Knife sharpening whetstone + pro advice needed

[Fishwhere]

Hey guys,

Im looking for a pretty in depth look at which stone i should get for my knives. In my kitchen i have Wusthof ikon knives and the steel is x50crmov15 & rockwell hardness of 58 - that is what i will use the majority of the time on this stone. But i would also like to be able to touch up my custom filleting knives. Their steel is a cpms35vn and rockwell hardness of 58.

Ideally i would use a double sided stone so that i only have to get one. I was thinking in the range of a 400ish & 1000-2000 finish. I have seen some wusthof stones, one of which is a 1000 & 3000 but was a little hesitant because i think potentially more of a finishing stone - but i do baby my knives, they dont get beat up very badly....

i do not know much at all regarding if these stones are the best for my knives - or at least good enough without getting crazy.

I also have some japanese stones of 1000 and 4000 lobster brand. However they have a very different feel to them - and from what i have heard they are much softer and have tried sharpening my non japanese knives to no great result. They work well on my japanese knives.

Any help would be very appreciated!

[Nikanit]

Try the Lansky sharpening system, my hubs uses one and gets any knife so sharp it shaves hair off your arm

[Marty S]

I use a good ole, wholesome Canadian Tire wet wheel! I think it only goes 140 rpm so never burn a blade, uses water obviously. I hold the knife relatively flat on the stone, 15 or 18 degrees or whatever, turning blade from side to side to keep things even and grind until the edge of the blade gets the tinfoil edge, or feathers as is proper terminology, then take the feather off with a steel and you have a razor sharp edge every time, just takes time but way faster than a Lansky.

I skin mountains of coyotes, am sharpening all the time. Would rather have an old fashioned HD wetsone with serious motor but haven't crossed that bridge yet.

[Etownpaul]

I’ve got a 1000/3000 combo stone from Lee Valley. I’ve had it about 5 years now and no complaints.

I baby my knives as well and use a honing steel almost daily so really all I’m looking to do is re finish the edge slightly. If I were in a restaurant chopping 10 hrs a day I’d probably want a more substantial set of stones, but for the 5-10 mins a day I use my knives, the one combo stone is just fine.

Since I switched to an end grain maple cutting board from cheap plastic ones, I’ve noticed better edge retention too.

[Coiloil37]

This stone combo and some diamond stropping paste is all I use. I’m always playing with steels that need diamond to cut their carbides but these will cut all of your steels very fast and last a long time.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190105/0f3cc1f41efbb26db5d1bb497cf6451f.jpg

[Don Andersen]

I use Lee Valley water stones.

I use water stones for both our kitchen knives, working knives and planes blades I use for building bamboo rods.

I found the kitchen knives, which are a miss mash of brands, work best at 1000 grit for meat and vegetable preparation.

My working knives I carry are sharpened with 1000 and the edge is touched up slightly on a 4000 stone.

The plane blades are sharpened to shaving sharp with a 4000 stone. I have a 8000 stone and have never found it was needed.

Don

[Fishwhere]

Thanks a ton for the responses so far. Another question to add to the mix - for the more serious sharpening guys - do you pay a lot of attention to the stone material vs the steel of the knife material?

For example I know the diamands are nice, but ive also heard they are too “hard” of a stone that takes off too much steel.

And i have a smooth honing steel that has really been nice paired with a strap with polish. I dont like the sharpening rods. However i do see the honing rods with vertical little lines on them - i am assuming those are for knives that have more wear and tear on them.

Thanks!!!

[Okotok]

There are many effective ways to sharpen. Once you get used to one way, it's easy. I have Waterstones, diamond plates and rods, Veritas power system, wet and dry wheels for my grinder. I do a lot of woodworking with handtools so also do a lot of sharpening. For knives, I use a 1" x 42" Kalamazoo belt sander with various belt grits. Very quick and effective.

[PlayDoh]

1000 (Naka-to) and 3000 or 4000 (Shiage-to) King or Naniwa Jap stones. Finish with a leather strop.
I haven’t met an edge I couldn’t razor with those 2 stones. There are high quality oil stones that work just as well, it’s more of a matter of preference.
I have a good library of educational e-books and video that I can share with you. Shoot me a PM and I’ll figure out how to get it to you. I see if I can upload them to google drive.
You can try to get a natural Jap whetstone but there big bucks and getting harder to find.
An important thing is to flatten your whetstone. I use sandblast medium from CT on a piece of tempered glass. Add water and rub the stone face till it sticks letting you know it’s flat.
Truth be told your technique is the most important factor. You can watch Murray Carter sharpen a dull blade with a cinder block and newspaper, then shave with it.

With a Jap whetstone you don’t want a slurry. Get a squirt or spray bottle and flush away the debris often. The slurry does the sharpening, is wrong, yet common belief.

[Coiloil37]

Diamond stones won’t remove more material unless you choose to. Your still sharpening by hand. They do cut faster. The other thing they do is actually cut the carbides in your s35v steel. To cut carbides you need diamond or cbn. Most sharpening systems will shape the steel matrix but are softer then the carbides in your steel and will not cut them. From what I’ve read Shapton glass stones (ceramic) will also cut carbides but I’ve got no experience with them. In the past I had a set of naniwa super stones but they couldn’t handle the steels my knives are made from so they got sold.
There’s a big difference between sharpening the steels most guys work with and a high carbide steel. You can get a high carbide steel sharp on the wrong stone with good technique but it’s a pale imitation to how sharp it would be if you had actually cut the carbides while sharpening it. The amount of “bite” your not getting with the wrongs sharpening system is significant.

[PlayDoh]

I have to disagree, a Super-Steel Carbide is no magic metal.
Here’s the issue. Harder metals take more work to shape. If you could sharpen an edge with 2 strokes it would be better than one that takes 50. Only because your ability to make 50 near perfect strokes is far less than 2.
Diamond stones cut faster, which is why it’s easier to achieve better results. High carbon steel is still steel, just with stronger molecular bonds. Take a grinder to the back of your Super Steel blade and see if only a diamond will cut it.
I do agree that a diamond stone is a better choice for high carbon steel but only for practical purposes. Spending twice as long to cut an edge is pointless. Unless your a purist and want the satisfaction of achieving the same results with a traditional stone.

I’m not trying to pretend I’m a metallurgist, or master sword-smith, but the basic principles of steel are not as mysterious as some claim it to be.

[calgarychef]

Normally I’d suggest a 750x1000 stone, I have a 1000x3000 but it’s not necessary really. Your knives are HARD and they’ll take a long time whittling away on a fine stone. I’d be looking at a quality diamond stone if I was you.
One thing with stones, make sure your knife is clean before sharpening, clogging the pores with fat and yesterday’s sandwich is a sure way to bugger them up.

[PlayDoh]

Thanks a ton for the responses so far. Another question to add to the mix - for the more serious sharpening guys - do you pay a lot of attention to the stone material vs the steel of the knife material?



For example I know the diamands are nice, but ive also heard they are too “hard” of a stone that takes off too much steel.



And i have a smooth honing steel that has really been nice paired with a strap with polish. I dont like the sharpening rods. However i do see the honing rods with vertical little lines on them - i am assuming those are for knives that have more wear and tear on them.



Thanks!!!



There are sharpening rods and honing rods. Sharpening rods are ceramic and can sharpen a high carbide blade very well, yet no better than a flat stone of the same material.
A honing rod is used to straighten an edge of a blade after it’s been used. Sharpen a blade then use it, and look at it under magnification and you’ll see the edge rolls to either side. A honing rod just straightens these rolls. It takes only a few strokes and its job is done. Always hone with strokes away from the edge.
A strop can do the same if the rolls aren’t severe, and it will also polish the edge.

Most of us who’ve become obsessed with sharpening eventually come to realize there are in fact few uses for a razor edged knife. I’m not talking sharp, but the next step where it’s as sharp as possible. Skinning and filet knives are those for me.

There’s nothing wrong with every knife being razor sharp, but it’s not very practical, and in the end not worth the time and effort. I do most of my sharpening with a Work-Sharp budget-portable belt sander. Then I quickly put the final edge with a Jap stone and strop. I can shave with any of those knives, and they will last for a couple months in the kitchen.

I wouldn’t dream of putting my hunting knives or fillet knives in the worksharp unless they were beat up. Well, I shouldn’t be that dramatic about it, but those knives are never beat up and skinning knives are so curved they take special attention.

An edge with teeth will cut better than a razor for what we want to cut most of the time. An even 20° semi or un-polishes edge is all one really needs for most knives. Yet that’s not the point of your post I suppose. I’m just presuming your still in that obsessed stage trying to split atoms, lol.

[PlayDoh]

Normally I’d suggest a 750x1000 stone, I have a 1000x3000 but it’s not necessary really. Your knives are HARD and they’ll take a long time whittling away on a fine stone. I’d be looking at a quality diamond stone if I was you.

One thing with stones, make sure your knife is clean before sharpening, clogging the pores with fat and yesterday’s sandwich is a sure way to bugger them up.



Very true. Also cleaning the stone of slurry often is important. This is why I much prefer whetstones vs oil stones. All you need is water to clear a whetstone, and a quick scrub or flattening puts it back to pure stone.
An oil stone is a pain to clear and clean, and an oily mess. Mostly for a lower grit oil stone, as a honing oil stone isn’t difficult.
A clogged stone cuts in one spot more than another, which ruins your work.

[PlayDoh]

Have a look at this system. I’ve wanted one for years.

https://www.edgeproinc.com

[Coiloil37]

I have to disagree, a Super-Steel Carbide is no magic metal.
Here’s the issue. Harder metals take more work to shape. If you could sharpen an edge with 2 strokes it would be better than one that takes 50. Only because your ability to make 50 near perfect strokes is far less than 2.
Diamond stones cut faster, which is why it’s easier to achieve better results. High carbon steel is still steel, just with stronger molecular bonds. Take a grinder to the back of your Super Steel blade and see if only a diamond will cut it.
I do agree that a diamond stone is a better choice for high carbon steel but only for practical purposes. Spending twice as long to cut an edge is pointless. Unless your a purist and want the satisfaction of achieving the same results with a traditional stone.

I’m not trying to pretend I’m a metallurgist, or master sword-smith, but the basic principles of steel are not as mysterious as some claim it to be.

Maybe you should do some research then before you respond next time. I’m not going to pick all the holes apart in your posts, I’ll leave it simple and stick to the meat and potatoes of how you missed the mark in regard to what I said.

The “carbides” in those steels can not be cut by most sharpening abrasives. I didn’t say the steel I said the carbides. You absolutely can shape or cut the steel matrix around the carbides but you won’t be cutting the carbides with most sharpening abrasives. Diamond and cbn will cut them and they’ll make short work of the steel matrix holding the carbides as well.
I’m not talking about sharpening daddies old strait razor, carbon steel knife or other “normal” tools. I’m discussing the carbide loaded steels that I like and it just so happens the OP’s s35v has some of those carbides. It’s nothing like S90v or S110v but it’ll certainly respond well to diamond.

We also aren’t taking about high carbon steel. Try and stay on point.

[Red Bullets]

There is a shave shop on Whyte Ave that might offer some classes on sharpening. For sure they could advise on which stone to use and why. They have knife and axe sharpening services too.

Kent of Inglewood. 108 str. & Whyte.

[Coiloil37]

Have a look at this system. I’ve wanted one for years.

https://www.edgeproinc.com

This system works very well if you need a jig. It’s in another league compared to kme or lansky. I had an edge pro 6-8 years ago before I perfected free hand sharpening. From memory it’s not the most practical way to sharpen a long kitchen or fillet knife. The arch of the stone would change the bevel on the edge if you didn’t section the blade.

Also, stropping on leather works but I prefer paper on anything flat and hard. Currently I strop on a piece of heavy paper on counter top. Apparently balsa wood works very well too but I’ve been very happy with a bit of diamond on a piece of paper so I haven’t tried balsa wood. That said, I don’t strop much. Maybe a couple passes after the knife comes off the stone. To many passes removes the teeth from the apex and I like an agressive edge.

Food for thought.

[Okotok]

There are sharpening rods and honing rods. Sharpening rods are ceramic and can sharpen a high carbide blade very well, yet no better than a flat stone of the same material.
A honing rod is used to straighten an edge of a blade after it’s been used. Sharpen a blade then use it, and look at it under magnification and you’ll see the edge rolls to either side. A honing rod just straightens these rolls. It takes only a few strokes and its job is done. Always hone with strokes away from the edge.
A strop can do the same if the rolls aren’t severe, and it will also polish the edge.

Most of us who’ve become obsessed with sharpening eventually come to realize there are in fact few uses for a razor edged knife. I’m not talking sharp, but the next step where it’s as sharp as possible. Skinning and filet knives are those for me.

There’s nothing wrong with every knife being razor sharp, but it’s not very practical, and in the end not worth the time and effort. I do most of my sharpening with a Work-Sharp budget-portable belt sander. Then I quickly put the final edge with a Jap stone and strop. I can shave with any of those knives, and they will last for a couple months in the kitchen.

I wouldn’t dream of putting my hunting knives or fillet knives in the worksharp unless they were beat up. Well, I shouldn’t be that dramatic about it, but those knives are never beat up and skinning knives are so curved they take special attention.

An edge with teeth will cut better than a razor for what we want to cut most of the time. An even 20° semi or un-polishes edge is all one really needs for most knives. Yet that’s not the point of your post I suppose. I’m just presuming your still in that obsessed stage trying to split atoms, lol.

Exactly! That's why a kitchen knife with a bit of tooth to it will slice tomatoes a lot better. We had a guy come and do a presentation on Japanese planes one time in our woodworking club. The Japanese apprenticeship component for sharpening was a year in duration. All hand held using Japanese water stones. One of the competitions they partook in was pulling a Japanese plane with a string along a board to see who could get the longest, thinnest shaving. I can gingerly test an edge using my thumb with the best of them. Only time I ever cut myself doing it was checking out one of his plane blades! Hunting knives don't need to be anywhere near that degree of sharp. Most don't have a $1000 super hard, laminated blade on them as well for obvious reasons.

[Don Andersen]

For those using carborundum or oil stones I was shown what is a very good way to keep them clean.
Rather than oil, a dab of hand cleaning cream like GoJo as a lubricant works very well. Flush the stone with water after use. I have stones of both type that appear new.
The JoGo has been used effectively to clean up very old oil stones full of oil/grease and chaff.

Regards,

Don

[PlayDoh]

Maybe you should do some research then before you respond next time. I’m not going to pick all the holes apart in your posts, I’ll leave it simple and stick to the meat and potatoes of how you missed the mark in regard to what I said.



The “carbides” in those steels can not be cut by most sharpening abrasives. I didn’t say the steel I said the carbides. You absolutely can shape or cut the steel matrix around the carbides but you won’t be cutting the carbides with most sharpening abrasives. Diamond and cbn will cut them and they’ll make short work of the steel matrix holding the carbides as well.

I’m not talking about sharpening daddies old strait razor, carbon steel knife or other “normal” tools. I’m discussing the carbide loaded steels that I like and it just so happens the OP’s s35v has some of those carbides. It’s nothing like S90v or S110v but it’ll certainly respond well to diamond.



We also aren’t taking about high carbon steel. Try and stay on point.



You don’t need to Cut a Vanadium, Chromium, Molybdenum or Niobium carbide. They are a few microns in size and don’t have to be cut to be removed.

I’m not arguing that using an Aluminum Oxide on a super steel is a good idea. My point is it’s not impossible as you seem to imply.

CRUCIBLE CPM[emoji2400] S35VN
Carbon 1.40%
Chromium 14.00%
Vanadium 3.0%
Molybdenum 2.0%
Niobium 0.50%


No need for the attitude, since this isn’t BladeForum or the like. Nor do I need a Phd in metallurgy to share my opinion. As I’m sure you posses yourself and not just sharing someone else’s technical knowledge right?

Maybe my sharpest knives are dull to you, but this isn’t a ****ing contest. If your interested in sharpening edges at that level, than this isn’t the place.

There’s plenty of websites and forums for the edge obsessed, yet IMO it’s not a large margin between a sharp and practical edge, and one obtained with a few thousand in sharpening gear.

[PlayDoh]

This system works very well if you need a jig. It’s in another league compared to kme or lansky. I had an edge pro 6-8 years ago before I perfected free hand sharpening. From memory it’s not the most practical way to sharpen a long kitchen or fillet knife. The arch of the stone would change the bevel on the edge if you didn’t section the blade.



Also, stropping on leather works but I prefer paper on anything flat and hard. Currently I strop on a piece of heavy paper on counter top. Apparently balsa wood works very well too but I’ve been very happy with a bit of diamond on a piece of paper so I haven’t tried balsa wood. That said, I don’t strop much. Maybe a couple passes after the knife comes off the stone. To many passes removes the teeth from the apex and I like an agressive edge.



Food for thought.


Ya I can’t imagine it or any jig of that type being practical. It takes a long time to get the muscle memory to free hand, and it’s always tempting to cheat, lol. I’d like one to mostly compare free hand to perfection.

I have a thick and stiff leather I like to use, yet I often use paper also. The theory is the leather bends, IIRC. Again at the atom splitting level.

My daughter cuts hair and I talked shop with an old guy who does her sharpening. These are the Japanese convexed shears that take mastery to sharpen. Or a $2000-$5000 machine. This was at the apex of my sharpening interest, pun intended.

I guess it’s a bit unnerving seeing someone sharpen dozens of knives for hours at a time. All with a zoned out look on their face. Or so my wife says, lol. I find it therapeutic almost.

[PlayDoh]

For those using carborundum or oil stones I was shown what is a very good way to keep them clean.

Rather than oil, a dab of hand cleaning cream like GoJo as a lubricant works very well. Flush the stone with water after use. I have stones of both type that appear new.

The JoGo has been used effectively to clean up very old oil stones full of oil/grease and chaff.



Regards,



Don



Very interesting, thanks for sharing

[RancheroMan]

Does anyone one here have a Tormek? I've been eyeing up the T-4 but the cost of entry is prohibitive. Are they worth it?

[thorne]

Cant brag enough about the DMT systems. Use that combined with a good Steel and strop. i can put a razor edge on anything in quick time and easily maintain i. Ya its pricy,but considering I bought my first DMT stone in 1992 and it still looks and works as if it was new says it all.

[graybeard]

There has been some interesting opinions on sharpening a knife and the methods used.

The opinions of Coiloil doesn't have to be on a Blade Forum...just like we have a lot of knowledgeable people on the gun, shooting, reloading, and dog training etc.

Some of my best conversations on knives, steel and sharpening have been with Coiloil.

Yes there are some knowledgeable people here on AO on this knife and sharpening topic I just haven't had the privilege of meeting them.

A lot of people are confused with waiting to have to sharpen a knife when it needs re-profiling; there is major difference. The new super-steels take a lot more to sharpen than the old Buck 110, but I am not here to try and convince you which one you should use?

Often the selection of a knife has nothing to do with the steel or the mechanics but more about the romance of it.
For example; if grandpa, dad, and uncle all carried the Buck 110 then you were not hunting unless one was on your hip or used an ol' stone block to sharpen it.

Back to point; I enjoy all the comments but I pay close attention when Coiloil speaks to knives just when others I respect speak to guns and training....IMHO.......

A sharpening system is all about what you want. You want the best system available to sharpen, then the field narrows. There is no quick down and dirty system. The best thing is to try a couple out if possible.

You may find the best system doesn't work best for you?

In the end you have to sharpen a lot of knives to get good.

It is perfect practice that makes perfect.....

Good luck....

[Fishwhere]

Thanks a lot for all the replies. I have been sharpening for around 10 years at least and changed styles, knives, stones, texhniques numerous times. Always looking for the next best thing. Like some kf the guys said regarding the knives only needing to get so sharp is true for sure - maybe i am chasing the golden apple a little too hard. I think the big thing is that i know my filletting knives can get insanely sharp, and ive never been able to get them back to what they were originally so that i can maintain that type of an edge as much as possible. I am going to stick to a whetstone freehand style for sure.

I will continue along my seatch route and use this help the best i can!

There is so much to know about the techniques, steel, stone, combinations, knowledge etc etc about sharpening its not even funny. Sometimes i get drained when i start looking at it again because it can be a very complicated thing if you let it go that way.

Thanks again guys,