PDA

View Full Version : Should unconditional rod repairs exis?


Don Andersen
11-26-2019, 10:39 AM
Folks,

I manufacture bamboo fly rods and warranty them against failures in workmanship or materials. I follow General Motors lead where you don’t get a new truck after presenting the radiator cap and $25.00 after you wrapped it around a tree.
Unconditional warranties cost all of us who chose to look after our equipment and failures do to our own errors should not be shared by fellow anglers.
Isn’t it past time where we look after ourselves?

Regards,

Don

ghostguy6
11-26-2019, 11:09 AM
Part of the problem is that it is up to the manufacturer to determine how the rod failed. If the rod owner does not agree with the decision of the manufacturer then problems could arise. For example I had a rod guide fall out of a new rod while putting on new line. I had never been even able to cast the rod once. I paid the $25 to send it to the manufacturer who said it was my fault the rod guide fell out. How could it have been my fault if I wasn't even able to use it yet? You could very easily see the wrap was too loose and the glue did not hold. This alone ****ed me off enough to never buy one of their products again.

We have all done stupid things like step on a rod, close the tip in the case, or try to lift a fish out of the water by the tip. I agree these things should not be covered and an honest fisherman would not even try to warrant such things however in many cases the person actually believes the damage was a result of poor workmanship or poor quality parts. Many times replacement parts are not offered separately and can only be obtained by warranty. Sometimes these warranties themselves are a scam like St. Croix where it costs more to use the warranty then to buy the replacement rod section on your own.

Personally I would rather pay a little extra to know the product I bought will have some support behind it should something happen. Another example is some scopes I have purchased. Bushnell failed to fix the same scope 3 times, I sold all the remaining Bushnell's I had and they lost all further business from me. Leupold offered to send me turret covers under their warranty even though I tried to purchase them myself after I lost them. That alone will gain them much more of my business because I know they stand behind their products. There is also the marketing to think about. Bushnell may not be making money from me any more but they will never get my recommendation nor will you see any logo's on my gear either. I now have Leupold stickers on my truck, gun safe and I would be more than happy to recommend a Leupold to anyone. A little off topic I know but hopefully that proves the point Im trying to make.

pinelakeperch
11-26-2019, 11:12 AM
Part of the problem is that it is up to the manufacturer to determine how the rod failed. If the rod owner does not agree with the decision of the manufacturer then problems could arise. For example I had a rod guide fall out of a new rod while putting on new line. I had never been even able to cast the rod once. I paid the $25 to send it to the manufacturer who said it was my fault the rod guide fell out. How could it have been my fault if I wasn't even able to use it yet? You could very easily see the wrap was too loose and the glue did not hold. This alone ****ed me off enough to never buy one of their products again.

We have all done stupid things like step on a rod, close the tip in the case, or try to lift a fish out of the water by the tip. I agree these things should not be covered and an honest fisherman would not even try to warrant such things however in many cases the person actually believes the damage was a result of poor workmanship or poor quality parts. Many times replacement parts are not offered separately and can only be obtained by warranty. Sometimes these warranties themselves are a scam like St. Croix where it costs more to use the warranty then to buy the replacement rod section on your own.

Personally I would rather pay a little extra to know the product I bought will have some support behind it should something happen. Another example is some scopes I have purchased. Bushnell failed to fix the same scope 3 times, I sold all the remaining Bushnell's I had and they lost all further business from me. Leupold offered to send me turret covers under their warranty even though I tried to purchase them myself after I lost them. That alone will gain them much more of my business because I know they stand behind their products. There is also the marketing to think about. Bushnell may not be making money from me any more but they will never get my recommendation nor will you see any logo's on my gear either. I now have Leupold stickers on my truck, gun safe and I would be more than happy to recommend a Leupold to anyone. A little off topic I know but hopefully that proves the point Im trying to make.

The issue is the dishonest people that take advantage of strong warranties. The large companies can eat those costs, but the smaller ones can't. At the very same time, the smaller companies are forced to offer warranties that are similar to the large companies in order to remain competitive.

Smoky buck
11-26-2019, 11:51 AM
It is the choice of the company if they wish to offer the warranty and to many customers it’s a selling point for sure. The cost of this is definitely added into the price but some of these companies also factor in the increase in sales from this service

Should companies stop offering this service definitely not it would be stupid from a marketing stand point and how many create their place amongst competitors

You have 3 choices as a manufacturer cheap high volume sales, Quality with a trusted name, or great customer service/warranty. As customers we can pick our poison

Vapor
11-26-2019, 12:10 PM
If you manufacture a product and offer an unconditional warranty then you're going to have to build the cost of standing behind that warranty into each and every item you sell. If you have 1 in 10 expected to fail, spread that cost across the 10 so that your price point doesn't get too high and you can afford to absorb the cost. Don't forget to include shipping as part of that offset if you have free shipping.

pikergolf
11-26-2019, 12:21 PM
I like to build the odd rod. Can't do it for others though, a broken rod would kill any profit I made. I am amazed rod manufactures can do it. I think the markup on their products must be substantial to give away all the rod parts people break. Gary Loomis wrote an interesting piece on warranty, he said the vast majority of rods they get back were broken through abuse. I believe it. I have broken one rod, I was high sticking it. When I get a bank, I stress it well before I build. Never had one break.

skykomish sunrise
12-01-2019, 09:35 AM
My good Orvis snapped at me at the second section from the top this fall. No doors no stepping on but without the warranty how do I prove that this was a manufacturer problem. All said and done it cost me a hundred bucks to get my rod back to New and 4 weeks. I'll pay extra to make sure there's a warranty.

Sundancefisher
12-01-2019, 10:28 AM
Realively speaking.

Break a Sage rod with their unconditional warranty and you pay $100 and get a new piece. That piece cost $30 to make.

Companies make money on warranty servicing. They are not free.

For a bamboo rod the cost would be different. But could your warranty just factor in repair costs and profit?

TFO is the same. Replacement part on average costs half the cost of the warranty charge.

Gerald J
12-02-2019, 08:32 AM
I wouldn't change a thing. I usually stay away from rod manufacturers with unconditional warranties. Some people love them. To me, it's a sign of an inferior product.

Walleyedude
12-02-2019, 08:46 AM
The issue is the dishonest people that take advantage of strong warranties. The large companies can eat those costs, but the smaller ones can't. At the very same time, the smaller companies are forced to offer warranties that are similar to the large companies in order to remain competitive.

No company can continually eat the costs of this without it having a major impact on their bottom line.

I was told by a guy in the Shimano warranty department that they'd see a huge spike in "warranty" claims every time they'd introduce a new model line or update a line, especially if the current rod was discontinued, so they'd be forced to replace it with an upgraded rod. That's not just us walleye/pike anglers in AB, that was every bass fisherman in the USA as well, thousands and thousands of rods. Add all that up, and you can blame the demise of the lifetime warranty pretty much squarely on that abuse.

The other factor is that if it is truly a manufacturing defect, it should show up in the first couple uses, maybe 2-3 months max. After that, it is FAR more likely that the break was due to abuse or misuse, either intentional or accidental.

In both cases, the vast majority of the time, the companies were replacing the rods based on good will and customer service, not warrantable defects. Those costs were built into the rods. As shoppers got more price conscious and competition increased, something had to give, and those expensive warranty replacement programs were the logical first thing to go.

Pierre
12-02-2019, 08:50 AM
I'll admit it, I've broken nearly every rod I've owned and all but 1, were entirely my fault.

The one rod that didn't have an unconditional warranty was a G-Loomis, GL3 that cost me +$300. I have never bought another G-Loomis product since. I'm just sayin.....

huntsfurfish
12-02-2019, 12:35 PM
If a rod breaks after the first or second use it likely wasnt a warranty issue.:)

pikergolf
12-02-2019, 12:42 PM
If a rod breaks after the first or second use it likely wasnt a warranty issue.:)

You are correct. Modern high end rods are very fragile, a nick from a fly, a scratch on the finish, it can all cause breakage. There are ugly stiks for those that can't look after their stuff.

EZM
12-02-2019, 08:09 PM
Every single "financially competent" company out there, regardless of warranty structure, is more than likely tracking the cost associated with goodwill and warranty either by product, product line, or on whole, and knows exactly what it costs them in relation to other variable costs in their business.

If it's trending at, 3% of cost (on a contribution basis) you can bet your underpants they are marking up the price to retailers at that same rate.

If they produce a bunch of junk in the next quarter and that number shoots up to 4% and they think that's the new benchmark, guess what, the price to the retailer goes up proportionately if they choose to maintain their margins. They can choose to eat it, but if the new number is a trend, they will try and pass along this to the retailer, and in turn, to us, the consumer.

The only time warranty cost will impact a business, and cannot be recovered, is when an anomaly hit them faster and harder than expected (like a change in manufacturing procedure, new materials, etc.. And that's poor process/change control resulting in poor cost modeling or forecasting.

So warranty is a function related to marketing strategy, and is not necessarily indicative of quality.

If you compare 2 companies, in the same sector, with the same product lines, one of superior quality; and the other of average quality; and both have the same outstanding warranty (like Vortex and Leopold) I bet dollars to doughnuts the %,$ of contribution of cost associated with warranty measured in the superior company is far less compared to the one who has far higher warranty returns and failures.

No smart company would do it any other way. Warranty is marketing - nothing more and nothing less.

Lornce
12-03-2019, 07:15 AM
I own and fish bamboo fly rods that were heavily used by both my Father and Grandad. Taking care of equipment was handed down. I have never had a problem with quality equipment that wasn't my fault. I think too many times individuals try to lay the blame on the company. I worked a time at BassPro and some of the returns were bordering on stupidity. I've seen rods flattened from car tries, cut with a sharp tool, burnt and punctured with something all blaming the manufacturer.

mikeym
12-03-2019, 08:29 AM
i broke my St Croix fly rod this summer while walking thru the brush breaking the 3rd pc from top. totally my fault i tripped and stepped on it. i knew that St Croix sold replacement tip sections (lost one while fishing a few yrs ago) so i looked on their site to see if they sold other pieces also. didn't see anything so called up their customer line and explained the situation. told them it was my fault and wasn't looking for warranty just to buy a replacement piece. they told me to ship the complete rod back to them and they would look into it. they even had a Canadian address to ship to to avoid duties and paperwork.
2 weeks later they called me and said they are sending a new rod to me (not my old rod with new section but a complete new rod) as the one i sent in was the old model. all they were charging was $50 plus shipping and handelling charges. even included new carrying case.
that is why i buy St Croix rods exclusively, customer service. they didn't have to give me a new rod was fully prepared to buy a new one if i couldn't get the replacement section, but they gave me a new rod for cheap.

HuyFishin
12-03-2019, 09:13 AM
i broke my St Croix fly rod this summer while walking thru the brush breaking the 3rd pc from top. totally my fault i tripped and stepped on it. i knew that St Croix sold replacement tip sections (lost one while fishing a few yrs ago) so i looked on their site to see if they sold other pieces also. didn't see anything so called up their customer line and explained the situation. told them it was my fault and wasn't looking for warranty just to buy a replacement piece. they told me to ship the complete rod back to them and they would look into it. they even had a Canadian address to ship to to avoid duties and paperwork.
2 weeks later they called me and said they are sending a new rod to me (not my old rod with new section but a complete new rod) as the one i sent in was the old model. all they were charging was $50 plus shipping and handelling charges. even included new carrying case.
that is why i buy St Croix rods exclusively, customer service. they didn't have to give me a new rod was fully prepared to buy a new one if i couldn't get the replacement section, but they gave me a new rod for cheap.


usually when you're honest and you own up to it the companies are very giving. But if they get the idea you're trying abuse the system they wont be as giving. I work in a business where people try to claim warranty on items with physical damage and vandalism. They try to blame the product and call it "cheap" I void the warranty and they start screaming and yelling at me telling me they wont refer anyone or there friends, slamming my door and leaving. Honestly they think its the businesses loss but the business doesn't want customers that abuse the system anyways.

All customers that come in and tell me the honest truth i always take care of it usually at no cost.

StringTheory
12-03-2019, 10:06 AM
i broke my St Croix fly rod this summer while walking thru the brush breaking the 3rd pc from top. totally my fault i tripped and stepped on it. i knew that St Croix sold replacement tip sections (lost one while fishing a few yrs ago) so i looked on their site to see if they sold other pieces also. didn't see anything so called up their customer line and explained the situation. told them it was my fault and wasn't looking for warranty just to buy a replacement piece. they told me to ship the complete rod back to them and they would look into it. they even had a Canadian address to ship to to avoid duties and paperwork.
2 weeks later they called me and said they are sending a new rod to me (not my old rod with new section but a complete new rod) as the one i sent in was the old model. all they were charging was $50 plus shipping and handling charges. even included new carrying case.
that is why i buy St Croix rods exclusively, customer service. they didn't have to give me a new rod was fully prepared to buy a new one if i couldn't get the replacement section, but they gave me a new rod for cheap.

I had a similar experience with Fenwick this summer. It was a rough day out on the lake, I fell in the boat and broke the tip off my HMG rod. So I called Fenwick, told them exactly what happened and they sent me a brand new rod for 45% off retail, plus I kept the old one and put a new tip on it.

There are a ton of rod manufacturers that offer this kind of service, I wrote about them here actually:

https://www.stringtheoryangling.ca/the-best-fishing-rod-warranties/

To answer Don's original question, unconditional rod warranties are a money losing venture for the manufacturer. As a customer I would jump all over the opportunity to pay once for a lifetime of use on a high end rod - plus I wouldn't have to think twice about settin' that hook!

I think the best compromise between manufacturer and customer is a quality replacement program. My experience with Fenwick is similar to a lot of other anglers and its probably safe to say those manufacturers have earned lifetime customers because of it.

sns2
12-03-2019, 01:37 PM
i broke my St Croix fly rod this summer while walking thru the brush breaking the 3rd pc from top. totally my fault i tripped and stepped on it. i knew that St Croix sold replacement tip sections (lost one while fishing a few yrs ago) so i looked on their site to see if they sold other pieces also. didn't see anything so called up their customer line and explained the situation. told them it was my fault and wasn't looking for warranty just to buy a replacement piece. they told me to ship the complete rod back to them and they would look into it. they even had a Canadian address to ship to to avoid duties and paperwork.
2 weeks later they called me and said they are sending a new rod to me (not my old rod with new section but a complete new rod) as the one i sent in was the old model. all they were charging was $50 plus shipping and handelling charges. even included new carrying case.
that is why i buy St Croix rods exclusively, customer service. they didn't have to give me a new rod was fully prepared to buy a new one if i couldn't get the replacement section, but they gave me a new rod for cheap.

I threw my brand new St Croix into Calling Lake while Kurt 505 was in the next boat over laughing his guts out at me,. You think if I call them up, they will hook me up with a new one for $50???

LOL.

The Elkster
12-03-2019, 01:56 PM
Lifetime warranty is just a marketing gimmick. The companies are most definitely charging higher prices and adding fees to processing to account for warranty costs. There is plenty of markup in high end rods some of which will be set aside to cover warranty costs. That said I believe something like TF rod policy is designed to charge you the wholesale cost of replacement (and they make you pay shipping) so they are not out any actual dollars at any point.

An alternative would be to run a low cost no frills rod company. Many people would forgo a warranty if they saved enough $'s. Don't think many rod company's are eager to start a race to the bottom though with so many customers already conditioned to pay much much more regardless of cost to manufacture. I mean its got a lifetime warranty so it must be worth triple! :thinking-006: