View Full Version : AB fisheries management....trust the science,
PerchBuster
05-12-2021, 12:47 PM
https://www.outdoorcanada.ca/this-science-proves-that-keeping-small-fish-while-releasing-the-big-ones-improves-a-fishery/
I brought this up to the AB fisheries manager at the regional meeting a couple years ago in St. Albert and he steadfastly disagreed with the article I had printed off for him. Yet again, the science is in complete conflict with the current practices of our Provincial fisheries management plan. Never made sense to me that Pike retention was 1 over 63cm any size and Walleye lakes had retention for Fish over 50cm and still do with the A tags. His theory was to give every fish the chance to spawn at least once so keeping larger fish was a better option than keeping small fish under 43 cm. The science says different but will they ever first listen, and secondly adopt the sound scientific management principles that other jurisdictions across the country and all over N.A. utilize for their much more successful fisheries. I’ve heard the arguments presented about AB having fewer lakes and more fishing pressure. All the more reason to ensure they manage every single water body better using sound scientific principles not theories and guesstimates. Trust the science and start making improvements that lead to sustainable harvest without the need for Special Harvest Licenses and open more lakes up to harvest opportunities with slot limits as the improvements take hold instead of sticking to the status quo and spinning our wheels for years on end like the current path we are on. The “Next Step Team” of volunteer biologists etc have done a lot of great work to try and promote these and many other sound principles and engage with the Gov and AB fisheries biologists and managers but largely to no avail yet. Get your support behind these folks and maybe one day the lawmakers will finally listen to the science and get us on a better path
trigger7mm
05-12-2021, 01:59 PM
Alberta is the only province or state in North America that targets prime spawning size fish for retention. I’ve always scratched my head trying to figure out the logic behind this. Why not follow the examples set by fishery managers that have shown that success includes slot limits and intensive hatchery programs? In my mind, if we are able to keep a fish for the table, why not let it be a smaller fish instead of a spawner? I’m sure many would agree with a one fish per day limit per person, one fish possession limit. If a family is at the lake, fishing, and each member of the family keeps one fish, that would be more than enough for a good fish fry. What we certainly do not need is the ability to fill your freezer with fish. Our province has been mismanaged for a very long time.
wind drift
05-12-2021, 02:38 PM
This topic has been addressed repeatedly by the bios, yet the simple facts about harvest pressure and egg supply seem to elude us. Alberta doesn’t target spawners for harvest per se, but rather uses size limits to delay the harvest of adults until they have spawned a couple of times. Fishing pressure is too high here to allow fish to be harvested before they’ve spawned, unless the number of folks fishing on any given lake is limited, which most of us would likely not support. The other aspect that has been explained repeatedly is that, for a fish population, there are way more eggs produced by all the young adults than in the fewer old adults, even though on a individual basis, a large fish will have more eggs than a small fish. The bios have to manage a whole population and put rules in place to do that.
wind drift
05-12-2021, 02:58 PM
https://www.outdoorcanada.ca/this-science-proves-that-keeping-small-fish-while-releasing-the-big-ones-improves-a-fishery/
I brought this up to the AB fisheries manager at the regional meeting a couple years ago in St. Albert and he steadfastly disagreed with the article I had printed off for him. Yet again, the science is in complete conflict with the current practices of our Provincial fisheries management plan. Never made sense to me that Pike retention was 1 over 63cm any size and Walleye lakes had retention for Fish over 50cm and still do with the A tags. His theory was to give every fish the chance to spawn at least once so keeping larger fish was a better option than keeping small fish under 43 cm. The science says different but will they ever first listen, and secondly adopt the sound scientific management principles that other jurisdictions across the country and all over N.A. utilize for their much more successful fisheries. I’ve heard the arguments presented about AB having fewer lakes and more fishing pressure. All the more reason to ensure they manage every single water body better using sound scientific principles not theories and guesstimates. Trust the science and start making improvements that lead to sustainable harvest without the need for Special Harvest Licenses and open more lakes up to harvest opportunities with slot limits as the improvements take hold instead of sticking to the status quo and spinning our wheels for years on end like the current path we are on. The “Next Step Team” of volunteer biologists etc have done a lot of great work to try and promote these and many other sound principles and engage with the Gov and AB fisheries biologists and managers but largely to no avail yet. Get your support behind these folks and maybe one day the lawmakers will finally listen to the science and get us on a better path
Great work? Aren’t those volunteer “biologists” mostly the ones that let the lakes and rivers get depleted over 20 years ago? I sat in on a presentation by one of that gang at a F&G club meeting. I wouldn’t call what I saw science, mostly rhetoric and cherry-picked data that didn’t even consider fishing pressure.
JareS
05-12-2021, 04:07 PM
The fact is, that Alberta simply cannot sustain a regime where smaller fish can be retained.
Yes, absolutely throw back the big ones if you care about the future of our fisheries.
Alberta has far too many anglers per lake to allow the harvest of smaller fish. Alberta has roughly 100 anglers per fishable lake, whereas MB and SK are closer to 1:1 or 2:1. This allows those provinces to have regulations that sustains harvest of smaller fish.
Having regulations that only allow for harvest of big fish is the lesser of two evils. Either no retention allowed whatsoever, or just retention of harder to catch, and therefore less frequently harvested fish.
The beef should be whether or not we should allow harvest of big fish, not whether or not we should allow harvest of young age classes.
Jamie Black R/T
05-12-2021, 04:19 PM
the reverse slot makes more sense to me.
1 fish outside the slot.
Set the slot wide enough to protect a few age classes determined by their spawning viability. Make catching a harvestable fish tough to do.
People keep saying the unders would get cleaned out. Im not convinced that's the case. Those smaller walleyes aren't that easy to target.
AlbertanGP
05-12-2021, 04:19 PM
https://www.outdoorcanada.ca/this-science-proves-that-keeping-small-fish-while-releasing-the-big-ones-improves-a-fishery/
This is an old study that I would assume (having a B.Sc. in Biological Sciences myself) to be common knowledge amongst fisheries managers based on where it was published. What's even more sad is that the detrimental effects of the selective harvest of large fish is reversible (https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2009.0003).
SNAPFisher
05-12-2021, 04:24 PM
Hey PB, good post.
What I don't get is why you support a slot limit but not tags. To me they are very similar. Tags are an obvious slot size but limit the number in that slot that can be taken. How can that be bad if they are so similar? Is putting a tag on a fish that much of an ordeal?
Smoky buck
05-12-2021, 04:34 PM
Alberta it not the only province or state that uses a min size limit to target fish after they spawn once. Yes it’s an old style of management that is not as commonly used do to the fact it can impact brood stock. Most places have switched slot, or restrict it to one larger fish with the rest of the daily limit being smaller, and yes many others protect large brood stock with all retention being of smaller fish
The whole Alberta angling pressure issue maybe uncommon in Canada but not a unique issue in North America or other parts of the world. There is proven options to manage angler pressure that are not used in Alberta. No Alberta will never provide the C&k opportunity found in places like Saskatchewan
Alberta is not going to be solved by one small change in management of any kind
This has been beat to death and it seems there is only two camps. One thinks Alberta fisheries are too fragile and should basically be C&R or tags. The other dreams of mimicking other provinces with more liberal limits. Personally I believe there is other options
One thing to remember when it comes to fisheries or Wildlife management there is always options.
Either way beating this dead horse on a forum is a waste of time and won’t achieve change
pikeman06
05-12-2021, 04:50 PM
Totally backwards. Are they sure a 62cm pike is a successful spawner? Do they have any idea what the impact on food sources for ALL game fish is when there are millions of walleye introduced to an existing ecosystem that was barely able to balance itself to begin with, then protect those predators till they die of old age and have very limited spawning success in most lakes because they are probably eating their own young. I don't mind the stocking program but they don't need to be treated like a commodity. Treat em like a trout and if enough survive to spawn then fine. Maybe some guys like catching and throwing back a hundred starving fish an evening but that isn't typical walleye fishing in a lake with a stable food base. Just my 2 cents but I been fishing alberta for 45 years and there were many years when a walleye was an incidental catch and that's all they ever were. Alot of these "walleye lakes" they are trying to create were just good pike n perch lakes and the walleyes never really took hold for a reason beyond our control.
Pierre
05-13-2021, 08:39 AM
due to the angling pressure we have here in Alberta, nothing (or hardly anything) will make it through 'whatever slot size' is instituted.
pikergolf
05-13-2021, 09:05 AM
due to the angling pressure we have here in Alberta, nothing (or hardly anything) will make it through 'whatever slot size' is instituted.
Seems people have a hard time with that concept.
SNAPFisher
05-13-2021, 10:50 AM
due to the angling pressure we have here in Alberta, nothing (or hardly anything) will make it through 'whatever slot size' is instituted.
We have a looking glass into that now with walleye reg changes. Some at very populated lakes. We will see what happens in some of these cases.
Alberta has far too many anglers per lake to allow the harvest of smaller fish. Alberta has roughly 100 anglers per fishable lake, whereas MB and SK are closer to 1:1 or 2:1. This allows those provinces to have regulations that sustains harvest of smaller fish.
This is only partly true, those numbers include hard to access lakes which rarely see any fishing pressure. The more popular lakes in AB/Sask see a ton of traffic and do allow harvest in almost all cases. On waterbodies in the USA close to big cities they see even more traffic than anything up here, they make up for it through stocking programs.
Smoky buck
05-13-2021, 03:00 PM
We have a looking glass into that now with walleye reg changes. Some at very populated lakes. We will see what happens in some of these cases.
It will be interesting to see how some of the new walleye openings slot and any size work out.
Sundancefisher
05-13-2021, 04:33 PM
Alberta is the only province or state in North America that targets prime spawning size fish for retention. I’ve always scratched my head trying to figure out the logic behind this. Why not follow the examples set by fishery managers that have shown that success includes slot limits and intensive hatchery programs? In my mind, if we are able to keep a fish for the table, why not let it be a smaller fish instead of a spawner? I’m sure many would agree with a one fish per day limit per person, one fish possession limit. If a family is at the lake, fishing, and each member of the family keeps one fish, that would be more than enough for a good fish fry. What we certainly do not need is the ability to fill your freezer with fish. Our province has been mismanaged for a very long time.
When is the big mountain whitefish prime time in Alberta?
During the spawn.
marty1
05-13-2021, 05:59 PM
We have a looking glass into that now with walleye reg changes. Some at very populated lakes. We will see what happens in some of these cases.
Yup and I think it's safe to say "not good" the two lakes I fish most of the summer guys are already abusing the one fish limit that recently opened up,I'm seeing the same guys 2,3 and even 4 times a day go out and return with fish every time, alot of them cottage or rec property owners on those particular lakes.The one lake I fish since bringing in the tag system (A CLASS TAGS ) In particular have put a real hurt on the big fish population ,prior to tags 20-30" eyes no problem and at will ,now not so much. Unfortunately with the lack of fishing opportunity in the province along with population growth,water quality declining and all the people that simply don't care about regs,its not going to matter what the bios do,it will always be an up hill battle. Just my thoughts
Smoky buck
05-13-2021, 06:33 PM
Yup and I think it's safe to say "not good" the two lakes I fish most of the summer guys are already abusing the one fish limit that recently opened up,I'm seeing the same guys 2,3 and even 4 times a day go out and return with fish every time, alot of them cottage or rec property owners on those particular lakes.The one lake I fish since bringing in the tag system (A CLASS TAGS ) In particular have put a real hurt on the big fish population ,prior to tags 20-30" eyes no problem and at will ,now not so much. Unfortunately with the lack of fishing opportunity in the province along with population growth,water quality declining and all the people that simply don't care about regs,its not going to matter what the bios do,it will always be an up hill battle. Just my thoughts
That is a poacher issue not a regs issue and there has been lots of talk about this with 0 retention/tags. Seems some who live on a body of water believe regs don’t apply to home owners. This goes beyond people who live on lakes and beyond walleye
MathewsArcher
05-13-2021, 06:44 PM
It will be interesting to see how some of the new walleye openings slot and any size work out.
This was alluded too in the fisheries management round tables. While only one year of data has been collected since slots were introduced it doesnt look good as population declines within the slots have been substantial and more restrictive measures will likely be requires to keep populations form crashing. See what happens after a second season.
I’d rather be outdoors
05-13-2021, 07:17 PM
Funny observation about assuming the catch & cook crowd will decimate a lake. They opened PCR up to 3 fish (eyes or pike) to make room for trout. But existing species are still prevalent in the lake (or at least caught). Referencing our existing management practices, catching these species should be almost impossible/non existent, but here we are. The pike are looking very well fed btw. Numbers have decreased (expected), but they’re still in there.
ab_hunter
05-13-2021, 08:15 PM
In order to have what I would deem a successful fishery in Alberta, the regulations are going to have to be iterative and fluid for each individual water body in Alberta. What may work for 2 years on one specific water body for walleye may very well have to change on the 3rd year. There is no "one size fits all" or "set it and forget it" solution here.
Pierre
05-14-2021, 03:58 PM
Alberta is the only province or state in North America that targets prime spawning size fish for retention.
as stated previously, nothing makes it through whatever 'slot size' the govt institutes, so the fish won't ever GET TO prime spawning size if you allow harvest of immature fish....re: eventual collapsed fishery:angry3:
Pikebreath
05-14-2021, 05:55 PM
as stated previously, nothing makes it through whatever 'slot size' the govt institutes, so the fish won't ever GET TO prime spawning size if you allow harvest of immature fish....re: eventual collapsed fishery:angry3:
Unfortunately so true on most Albeta fisheries. I find it strange that so many of the armchair biologists miss that point.
FIN samples consisistently show severe drop offs in numbers of fish in most populations once they hit the minimum legal size. Whether we agree with FIN sampling or not, angler catch rates do seem to verfy the FIN size results.
A slot that targets younger fish just means a lower minimum size limit. Unless there is also a corresponding restriction on harvest within the slot. Oh, wait a moment, I think that is called "tags'!!!
Smoky buck
05-14-2021, 07:12 PM
Unfortunately so true on most Albeta fisheries. I find it strange that so many of the armchair biologists miss that point.
FIN samples consisistently show severe drop offs in numbers of fish in most populations once they hit the minimum legal size. Whether we agree with FIN sampling or not, angler catch rates do seem to verfy the FIN size results.
A slot that targets younger fish just means a lower minimum size limit. Unless there is also a corresponding restriction on harvest within the slot. Oh, wait a moment, I think that is called "tags'!!!
Your last paragraph speaks truth regarding the use of just size restrictions where the anger pressure is too high. Yes it is wise to use corresponding management tools to limit harvest numbers. Tags are a method that achieves this
The fact is though tags are not the only option and Alberta is not the only place in this world to deal with high angler harvest. Creating a management plan to stay within harvest goals is not complicated it’s appeasing the public well doing so is
Clearly the later is the biggest issue with the tag system
The other factors in the ecosystem are actually where a bios job becomes more difficult
But I also have a background that puts me a step above armchair bio and the guys who have read a few reports so I likely have a different outlook :thinking-006:
If you are happy with the present Alberta management that is fair but to assume their is no other options is incorrect
OL_JR
05-14-2021, 08:00 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again I do think that tags have their place in Alberta. High pressure close to urban populations in our relatively featureless lakes that tend to concentrate fish on a handful of structure.
What grinds my gears though and ties in to the article that the OP shared is why, when we feel that there is a harvestable population without tags, do the big fish need to be included.
Wabasca would be a good example of that. Imho ripe for a slot but now they think it can handle a harvest so it's back to a 1 over and they increased the minimum on pike by 10cm. Great. Guess more 40 inch plus pike get to get bonked again. Same thing that was happening before it got closed. Look I can somewhat get the mentality of ensuring that enough fish get to spawning age, but why does every fish need to be fair game after? You could insert a number of lake into this scenario.
Even with the tags why not involve a slot to protect the big fish. Keep as many of the fast growing genes in the population.
My last thought would be that I hope the bios give the slots a fair shake. I was honestly dissapointed that they gave up on Moose after one year. To me that screams preconceived notions by the bios especially after a shortened test netting. The bio that presented on Moose in the round tables struck me as having his agenda set.
In the end I'm happy that they are trying new things and I hope it can continue with an open mind and maybe there will come a day when we can sqaush the "1 over" mentality.
PerchBuster
05-15-2021, 06:41 AM
as stated previously, nothing makes it through whatever 'slot size' the govt institutes, so the fish won't ever GET TO prime spawning size if you allow harvest of immature fish....re: eventual collapsed fishery:angry3:
Totally incorrect
PerchBuster
05-15-2021, 06:42 AM
In order to have what I would deem a successful fishery in Alberta, the regulations are going to have to be iterative and fluid for each individual water body in Alberta. What may work for 2 years on one specific water body for walleye may very well have to change on the 3rd year. There is no "one size fits all" or "set it and forget it" solution here.
Totally agree!
PerchBuster
05-15-2021, 06:43 AM
This is only partly true, those numbers include hard to access lakes which rarely see any fishing pressure. The more popular lakes in AB/Sask see a ton of traffic and do allow harvest in almost all cases. On waterbodies in the USA close to big cities they see even more traffic than anything up here, they make up for it through stocking programs.
Toatally agree
PerchBuster
05-15-2021, 06:56 AM
Hey PB, good post.
What I don't get is why you support a slot limit but not tags. To me they are very similar. Tags are an obvious slot size but limit the number in that slot that can be taken. How can that be bad if they are so similar? Is putting a tag on a fish that much of an ordeal?
Not being drawn for tags for 3 yrs forced me to travel all the way up to Slave to be able to harvest a fish and yet the “collapsed” or high risk lakes I have fished closer to home you can catch nice slot sized fish until your arm falls off has been a big turn off for me. And for example a lake like Pigeon. They’ve issued thousands of tags there the last number of years, don’t even sell out all the undersubscribed tags so tags are not necessary there. Just let a guy keep a slot fish I say just like up at Slave if the population can support sustainable harvest. More current lake surveying is needed to understand the true population sizes not using outdated surveys and guesstimates. There are many lakes deemed collapsed where you can catch 50 or more Walleye per person in under 3 hrs.
PerchBuster
05-15-2021, 06:58 AM
The fact is, that Alberta simply cannot sustain a regime where smaller fish can be retained.
Yes, absolutely throw back the big ones if you care about the future of our fisheries.
Alberta has far too many anglers per lake to allow the harvest of smaller fish. Alberta has roughly 100 anglers per fishable lake, whereas MB and SK are closer to 1:1 or 2:1. This allows those provinces to have regulations that sustains harvest of smaller fish.
Having regulations that only allow for harvest of big fish is the lesser of two evils. Either no retention allowed whatsoever, or just retention of harder to catch, and therefore less frequently harvested fish.
The beef should be whether or not we should allow harvest of big fish, not whether or not we should allow harvest of young age classes.
Totally disagree
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