted draw tag and get into some big ones. No sense in muckin around with the small ones, when the alternative of non-trophy tags are easy to get and offer an opportunity to bag a 'sheep' without all the pressure.

As far as the regulations, I don't think management geared towards the trophy hunters is the way to go. Next it will be minimum 6-point in all general elk units, cutting deer season off during the rut, minimum spread/points for moose, etc. I think the reg's are fine the way they are, and the biologists agree.

[TangoKilo]

Thanks for all of the great advise guys. Its great to hear from such accomplished sheep hunters. You all make very good points on where and how to Kill rams.

Nube, what you say about doing something wrong is incredibly basic, but it makes sense and is often overlooked. I am clearly doing something wrong in my sheep hunting, I need to step back and think to myself, what do I need to do differently. Doing exactly the same thing year after year and expecting different results is not smart.

Do you guys hunt one spot all season? A couple of good locations per season? How do you manage your time?

[sheephunter]

I'm still not sure there are a lot of guys killing multiple small rams. We have one on this site and there are a lot of serious sheep hunters on here. I think it's more a case of a lot of sheep hunters taking a ram or two. You can't blame a first-time sheep hunter for killing the first legal ram he sees and there are a lot that do that each year but I just don't see there being a lot of people that have already killed rams shooting squeekers. I could be wrong but I just don't think stopping a handful of guys from hunting for a year or two would make any difference at all to sheep populations.

[sheephunter]

Do you guys hunt one spot all season? A couple of good locations per season? How do you manage your time?


I spend the summer looking at new areas and assessing their potential but once season hits, I haunt three or four locations that I have confidence in. Hiking into a spot five or six times in a season takes confidence but if it's a good spot, sheep will show up eventually. I also find that rams will change their prefered range through the season and good October spots may be devoid of sheep in September and great early season spots may be dead in October. My personal key to success is targeting the high percentage spots at the appropriate time of the season. I'm not a great sheep hunter, I'm just determined and truthfully believe that if you spend enough time is low pressured sheep country that you'll kill a ram. Hard work and determination are the only sheep hunting attributes that I can claim.

[nube]

Like I said sheephunter I am giving you my version. Stop being the dick you usually are and stop trying to pick a fight with me. You say you have passed up rams before and you think you are a sheep guru. I can B.S. Yup you have spent your time out there and have probably seen a few. I finaly found a a picture of your last ram from last season. Nice ram but if you have past up others they really must not have been that great. How many have you killed? You sure had a lot of help from Colin up in wilmore with Kim's ram. It took a lot of shells and help from what I hear. Good thing you didn't have one of those single shot rifles of yours then the rams would have run away.
:wave:
Keep writing the stories sheep guru. Maybe some day I will know as much as you. I guess I will stop giving out my thoughts to help some of these guys and listen to you on how we should kill these things other than have a buddy that draws a tag for the November gimmee sheep hunts that you may have been on. I guess you counted those as part of the kills you have been on in the past eh!!!
Good luck guys.

Frans, I have appreciated you posts in the past. Keep it up. If I could help you out I would. I have helped a few guys over the years and even offered to take a guy last year that is on here that I don't even know. Maybe one day he might take me up on the offer and we can get some horn on the ground.

[Chet]

I'm still not sure there are a lot of guys killing multiple small rams. We have one on this site and there are a lot of serious sheep hunters on here. I think it's more a case of a lot of sheep hunters taking a ram or two. You can't blame a first-time sheep hunter for killing the first legal ram he sees and there are a lot that do that each year but I just don't see there being a lot of people that have already killed rams shooting squeekers. I could be wrong but I just don't think stopping a handful of guys from hunting for a year or two would make any difference at all to sheep populations.

I agree. Of all the sheep hunters I know that have killed Bighorns in Alberta, none of them have killed a "barely legal" ram after their first. I don't think that it is a very common occurance. One of the best sheep hunters I know has hunted Alberta Bighorns for 40+ years and never shot one. He has taught me a lot and passed up more legal rams than most people will ever see and helped many people shoot a ram. His Dad shot an enormous ram when he was a kid and he was determined to shoot one similar but never had a chance.

As far as the age thing is concerned, I am very happy that we don't have a minimum harvest age in Alberta on Bighorns. It can be really, really hard to tell, even when you are holding the horns in your hands. When you look at all the mistakes made in this province with the 4/5 curl rule I think it is obvious that an age rule would only further complicate things. I recently measured a Desert Bighorn and it was impossible to tell the age. I suspect that Desert rams are often more difficult to age due to the less drastic climate changes between growing seasons than our Bighorns are exposed too but still, Bighorns can be very tricky to age. If you have 3 experienced sheep hunters that can't agree on a ram's age when they are holding it their hands, how can you expect a 14 year old kid that just passed his hunter training to get it right while filled with adrenaline looking through a spotting scope at 300 yds?

[sheephunter]

Like I said sheephunter I am giving you my version. Stop being the dick you usually are and stop trying to pick a fight with me. You say you have passed up rams before and you think you are a sheep guru. I can B.S. Yup you have spent your time out there and have probably seen a few. I finaly found a a picture of your last ram from last season. Nice ram but if you have past up others they really must not have been that great. How many have you killed? You sure had a lot of help from Colin Dickson up in wilmore with Kim's ram. It took a lot of shells and help from what I hear. Good thing you didn't have one of those single shot rifles of yours then the rams would have run away.

Keep writing the stories sheep guru. Maybe some day I will know as much as you. I guess I will stop giving out my thoughts to help some of these guys and listen to you on how we should kill these things other than have a buddy that draws a tag for the November gimmee sheep hunts that you may have been on. I guess you counted those as part of the kills you have been on in the past eh!!!
Good luck guys.


LOL, nube I haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Kim never killed a ram in the Willmore. She took a long shot at one and missed it....end of story. No multiple shots. Colin, Dave and Greg are great people and it was a pleasure to run into them in the Willmore but not sure what help they offered other than being greatb people to share a mountain valley with. We road in by ourselves to a location suggested by a friend and we scouted ourselves and found some rams that Colin had also found. One of the members of Colin's group wanted one of the two rams in the group that was legal and Kim wanted the other. Greg graciously offered Kim the first shot and she hit low...that was her only shot. Greg shot second and got his ram. They did offer us some apples one day which were greatly apprecited and we shared some time in their camp and shared hunting stories which was very enjoyable. I know my memory isn't what it used to be but that's the way I remember things.

Kim ended up killing her ram in K-Country the following year with one well-placed shot although your version of the story does have a lot more drama and excitement. I'd suggest you call Colin and get the real story. He is a true gentleman and I'm sure he has no reason to say anything else. I can give you Greg and Dave's numbers if you like as well.

I've killed three bighorns and a Stone and none of them are great trophies but they all have great memories and the rams I killed were more a matter of circumstance than score. My first ram was 23 years ago and it was on a tough backpack hunt in K-Country. It's a beautiful ram that scored 176 but it could just as easily have scored 156 as I would have taken the first ram I saw. After that, I waited 18 years to kill my second bighorn. I passed several rams during these years and accompanied several people on their successful hunts but just never saw a ram that I needed to kill. Then one day I decided I wanted to hunt sheep with a muzzleloader and while hunting with a buddy and his son, got the opportunity and took a decent 36" ram. The excitement from my buddy's son was as much the reason for shooting it as using the muzzleloader. Then over the next few years I've had the great pleasure of passing on several more rams and sharing several successful hunts with friends including a hunter host hunt in the Willmore with a buddy from the Yukon. Bazil Leonard and Jim Babala were a wealth of info and help on that hunt. And then last year, I came back from an unsuccessful hunt in the Yukon with my tail between my legs and Vanessa suggested we head into a favourite basin and we spotted a decent ram and I shot him. I haven't scored him but he goes 16" on the base and is a bit over 36". Not a monster by any means but it was a great hunt shared with a great companion and that's what I remember most.

I hope that clears up a few of your misconceptions. Thanks for letting me clarify the story of meeting Colin as well. It's funny how when gossip is spread that it takes on a life of its own. As for being a sheep guru, I wish. My only attributes are hard work and determination. Basically I'm too stupid to quit. I've never shot three rams on two-day hunts and I've never walked into a basin that seven guys had been hunting for two days and killed a ram. My rams have been a result of hard work and good old blind luck.

Will I shoot another ram? Possibly. It really depends on the circumstances. I find as I get older that the numbers on the tape mean less and less each year and it's all about the experience surrounding the hunt. I'll likely pass up some more pathetic rams and who knows, I may even shoot one. My goal right now is an archery sheep and hopefully the draw goods smile on me soon. Well, that and A Dall. Okay, I could talk sheep hunting all day but back to work.

[nube]

I could talk sheep hunting all day but back to work.
Good Idea before we all start to pull out the ruler and start measureing. I apreaciate your side of the story and in the end it does not matter. It seems like stories are imbelished by even those that were there.

I think I will hide out from this thread and further talk. Good luck to all of those sheep hunters out there. Now I think I need to go for a nap. I'm too growchy:lol::zzz:

[sheephunter]

I apreaciate your side of the story and in the end it does not matter. It seems like stories are imbelished by even those that were there.


Actually it does matter nube. Spreading malicious lies like that on a messageboard really serves no purpose but thanks for letting me clear it up. Hopefully you will set whoever told it to you straight. Stories like that can attract the attention of F&W and I'm sure Kim doesn't need to be answering question as a result of lies on a messageboard.

[hal53]

Classic example of , I believe it was Warren Page (cat may remember the correct author) pointed out the 5 stages of a hunting career...can't remember them exactly, but stage one was kill anything legal...following thru' trophy hunting etc. until stage 5 was enjoying the experience, the kill was definitely second or even further down the list. We all go thru' it...just at a differnt pace. Just my thoughts...

[209x50]

What's the stage where you'd rather watch your son's do the gutting and skinnin? Cause I think I'm there?

[hal53]

What's the stage where you'd rather watch your son's do the gutting and skinnin? Cause I think I'm there?
:lol::lol::lol::lol:think it's stage 4 (once we get smart)...I'm there too, but it's my daughter...thanks for the laugh.....
Hal

[TangoKilo]

This is one of the best threads in a long time.
Great information being shared by some very experianced people.
Lets keep this one on track.

[hal53]

This is one of the best threads in a long time.
Great information being shared by some very experianced people.
Lets keep this one on track.
sorry, thought my post was indicative of some of the bickering on here...just trying to justify why some people hunt for different reasons...hope this post doesn't "sidetrack" it any further

[sheephunter]

sorry, thought my post was indicative of some of the bickering on here...just trying to justify why some people hunt for different reasons...hope this post doesn't "sidetrack" it any further

Think you're okay hal...pretty sure he was talking about the little forray that nube and I took into uncharted waters. Your point about the stages of hunting are well taken. I hate to say I'm in stage 5 though as that would mean I'm old! Just not as old as 209...:D

It's getting harder every year to keep up with these kids in the hills...ugh, back to the treadmill.

[hal53]

Hear ya, but stage 5 is way more fun now than the other stages were...looking back, plus my daughter hunting alongside me , is more fun than anything, hope I can still hit the mountains when my 4 yr. old Grandson is ready...would love that...BTW...methinks me and cat may be "older" than 209...lol

[shedcrazy]

Always good to talk sheep and good thread (minus name calling and/or rumours)...I too am one of the guys that has not filled a sheep tag but spend some time in the mountains. Not sure what I am looking for but I am sure I will show you photos this fall!!!:lol:

[LongDraw]

Even within the bickering there are some great pointers here. Guys that have killed multiple rams are doing something different, little arguement with this. I think once you kill a ram and are on a couple of successful hunts with friends it gives you the confidence that what you are doing is correct lending itself to further success. If you have not killed a ram and are doing all the right things in the right places it is harder to stay on task because there is the seed of doubt there that you are doing something wrong. Once you taste success it gives you more fortitude to tough it through the dry spells, and uneventful seasons.

Too many new sheep hunters put way too much weight into what gear, what gun, what caliber, what boots, but fail at the important stuff. Knowing how to glass, knowing where to glass, and how long to glass is the most important part of sheep hunting IMO. It goes without saying that you need some quality gear, but so many obsess about small gear details, but think it is a waste of money to spend 2k on binoculars, or don't carry a spotting scope, afraid to leave a hiking trail, or won't make a move on a ram later in the day because they are afraid to hike out in the dark, or spend an evening on the mountain.

As far as where to hunt there are not many secrets anymore, no different than any other species you choose to hunt. The difference is being able to stick it out until the 12th hour and not just being out there to kill a ram, but you have to love hiking in the mountains off the beaten trail and you will have success.

[209x50]

Hear ya, but stage 5 is way more fun now than the other stages were...looking back, plus my daughter hunting alongside me , is more fun than anything, hope I can still hit the mountains when my 4 yr. old Grandson is ready...would love that...BTW...methinks me and cat may be "older" than 209...lol
To hear sheep talk you'd never believe there was only something like 12 days difference in our score cards! But I will confess to enjoying the maturity and wisdom that comes with that extra life experience... LOL

[209x50]

Too many new sheep hunters put way too much weight into what gear, what gun, what caliber, what boots, but fail at the important stuff. Knowing how to glass, knowing where to glass, and how long to glass is the most important part of sheep hunting IMO.



Now that quote was worth the price of addmission, a lot of wisdom there.

[209x50]

Hear ya, but stage 5 is way more fun now than the other stages were...looking back,

Dunno, I had me some hellacious adventures right through stages 1 to 3... don't think I'm tough enough to be that stupid anymore. :(

[TangoKilo]

Hal53
Sorry you took offence, my comments were not directed specifically at you.

I am learning quite a bit from everyone on this thread, and am just hoping that things do not digress as is sometimes the case.

Having said that, I'm impressed with the professionalism shown by everyone.

Lets get back to the sheep!

[hal53]

Now that quote was worth the price of addmission, a lot of wisdom there.
exactly!!!!..years ago...young and stupid riding out of a valley came upon an "oldtimer" (he was probably younger than I am now)...he was glassing the opposite range over his saddle horse....we said we'd been up there the day before...no sheep....he looked at us and asked "why would you climb there if there ain't any sheep????....find 'em first!!!

[Rockymtnx]

Is it bad too say I might get slightly aroused by sheep.....? ;)

[sheephunter]

Getting back on topic, one of the things that really stuck with me when I read Geist's book, "Mountain Sheep" was that rams will be in the same place year after year on the same days. While obviously hunting pressure and other factors can change that but what I took away from reading that was that rams are creatures of habit and those habits are passed along from generation to generation. If you see rams in a basin in mid September, you can likely count on that band being back the next year in mid September. This is what gives me the confidence to keep hitting the same place day after day and as a general rule of thumb, it's been productive. Obviously there are lots of factors that can change this movement but I know where we will be in mid September this year.........Vanessa and I killed our two rams 364 days apart in the same basin. I think Geist might be on the right track.

[redgreen]

This is certainly an excellent thread!! I just wanted to add a blurb on sheep management. I was suprised to see in the draw book there are still lots of WMU's with ewe draws. In the ASRD input meeting in Sundre the Biologist inidicated that after the sheep count, sheep poulations are down and especially in the more mature rams 8 years plus. I just wonder the wisdom of continuing with ewe draws? Also both cats and wolves have had in my opinion way more impact on sheep populations than hunting.

[sheephunter]

I had a biologist explain it to me that a ewe harvest actually increases ram population, at least according to a study they did on Ram Mountain. The reason being that winter range is quite limited and by keeping numbers low, it allows the rams the opportunity at more high quality feed. It does seem at bit counter productive at first look but after watching the presentation by this biologist, it made sense and he had the science to back it up. Since then, I've drawn a ewe tag at every opportunity.

[Duk Dog]

This is one of the best threads in a long time.
Great information being shared by some very experianced people.
Lets keep this one on track.

x 2 great thread, lots of info, much to learn. I'm about 1/2 way through "Mountain Sheep and Man in the Northern Wilds" by Val Geist, with "Mountain Sheep" likely up next in my book pile.

[redgreen]

I had a biologist explain it to me that a ewe harvest actually increases ram population, at least according to a study they did on Ram Mountain. The reason being that winter range is quite limited and by keeping numbers low, it allows the rams the opportunity at more high quality feed. It does seem at bit counter productive at first look but after watching the presentation by this biologist, it made sense and he had the science to back it up. Since then, I've drawn a ewe tag at every opportunity.

I am now a bit confused then...I sure don't see any shortage of quality sheep Winter range in the areas I go to but do notice a decrease in sheep which I believe is a predator problem and that's why I think ewe draws at least in some WMU's should be closely looked at. I didn't know they had a ewe draw in the Ram mountain WMU, but were actually moving sheep there from Cadomin which is an interesting project if the cats would leave them alone. Sheep, do you think more should be done with the predators (ie. issuing a cougar tag for sheep season)? As you can guess this predator problem is certainly a burr under my saddle!!

[Duk Dog]

Too many new sheep hunters put way too much weight into what gear, what gun, what caliber, what boots, but fail at the important stuff. Knowing how to glass, knowing where to glass, and how long to glass is the most important part of sheep hunting IMO.

Dumb question but beyond trial and error with glassing are there any rules of thumb or advice with this in order to be more effective/efficient using your optics?

[sheepguide]

The cats are a real problem with our sheep populations. Two friends of mine run the dogs they used to collar the cats in the Clearwater and Ram areas and the one cat was monitered killing three 5 1/2 year old rams in a span of a couple weeks and as far as ram mountain goes there was a big male that was killing sheep there but heard that he may have been killed. Im game for the sheep picture thread and if it hasnt started when i get back to work tomorrow i'll start one with some of my pics. And yes sheephunter Babala's are the best men in the buisness to learn from and I am glad to have met and talked to Randy as you have with Jim they are true LEGENDS in the sheep hunting community!

[sheepguide]

wat works good for me DuK is to run grids with my spotting scope on areas that look good or have been know to hold sheep. Good quality optics are a must as they are easier on your eyes which leads to more time spent glassing.

[whitetailsheds]

Dumb question but beyond trial and error with glassing are there any rules of thumb or advice with this in order to be more effective/efficient using your optics?

Hey DD, even with the best glass, critters can be missed.
I'm going to refer back to the patience thing. Just because you may not see something the first time in an area does not mean it isn't there. A ram bedded may stand up and turn around in his bed, even changing cloud conditions will alter light and a set of horns (or a white ass) will stand out better. Or a ram that just walks over a ridge or comes from a low spot will appear.
Just wait around, especially if you've gained elevation and have a good vantage point.
This was one of my earlier downfalls, I couldn't sit for any longer than 10 minutes. I know of sheep hunters that will gain high points in ram country and stay up there all day till something is spotted.
Use the binos to scan (easier on the eyes). And pick apart stuff that catches your eye. Then use the spotter to really look into things further.
This is where the better glass (or best glass one can afford) will help the sheep hunter.
I think just spending time out with those optics anywhere will help train the eye to scrutinize detail. And obviously, more time looking over rocks, ridges, crags, and even open grassy slopes will improve the eye for sheep hunting.
One trick I was told early on was to do the easy glassing first. And by that I mean the skyline stuff.
A ram silhouetting itself is huge. Just as you don't want to skyline yourself for fear of being spotted, some rams slip up and do it themselves. Check the skyline first, then start checking the hillsides a little slower, looking for the "rock" that looks outta place.

[whitetailsheds]

Here is a couple shots to show what can happen when you think there may only be one ram (or none) in an area. These photos were taken 1/2 hour apart, from the same spot, of the same hill.
What looks like a wide open hillside, is NOT. There was enough of a roll in the hill (center of photo or hill) to hide the other 2 stone rams. They did not come from anywhere else except the middle of that hill. Clicking on the photos enlarges them once.
Before:
http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc97/whitetailsheds/?action=view&current=057_57.jpg
1/2 hr later:
http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc97/whitetailsheds/?action=view&current=066_66.jpg
Later as they left the grassy slope:
http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc97/whitetailsheds/?action=view&current=067_67.jpg
Zoomed in on the one ram with the Swarovski spotter:
http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc97/whitetailsheds/?action=view&current=032_32_00.jpg

[Loper]

Should have zoomed in a little more so the fence didn't show up in the picture?

[depopulator]

Getting back on topic, one of the things that really stuck with me when I read Geist's book, "Mountain Sheep" was that rams will be in the same place year after year on the same days. Vanessa and I killed our two rams 364 days apart in the same basin. I think Geist might be on the right track.

It's a worthwhile read and I too agree about rams in the same place and same time of year. I took my 2005 (first) and 2007 (notably bigger and older than my first;)) rams exactly 2 years and 2 days and 500 yards apart, on the same slope, right above camp. Guess when and where I'll be this year ?

[shooter]

Getting back on topic, one of the things that really stuck with me when I read Geist's book, "Mountain Sheep" was that rams will be in the same place year after year on the same days. While obviously hunting pressure and other factors can change that but what I took away from reading that was that rams are creatures of habit and those habits are passed along from generation to generation. If you see rams in a basin in mid September, you can likely count on that band being back the next year in mid September. This is what gives me the confidence to keep hitting the same place day after day and as a general rule of thumb, it's been productive. Obviously there are lots of factors that can change this movement but I know where we will be in mid September this year.........Vanessa and I killed our two rams 364 days apart in the same basin. I think Geist might be on the right track.

A video that I have by Eastmans which is more of a documentry tells the same thing. Also have the video footage to back it up over a three year periode which was really something. Now I just need to start finding some sheep to chart that are not part of a park!! LOL

[Frans]

I have to admit, the rams that were just inside the park in 2007, were there again in 2008, both during the last days of the season. Now I wish I'd have had a better scope, so I could have better assessed those rams I saw across the valley in the last week of the season last year. They were with a huge group of ewes though.. ;-)

Where I shot my first ram I've not seen sheep since, but a lot of sign of human activity. A fire had been lit on one of the main viewing spots in the area, for pete's sake! Came across a packer with a dozen horses, and one morning there were no less than 6 trucks parked at the trail head. Even though sheep may be animals of habit, there seem to be limits!

Frans (didn't hit the treadmill, but did spend 45 minutes climbing up and down the Big Hill!)

[ovis40]

Are we all getting old or are we just getting lazy. Am I hearing guys here saying that they are washed up. When I was a pup and started guiding there was a guy that started guiding the same time. Fred just happened to be SIXTY years old at the start of his guiding career. I had the good fortune to do lots of hunts with Fred. He would say "I have only two gears slow and slower". That didn't say much for me becuase I spent most of my time looking at the Vibram soles of his boots! I remember when Fred was matched up with a marathon runner from Denver. Man they were both pizzed. Fred couldn't believe that he should be guiding this guy. The hunter couldn't believe this old man was his guide!! Well the rest of us guides couldn't see a problem and I told my hunter to make sure he asked the marathon man what he thought after the hunt. So after the hunt all of the gudes were in the guides shack to have a BS session on the hunt. The first question was for Fred. How was the marathon man? To which Fred said "man on the flat that guy sure could go, BUT when I got him in the rocks I had him!"
I think it was TEN years that Fred guided backpack hunts in the NWT!!! So when I start to feel lazy I think of my good friend FRED and get my ass in gear!! I sure hope that I can be doing that at the age of Seventy, even if I have to crawl the last 100 yards to a sheep bed to have a nap in the sun......man that would be a good hunt

[Ramblinman]

Ovis ... That is a great post! I too know of a couple of hardcore sheep hunters who are above 60 and can still beat out most of the younger guys! One of these older sheep hunters said he just never takes a year off! Whats more interesting is that they seem to do it with only a bottle of water and a couple of snickers bars in their pocket! I think that speaks to their true intestinal fortitude.

[sheephunter]

I am now a bit confused then...I sure don't see any shortage of quality sheep Winter range in the areas I go to but do notice a decrease in sheep which I believe is a predator problem and that's why I think ewe draws at least in some WMU's should be closely looked at. I didn't know they had a ewe draw in the Ram mountain WMU, but were actually moving sheep there from Cadomin which is an interesting project if the cats would leave them alone. Sheep, do you think more should be done with the predators (ie. issuing a cougar tag for sheep season)? As you can guess this predator problem is certainly a burr under my saddle!!

Ya, I'm just going on what the biologist told me. I don't know enough about range assessment to determine its carrying capicity so you sure could be right that there's plenty. I'm not sure about predators either. Certainly cougars are specialized feeders and some do become specialized on sheep but do we have too many? Again, I don't really have the background to form an opinion on that. No doubt predators have to be managed and I trust the F&W biologists are doing that to the best of their ability with the data they have.

The study on Ram Mountain was an old one.....at least ten years ago so they could be managing it differently now. I don't think they were actually killing the ewes but trapping them and removing them to simulate a ewe harvest. The data they collected was pretty cool and demonstrated to me at least how things are not always as they appear at first glance. After seeing it and talking with Jon, I know I'll shoot a ewe at every opportunity. It's a great hunt, they are great eating and from the science I've seen, it benefits sheep populations and increases mature ram numbers.

[sheephunter]

I don't have the entire Ram Mountain Study, well I do but can't seem to find it but this quote from Jon and Marco is from a backgrounder on the study. It's what I remember most from the study.

We have learned a lot from the Ram Mountain sheep. Many aspects of bighorn management in Alberta
and elsewhere have been shaped by the results of this study. We now know that healthy, low-density
sheep population can sustain harvests of over 10% of adult ewes when natural predation is low.
As density increased, the population showed many signs of increased competition for resources,
including late age of primiparity, late births and increased lamb mortality. Ram body and horn growth
were affected by population density much more than ewe growth. When resources are scarce, young
ewes delay their first reproduction and concentrate on body growth, while rams don’t have the same
flexibility in allocating resources to either growth or reproduction. As a result, at high density sexual
dimorphism is reduced, and many rams never reach “legal” horn size.

[Big Daddy Morton]

heres a cool video i saw today...follow the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPdLtRexwqw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Ebowsite%2Ecom%2FTF%2Fbg forums%2Fthread%2Ecfm%3Fthreadid%3D367392%26messag es%3D7%26forum%3D12&feature=player_embedded

[7MM Mike]

Sheep,
I have a copy of return of Royalty. It draws similar conclusions on populaton density vs. horn growth and goes into the different phenotypes based on pop density and grazing/nutrient availability - and is a pretty good read in general (lots of pictures!!!!).
Mike

[BrownBear416]

Great thread everyone,lots of knowledge here....

I have sheep fever but am one of the elite that have tagged many of these elusive beasts...

Took me all of one day to bag this one :)

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s27/BrownBear416/sheep.jpg

[redgreen]

I don't have the entire Ram Mountain Study, well I do but can't seem to find it but this quote from Jon and Marco is from a backgrounder on the study. It's what I remember most from the study.

I guess one of the key points in there hinges on "natural predation". The cat and wolf populations are even admittedly by ASRD in documents "at an all time high". As I said before in the local ASRD input meeting, the Biologist said sheep populations are definately down. Just my opinion but killing the ewes with a decline in the population just doesn't make sense. The study done may have been relevant at the time and accurate but I don't think it applies today and I am sure most will agree things have changed in ten years. I don't apply for a ewe draw because I don't believe there should be one. I guess it gives you guys a better chance..LOL.

[sheephunter]

There is no doubt that things change but I don't see how the relevancy of the study changes. The fact that horn growth is tied to population density is a constant. I would trust that the number of tags changes in proportion to the population. I know I've been involved for a number of years in the sheep counts in K-Country and they are conducted to not only study population dynamics but to set quotas. You are likely right that predators are at a high right now and killing more sheep. I would trust the biologists would take that into account and reduce the number of ewe tags in areas where populations are affected. Ewe hunting is definitely not for everyone but I think science has proven that it is beneficial to the heard and horn growth on rams when the population warrants it. If ewe numbers slip below carrying capacity of the winter range, I would trust that biologists would stop the hunt until populations increase. I see hunting ewes as one of the most critical things that hunters can do to aid game managers in ensuring healthy populations and trophy quality. I respect the fact you don't hunt them and I really respect the fact that you don't draw a tag with intention of not using it. I've heard of people doing that and it can really mess up what game managers are attempting to do.

[huntinstuff]

Moose rule...:evilgrin: