Police training in Canada

[hafwit]

I just read that Finland has one of the highest numbers of citizen owned firearms in the developed world far more than the US and Canada and there have been two police shootings that killed civilians in the last 10 years. The American cops kill 1000 per year . I’m convinced it is training that makes the difference. Edmonton city police requires 27 weeks of training. Finland… 3 years. Thoughts?

[tirebob]

I just read that Finland has one of the highest numbers of citizen owned firearms in the developed world far more than the US and Canada and there have been two police shootings that killed civilians in the last 10 years. The American cops kill 1000 per year . I’m convinced it is training that makes the difference. Edmonton city police requires 27 weeks of training. Finland… 3 years. Thoughts?

I think it goes far beyond just police training although that is certainly one aspect of it. You need to look at the general public construct as well. The first thing that comes to mind is how people behave towards the police over there. Do they have the same tendency towards disrespect? Do they have the same level of guns on the street in the hands of criminals that we have here? Do they have the same propensity to flee and threaten the police?

These are just a few quick questions that come to mind. Not even remotely close to all the subtle nuances that create differences between the two situations. My point being I think it is completely unfair to peg just one aspect as "the reason".

I will qualify this response as well by saying I really do not know the answer, but such a myopic view of the situation will not fix it.

[catnthehat]

I just read that Finland has one of the highest numbers of citizen owned firearms in the developed world far more than the US and Canada and there have been two police shootings that killed civilians in the last 10 years. The American cops kill 1000 per year . I’m convinced it is training that makes the difference. Edmonton city police requires 27 weeks of training. Finland… 3 years. Thoughts?

That would be pe rcapita I think.
Total population of U.S = 326 million
total population of Canada = 37 million
total population of Finland =5.5 million
Cat

[brendan's dad]

Not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but the US has a much higher rate of civilian gun ownership than any other country. Canada is even higher than Finland, not by much, but still higher.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-ownership-by-country

[hafwit]

still. 6 months vs. 3 years of training? 2 deaths in 10 years.

[JD848]

For the next 72 hours maybe we can think of other things to talk about then LEO'S .

Merry Xmas to all.

JD

[Tungsten,]

still. 6 months vs. 3 years of training? 2 deaths in 10 years.

Yup ,here’s a gun. Go get ‘em boys.

[catnthehat]

Yup ,here’s a gun. Go get ‘em boys.

If a person want to be amazed , they could always look at the training and licensing requirements for owning firearms and hunting in Europe.
That would be an eye opener
Cat

[Zip]

For the next 72 hours maybe we can think of other things to talk about then LEO'S .

Merry Xmas to all.

JD

Merry Christmas JD…right now your words above is exactly what we should be thinking about….good post!
Zip:)

[Phil McCracken]

For the next 72 hours maybe we can think of other things to talk about then LEO'S .

Merry Xmas to all.

JD

Yep you are right.

While you and your families are enjoying the holidays, the LEOs across Alberta and Canada are working to keep you, and you families safe.

Nice touch...

Merry Xmas to you too...:)

[JD848]

Yep you are right.

While you and your families are enjoying the holidays, the LEOs across Alberta and Canada are working to keep you, and you families safe.

Nice touch...

Merry Xmas to you too...:)

I was hopping this was not going to turn into some cop bashing thread as they turn into , maybe this is what you wanted or am i wrong here, if so i apologize.

Cheers
JD

[JD848]

Well what's up Phil ?

JD

[fishnguy]

A guy reads some false information on the internet and is convinced in his beliefs.

You should read about their legal system, punishable offences, punishments, educational system, social services, and so on. Many, incorrectly, call it communism and free for all. The picture is much bigger than a fake story on the internet.

[Phil McCracken]

I was hopping this was not going to turn into some cop bashing thread as they turn into , maybe this is what you wanted or am i wrong here, if so i apologize.

Cheers
JD

I re read your post.

Appears as though I may have taken it out of context.

As such, I apologize...no need for you to do so...All good...:)

Merry Xmas!

[calgarychef]

If a person want to be amazed , they could always look at the training and licensing requirements for owning firearms and hunting in Europe.
That would be an eye opener
Cat

Agreed. Most European shooters are so well trained it puts us to shame.

[58thecat]

The fins are slow learners!

Haha


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[antlercarver]

The police are OK, its the justice system thats the problem. The police keep catching the same people over and over. And the first time someone is caught
is likely not the first time they needed correction.

[marky_mark]

the police are ok, its the justice system thats the problem. The police keep catching the same people over and over. And the first time someone is caught
is likely not the first time they needed correction.

100%

[RandyBoBandy]

The police are OK, its the justice system thats the problem. The police keep catching the same people over and over. And the first time someone is caught
is likely not the first time they needed correction.

X2 :happy0034:

[Ariu]

I have lived the most of my adult life in that part of the world and I can confirm. One of my high school friends went into police school. They were taught firearms, physical education and unarmed combat, communication, law.... 3 years long.
As for the police shooting, those countries are very social and this might affect the numbers.

[fishnguy]

The police are OK, its the justice system thats the problem. The police keep catching the same people over and over. And the first time someone is caught is likely not the first time they needed correction.
An interesting point then to make is, since the comparison was made by the op, why is it different in the Nordic countries? Their punishments are noticeably softer than what we have here and rehabilitation rates are also higher.

[elkhunter11]

The issue according to a friend that served over 30 years in the RCMP, and that finished his career at the training depot, is not the training, it's the people they started accepting into the force. I remember him telling us that many of the new recruits would never have been accepted into the force in the 70s, when he started his career. And of course our justice system has gone downhill as well, and is now badly broken.

[kingrat]

The issue according to a friend that served over 30 years in the RCMP, and that finished his career at the training depot, is not the training, it's the people they started accepting into the force. I remember him telling us that many of the new recruits would never have been accepted into the force in the 70s, when he started his career. And of course our justice system has gone downhill as well, and is now badly broken.
X2 the fed correctional system is the exact same. Especially in the last 10 years I'd say.

[CaberTosser]

I would be so bold as to suggest a huge part of those #’s is more due to the public that are being policed than the officers. Finland, being a Nordic country doesn’t have the weather that has lots of their citizens wandering around outside all night getting up to mischief and worse. There’s also the education levels to compare, factoring in literacy and such. What are the percentage of drug addicts and gangs in Finland compared to the USA? What are the employment #’s in both nations?

There are a lot of factors that contribute to the differences in police shooting #’s rather than merely the # of firearms per capita. Watch a few hours of YouTube video’s of police shootings in either nation and you’ll see why the USA has many, lots of perps simply force the matter and don’t leave officers with any other choice. Not suggesting that every last shooting is a good one, but most are. I doubt there will even be much, if any, video of police shootings in Finland.

[Grizzly Adams1]

The issue according to a friend that served over 30 years in the RCMP, and that finished his career at the training depot, is not the training, it's the people they started accepting into the force. I remember him telling us that many of the new recruits would never have been accepted into the force in the 70s, when he started his career. And of course our justice system has gone downhill as well, and is now badly broken.

They've relaxed standards to a ridiculous low, a 120 lb. female has little choice when it comes to dealing with a 240 lb. belligerent male than to put a half dozen of slug in the center of mass.

Grizz

[kingrat]

Well we've been getting nothing but 300lb women and males who can barely speak English. Nothing against either one, just not suited for the job is all.

[Phil McCracken]

The issue according to a friend that served over 30 years in the RCMP, and that finished his career at the training depot, is not the training, it's the people they started accepting into the force. I remember him telling us that many of the new recruits would never have been accepted into the force in the 70s, when he started his career. And of course our justice system has gone downhill as well, and is now badly broken.

Your friend is right...:)

[huntinstuff]

It's training and self discipline

I practiced monthly.

Im betting I went through 50-60 thousand rounds in 25 years.

I knew guys and gals that shot 20-50 rounds per year at their annual qualification and that is it.

I went through a ton of pens and notebooks in 25 years too.......

It all depends on how interested you are in the career and how proficient you choose to be with your equipment. I made my choices and it served me and the community well.

And every single time I pulled the trigger on my handgun or carbine, I meant it.

And there are 8 or 9 people still alive because I viewed my firearms as a last resort, not an option.

One year on my birthday it was -38. This bank robber shot at me twice as I chased him on foot near the railroad tracks on Calgary Trail. Could have shot him many times but didnt because I knew he sucked with a pistol and it just didnt seem fair. He knew he sucked with a pistol too because he dumped it and I caught him. He sucked at fighting too btw....

[58thecat]

Our cops are adequately trained for what they have to do, as they choose to specialize so does the level of training, now they bust their butts catching bad guys/gals but the system is the issue....all I know is they are very busy around this area and if they weren’t out doing their job we would be in a hurt locker real quick.

[antlercarver]

With a very few exceptions respect for police is 4.5 out of 5
Respect for the justice system on a good day, maybe 1.5 out of 5
Respect for lawyers who defend a person who has been in court multiple
times, -3 out of 5
In the Nordic countries maybe the courts and police have earned public
respect, and criminals have learned respect for the courts. Which we
do not have here.

[Phil McCracken]

Our cops are adequately trained for what they have to do, as they choose to specialize so does the level of training, now they bust their butts catching bad guys/gals but the system is the issue....all I know is they are very busy around this area and if they weren’t out doing their job we would be in a hurt locker real quick.

Someone gets it...:)

[elkhunter11]

Someone gets it...:)

But if you start with sub standard candidates, training isn't enough. And you did agree with my friend about some of the candidates that are being accepted into the force.

[58thecat]

But if you start with sub standard candidates, training isn't enough. And you did agree with my friend about some of the candidates that are being accepted into the force.

Some....like any other work force.....
an unspecified amount or number of...:)

[Phil McCracken]

But if you start with sub standard candidates, training isn't enough. And you did agree with my friend about some of the candidates that are being accepted into the force.

Yes.

But not all of them are "sub standard".

As stated before, your friend is in fact right in regards to "some" of the candidates..

Some do not belong in this line of work.

But because of the Government narrative (not RCMP narrative), unfortunately, some of them do get "accepted" into the program.

Having said that, RCMP Depot Division has their own training standards, and they are excellent.

Spoke to a nephew of mine that was off for Xmas few days ago from Depot. He has been in training for the past 2 months.

4 from his troop were sent home already....or back trooped. Rest of the troop are doing quite fine according to the training standards.

Maybe not a training issue...maybe a "political recruiting issue"?

Who knows...

And I still agree with your friend...:)

[elkhunter11]

Yes.

But not all of them are "sub standard".

As stated before, your friend is in fact right in regards to "some" of the candidates..

Some do not belong in this line of work.

But because of the Government narrative (not RCMP narrative), unfortunately, some of them do get "accepted" into the program.

Having said that, RCMP Depot Division has their own training standards, and they are excellent.

Spoke to a nephew of mine that was off for Xmas few days ago from Depot. He has been in training for the past 2 months.

4 from his troop were sent home already....or back trooped. Rest of the troop are doing quite fine according to the training standards.

Maybe not a training issue...maybe a "political recruiting issue"?

Who knows...

And I still agree with your friend...:)

He did say accepted into the force, not just accepted into training. In other words, several actually made it through their training and became officers. And yes, he mentioned that there was a lot of politics at play as to who was accepted. The people that he felt weren't fit to be officers, generally fit into certain demographics. But regardless of why they are being accepted as officers, the point is that they are being accepted, and are trusted to carry a loaded restricted/prohibited firearm in public.

[RandyBoBandy]

It's training and self discipline

I practiced monthly.

Im betting I went through 50-60 thousand rounds in 25 years.

I knew guys and gals that shot 20-50 rounds per year at their annual qualification and that is it.

I went through a ton of pens and notebooks in 25 years too.......

It all depends on how interested you are in the career and how proficient you choose to be with your equipment. I made my choices and it served me and the community well.

And every single time I pulled the trigger on my handgun or carbine, I meant it.

And there are 8 or 9 people still alive because I viewed my firearms as a last resort, not an option.

One year on my birthday it was -38. This bank robber shot at me twice as I chased him on foot near the railroad tracks on Calgary Trail. Could have shot him many times but didnt because I knew he sucked with a pistol and it just didnt seem fair. He knew he sucked with a pistol too because he dumped it and I caught him. He sucked at fighting too btw....
Thank you for your diligence and service to Edmonton :)

[WV911]

Its politically incorrect but I don't care.

Mounties should be wearing Mountie HATS

[roper1]

It's training and self discipline

I practiced monthly.

Im betting I went through 50-60 thousand rounds in 25 years.

I knew guys and gals that shot 20-50 rounds per year at their annual qualification and that is it.

I went through a ton of pens and notebooks in 25 years too.......

It all depends on how interested you are in the career and how proficient you choose to be with your equipment. I made my choices and it served me and the community well.

And every single time I pulled the trigger on my handgun or carbine, I meant it.

And there are 8 or 9 people still alive because I viewed my firearms as a last resort, not an option.

One year on my birthday it was -38. This bank robber shot at me twice as I chased him on foot near the railroad tracks on Calgary Trail. Could have shot him many times but didnt because I knew he sucked with a pistol and it just didnt seem fair. He knew he sucked with a pistol too because he dumped it and I caught him. He sucked at fighting too btw....

Thanks Sir!

[huntinstuff]

Thanks Sir!

Was a long time ago.....at a time when HR was a bottle of rum.....lol

[brendan's dad]

Unfortunately the recruit quality is directly proportional to the number of persons applying. It is not a demographic thing, it is purely a numbers game.

Lets says the RCMP needs to hire 10 people. The concept is to have those 10 people represent the population of Canada. So right off the bat, 5 are male and 5 are female. Also 6 need to be white, 1 needs to be native, and 3 need be other minorities.

Here's the problem

For the 3 whites male positions, 200 applied
For the 3 white female positions, 80 applied
For the 3 minorities positions, 30 applied
For the 1 native position, 5 applied.

So it really is a numbers game, the more applicants you have, the higher you can set the standards for acceptance.

But right now, every police force is having trouble filling their recruit classes even with the lower standards being applied.

And it is going to get a lot worst as police forces are bracing for mass retirements as soon as Covid is over. There is a lot of 20+ year Members that have gotten very use to working from home and have no desire to return to the office.

Couple that with with the constant attacks by the media and social media and the whole "defund the police movement". Who the heck in their right mind would want to become a police officer in today's environment?

[WV911]

Unfortunately the recruit quality is directly proportional to the number of persons applying. It is not a demographic thing, it is purely a numbers game.

Lets says the RCMP needs to hire 10 people. The concept is to have those 10 people represent the population of Canada. So right off the bat, 5 are male and 5 are female. Also 6 need to be white, 1 needs to be native, and 3 need be other minorities.

Here's the problem

For the 3 whites male positions, 200 applied
For the 3 white female positions, 80 applied
For the 3 minorities positions, 30 applied
For the 1 native position, 5 applied.

So it really is a numbers game, the more applicants you have, the higher you can set the standards for acceptance.

But right now, every police force is having trouble filling their recruit classes even with the lower standards being applied.

And it is going to get a lot worst as police forces are bracing for mass retirements as soon as Covid is over. There is a lot of 20+ year Members that have gotten very use to working from home and have no desire to return to the office.

Couple that with with the constant attacks by the media and social media and the whole "defund the police movement". Who the heck in their right mind would want to become a police officer in today's environment?


This right here, and some on AO here are in this category
Glad my son went Fire Department

[elkhunter11]

Unfortunately the recruit quality is directly proportional to the number of persons applying. It is not a demographic thing, it is purely a numbers game.

Lets says the RCMP needs to hire 10 people. The concept is to have those 10 people represent the population of Canada. So right off the bat, 5 are male and 5 are female. Also 6 need to be white, 1 needs to be native, and 3 need be other minorities.

Here's the problem

For the 3 whites male positions, 200 applied
For the 3 white female positions, 80 applied
For the 3 minorities positions, 30 applied
For the 1 native position, 5 applied.

So it really is a numbers game, the more applicants you have, the higher you can set the standards for acceptance.

But right now, every police force is having trouble filling their recruit classes even with the lower standards being applied.

And it is going to get a lot worst as police forces are bracing for mass retirements as soon as Covid is over. There is a lot of 20+ year Members that have gotten very use to working from home and have no desire to return to the office.

Couple that with with the constant attacks by the media and social media and the whole "defund the police movement". Who the heck in their right mind would want to become a police officer in today's environment?

The fact that they consider demographics rather than just hiring the best candidates, is a demographics thing.

[huntinstuff]

Imagine owning a business

You need 100 people. 1000 people apply.

Makes sense to test, evaluate, background, aptitude, polygraph, then hire the top 100

Could be all females. Great. Could be all males. Great. Could be all people from Tibet. Great. But you hired the top 100.

Then people who didnt make the cut complain. Call you racist, biased, etc.....

So you cut 20 of your top 100 to appease.....

Ridiculous. The top people should get the job. Period. You want the job? Better yourself. Be better than the next guy. The very second you decide your race matters, you are the true racist.

[elkhunter11]

Imagine owning a business

You need 100 people. 1000 people apply.

Makes sense to test, evaluate, background, aptitude, polygraph, then hire the top 100

Could be all females. Great. Could be all males. Great. Could be all people from Tibet. Great. But you hired the top 100.

Then people who didnt make the cut complain. Call you racist, biased, etc.....

So you cut 20 of your top 100 to appease.....

Ridiculous. The top people should get the job. Period. You want the job? Better yourself. Be better than the next guy. The very second you decide your race matters, you are the true racist.

Exactly! I did a lot of hiring, and HR did try to pressure me into hiring lesser qualified people, but I resisted their pressure, and when they went to my manager to complain, he made it clear that I was the one doing the hiring for his area. And after my manager reminded them that another area hired one of the people they wanted me to hire and she failed the entrance drug test, they stopped trying to pressure me, and tried to influence the new leaders that were easier to intimidate.

[brendan's dad]

The fact that they consider demographics rather than just hiring the best candidates, is a demographics thing.

That is not what I was referring to. What I was saying is, that it is the lack of applicants in each demographic that lowers the quality of the successful candidates.

To put it another way

If 300 applied for the 3 white male positions
If 300 applied for the 3 white female positions
If 300 applied for the 3 minority positions
and
If 100 applied for the 1 native position

I believe you would have 10 applicants that are equally qualified.

[elkhunter11]

That is not what I was referring to. What I was saying is, that it is the lack of applicants in each demographic that lowers the quality of the successful candidates.

To put it another way

If 300 applied for the 3 white male positions
If 300 applied for the 3 white female positions
If 300 applied for the 3 minority positions
and
If 100 applied for the 1 native position

I believe you would have 10 applicants that are equally qualified.

And yet Phil agrees with my ex RCMP friend, that they are accepting candidates into the force that aren't qualified.:thinking-006:

[brendan's dad]

And yet Phil agrees with my ex RCMP friend, that they are accepting candidates into the force that aren't qualified.:thinkin g-006:

I will try to explain this another way.

Every RCMP applicant must meet the minimum requirements for engagement prior to being accepted a Depot. These minimums are fairly low and rarely will an applicant be accepted on the bare minimums.

But if the number of applicants continues to decrease, and the number of retirements and new positions increase, then applicants being accepted on the bare minimums could definitely happen.

If you go back to my 1st post (the numbers are just for examples purposes)

For the 3 whites male positions, 200 applied
For the 3 white female positions, 80 applied
For the 3 minorities positions, 30 applied
For the 1 native position, 5 applied.

Let's say the application process is scored out of 10.

Because there was 200 white males applying for the 3 position, you were able to identify three applicants that all scored 10.

With the 3 white female positions, you were only able to identify one applicant that scored 10 and two that scored 9

The 3 minority positions, again because there is less applicants, you only identifies one applicant that scores 9 and two that score 8.

The same applies for the one native position.

But they still need to fill those 10 positions.

So the best candidates from each demographic will be selected for the positions reserved for that demographic.

So like a said before, it is a numbers game.

[brendan's dad]

And yet Phil agrees with my ex RCMP friend, that they are accepting candidates into the force that aren't qualified.:thinking-006:

And when your friend showed up at depot 35 years ago as a recruit, the experienced Members at that time, were also complaining that recruits weren't what they use to be.

[58thecat]

And when your friend showed up at depot 35 years ago as a recruit, the experienced Members at that time, were also complaining that recruits weren't what they use to be.


Exactly….stop it Elk your record playing over and over about how bad the LEO’s etc is sad….time to change the needle and put on a new record.


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[elkhunter11]

Exactly….stop it Elk your record playing over and over about how bad the LEO’s etc is sad….time to change the needle and put on a new record.


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At no point have I posted that all LEOs, or even the majority were sub standard. What I have pointed out is that some are sub standard and the forces often defend, or cover up for these sub standard officers , rather than holding them accountable. And incidents like High River, the Vancouver Airport incident, and the Nova Scotia firehall incident result in more and more public mistrust of the entire force. It's not that people just wake up one day and declare that they don't trust the police, the mostrust is usually based on past incidents.

[58thecat]

At no point have I posted that all LEOs, or even the majority were sub standard. What I have pointed out is that some are sub standard and the forces often defend, or cover up for these sub standard officers , rather than holding them accountable. And incidents like High River, the Vancouver Airport incident, and the Nova Scotia firehall incident result in more and more public mistrust of the entire force. It's not that people just wake up one day and declare that they don't trust the police, the mostrust is usually based on past incidents.


Nope just a small portion of the population that have a social media platform kinda like what is going on here thankfully the subject gets replaced by that one bloody cloud that shows up on a sunny day and there is something else to complain about!

https://media0.giphy.com/media/fqtyYcXoDV0X6ss8Mf/giphy.gif


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[WV911]

Nope just a small portion of the population that have a social media platform kinda like what is going on here thankfully the subject gets replaced by that one bloody cloud that shows up on a sunny day and there is something else to complain about!

https://media0.giphy.com/media/fqtyYcXoDV0X6ss8Mf/giphy.gif


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Isn't that the sad truth

[Phil McCracken]

At no point have I posted that all LEOs, or even the majority were sub standard. What I have pointed out is that some are sub standard and the forces often defend, or cover up for these sub standard officers , rather than holding them accountable. And incidents like High River, the Vancouver Airport incident, and the Nova Scotia firehall incident result in more and more public mistrust of the entire force. It's not that people just wake up one day and declare that they don't trust the police, the mostrust is usually based on past incidents.

Give it up my friend...

This thread has FA to do with these incidents you keep bringing back over and over and over and over and over again...

Stick to the narrative...:)