Edmonton's electric buses....

[Bushmaster]

How is ETS making out with their electric buses? Any news on issues or problems?

[jungleboy]

The electric busses with the diesel powered heaters to heat them.

The city that spent a fortune tearing out all the overhead lines that ran the electric busses when they went away from electric and then spent another fortune buying Chinese electric busses that they couldn’t use because they couldn’t charge them so they brought in diesel powered generators to do the job.

[Bigwoodsman]

The electric busses with the diesel powered heaters to heat them.

The city that spent a fortune tearing out all the overhead lines that ran the electric busses when they went away from electric and then spent another fortune buying Chinese electric busses that they couldn’t use because they couldn’t charge them so they brought in diesel powered generators to do the job.

Sounds about right

BW

[flyrodfisher]

How is ETS making out with their electric buses? Any news on issues or problems?

I think that Iveson said that they found out the extension cords were too short....

[KGB]

The electric busses with the diesel powered heaters to heat them.

The city that spent a fortune tearing out all the overhead lines that ran the electric busses when they went away from electric and then spent another fortune buying Chinese electric busses that they couldn’t use because they couldn’t charge them so they brought in diesel powered generators to do the job.

Holy crap!:angry3:
I think this meme is an excellent illustration of this stupidity...

[6.5 shooter]

:1041::126fs2277341: and yet another left wing solution goes down in flames :sign0161: But I am sure the NDP will come to the rescue... :snapoutofit:

[hunterngather]

This is a great time for the old guard to dump on the future.

Transition time...

Dump on "whats new"

I am all for new energy, warts and all.

[hunterngather]

:1041::126fs2277341: and yet another left wing solution goes down in flames :sign0161: But I am sure the NDP will come to the rescue... :snapoutofit:


Electric is the future. Not left wing.

Have fun dumping on the kinks.

[Dynamic]

The amount of resources needed to maintain a complex diesel powertrain is enough for me to say bring on the future. Don’t get caught up on the type of energy, focus of the function which is transporting people from point as to B. If the lifecycle costs of running an electric bus makes financial sense, why not?

[HyperMOA]

This is a great time for the old guard to dump on the future.

Transition time...

Dump on "whats new"

I am all for new energy, warts and all.

Electric is the future. Not left wing.

Have fun dumping on the kinks.

So what electric vehicles, quads, and boats do you own? I could be wrong, but I’d be willing to bet you accept the warts when you aren’t directly paying for them. Let other jurisdictions figure out the warts and when the technology is not in its infancy then adopt it in a more extreme environment. I agree electric is the future; but currently we are still in the present. 😀

[HyperMOA]

The amount of resources needed to maintain a complex diesel powertrain is enough for me to say bring on the future. Don’t get caught up on the type of energy, focus of the function which is transporting people from point as to B. If the lifecycle costs of running an electric bus makes financial sense, why not?

What is so complex about a diesel powertrain? Especially if in fact diesel generators are being adapted to fully electric buses. That is a level of complexity beyond any diesel powered bus. People need to stop believing change is good. Change isn’t necessarily good. Improvement is what we should strive for.

[MyAlberta]

So what electric vehicles, quads, and boats do you own? I could be wrong, but I’d be willing to bet you accept the warts when you aren’t directly paying for them. Let other jurisdictions figure out the warts and when the technology is not in its infancy then adopt it in a more extreme environment. I agree electric is the future; but currently we are still in the present. 😀

I worked on diesel electric traction drives back in the 70’s. That was before dependable solid state devices and computer control. Mid 2000’s I was working on diesel electric topdrives, solid state inverters, plc, pm motors. High density power in small packages. The technology is proven, only the application is in its infancy.

[Tactical Lever]

When you virtue signal so hard that you fall out of the tree....

Nothing wrong with something new. Only been around about 120 years, though. Have to consider the environment and application. Edmonton is one of, if not the most Northern major city in the world. With taxes climbing higher, deficits, lock downs, and city transport being a net money loser, this doesn't seem very prudent.

Figure out how to increase riders, and efficiency of route first, maybe.

[elkhunter11]

The electric busses with the diesel powered heaters to heat them.

The city that spent a fortune tearing out all the overhead lines that ran the electric busses when they went away from electric and then spent another fortune buying Chinese electric busses that they couldn’t use because they couldn’t charge them so they brought in diesel powered generators to do the job.

Anyone with any common sense would be sure they could charge them, before buying them. Unfortunately, virtue signaling is replacing common sense.

[Dynamic]

What is so complex about a diesel powertrain? Especially if in fact diesel generators are being adapted to fully electric buses. That is a level of complexity beyond any diesel powered bus. People need to stop believing change is good. Change isn’t necessarily good. Improvement is what we should strive for.

Comparing the technical drawings a traditional ICE to an electric powertrain and I’m sure you will see my point very quickly. You have to realize with an electric powertrain you are removing thousands of moving parts. Your removing many systems that are no longer needed in an electric bus. Instantly your removing thousands of failure modes (Specific ways equipment can fail). That being said I’m not saying Diesel engines are unreliable, they have been around for so long we have them pretty much figured out. But it takes routine maintenance to keep them reliable, much of which would not be needed with an electric powertrain.

Change done for the right reasons and given sufficient thought and planning is nothing to be scared of. I’m assuming if they are buying electric busses they have the logistics, life cost analysis is favourable, and we won’t be jumping off the deep ends. If we are buying electric bus is just for fun then that is a problem. One thing I’ve learned in my years on this spinning ball is that most people are uncomfortable with change. There is nothing wrong with that. It becomes a problem if we let that feeling get in the way of critical thinking and rational thought.

[elkhunter11]

Change done for the right reasons and given sufficient thought and planning is nothing to be scared of.

If they bought buses with no way to charge them, then obviously, there was not sufficient thought and planning, leading up to the purchase.

[Dynamic]

If they bought buses with no way to charge them, then obviously, there was not sufficient thought and planning, leading up to the purchase.

I agree 100%. That is unacceptable if indeed true. From what I remember didn’t the ETS build a specific electric bus garage where the buses are charged by overhead lines. See link below

https://www.masstransitmag.com/bus/vehicles/hybrid-hydrogen-electric-vehicles/press-release/21147540/proterra-edmonton-transit-service-unveils-electric-buses-and-new-garages

From what I’m reading it sounds like they got it figured out. It sounds like the electric buses will run their full route during the day and charge at night.

[Trochu]

When you virtue signal so hard that you fall out of the tree....

I've noticed the vast majority of the time this happens, they are virtue signaling with other's money. I wish they'd take a stance with their own resources on the line if they believed it so much.

[fishtank]

You think that’s bad. You ain’t see nothing yet .... wait til the lrt gets build :sHa_sarcasticlol:

[Grizzly Adams]

This is a great time for the old guard to dump on the future.

Transition time...

Dump on "whats new"

I am all for new energy, warts and all.


Problem being, when warts turn into tumors. :D

Grizz

[C2C3PO]

I agree 100%. That is unacceptable if indeed true. From what I remember didn’t the ETS build a specific electric bus garage where the buses are charged by overhead lines. See link below

https://www.masstransitmag.com/bus/vehicles/hybrid-hydrogen-electric-vehicles/press-release/21147540/proterra-edmonton-transit-service-unveils-electric-buses-and-new-garages

From what I’m reading it sounds like they got it figured out. It sounds like the electric buses will run their full route during the day and charge at night.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the City is capable of understanding the big picture on any of these undertakings.
The fact that they knew these electric buses were heavier than standard buses and failed to factor that into the thickness/strength of the garage floor resulted in another "unforeseen" cost over-run of more than 10 million dollars to rectify this little mistake after the fact.

[BUSHRVN]

I agree 100%. That is unacceptable if indeed true. From what I remember didn’t the ETS build a specific electric bus garage where the buses are charged by overhead lines. See link below

https://www.masstransitmag.com/bus/vehicles/hybrid-hydrogen-electric-vehicles/press-release/21147540/proterra-edmonton-transit-service-unveils-electric-buses-and-new-garages

From what I’m reading it sounds like they got it figured out. It sounds like the electric buses will run their full route during the day and charge at night.

And this garage is chock full of serious tax payer money waste examples. Like the underground parking for staff, mass areas of unused office space that they will try to lease out, stainless steel handrails in fire exit stairwells$$$$$. The exterior cladding cost alone on this thing could’ve built another building.
A whole lot of extremes of money spent on glamour and impressing or one upping the neighbors on this one. We worked on it and I priced some one the work done there so I’ve seen it all.
Sad waste of tax payer debt.
Oh, and the electrical charging stuff that’s being talked about, was an eleventh hour add on that cost triple what it should have because of the thinks that they had to rip out and redo etc to add this feature once the building was ready for turnover.

[bdub]

This is a great time for the old guard to dump on the future.

Transition time...

Dump on "whats new"

I am all for new energy, warts and all.

The big lie that the climate change greenies fail to understand is there is no new energy. Electricity doesn’t magically appear from any source. We have to dam rivers, burn nat gas or coal, build nuclear power plants, put up thousands of windmills, burn forests(so called biomass), or build solar panel farms.

[bat119]

The buses are made from materials mined with diesel equipment trucked to a factory using coal fired electricity, the finished buses were trucked to a ship running on diesel fuel, crossed the ocean then unloaded and trucked to Edmonton on diesel trucks to be charged with diesel generators.

It’s the green way :sign0161:

[HyperMOA]

I worked on diesel electric traction drives back in the 70’s. That was before dependable solid state devices and computer control. Mid 2000’s I was working on diesel electric topdrives, solid state inverters, plc, pm motors. High density power in small packages. The technology is proven, only the application is in its infancy.

Yes diesel electric has been around since diesel locomotives. The switch from DC to AC drives was huge too. Letourneau had diesel electric loaders in the 90s. We aren’t talking about diesel electric however. We are talking about full electric buses that the city grafted generators to, trying to heat the cabins in the winter. A well thought out plan. Full electric transportation infrastructure is in its infancy.

[HyperMOA]

Comparing the technical drawings a traditional ICE to an electric powertrain and I’m sure you will see my point very quickly. You have to realize with an electric powertrain you are removing thousands of moving parts. Your removing many systems that are no longer needed in an electric bus. Instantly your removing thousands of failure modes (Specific ways equipment can fail). That being said I’m not saying Diesel engines are unreliable, they have been around for so long we have them pretty much figured out. But it takes routine maintenance to keep them reliable, much of which would not be needed with an electric powertrain.

Change done for the right reasons and given sufficient thought and planning is nothing to be scared of. I’m assuming if they are buying electric busses they have the logistics, life cost analysis is favourable, and we won’t be jumping off the deep ends. If we are buying electric bus is just for fun then that is a problem. One thing I’ve learned in my years on this spinning ball is that most people are uncomfortable with change. There is nothing wrong with that. It becomes a problem if we let that feeling get in the way of critical thinking and rational thought.

Your first paragraph is total nonsense. You read that somewhere on Facebook likely and have repeated it over and over and believe it to be truth. It’s not. There aren’t thousands of moving parts in a diesel powertrain. There aren’t hundreds of moving parts in a diesel powertrain. There are dozens. Yes dozens. You are removing parts in an electric drive that’s true, but it’s dozens. But thousands sounds much more impressive than dozens. Those dozens of parts are simple, robust, and maintenance is minimal and easy. Electric drives require routine maintenance too.

Your second paragraph is spot on.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Always thought that a simple conversion of bus engine to natural gas would solve most of the pollution problems of diesel at much lower cost. It would also provide additional market for our low cost natural resource we have in abundance. Technology has been available for years.

[hogie]

The amount of resources needed to maintain a complex diesel powertrain is enough for me to say bring on the future. Don’t get caught up on the type of energy, focus of the function which is transporting people from point as to B. If the lifecycle costs of running an electric bus makes financial sense, why not?

Electric vehicles have maintenance as well. They have cooling systems that need to be maintained for proper function. The battery have to be at proper temperature to work. All the cells in the battery unit are connected to a cooling system. There will be at the minimum one coolant pump involved. If the coolant level is not correct then find the leak. If it's in the battery unit then out it comes, find the problem and repair it. These battery units are sealed , closed systems that need to be leak tested and pass before being installed again.

Battery cells will fail as well. They can be replaced individually once the battery unit is removed and disassembled.

Drive units are mechanical as well, gears and gear fluid. They will need maintenance as well.

Braking systems, electric will use regeneration braking as much as possible but still have to have a backup system. Early electric vehicles didn't use the backup brakes often enough that they would deteriorate components. Newer ones will force them to be used to keep them functioning properly. Done by modules.

There will still be multiple modules and sensors involved on electric vehicles to make them work. These will fail just like they do on any vehicle.

Electric vehicle will not be maintenance free, they will have there own set of issues that will have to be dealt with. Tesla, which only produces Electric vehicles have failures. Wait until they are actually being mass produced and it will be no different than any other vehicle. There is more care taken in manufacturing them right now because they produce so little of them.

If it's made by man it will fail. Electric vehicles will have failures just like any other vehicle. Still mechanical at the end of the day. Still require maintenance to function properly.

Time will tell if they are actually any more green than an efficient ICE engine. Battery production, recycling of them is not better environmentally than oil production. Lithium mining has its own set issues that isn't good for us as well.

[bat119]

Going full circle, I rode the trolley's back in the day no charging required

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/picture.php?albumid=2299&pictureid=11337

[marlin1]

Always thought that a simple conversion of bus engine to natural gas would solve most of the pollution problems of diesel at much lower cost. It would also provide additional market for our low cost natural resource we have in abundance. Technology has been available for years.

this is what Calgary transit is doing or was when I left .

[6.5 shooter]

Electric is the future. Not left wing.

Have fun dumping on the kinks.

You could try a few unicorn f..ts.... may help....

[Dynamic]

Your first paragraph is total nonsense. You read that somewhere on Facebook likely and have repeated it over and over and believe it to be truth. It’s not. There aren’t thousands of moving parts in a diesel powertrain. There aren’t hundreds of moving parts in a diesel powertrain. There are dozens. Yes dozens. You are removing parts in an electric drive that’s true, but it’s dozens. But thousands sounds much more impressive than dozens. Those dozens of parts are simple, robust, and maintenance is minimal and easy. Electric drives require routine maintenance too.

Your second paragraph is spot on.

Thanks I stand corrected, I had a major brain miscalculation and was quickly heading out the door as I typed this out. Believe me, the day I get my information from Facebook or any other social media is the day I hang it up and do my best Abe Simpson impersonation yelling at clouds on a street corner. My main point was that an electric drivetrain is of a much simpler design than that of your typical diesel engine.

[Dynamic]

Electric vehicles have maintenance as well. They have cooling systems that need to be maintained for proper function. The battery have to be at proper temperature to work. All the cells in the battery unit are connected to a cooling system. There will be at the minimum one coolant pump involved. If the coolant level is not correct then find the leak. If it's in the battery unit then out it comes, find the problem and repair it. These battery units are sealed , closed systems that need to be leak tested and pass before being installed again.

Battery cells will fail as well. They can be replaced individually once the battery unit is removed and disassembled.

Drive units are mechanical as well, gears and gear fluid. They will need maintenance as well.

Braking systems, electric will use regeneration braking as much as possible but still have to have a backup system. Early electric vehicles didn't use the backup brakes often enough that they would deteriorate components. Newer ones will force them to be used to keep them functioning properly. Done by modules.

There will still be multiple modules and sensors involved on electric vehicles to make them work. These will fail just like they do on any vehicle.

Electric vehicle will not be maintenance free, they will have there own set of issues that will have to be dealt with. Tesla, which only produces Electric vehicles have failures. Wait until they are actually being mass produced and it will be no different than any other vehicle. There is more care taken in manufacturing them right now because they produce so little of them.

If it's made by man it will fail. Electric vehicles will have failures just like any other vehicle. Still mechanical at the end of the day. Still require maintenance to function properly.

Time will tell if they are actually any more green than an efficient ICE engine. Battery production, recycling of them is not better environmentally than oil production. Lithium mining has its own set issues that isn't good for us as well.

I agree with much of what you are saying. I am not saying that electric vehicles are maintenance free by any stretch. I am just pointing out that electric powertrains are of a much simpler design. I am sure transmission shops around the world are sweating bullets realizing that EVs have absolutely no need for a gearbox. The CEO of Jiffy lube and all these quick oil change places are all having conversations now about how they can gracefully end it. Imagine a world with no more oil changes or a transmission flush just because it is time apparently by some standard no one can agree upon.

And yes there will be a steep learning curve when it comes to troubleshooting and diagnosing problems. The city had better be on point when it comes to training technicians. But to have our heads in the sands and saying the best way to move people from A to B is to fill your vehicle with a fossil fuel and move you with little controlled and coordinated explosions is such a weird way to think for me. I am a maintenance guy, have been for many years. Nothing is better than something that performs its function with as little fuss as possible.

[HyperMOA]

Thanks I stand corrected, I had a major brain miscalculation and was quickly heading out the door as I typed this out. Believe me, the day I get my information from Facebook or any other social media is the day I hang it up and do my best Abe Simpson impersonation yelling at clouds on a street corner. My main point was that an electric drivetrain is of a much simpler design than that of your typical diesel engine.

Actually some of the big electric drives still run planetaries and oils. The big drivers are also quite complex. The big drivers I’d say are much more complicated than a conventional powertrain. You are correct that oil changes / services are reduced on electric drive.

I am curious though if the electric vehicle doesn’t evolve somewhat in the future to use an electric motor mounted to a transmission and or differentials. It would have fewer motors (but larger) drawing amperage and wasting less power to heat. Especially in a 4x4 application or eventually in bigger units such as buses and semis where heavy loads would be a bigger issue. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s not the case.

Sorry about the Facebook comment. I’ve just heard this many times and assumed it must be some standard Facebook post. I’m not on Facebook so I wouldn’t know. I’ve just heard this said many times before and have corrected many.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Going full circle, I rode the trolley's back in the day no charging required

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/picture.php?albumid=2299&pictureid=11337

Remember waiting in traffic behind one of those when the pickup arm popped off the wire? Bus driver would get out, and in a few moments he'd have it clipped back on and then be back on his way. Of course, it occurred a lot when they were in the middle of a turn... :lol:

Funny how that was so routine... Now all but forgotten.

Thanks for the recall, Bat119. :)

[trailraat]

Actually some of the big electric drives still run planetaries and oils. The big drivers are also quite complex. The big drivers I’d say are much more complicated than a conventional powertrain. You are correct that oil changes / services are reduced on electric drive.

I am curious though if the electric vehicle doesn’t evolve somewhat in the future to use an electric motor mounted to a transmission and or differentials. It would have fewer motors (but larger) drawing amperage and wasting less power to heat. Especially in a 4x4 application or eventually in bigger units such as buses and semis where heavy loads would be a bigger issue. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s not the case.

Sorry about the Facebook comment. I’ve just heard this many times and assumed it must be some standard Facebook post. I’m not on Facebook so I wouldn’t know. I’ve just heard this said many times before and have corrected many.

Based on my understanding of electric powered this doesn't make sense. The drivetrain in a vehicle accounts for around 15% efficiency loss. Between this and the reduced number of components it makes more sense to have an electric motor mounted at each wheel. This isn't new technology. They've been doing it in heavy equipment since the sixties.

The really new part of electric vehicle technology is the batteries and that is where the problem lies. Batteries at this point are too inefficient, costly, and resource intensive when compared to hydrocarbon fuels.

When batteries can be produced for comparable resources to gasoline, at similar energy content ratios, and be proven as reliable then a transition to electric transportation will succeed.

[6.5 shooter]

https://images.app.goo.gl/ih5mW81nuM9WUG9W9

Just remember where all that "green" COPPER comes from :thinking-006: Only one of thousands of disturbing images on the net....

[Arty]

Always thought that a simple conversion of bus engine to natural gas would solve most of the pollution problems of diesel at much lower cost. It would also provide additional market for our low cost natural resource we have in abundance. Technology has been available for years.

Propane conversion was the big new thing a few decades ago. That petered out after people found out how inefficient it was and what an expensive pain in the butt it was to convert and run.

Now, nat gas (methane) has even worse energy content and is more difficult to compress and package into usable quantities, and to manufacture and maintain the on-board and filling compression infrastructure (i.e. fittings and tanks). Diesel has always had much higher energy content and engines deliver much more torque for a given displacement and unit of fuel consumed, which makes it ideal for heavy vehicles.

You have to burn much more methane carbon to get the same amount of mechanical torque/energy delivered by a unit of diesel carbon (in addition to the higher volume-specific energy content of diesel). So you're dumping much more carbon pollution into the air just by using methane because the engine is much less efficient.

It's a similar problem to using DEF on a diesel - you're dumping all those additional millions of tons of DEF-related stuff into the air in addition to whatever the diesel itself is putting out. And the diesel engine is made less efficient with all the add-ons, directly causing more CO2 to be produced per road mile by bolting all that junk on in the first place. Not to mention all the manufacturing and mining pollution caused by making the add-on parts and shipping them to engine factories and building them on, etc. (i.e. no free lunch).

[Arty]

[...]

The really new part of electric vehicle technology is the batteries and that is where the problem lies. Batteries at this point are too inefficient, costly, and resource intensive when compared to hydrocarbon fuels.
[...]


This. A big distinction exists between battery-vehicles and electric-vehicles.

True electric vehicles (i.e. high-speed pantograph trains, streetcards and trolley busses) have been around and were largely perfected decades ago. They work well where distribution lines follow highly-used routes, like on the Nr. 2 highway and freight train corridors, and getting to an office from a residence every day.

Huge numbers of single- and increasing numbers of double-trailered highway transports are increasingly running over our main highway corridors, which could better be fuelled by electric lines - either tethered or semi-tethered using short-range resonant induction energy transmission - at least for hand-off from one system to another.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=6492113
To say nothing of replacement of 2-cycle diesel-electric locomotives with electric pantograph systems.

The biggest problem with commuting and travel ridership is the implicit 'culture-busting' of flooding established largely white ridership with undesirables of various nature. So most just say to hell with it and get the auto loan and pay monthly parking and deal with bad winter weather. That's not a technology problem, it's a political games problem. The second biggest problem is scheduling and travel times which are often longer than driving a similar route in perfect weather at midnight on a weekend. During rush hour traffic in bad weather, rail and a little walking is often more effective.

For both freight and ridership, once you get away from high-frequency corridors and regular routes that all becomes less relevant. In some cases a battery motorcycle or little battery car is a viable option. But the users should be paying for the necessary expanded infrastructure and energy costs of charging, just as consumers implicitly pay for extraction and refinery and distribution costs of diesel in the liter cost of it.

Lithium and rare-earth mineral sourcing becomes a global political game, and battery manufacturing and disposal ('recycling') becomes a huge ecological problem. Those problems are now just swept under the carpet because it disturbs the nice little narrative of battery-powered vehicles. (no free lunch).

[HyperMOA]

Based on my understanding of electric powered this doesn't make sense. The drivetrain in a vehicle accounts for around 15% efficiency loss. Between this and the reduced number of components it makes more sense to have an electric motor mounted at each wheel. This isn't new technology. They've been doing it in heavy equipment since the sixties.

The really new part of electric vehicle technology is the batteries and that is where the problem lies. Batteries at this point are too inefficient, costly, and resource intensive when compared to hydrocarbon fuels.

When batteries can be produced for comparable resources to gasoline, at similar energy content ratios, and be proven as reliable then a transition to electric transportation will succeed.

You could be right. I am just stating what I think could be coming. My opinion is derived from the mining and equipment side actually. See, those big haul trucks that are electric have “drivers” which in effect are giant controllers, motors and planetaries built into one unit. The motor still requires a gear reduction for these trucks to pull away from the shovel in soft ground with a 400 ton payload. Running through that planetary severely hampers its top speed. That is where CAT’s 797 actually dominates the electric trucks because it can still hit 40-50 mph with 400 tons on. Most mines now limit haul speeds so the advantage of the mechanical truck is gone. So it makes more sense to run the slower electric trucks as they are easier to service than the CAT 797. Load times are no longer important as there are just more trucks travelling slower.

So this is why I believe that some larger equipment and semis that require deep gear reductions and high speeds may evolve into an electric motor running versions of today’s power trains. I could be wrong too. However adding a planetary to an electric motor is already reducing its efficiency so having it run through a diff may be viable. As I stated in a 4x4 application that may be viable too. However, with electric drivers and no diff can you imagine the insane suspension and wheel travels that could be built into extreme 4x4s!!!

Just my observations.

[Arty]

You could be right. I am just stating what I think could be coming. My opinion is derived from the mining and equipment side actually. See, those big haul trucks that are electric have “drivers” which in effect are giant controllers, motors and planetaries built into one unit. The motor still requires a gear reduction for these trucks to pull away from the shovel in soft ground with a 400 ton payload. Running through that planetary severely hampers its top speed. That is where CAT’s 797 actually dominates the electric trucks because it can still hit 40-50 mph with 400 tons on. Most mines now limit haul speeds so the advantage of the mechanical truck is gone. So it makes more sense to run the slower electric trucks as they are easier to service than the CAT 797. Load times are no longer important as there are just more trucks travelling slower.

So this is why I believe that some larger equipment and semis that require deep gear reductions and high speeds may evolve into an electric motor running versions of today’s power trains. I could be wrong too. However adding a planetary to an electric motor is already reducing its efficiency so having it run through a diff may be viable. As I stated in a 4x4 application that may be viable too. However, with electric drivers and no diff can you imagine the insane suspension and wheel travels that could be built into extreme 4x4s!!!

Just my observations.

A torque-equivalent (4000 hp/1800 rpm) 3-phase medium voltage electric motor would be much smaller, lighter and probably simpler than a C-175/20 too. If the torque curves had enough in common, that might work. For the same weight and size, a lot larger electric motor could be used.

But I'm assuming this applies to a tethered ('trolley') type 13.8 kV connection similar to those used to power the shovels. All the generation and electrical synchronization problems become someone else's problem. However I've never seen or heard of a trolley-type tethered-cable truck in the mines that I've worked at.

For diesel-electric, diesel remains the prime mover part of the equation and 'electric' is really just the transmission component. It's conceivable that a purely mechanical transmission in a heavy hauler application is stronger and more efficient than swapping into and back out of the electric realm. For hydraulic transmissions, it often is. If the electric transmission is used, you'd probably have to keep the same type of 'driver' parts you've mentioned to properly interact with the diesel engine.

Diesel-electric in trains is a big advantage because applying mechanical power to six drive axles on two trucks would be crazy complicated. In ships, it allows several different engines to contribute power equally to all underwater drive pods. So you can start up additional engines as power is needed. Or if an engine craps out or needs maintenance, you don't completely lose power to one propeller.

But a heavy hauler only has one engine, if you consider a pair of compounded 12's to be one engine. And it only has one axle. Difficult to see the advantage over a 797F.

[HyperMOA]

A torque-equivalent (4000 hp/1800 rpm) 3-phase medium voltage electric motor would be much smaller, lighter and probably simpler than a C-175/20 too. If the torque curves had enough in common, that might work. For the same weight and size, a lot larger electric motor could be used.

But I'm assuming this applies to a tethered ('trolley') type 13.8 kV connection similar to those used to power the shovels. All the generation and electrical synchronization problems become someone else's problem. However I've never seen or heard of a trolley-type tethered-cable truck in the mines that I've worked at.

For diesel-electric, diesel remains the prime mover part of the equation and 'electric' is really just the transmission component. It's conceivable that a purely mechanical transmission in a heavy hauler application is stronger and more efficient than swapping into and back out of the electric realm. For hydraulic transmissions, it often is. If the electric transmission is used, you'd probably have to keep the same type of 'driver' parts you've mentioned to properly interact with the diesel engine.

Diesel-electric in trains is a big advantage because applying mechanical power to six drive axles on two trucks would be crazy complicated. In ships, it allows several different engines to contribute power equally to all underwater drive pods. So you can start up additional engines as power is needed. Or if an engine craps out or needs maintenance, you don't completely lose power to one propeller.

But a heavy hauler only has one engine, if you consider a pair of compounded 12's to be one engine. And it only has one axle. Difficult to see the advantage over a 797F.

The 797F is actually the C175 20 cylinder you spoke of earlier. The older 797 was the 2 3512 12 cylinder engines coupled together. I’m not sure what you mean in that last paragraph. The advantage of the diesel electric is a much smaller maintenance schedule over the 797 trucks. And on the comparable electric trucks they use two separate drivers. One on each rear wheel.

I agree though a tethered electric anything is simple. Leaving the tether and running on batteries in the mining world is the challenge. Or trucking for that matter. That’s why I say, I think there could be some pretty crazy drives and systems coming to the equipment and semi world as the ICE is phased out. Every 1/10 of a percent efficiency will need to be exploited. I’m really interested what will come down the pipe. My guess is “off-highway”, like ships, will be exempt from ICE bans. There’s just is no practical way to store the energy of 1000 liters of diesel on a quarry truck right now. Diesel electric likely becomes king.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Arty, I agree less energy in natural gas than diesel. However you are only moving a few skinny people going to work, not hauling a drilling rig.
The biggest problem with a diesel engine in a city is the P2.5 micron particles in the exhaust when diesel engine under load. The black smoke, burning coal is a major cause of lung cancer in cities. The particles absorb carcinogenic PAHs and they end up in your lungs. A much more serious problem than a little green house gas.

[HyperMOA]

Arty, I agree less energy in natural gas than diesel. However you are only moving a few skinny people going to work, not hauling a drilling rig.
The biggest problem with a diesel engine in a city is the P2.5 micron particles in the exhaust when diesel engine under load. The black smoke, burning coal is a major cause of lung cancer in cities. The particles absorb carcinogenic PAHs and they end up in your lungs. A much more serious problem than a little green house gas.

Converting a diesel to natural gas sees significant HP loss immediately. To the tune of 20-30% if memory serves me correct.

When you mention P2.5, I assume you mean PM (particulate matter)? I have never heard of different levels of filtering based on micron sizing. I know that Tier4 Final saw reductions of something like 95% of PM and about 85% on very large Diesel engines. (Like ship, locomotive, big compression, not D8 CAT) 800 HP is the minimum I believe to only have to reduce PM by 85%.

I’ve never read about micron rating before. Do you have any info regarding that?

[Big Grey Wolf]

When a B train truck stops at street light in city and starts moving diesel engine will blow black smoke which contains the PM 2.5 micron particles contaminated with Poly Aromatic carcinogenic chemicals. They lodge in your lungs and eventually cause lung cancer.
When truck trimmed out going down highway with well tuned engine then most of exhaust is quite clean with CO2, water vapour and some NOX.

[HyperMOA]

When a B train truck stops at street light in city and starts moving diesel engine will blow black smoke which contains the PM 2.5 micron particles contaminated with Poly Aromatic carcinogenic chemicals. They lodge in your lungs and eventually cause lung cancer.
When truck trimmed out going down highway with well tuned engine then most of exhaust is quite clean with CO2, water vapour and some NOX.

A tier 4 interim and final truck will not puff any clouds of smoke at all under any RPM or load range. If the emissions system stays intact that is. Still never heard of PM based on micron sizing. Why 2.5 micron and not 4 micron? Or 10 micron? Why do you refer to 2.5 micron.

If you are talking about a 1973 cab-over Pete with the fuel screws turned in 3 turns and the AFRC collapsing the diaphragm yes they will “roll coal”. What I am concerned that nobody talks about is the ammonia released from exhaust when the system has no AMOX.