Sleeping in an ice tent, how to safely heat

[C.Noble]

Like the title states, I would like to camp on ice in my tent. I have a big buddy heater, just not sure exactly how safe it would be to heat a tent this way. Suppose I could get a carbon monoxide detector. Any suggestions?

[HuyFishin]

some guys i know are fine doing this, make sure that u get good ventilation coming.

If i was you i would just buy a carbon monoxide detector that is battery operated and no wiring required.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Kidde-Code-One-Battery-Operated-Carbon-Monoxide-Detector-21025785/202756110

[mlee]

Get a 6" or so battery operated fan ....zip tie it in one roof flap so its blowing air out of the tent....put your heater on a table under the opposite roof vent (assuming your tent has two vents)....and get a CO detector.

[prosnowsk8er]

Co2 detector, and put a 3 or 4" 2ft pvc or abs pipe under the skirt to keep the are flow going.

[HuyFishin]

Co2 detector, and put a 3 or 4" 2ft pvc or abs pipe under the skirt to keep the are flow going.

wow the pvc pipes are a good idea. Since most people start shoveling all the edges seals and tight.

[JareS]

I just leave lots of vents open so there's a breeze, and sleep with my face a couple feet from the propane heater.

[vic1]

All above are very good points ( elevate heater few inches of the ice, circulation fans and venting is critical or you are going to have very cold night). One more thing that I like to have is piece of foam mat. It is very handy when you undressing for night sleep.

[PlayDoh]

One caveat is to put the CO detector up 3/4 of the wall height. Ceilings are ok in a house, but warm air at the ceiling can potentially keep the CO under it, which in a tent could be a real issue. I usually put mine half way up when just fishing.
Take that with a grain of salt, since I’m no expert.

[RavYak]

Big Buddy is fine, make sure flaps are open and should be good to go. A PVC tube at bottom near heater helps with air movement but isn't necessary.

CO monitor helps to play it safe. I have heard of one guy getting sick with a sunflower heater but even that is rare. No matter which heater you use make sure it is running properly, if it seems to be running poorly then try and adjust it or get new propane etc. CO is caused from incomplete combustion so if the heater isn't working properly that is when you can expect CO to build up.

CO is about the same density as air, if using a monitor I would put it at the level you are breathing at.

As for other things to think about for sleeping on the ice. Use cots and inflatable or foam pads. Being higher up will be warmer and the air under tent is cold so a pad makes a much bigger difference then using a warmer sleeping bag.

Foam pads for the ground between cots keep ice from melting and provide dry ground to stand etc without boots on. Most people use the child foam pads.

[PlayDoh]

“When considering where to place a carbon monoxide detector, keep in mind that although carbon monoxide is roughly the same weight as air (carbon monoxide’s specific gravity is 0.9657, as stated by the EPA; the National Resource Council lists the specific gravity of air as one), it may be contained in warm air coming from combustion appliances such as home heating equipment. If this is the case, carbon monoxide will rise with the warmer air.”
Detecting CO at bed level could result in a tent being 3/4s full of noxious air before alarming.
Personally I’d be leery of putting my life in the hands of a $60 detector, and a $150 heater that specifically states it’s not to be used inside.
Yes the conditions are rare, yet the consequence are very likely fatal. And every year people die ice fishing from CO. I’ve read of a CO detector study that found 30% of detectors were faulty right out of the box. I personally bought one that didn’t alarm when the test button is pushed, brand new. And keep in mind that test only tests the alarm noise, not its ability to detect CO.

Not trying to freak you out, but you will be asleep and the function of the heaters operation will be oblivious to you. Long story short, I would ensure that your getting enough fresh air, with the assumption the heater will fail and release CO. Then I would make the decision if that was warm enough I could sleep in.

I do remember someone posting on how to calculate the venting space. I think ‘Evil’ is a HVAC Pro and or knows enough to be one. I’m sure you could find a source online. I’ll take a look. I’d presume it’s BTU/H, contained space volume, and fresh air opening dimensions.

[PlayDoh]

https://digitalcommons.mtech.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1063&context=grad_rsch

Abstract
The environment for ice fishing is cold and ice fishermen who use ice huts or tents commonly use portable propane heaters to heat their shelters.
During the 2012/2013 ice fishing season, random fishermen were selected to be part of a research study. Upon arrival, the fishermen were evaluated for blood carbon monoxide concentrations (carboxyhemoglobin) and their pulse rate was recorded using a CO Oximeter. In addition, the air inside the fishermen shelters was evaluated for CO, oxygen and flammable gases with a MultiRAE plus 4 gas monitor.
While COHb was measureable in 40% of the subjects when they arrived at the fishing sites, within one hour of fishing in a structure heated with a propane heater, eight of 10 (80%) of subjects revealed measureable COHb concentrations. The air CO monitoring within the structures supported this hypothesis with mean CO concentrations ranging from 2 -22 ppm. In addition, the majority of subjects had increased pulse rates as their duration in the structures increased.
This research implies that the use of portable propane heaters in ice fishing structures may result in elevated air CO concentrations within the enclosures and increased fishermen blood carboxyhemoglobin levels. Additional research to further explore this potential public health problem is recommended.

[RavYak]

The air CO monitoring within the structures supported this hypothesis with mean CO concentrations ranging from 2 -22 ppm. In addition, the majority of subjects had increased pulse rates as their duration in the structures increased.
This research implies that the use of portable propane heaters in ice fishing structures may result in elevated air CO concentrations within the enclosures and increased fishermen blood carboxyhemoglobin levels. Additional research to further explore this potential public health problem is recommended.

Those concentrations are not that high and wouldn't set off most CO monitors(such as one posted earlier which alarms at 30 ppm).

https://www.detectcarbonmonoxide.com/co-health-risks/

Reason I would place CO monitor lower and not at top of tent is because as this study shows CO is produced and if you put the monitor up high in the hot air accumulating at top of the tent then you will get more false alarms then necessary and increase chances in not believing the alarm is working properly etc.

It seems a couple anglers or so die each year due to CO poisoning but that is a very small number compared to the amount of hours spent by anglers in these tents and if I had to guess are usually due to faulty equipment and not having a CO monitor etc. There is a risk associated with doing this but you are far more likely to die driving to the lake especially if you take the steps to mitigate the risks.

[Sundancefisher]

Be alive. Buy a proper winter sleeping bag. Then sleep safely and peacefully.
No heater needed.

[leeaspell]

When I first got my 4 man hut and my sunflower heater I took along my 4 head monitor from work. After about 8 hours with it on high it still didnt show aby readings on there. I took it out on a few more trips and still no readings. Now I just leave it at work, no worries anymore.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

[Lefty]

Be alive. Buy a proper winter sleeping bag. Then sleep safely and peacefully.
No heater needed.

My recommendation also. I only run the heat when awake. I sleep better knowing I am going to wake up in the morning. Sometimes lots of ventilation but snow and drifting snow has a way of plugging off airflow sometimes and you never know what the weather is going to do.

[Deep]

Totally agree with the quality bag....out of the wind, no health risks...stay safe fellas.

[220 Swift]

My recommendation also. I only run the heat when awake. I sleep better knowing I am going to wake up in the morning. Sometimes lots of ventilation but snow and drifting snow has a way of plugging off airflow sometimes and you never know what the weather is going to do.

This with a good -40 sleeping bag.

[DOGFISH]

When I first got my 4 man hut and my sunflower heater I took along my 4 head monitor from work. After about 8 hours with it on high it still didnt show aby readings on there. I took it out on a few more trips and still no readings. Now I just leave it at work, no worries anymore.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

Good on you for going the extra step. I have had the same readings with my Big Buddy Heater, Still I use a CO detector to make sure. Always ensure the heater is in top running condition. I have had a CO headache from tuning a truck when I was younger and am still very sensitive to it. It is nothing to mess with.

[JD848]

Be alive. Buy a proper winter sleeping bag. Then sleep safely and peacefully.
No heater needed.

Order a good wiggy's sleeping bag a good cot along with a gel foam and at least a 4 inch foam,good deals on those at ikea's and avoid a the heating buddy.

Heat the thing up so your stuff is dry then shut it off and never take A chance on this kinda death trap.

If your truck is close by there's your safest bet in the back seat,done it countless times,read a book while it idles and your warm then shutter off and sleep,restart every 4 hours to keep the moisture out,and that's where the wiggy's bag comes in great and stays dry .You pay for the bag,but if you wake up dead,then fishing is over for good.

[PlayDoh]

Those concentrations are not that high and wouldn't set off most CO monitors(such as one posted earlier which alarms at 30 ppm).



https://www.detectcarbonmonoxide.com/co-health-risks/



Reason I would place CO monitor lower and not at top of tent is because as this study shows CO is produced and if you put the monitor up high in the hot air accumulating at top of the tent then you will get more false alarms then necessary and increase chances in not believing the alarm is working properly etc.



It seems a couple anglers or so die each year due to CO poisoning but that is a very small number compared to the amount of hours spent by anglers in these tents and if I had to guess are usually due to faulty equipment and not having a CO monitor etc. There is a risk associated with doing this but you are far more likely to die driving to the lake especially if you take the steps to mitigate the risks.



Agreed, although odds mean little when your number comes. When I’m driving I’m in control, and there’s not a $60 detector preventing me from hitting a brick was at 100 km/h.
Odds of winning the lottery are like 1 in 13 billion, but who doesn’t buy a ticket here and there at least? If winning the lottery meant you had to die, who would buy a ticket? Sleeping in a tent with a gas heater is your ticket.
Unless you ensure your prepared for the worst, with some redundancy, it’s a risk. One risk (driving) doesn’t excuse another risk, IMO.
That study shows that CO is released and accumulates, regardless of how well the gas heater is operating. If your burning gas, unvented, your releasing CO, and consuming O2. Both will effect your better judgment, and even though your awake, your possibly as good as dead.
One of the stories in the study said 2 guys were out of their tents and talking to other people, and 10 mins later found unconscious and on their way to sleeping with the fishey’s. Vents closed, faulty heater and possibly other mistakes, but we all make mistakes.

One idea I’ve thought of is having my truck 100 feet away at least with my small generator chained to it and running extension cords to an electric space heater. Generators can kill from CO also, and the distance between your tent / shack is critical.

[RavYak]

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. People also die from CO in their cars, and houses. Better not use a car or heat your house either.

Most people use these heaters in these tents without CO monitors without any issue. Your chances of poisoning are already very slim. Add a CO monitor and you are playing it safe. The chances of having both a CO issue and a faulty monitor would be ridiculous and are not worth worrying about imo.

Here is from mr heater regarding big buddy

This heater is safe for indoor use in small recreational enclosures, having means for providing combustion air and ventilation, such as enclosed porches, cabins, fishing huts, trailers, tent trailers, tents, truck caps and vans. It may be used for emergency indoor heating when connected to a disposable 1 lb. propane cylinder and for indoor use in commercial enclosures, having means for providing combustion air and ventilation, such as construction trailers or temporary work enclosures.

Their vent requirements which every tent I have used would meet with both flaps open and definitely if you don't seal bottom or use a PVC pipe etc.

This heater requires a vent area of 18 square inches (example 4 1/4” x 4 1/4” opening) minimum for adequate ventilation during operation. Do not use other fuel burning appliances inside.

The sunflower heaters are far more dangerous then buddy style and aren't even really recommended for this use although lots of guys use them including myself.

I guess good information for anyone thinking about this is to go on to Mr. Heaters website and read through the manual of the heater you plan on using. There is lots of information in there including how it should run and what to look for to know if it isn't working properly. Something that most guys probably don't have a clue about and just take for granted.

[243plus]

Be alive. Buy a proper winter sleeping bag. Then sleep safely and peacefully.
No heater needed.

This. We've slept at -30 on ice. We heated up the tent just before we got into our winter sleeping bags, then turned the heater off. Wear a toque to bed, as most of the heat escapes from your head. We also put our clothes at our feet so they would be warm in the morning.

Come morning, the first one up turns on the heater to take the chill off the air. Be prepared for a lot of ice crystals on the inside of your tent from you breathing.

But yes, I would never, ever recommend someone use a space heater while sleeping. It's a good way to not ever wake up.

[mooseknuckle]

Good sleeping bag and a few large candles work well.

[FishHunterPro]

Here’s mine I put together last year .

https://i.postimg.cc/gknBnC1x/3-A6-D4-F3-C-E763-48-B9-91-C8-C97-E6-AC764-DF.jpg (https://postimg.cc/svCJLNjz)

https://i.postimg.cc/c1Db1xkq/BF32-FEFF-E0-ED-4-F7-F-81-C4-88-A3069557-B9.jpg (https://postimg.cc/NLH4pcwb)

https://i.postimg.cc/Y0SDNZ9y/DF0-E93-A5-3-F4-E-4277-BA5-C-2-F7-F16-C25207.jpg (https://postimg.cc/jwGht8yz)

[PlayDoh]

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. People also die from CO in their cars, and houses. Better not use a car or heat your house either.



Most people use these heaters in these tents without CO monitors without any issue. Your chances of poisoning are already very slim. Add a CO monitor and you are playing it safe. The chances of having both a CO issue and a faulty monitor would be ridiculous and are not worth worrying about imo.



Here is from mr heater regarding big buddy







Their vent requirements which every tent I have used would meet with both flaps open and definitely if you don't seal bottom or use a PVC pipe etc.







The sunflower heaters are far more dangerous then buddy style and aren't even really recommended for this use although lots of guys use them including myself.



I guess good information for anyone thinking about this is to go on to Mr. Heaters website and read through the manual of the heater you plan on using. There is lots of information in there including how it should run and what to look for to know if it isn't working properly. Something that most guys probably don't have a clue about and just take for granted.



I don’t think a potential way to die is a mole hill. I’m not sure what point your trying to make. People die from other things, like CO in a car so worry less about dying in a tent with a gas heater?

I’m not telling anyone what to do, I’m just sharing how serious I take it. I do know CO detectors can and do fail and the recommendation is to have more than one in a house. $5000 HVAC equipment can release deadly amounts of CO. A $150 heater and a $60 detector powered by a 9v is hardly failsafe.

Your chances of getting in a car accident are low, but that’s not a reason to not wear a seatbelt. I have my HVAC equipment inspected yearly, and have 3 CO monitors plus smoke detectors. Because it’s deadly serious, and cheap insurance in comparison to the potential risk. I’m not going to go to that extent and then crash in a tent with a heater and a CO detector and have no concerns.

I don’t recall seeing anyone else mention using a CO detector before I mentioned I use one a couple years ago. I’m not implying nobody did, but it certainly wasn’t mentioned much if at all.

I have personally been poisoned on a few occasions, back when I was young enough to whiz on risks, and pay little mind to consequences.

If something can kill you, and routinely does kill or come close to kill others every year, it’s not something you weigh the odds and take gambles, IMO. If I can reduce risk, I will. If I can essentially eliminate it, I will sacrifice things like being toasty warm while sleeping on a frozen lake.

Nobody dies by playing it safe, and you only get one chance at life. Again, I’m not implying you do, or sleeping in a tent with both vents open is foolish. I’m only suggesting that at least one uses a CO detector, maybe 2, and calculate how much venting (air changes / hr) is required for your tent in the event your heater ships-the-bed on you. And even then, maybe the wind will pick up and blow in your vents. Maybe it’ll start snowing and block your vents and pipes, while your in lala-land.

Risk vs Reward. Risk = 0 Reward = 100% survival.

It’s very easy to overlook risk, and ignore potential life ending hazards. That’s essential to having a life, and not be paralyzed with fear nonstop. Yet it’s also not hard to do small things that can potentially save a life.

[Supergrit]

http://zodi.com/tent-heaters built for tent. Do the burning outside your tent and blow the hot air in.

[Sundancefisher]

Here you go.

https://www.amazon.ca/Outfitter-Expedition-Military-Fishermen-Enthusiasts/dp/B079G6ZLQ8/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1547400968&sr=8-4&keywords=winter+tent+with+stove+pipe+vent

[PlayDoh]

All things considered, you should be prepared for sleeping without a heater, or have a reliable plan for the event your heater fails.

[FlyTheory]

I don’t think a potential way to die is a mole hill. I’m not sure what point your trying to make. People die from other things, like CO in a car so worry less about dying in a tent with a gas heater?

I’m not telling anyone what to do, I’m just sharing how serious I take it. I do know CO detectors can and do fail and the recommendation is to have more than one in a house. $5000 HVAC equipment can release deadly amounts of CO. A $150 heater and a $60 detector powered by a 9v is hardly failsafe.

Your chances of getting in a car accident are low, but that’s not a reason to not wear a seatbelt. I have my HVAC equipment inspected yearly, and have 3 CO monitors plus smoke detectors. Because it’s deadly serious, and cheap insurance in comparison to the potential risk. I’m not going to go to that extent and then crash in a tent with a heater and a CO detector and have no concerns.

I don’t recall seeing anyone else mention using a CO detector before I mentioned I use one a couple years ago. I’m not implying nobody did, but it certainly wasn’t mentioned much if at all.

I have personally been poisoned on a few occasions, back when I was young enough to whiz on risks, and pay little mind to consequences.

If something can kill you, and routinely does kill or come close to kill others every year, it’s not something you weigh the odds and take gambles, IMO. If I can reduce risk, I will. If I can essentially eliminate it, I will sacrifice things like being toasty warm while sleeping on a frozen lake.

Nobody dies by playing it safe, and you only get one chance at life. Again, I’m not implying you do, or sleeping in a tent with both vents open is foolish. I’m only suggesting that at least one uses a CO detector, maybe 2, and calculate how much venting (air changes / hr) is required for your tent in the event your heater ships-the-bed on you. And even then, maybe the wind will pick up and blow in your vents. Maybe it’ll start snowing and block your vents and pipes, while your in lala-land.

Risk vs Reward. Risk = 0 Reward = 100% survival.

It’s very easy to overlook risk, and ignore potential life ending hazards. That’s essential to having a life, and not be paralyzed with fear nonstop. Yet it’s also not hard to do small things that can potentially save a life.

What’s it like to be poisoned from your personal experience