Interesting thoughts

[obsessed1]

Why is it that as men generally we consider some rounds as good for kids or our wives and have no issue with them hunting with them but we are not confident in the round for ourselves? with regards to our kids we say they can grow into a larger round... if the round isn't capable for hunting for a "man" why is it capable for a lady, or a kid up until he is able "to grow into something bigger"?
Just something to ponder...

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[Dick284]

Machoism
Ego’s
Lack of knowledge.

I lump the .243 Win. and the .410 bore shotgun in the same category. An experts firearm!
Both work on way more game than most can fathom, but you’d better have a fair amount of experience with shooting them to get those results.

[sns2]

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[Smoky buck]

I have been a believer in a smaller hole in the right spot is much better then a bigger hole in the wrong spot for along time

The only caliber I am completely opposed to owning for my self is the 6.5 creedmore and that is because my hair is too short for a man bun and a purse just looks awkward to haul out a deer with. I don’t think I need a bigger caliber though lol

[32-40win]

Likely a perpetualized attitude from the days of using spears and bow & arrow. Hunting mags & shows have promoted magnumitis for decades as well. Think we are well aware you don't need a 500NE to kill elephants, and moose and bear are not armor plated, but, there is a higher risk level involved in using a small cartridge, and these days, we have some societal thingy called ethics about hunting, which it is very much in our nature, to want to test, when we see something we want.

[elkhunter11]

With smaller shooters, especially new smaller shooterslight weight and recoil are more important, as the smaller shooter needs to be able to handle the firearm and the recoil. But the cartridge still needs to be adequate for the game it is used for. So for a new smaller shooter, I like one of the smaller capacity 6.5-7mm cartridges, with reduced recoil ammunition. As they get used to the recoil and their skills grow, they can transition to full power loads, which are suitable at the longer ranges they are now comfortable shooting. I am actually helping a friend get started into reloading, and he will be loading reduced loads for a 6.5CM, instead of the 243win that he was going to buy for his daughter originally.
For shotguns, a 20 gauge gas operated semi auto is a much better choice than a single shot 410, as recoil is still mild, and the odds of hitting moving targets is much better, so the new shooter won't get frustrated as easily.

[Dean2]

What to me always get missed in lighter, lower recoil discussions is 250-3000, 257 Roberts, 300 Savage, 6.5x55, 32 Special, 30-30, 25-40 and a host of really effective rounds that have very low recoil while still producing great results on game. 95% of game is shot under 200 yards, by new hunters or experienced ones. A larger diameter bullet moving a little slower is no real handicap out to 250 yards. It isn't like the trajectory changes all that much and being under 8 lbs of recoil has very large benefits.

[MountainTi]

I have been a believer in a smaller hole in the right spot is much better then a bigger hole in the wrong spot for along time

l

How about a bigger hole in the right spot?

[Dean2]

How about a bigger hole in the right spot?
:):):):):happy0180:

[Smoky buck]

How about a bigger hole in the right spot?

Dead seems to be dead if the hole is in the right spot. A bigger hole doesn’t seem to make them any deader :)

[CNP]

Why is it that as men generally we consider some rounds as good for kids or our wives and have no issue with them hunting with them but we are not confident in the round for ourselves? with regards to our kids we say they can grow into a larger round... if the round isn't capable for hunting for a "man" why is it capable for a lady, or a kid up until he is able "to grow into something bigger"?
Just something to ponder...

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haha......I shoot the cartridges that "men" recommend for women and children. I can't bring myself to wear pink shirts though:thinking-006:

I use 25.06 and 7mm08 for everything in AB and I sold my magnums years ago.

[Pathfinder76]

Why is it that as men generally we consider some rounds as good for kids or our wives and have no issue with them hunting with them but we are not confident in the round for ourselves? with regards to our kids we say they can grow into a larger round... if the round isn't capable for hunting for a "man" why is it capable for a lady, or a kid up until he is able "to grow into something bigger"?
Just something to ponder...

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Because they have no clue. They have never killed with them. Or they are considering their own marksmanship.

[Jerry D]

I was thinking of this in the youth thread.

You start them on a youth model in a suitable chambering.

They may very well buy a full size rifle in the future in the same chambering.

I know a big guy that has twice been bitten by a 7mm08. It’s more than enough gun for him!

[fps plus]

I agree it’s strange how it’s a “good caliber for youth” but not good for me . As I have gotten old , more experience , I have moved to enjoy smaller calibers.

[obsessed1]

If I don't think its adequate for myself why in the world would I let my ,12year old use it???and if it is adequate for myself why do I refer to them as youth or wife calibers? I get smaller shorter rifles for younger smaller shooters.....

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[graham1]

I went with smaller calibers when my boys were young and made sure their shots were as close as possible.
When they got older and more experienced they moved to larger calibers to reach out further if necessary.

Bull elk in the 300 yard range seems a bit much to ask of a .243
I’m sure others will have a different opinion though.

[Dean2]

I love all guns. Have everything from pee shooters to shoulder mounted artillery. 17 to 70 caliber. The variety is what makes it so interesting. I think far too many under estimate what younger shooters can shoot well with a good fitting gun. By the time I was 12 I was shooting a 303 no problem and I was very accurate with it. I was In good shape and had been taught proper shooting form but i was far from a big kid. When I turned 14 I went to a LH Savage in 300WM. It was one of the very first commonly available lh guns and that was the cartridge that was available. It took no time at all to get used to that gun. Between 14 and 18 I wore out 2 of those and was working on my third when Remington brought out the 700 BDL in LH, and that was a much more refined gun than the early Savage 110 Cs, so switched to the 7 rem mag and shot that cartridge for many years, along with a raft of other ones. At 15 I was shooting skeet competitively In all 4 gauges. 100 rounds of 12 gauge was a normal day shoot.

Most young shooters react to the noise more than even the recoil. A set of ear plugs under the muffs helps with that a lot.

[MountainTi]

Dead seems to be dead if the hole is in the right spot. A bigger hole doesn’t seem to make them any deader :)

Wonder why there are African countries that require a minimum caliber? And the guys guiding for the big bears up in Alaska strongly suggesting minimum calibers of .375? These guys have seen a lot of big bears go down and far more experienced than most on here I'm guessing.

I get it, not everyone likes or can handle the "magnums". But why, time and again, does it need to be justified by questioning the use of anything but a .308 based cartridge because it does "just as good a job of killing" as a brass holding 30 more grains of powder.

My much younger brother killed his first whitetail with me when he was 14. Did it with a .300wby. Shot that thing lights out. Think he overkilled it. How silly

[MountainTi]

I was thinking of this in the youth thread.

You start them on a youth model in a suitable chambering.

They may very well buy a full size rifle in the future in the same chambering.

I know a big guy that has twice been bitten by a 7mm08. It’s more than enough gun for him!

Somebody needs to set him down at the bench and teach him how to properly hold a firearm. Back to basics. Start with a .22

[acumark]

Dead seems to be dead if the hole is in the right spot. A bigger hole doesn’t seem to make them any deader :)

Correct BUT for me when it comes to Animals that want to eat you no such thing as Too dead and always opt for more power.

[Smoky buck]

Wonder why there are African countries that require a minimum caliber? And the guys guiding for the big bears up in Alaska strongly suggesting minimum calibers of .375? These guys have seen a lot of big bears go down and far more experienced than most on here I'm guessing.

I get it, not everyone likes or can handle the "magnums". But why, time and again, does it need to be justified by questioning the use of anything but a .308 based cartridge because it does "just as good a job of killing" as a brass holding 30 more grains of powder.

My much younger brother killed his first whitetail with me when he was 14. Did it with a .300wby. Shot that thing lights out. Think he overkilled it. How silly

This has been beaten to death and personally don’t care if a guy shoots a magnum or not as long as he can do it accurately

I have seen plenty of different calibers used on “ hard to kill game and scary bears” and in the end the factor has always been if the guy was good with his rifle

Anytime I was brought out to track a grizzly or black dear someone hit and could not find I did not give a crap what caliber he was shooting but I sure asked every question possible to try to figure out where it was hit.

Shoot what you want and justify it how you please as long as you can hit where you are aiming is the main thing. But sorry my opinion comes from experience and won’t change

Dead is dead you can’t make it deader

[Smoky buck]

Correct BUT for me when it comes to Animals that want to eat you no such thing as Too dead and always opt for more power.

As long as you shoot it accurately giver

[58thecat]

Why is it that as men generally we consider some rounds as good for kids or our wives and have no issue with them hunting with them but we are not confident in the round for ourselves? with regards to our kids we say they can grow into a larger round... if the round isn't capable for hunting for a "man" why is it capable for a lady, or a kid up until he is able "to grow into something bigger"?
Just something to ponder...

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Funny after many years later the same fella who was of that mindset has settled on a 7-08.


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[EZM]

I think Dean made an important point - when recoil tolerance is a consideration, the way a gun fits someone is paramount.

I know if I shoulder a 270 in a Tikka T3 she sharply bites me a heck of lot worse compared to shooting my 300 Win Mag .... I know it's hard to believe .... but I can absolutely feel it. I have to believe it's the way each stock fits me. Same is true of youth hunters and women I think.

Saw an interesting article on Weatherby Camilla and the way many women seem to really like this rifle because of fit and seem to tolerate much larger recoil with this set up. I can totally see that. Makes sense to me.

[BigJon]

Wonder why there are African countries that require a minimum caliber? And the guys guiding for the big bears up in Alaska strongly suggesting minimum calibers of .375? These guys have seen a lot of big bears go down and far more experienced than most on here I'm guessing.

I get it, not everyone likes or can handle the "magnums". But why, time and again, does it need to be justified by questioning the use of anything but a .308 based cartridge because it does "just as good a job of killing" as a brass holding 30 more grains of powder.

My much younger brother killed his first whitetail with me when he was 14. Did it with a .300wby. Shot that thing lights out. Think he overkilled it. How silly

If I were speaking with an outfitter about booking a hunt for one of the big bears and they began to recommend .375 as a minimum, I’d likely start speaking with different outfitters.

Phil Shoemaker seems to have no problem telling clients to bring a .30-06.

Bullets are different (better) than when some African countries instituted minimum requirements. Additionally, bureaucrats make those rules, not people with experience killing animals with bullets fired from a rifle.

[marky_mark]

If I were speaking with an outfitter about booking a hunt for one of the big bears and they began to recommend .375 as a minimum, I’d likely start speaking with different outfitters.

Phil Shoemaker seems to have no problem telling clients to bring a .30-06.

Bullets are different (better) than when some African countries instituted minimum requirements. Additionally, bureaucrats make those rules, not people with experience killing animals with bullets fired from a rifle.

I can assure you that if your bringing a 30/06. Your guide is bringing a 416.
You may get the first shot, but they will be shooting right after you

[6.5 shooter]

Most people who shot bigger calibers to make up for small :). Can't figure out why whenever they shoot at a big game animals heart, they usually hit it in the :(.

Aim small, miss small. lighter recoiling rifles are easier to do this, more consistently.

[marky_mark]

Basically it comes down to what your limits are?
Do you want to be limited by your skills or your rifle?
Sure a 30/30 can kill animals. But not very well past like 150 yards
A smaller caliber like a 6.5 creedmoor allows people to build their skills and confidence with out the downside of a larger recoil
If I can shoot a .5” group with a 6.5 creedmoor and a .5” group with my 6.5 Sherman short mag. Short mag is coming with me every time
More velocity, less variables, higher chance of a responsible shot

[MountainTi]

If I were speaking with an outfitter about booking a hunt for one of the big bears and they began to recommend .375 as a minimum, I’d likely start speaking with different outfitters.

Phil Shoemaker seems to have no problem telling clients to bring a .30-06.

Bullets are different (better) than when some African countries instituted minimum requirements. Additionally, bureaucrats make those rules, not people with experience killing animals with bullets fired from a rifle.

As mentioned, someone will be backing you up....luckily.
Guessing those recommending something bigger are FAR more experienced than you. If that's all the recoil you can handle though, it is what it is.
I'll side with the experience, not an opinion

[MountainTi]

This has been beaten to death and personally don’t care if a guy shoots a magnum or not as long as he can do it accurately

I have seen plenty of different calibers used on “ hard to kill game and scary bears” and in the end the factor has always been if the guy was good with his rifle

Anytime I was brought out to track a grizzly or black dear someone hit and could not find I did not give a crap what caliber he was shooting but I sure asked every question possible to try to figure out where it was hit.

Shoot what you want and justify it how you please as long as you can hit where you are aiming is the main thing. But sorry my opinion comes from experience and won’t change

Dead is dead you can’t make it deader

We all have our capabilities and they should be stuck with

[thumper]

I've now got new dental implants in my lower right jaw - right where I plant my rifle stock! I'll be shooting a 6.5 Creedmore from here on in.... The adjustable cheek-piece on the Sako S20, and the adjustable butt pad makes for a solid ergonomic grip that sure helps to reduce felt recoil impact as well as the 6.5 Creedmore chambering. And thanks to the implants, my days of blasting away 3" shells at ducks and geese with my 12 gauge are behind me too!

[catnthehat]

I shoot pretty danged small or light recoiling cartridges for the most part, the biggest being a 280, ( but I don't shoot it that much) unless you count the BP stuff, but even those are light recoiling compared to some cartridges.
I have no issues whatsoever hunting with whatever it is I would recommend too a new shooter.
The cartridge isn't the biggest factor in selecting a rifle for someone anyway!:thinking-006:
Cat

[BigJon]

I can assure you that if your bringing a 30/06. Your guide is bringing a 416.
You may get the first shot, but they will be shooting right after you

As mentioned, someone will be backing you up....luckily.
Guessing those recommending something bigger are FAR more experienced than you. If that's all the recoil you can handle though, it is what it is.
I'll side with the experience, not an opinion

Correct, I don’t have personal experience with killing the big bear species.

I can and have handled more recoil for many rounds, I just don’t see a point to it.

When it comes to taking the advice from those that do have experience, I tend to believe someone with a track record like Mr. Shoemaker, who has written numerous times about using a .30-06 with 200 or 220? partitions as a back-up rifle for clients on large brown bears. This despite having larger rifles at his disposal. Many (or most) of the videos I’ve watched of brown bear hunts have the guide shooting after the client shoots regardless of what cartridge the clients rifle is chambered in.

There’s also something to recoil recovery for follow-up shots. No matter how well a person “handles” recoil, the greater the shove, the longer it takes to accurately be back on target.

[MountainTi]

Correct, I don’t have personal experience with killing the big bear species.

I can and have handled more recoil for many rounds, I just don’t see a point to it.

When it comes to taking the advice from those that do have experience, I tend to believe someone with a track record like Mr. Shoemaker, who has written numerous times about using a .30-06 with 200 or 220? partitions as a back-up rifle for clients on large brown bears. This despite having larger rifles at his disposal. Many (or most) of the videos I’ve watched of brown bear hunts have the guide shooting after the client shoots regardless of what cartridge the clients rifle is chambered in.

There’s also something to recoil recovery for follow-up shots. No matter how well a person “handles” recoil, the greater the shove, the longer it takes to accurately be back on target.

So you're not really sure, but won't take an outfitters advice who had more experience than you will ever know. No real world experience. Gotcha. Hope you guide is a good shot

[BigJon]

So you're not really sure, but won't take an outfitters advice who had more experience than you will ever know. No real world experience. Gotcha. Hope you guide is a good shot

I’ve brought up an outfitters advice in both my posts.

[marky_mark]

I’ve brought up an outfitters advice in both my posts.

I know if I was going on a coastal or kodiak beer hunt and me and my guide only had 30/06’s
I’d be rethinking who I booked my hunt with
Bigger is better and their is no such thing as overkill

[58thecat]

I know if I was going on a coastal or kodiak beer hunt and me and my guide only had 30/06’s
I’d be rethinking who I booked my hunt with
Bigger is better and their is no such thing as overkill

Overkill on all accounts....I kill beer with my bare hands:)

[obsessed1]

Ok so for certain there is need for larger caliber rifles for certain big game. But for the average guy going out and killing his buck every year that doesnt really play into the equation..I'd wager most hunters will never be on a hunt that "NEEDS" a round larger than 30-06,308.. or 243,6.5,270 for that matter. Even when elk or moose are on the docket.

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[BigJon]

I know if I was going on a coastal or kodiak beer hunt and me and my guide only had 30/06’s
I’d be rethinking who I booked my hunt with
Bigger is better and their is no such thing as overkill

I hear you and don’t think it’s a bad idea. Just pointing out that there are very experienced outfitters that see nothing wrong with a .30-06 for the largest of bears.

[marky_mark]

Ok so for certain there is need for larger caliber rifles for certain big game. But for the average guy going out and killing his buck every year that doesnt really play into the equation..I'd wager most hunters will never be on a hunt that "NEEDS" a round larger than 30-06,308.. or 243,6.5,270 for that matter. Even when elk or moose are on the docket.

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100%
Some people don’t want to let that bull of a lifetime walk into the bush at 400 yards because they brought a 30/30 or a 243

[marky_mark]

I hear you and don’t think it’s a bad idea. Just pointing out that there are very experienced outfitters that see nothing wrong with a .30-06 for the largest of bears.

Some people also think we should be able to shoot deer with a 223

When your 16, what do you get for a first vehicle?
Most usually don’t get a Ferrari or a corvette
They get something comfortable to refine their skills
Some people never drive anything more than a civic. It get your from point a to point b. That’s all that matters right?
But there is a lot of others that prefer what comes from something higher performance

[obsessed1]

100%

Some people don’t want to let that bull of a lifetime walk into the bush at 400 yards because they brought a 30/30 or a 243I get your point marky but at the same time 95% of the hunters out there will likely never have a bull of thier dreams walking away at 400yds..but they will blow holes in deer at 130yds with thier 300wm simply because it's a man sized cartridge.
There is a percentage of hunters who like you have hunted some of the biggest baddest places and critters. Going under gunned is silly when you have $$$$ invested in the hunt. But this this is not reality for probably 99% of hunters out there

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[BigJon]

Some people also think we should be able to shoot deer with a 223

I’ll have to dissent again here LOL.

Based on experience, I have no problem with .22 centrefires for big game.

Bullet construction is simply light years ahead of when these minimums were put into practice.

[catnthehat]

Some people also think we should be able to shoot deer with a 223
Lots of States and Provinces allow the .223 to be used and there are many successful hunters every year using it.
Personally speaking, if something is out of range or not in a good opinion I let it walk, regardless of what I am shooting, I don't care if it's a World record.
Cat

[marky_mark]

I’ll have to dissent again here LOL.

Based on experience, I have no problem with .22 centrefires for big game.

Bullet construction is simply light years ahead of when these minimums were put into practice.

I can’t think of a single advantage of hunting big game with a 22 center fire
If lower recoil is the biggest thing, then shoot with a brake on a 243 🤷*♂️
Bullet construction really hasn’t changed that much
Partitions have been around forever
The same with cup and core bullets
The big changes have been with vld type bullets which would not be your best choice for hunting with a 22 center fire anyways

[Smoky buck]

100%
Some people don’t want to let that bull of a lifetime walk into the bush at 400 yards because they brought a 30/30 or a 243

Now you are making a valid point I agree with. People need to be realistic with the limitations of their set up. If they will regret passing on an opportunity like you mentioned they need to be prepared with an appropriate set up and be capable of using it

But remember not everyone has the same goals or ability. There is plenty of hunters who could live with that animal of a lifetime walking away do to the limitations of the weapon they choose to use. Some lack the ability too

I can think of multiple opportunities where I personally I could have easily taken an amazing trophy but I chose to hunt with a muzzleloader or bow instead of a rifle. I have refused rifles in the moment even. I don’t regret my choice but I know some would never understand it

No argument from me there can be advantages to different calibers

[6.5 shooter]

100%
Some people don’t want to let that bull of a lifetime walk into the bush at 400 yards because they brought a 30/30 or a 243

Or you could bring some super mag and flinch like a *&^%^&*$ and wound that trophy of a lifetime then live with that on your conscience for the rest of your life. It is all in your perspective. I have let more then a few fine animals walk and they are some of my best memories.

If you can handle a Ferrari then so be it, but to be honest most people can barely handle their Kia's.

[Dean2]

This is exactly what is wrong with these kinds of threads, they invariably devolve into dick measuring contests. It is why I so rarely post on them any more. If guys stuck to; "this is what I use and this is what I learned from it", that would be valuable info. Once they start trying to extrapolate their experience to tell others what they should do, or that the other person's experience isn't valuable or even right, then it turns into a cluster of useless arguments that produce no resolution or benefit.

[graham1]

this is exactly what is wrong with these kinds of threads, they invariably devolve into dick measuring contests. It is why i so rarely post on them any more. If guys stuck to; "this is what i use and this is what i learned from it", that would be valuable info. Once they start trying to extrapolate their experience to tell others what they should do, or that the other person's experience isn't valuable or even right, then it turns into a cluster of useless arguments that produce no resolution or benefit.

amen

[Dick284]

This is exactly what is wrong with these kinds of threads, they invariably devolve into dick measuring contests. It is why I so rarely post on them any more. If guys stuck to; "this is what I use and this is what I learned from it", that would be valuable info. Once they start trying to extrapolate their experience to tell others what they should do, or that the other person's experience isn't valuable or even right, then it turns into a cluster of useless arguments that produce no resolution or benefit.

Yup.

[Salavee]

Dead seems to be dead if the hole is in the right spot. A bigger hole doesn’t seem to make them any deader :)

True to a point, but I think you will find that a bigger hole is much more forgiving for the vast majority of hunters who are either incapable of , or not in a position to place near MOA shots on every game animal they shoot at normal hunting distances.For those that can, the same appies.
A proper assesment would be shooting at least two dozen various sized game animals with any cartridge that produces smaller holes and another two dozen with one that is sub 3000 fps MV and leaves a much larger hole. The more data points, the better. Only then will the results prove greatly in favor of the larger dia. "hole". Dead is dead, but DRT is much better in all repects IMHO.

[Jerry D]

I would personally be very disappointed if I was on a guided hunt and the guide followed up with a second shot right afterwards because my gun was too small in their opinion.

Bow hunters must be a different breed! They must put us all to shame!

A .223 Remington is more than adequate to take down any whitetail. Straight on through the chest or broadside, through the ribs.

With any rifle. You need to know your limitations with range and shot angle. By choosing a bullet the that holds its weight. You will punch above your weight class in penetration compared to cup and core bullets or ones that fragment. The animal may run and you may need to track it 100yrds but that can happen regardless of what you shoot.

A .223 literally has no recoil and a shooter should be able to handle some recoil so I personally would start with a .243 because that’s about as light recoiling commonly available cartridge there is with good bullet selections. From there they can take a little step up into larger .308 based rounds or a larger step up into some long action rounds or magnums.

[densa44]

Just a word about the .410, I use it exclusively for upland birds. I rarely miss, not because I'm an expert like Elk or Cat but because I have a very good dog. The .410 was a gift, and it suits me just fine. Elk has a very nice 28 ga. semi and if I had to do it over that's what I would get.

As far as centerfire is concerned, the biggest animals I shoot are coyotes out to 400 M. I shoot my .243 better than anything in the safe. I'm going to try a 22-250 this year.

[Sledhead71]

This is exactly what is wrong with these kinds of threads, they invariably devolve into dick measuring contests. It is why I so rarely post on them any more. If guys stuck to; "this is what I use and this is what I learned from it", that would be valuable info. Once they start trying to extrapolate their experience to tell others what they should do, or that the other person's experience isn't valuable or even right, then it turns into a cluster of useless arguments that produce no resolution or benefit.

Agreed.

We have killed a lion, cape buffalo, water buffalo's, and most North American big game animals with stick and strings.

[Pathfinder76]

I have hunted and killed a large number and variety of big game with a considerable array of cartridges. Which include: 243, 243 AI, 6.5x55, 6.5 CM, 260 Rem, 270 wcf, 7-08, 7-08 AI, 7x57, 280 rem, 280 AI, 7mm RM, 7mm Wby, 7mm Mashburn, 308, 30-06, 300 win mag, 338 win Mag, 375 H&H, 375 Ruger and likely one or two I have forgotten.

In my honest opinion, if someone was witness to all the kills with all those cartridges they, 100% of the time, would fail to correctly guess what cartridge was used. I have some favourites, but the absolute last thing I’d worry about when hunting big game in Alberta is modern cartridge selection. And by modern, I mean cartridges developed in the last 120 years.

[sns2]

I have hunted and killed a large number and variety of big game with a considerable array of cartridges. Which include: 243, 243 AI, 6.5x55, 6.5 CM, 260 Rem, 270 wcf, 7-08, 7-08 AI, 7x57, 280 rem, 280 AI, 7mm RM, 7mm Wby, 7mm Mashburn, 308, 30-06, 300 win mag, 338 win Mag, 375 H&H, 375 Ruger and likely one or two I have forgotten.

In my honest opinion, if someone was witness to all the kills with all those cartridges they, 100% of the time, would fail to correctly guess what cartridge was used. I have some favourites, but the absolute last thing I’d worry about when hunting big game in Alberta is modern cartridge selection. And by modern, I mean cartridges developed in the last 120 years.

They should close the thread after Chuck's answer above.

[brass410]

I have hunted many years now for vermin to moose. And can only think of maybe three times when the absolute perfect shot was availible (virtually point blank less than 5 yards) add to that as a tracker I suck and hate doing it. I prefer bang drt flop type of kills. And we all know that dosent happen by chance irregardless of calibre/cartridge if your not proficient (reads practice practice from most uncomfortable positions) you are probably gonna have to let it walk or deal with wounding it. Speed/energy/diameter only kills if it hits with accuracy. This is only my theory you may substitute your own if desired.

[raised by wolves]

I own and use a variety of rifles from 223 to 375. I have harvested around 400 big game animals and although I did not track the stats on which rifle I used on each hunt, I would guess that 300+ animals were taken with a 6mm Remington and almost every kill with the little 6mm was anchored in place with one shot. I only recall a couple of runners that dumped after a brief run and only four animals that needed a second shot. Although my main rigs are 270 and 35, I love the 6mm for hunting deer and even elk.

As a teen, my hunting buddies were all on the magnum path but only a couple of them could control their canons. Most could not hit their targets as the recoil was too much.

[Salavee]

They should close the thread after Chuck's answer above.


Close it ? Why .. because Chucks response was the ultimate blanket statement ??. Surely you can do better than that !

[58thecat]

This is exactly what is wrong with these kinds of threads, they invariably devolve into dick measuring contests. It is why I so rarely post on them any more. If guys stuck to; "this is what I use and this is what I learned from it", that would be valuable info. Once they start trying to extrapolate their experience to tell others what they should do, or that the other person's experience isn't valuable or even right, then it turns into a cluster of useless arguments that produce no resolution or benefit.

welcome to AO and basically any gathering place to shoot the sheeet...this go's on in all discussions to some degree.

even though some say they did this or done that may or may not be fully truthful...it is what it is always has been and always will.

[Salavee]

I have hunted many years now for vermin to moose. And can only think of maybe three times when the absolute perfect shot was availible (virtually point blank less than 5 yards) add to that as a tracker I suck and hate doing it. I prefer bang drt flop type of kills. And we all know that dosent happen by chance irregardless of calibre/cartridge if your not proficient (reads practice practice from most uncomfortable positions) you are probably gonna have to let it walk or deal with wounding it. Speed/energy/diameter only kills if it hits with accuracy. This is only my theory you may substitute your own if desired.

I agree with your theory as do many others. From an accuracy standpoint, on a thread like this one that is dicussing cartridge lethality, I think it is best to assume all shooters are of equal shooting proficency and take it from there.. We all appear to know that a misplaced shot sometimes happens and is not a good thing regardless of the cartridge/bullet used. As this thread is about bigger vs smaller calibres on all types and sizes of Big Game, most have a pretty good idea
of which is better in thier own view and experiences. Not every cartridge developed in the last 120 years seems to cut it as some might think.

[thumper]

Us 'little dick' guys are fond of the saying "It's not the size of the sword, - but the ferocity of the attack" that matters ! Or 'accuracy' of the attack - as the case may be ....

[marky_mark]

Or you could bring some super mag and flinch like a *&^%^&*$ and wound that trophy of a lifetime then live with that on your conscience for the rest of your life. It is all in your perspective. I have let more then a few fine animals walk and they are some of my best memories.

If you can handle a Ferrari then so be it, but to be honest most people can barely handle their Kia's.

Not everyone that shoots a 300 has a flinch and not everyone that shoots a 6.5 is a marksmen

What makes me laugh about these threads. Is the guys who are the biggest advocates of these small cartridges, yet they valiantly oppose a modern designed muzzle brake. Im not talking the cheapo radial brakes they give you when you buy a rifle. I’m talking a well designed directional brake that pushes the blast away from you. They cost around $200 a piece so I know a lot of the complainers have never touched one 🤷*♂️

[kw12]

Not everyone that shoots a 300 has a flinch and not everyone that shoots a 6.5 is a marksmen

What makes me laugh about these threads. Is the guys who are the biggest advocates of these small cartridges, yet they valiantly oppose a modern designed muzzle brake. Im not talking the cheapo radial brakes they give you when you buy a rifle. I’m talking a well designed directional brake that pushes the blast away from you. They cost around $200 a piece so I know a lot of the complainers have never touched one 🤷*♂️

I have a .300 win mag that I shoot quite comfortably. Mind you it has a ks arms muzzle break on it but shoot it with zero issues and I’m not a big guy. I also shoot a 6.5 creedmoor and I am far from a marksmen so you hit the nail on the head with that comment lol

[catnthehat]

I have a .300 win mag that I shoot quite comfortably. Mind you it has a ks arms muzzle break on it but shoot it with zero issues and I’m not a big guy. I also shoot a 6.5 creedmoor and I am far from a marksmen so you hit the nail on the head with that comment lol
I have owned and shot some rifles chambered in VERY big cartridges over the years, including a Sako TRGS 33S in lapua and a 450 Ackley magnum , as well as several 375's.None of these hunting rifles ever had brakes on them. I simply can't anymore shoot heavy recoiling rifles anymore, in fact I was off shooting for over a year at one time, even holding my 9 pound match rifle prone was a nogo.
This was because of nerve damage in my neck and shoulder area from my trade over the years ( and a few wrecks didn't help)

As far as brakes go, I regularly work on braked rifles for guys , I simply do not like them, and doo not really need one for the cartridges I shoot but then I don't own a lever action repeater either for the same reason.
I did buy back a match rifle that I originally sold, that had a PTG braked installed on it after, but sold the barrel because I use it as an iron sighted match rifle and the two do not work well together.
Cat

[roper1]

My observation......the Magnumitis boys aren't the problem.

We see under-gunned everywhere. Fella pulling a 97' toy-hauler with an F150.

If we're aged or infirm or just don't like recoil, so be it. Don't lump large caliber choice with poor shooting. For years, I shot an '06. Worked great. As I got older & a bit more money, and less hunting time, I wanted to make sure. Regularly shoot 140lb deer with a 300. The butchers on here tell us time & again less wasted meat. Wife & myself butcher ours, same observation.

Confidence because the shot might be longer, or the game a true wall-hanger. Evening, have to work tomorrow. I bought a beauty .243 off an older friend, hunted lots, he just said too many next day recoveries.

CONCEPT. There are minimum caliber requirements for hunting in most jurisdictions.

Most guides/outfitters will ask for 30 cal minimum, but bring the biggest gun you can shoot comfortably.

[58thecat]

I have known a few guides over the years and they would have spare rifles, 270,30-06,243.....reasoning was that clients seem to drop a poop load of cash on a hunt, show up out of shape and totally over gunned for their abilities.
So at the table a few shots and if the guide didn’t like what he saw they would hand them one of theirs....ohhh and many clients left the big boom stick as a gift.

When I was up in Alaska believe it or not 30-06 was used extensively....why...very shootable and capeable.

[catnthehat]

My observation......the Magnumitis boys aren't the problem.

We see under-gunned everywhere. Fella pulling a 97' toy-hauler with an F150.

If we're aged or infirm or just don't like recoil, so be it. Don't lump large caliber choice with poor shooting. For years, I shot an '06. Worked great. As I got older & a bit more money, and less hunting time, I wanted to make sure. Regularly shoot 140lb deer with a 300. The butchers on here tell us time & again less wasted meat. Wife & myself butcher ours, same observation.

Confidence because the shot might be longer, or the game a true wall-hanger. Evening, have to work tomorrow. I bought a beauty .243 off an older friend, hunted lots, he just said too many next day recoveries.

CONCEPT. There are minimum caliber requirements for hunting in most jurisdictions.

Most guides/outfitters will ask for 30 cal minimum, but bring the biggest gun you can shoot comfortably.

A quick search shows that there are only about 10 States that do not allow the .223 to used for big game, but there may be more.
I think B.C., Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and New Brunswick allow it as well.
Not that I would use one as a specific big game rifle, but there are some .22 centerfires that I would have no issue with .

I really think t matters about how well a person shoots, not what they shoot.
Cat

[Pathfinder76]

My observation......the Magnumitis boys aren't the problem.

We see under-gunned everywhere. Fella pulling a 97' toy-hauler with an F150.

If we're aged or infirm or just don't like recoil, so be it. Don't lump large caliber choice with poor shooting. For years, I shot an '06. Worked great. As I got older & a bit more money, and less hunting time, I wanted to make sure. Regularly shoot 140lb deer with a 300. The butchers on here tell us time & again less wasted meat. Wife & myself butcher ours, same observation.

Confidence because the shot might be longer, or the game a true wall-hanger. Evening, have to work tomorrow. I bought a beauty .243 off an older friend, hunted lots, he just said too many next day recoveries.

CONCEPT. There are minimum caliber requirements for hunting in most jurisdictions.

Most guides/outfitters will ask for 30 cal minimum, but bring the biggest gun you can shoot comfortably.

I know a lot of guides and outfitters and have been one (licensed). I’m struggling to think of a single one that recommends a 30 cal minimum. But I do know that most of them are not gun guys and really have only a rudimentary knowledge of bullets and cartridges.

I also know of a pile, a pile, of game killed with a 243 with zero recovery issues.

[Smoky buck]

This is a go no where thread and some really broad claims regarding outfitter mins that definitely do not apply to all. Also very broad claims regarding what is required for some game

I am really tempted to send a link of this thread to some of the ex grizzly guides I know in BC and listen to them laugh. 2 have plenty of experience with the big coastal bears comparable to Alaskan browns. The funny thing is all agree they are ***** cat’s compared to the mountain bears and no harder to put down. It would probably surprise some what a few of these guys preferred as their back up rifle.

You want some extra bone crushing power and retain it at longer range with a larger chunk of lead I can understand why you want a magnum but to think it’s a must or should be strived for by everyone I would not agree. If this is your thing and you shoot it well giver

This doesn’t mean try to take down an elephant with a BB gun either. But a size appropriate caliber a guy shoots well is often all that is needed.

The caliber debates never make it anywhere and have heard all kinds of crazy opinions over the years.

[MountainTi]

100%
Some people don’t want to let that bull of a lifetime walk into the bush at 400 yards because they brought a 30/30 or a 243

Meh. Good chance they will still send a 100 gr spire point in that direction. Results may vary

[Smoky buck]

Meh. Good chance they will still send a 100 gr spire point in that direction. Results may vary

No doubt there are those who make poor choices regardless of caliber

[KegRiver]

This is a go no where thread and some really broad claims regarding outfitter mins that definitely do not apply to all. Also very broad claims regarding what is required for some game

I am really tempted to send a link of this thread to some of the ex grizzly guides I know in BC and listen to them laugh. 2 have plenty of experience with the big coastal bears comparable to Alaskan browns. The funny thing is all agree they are ***** cat’s compared to the mountain bears and no harder to put down. It would probably surprise some what a few of these guys preferred as their back up rifle.

You want some extra bone crushing power and retain it at longer range with a larger chunk of lead I can understand why you want a magnum but to think it’s a must or should be strived for by everyone I would not agree. If this is your thing and you shoot it well giver

This doesn’t mean try to take down an elephant with a BB gun either. But a size appropriate caliber a guy shoots well is often all that is needed.

The caliber debates never make it anywhere and have heard all kinds of crazy opinions over the years.

I heard of a guy who shot and killed a Moose with a pellet gun.

“A moose that is attacking you — or your family, or your dog — you can defend yourself and kill that moose, but you have to be willing to defend your actions for a DLP (defense of life or property kill),” said Larry Lewis, wildlife technician with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. “But, a moose just being in the yard isn’t a justifiable reason to kill it.”

Jimmy Dean Rice, of Soldotna, found this out the hard way after being charged by Alaska Wildlife Troopers for a Class A Misdemeanor for illegally taking a moose during a closed season, after he allegedly shot at a moose with a pellet gun this summer.

With a court case pending, Dean Rice declined to comment on the situation. According to a report filed with the Kenai District Court, at about 11:30 p.m. July 16, Rice used a Beeman Model R9 pellet gun — a .177-caliber firearm that shoots at approximately 1,700 feet per second — to shoot a moose that was acting “weird.”

According to court documents, Rice said he planned to shoot the moose in its “ass” to just scare it away, but after shooting the moose it ran a few yards, fell down and died. Large amounts of blood were reported coming from the moose’s nostril and mouth.

Trooper investigation found the dead moose to be approximately 20 yards from Rice’s residence in the tree line, and according to Rice’s own statement the moose did not pose a threat to life or property at the time of the shooting. Troopers noted that Rice’s yard was well manicured with flowers and bushes, which might have drawn in the animal.

Rice stated to troopers that a number of things could have happened to the moose prior to him shooting at it, but added that, while he had “no intention of killing the moose,” he was likely the “culprit,” and added that killing a moose with one shot from a pellet gun qualified him as either the luckiest or unluckiest person in the world.

I do not offer an opinion as to authenticity of this report.

[marky_mark]

I heard of a guy who shot and killed a Moose with a pellet gun.



I do not offer an opinion as to authenticity of this report.

More people win the lottery every week

[Savage Bacon]

I heard of a guy who shot and killed a Moose with a pellet gun.







I do not offer an opinion as to authenticity of this report.I didn't read the whole thread so I'm not sure if it was mentioned but didn't some groups used to shoot moose in the stomach with a .22 and just wait for them to die?

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[marky_mark]

People choose calibers and Cartridges for a million different reasons
What’s good for you, may not be good for me
It’s just the way it is
Peoples experiences dictate what they deem adequate
And everyone has different experiences
Plus there is so many different options and choices

[spoiledsaskhunter]

......differences in opinion.

if we all thought alike, there would be only one caliber and we would all use it.

this is just about a whole bunch of old women(men) arguing. no solution/consensus will EVER be reached.

[catnthehat]

I didn't read the whole thread so I'm not sure if it was mentioned but didn't some groups used to shoot moose in the stomach with a .22 and just wait for them to die?

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I know od four trappers ( all native ) that shot moose and two bears with a .22LR and they shot them in the ear not the stomach.
The fact is that the .22LR was the rifle that was carried 90% of the time unless a person was actually moose hunting .
Cat

[Salavee]

I’ll have to dissent again here LOL.

Based on experience, I have no problem with .22 centrefires for big game.

Bullet construction is simply light years ahead of when these minimums were put into practice.


Based on your experience it sure would be enlightening if you explained just how todays modern bullets are "light years ahead" of the older style C&C and Cor-Lokd bullets of days gone by. With the exception of todays Mono's and maybe a few Bergers, it seems to me that the older bullet designs and construction are still holding up pretty well.

[obsessed1]

Wow this thread derailed quickly....the original post was not about if you like or want or need a big caliber but rather why we think small calibers are only good for kids and women. And why we allow both our kids and our wives hunt right along side us using these calibers and we accept them as decent for the job yet we need a 300wm. And as soon as a child is bigger he should shoot a bigger caliber. Because the one hes using now only works for kids and women.....reality is the legal rifle one learns on is likely more than sufficient for 95% of an everyday hunter...not someone paying $$$$ to hunt elephants....the vast majority of hunters will never be in that position.

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[BigJon]

Jacket and core hardness, jacket taper/thickness, overall weight of the base of a bullet relative to it’s total weight have all evolved over the years to produce a better bullet with better terminal performance.

Bullets that have a mechanical feature have also evolved. Some bullets in the partition line up have had the “partition” moved to a different location. Same with the “interlock” ring on Hornady interlocks.

Manufacturers will make changes after years of data indicate it may be a good idea.

Using light years to describe the changes to jacketed bullets is an overstatement on my part however the changes have been significant and have made bullets better.

The development of accurate, reliably expanding mono-metals has been huge and appears to be continuing to get better though we get shut out on much of that here in Canada.

[obsessed1]

As a side note....what percentage of hunters ever go on a guided dangerous game hunt? I'd bet it's a small percentage. Again what percent of hunters hunt in a place where actual chance of encountering a dangerous game animal while hunting? There's an argument for large calibers...moose, elk, g bears ect but again such a small percentage of hunters actually hunt these game species compared to the millions of deer hunters

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[marky_mark]

Wow this thread derailed quickly....the original post was not about if you like or want or need a big caliber but rather why we think small calibers are only good for kids and women. And why we allow both our kids and our wives hunt right along side us using these calibers and we accept them as decent for the job yet we need a 300wm. And as soon as a child is bigger he should shoot a bigger caliber. Because the one hes using now only works for kids and women.....reality is the legal rifle one learns on is likely more than sufficient for 95% of an everyday hunter...not someone paying $$$$ to hunt elephants....the vast majority of hunters will never be in that position.

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Simple way to explain my opinion
6.5 creedmoor 143 eldx 2700 fps at the muzzle
6.5 prc 143 eldx 2960fps muzzle 2660fps at 200 yards
26 nosler 140gr accubond 3412fps muzzle 2670fps at 400 yards

So what ever the 6.5 creedmoor can do, these other cartridges just do it better

[marky_mark]

As a side note....what percentage of hunters ever go on a guided dangerous game hunt? I'd bet it's a small percentage. Again what percent of hunters hunt in a place where actual chance of encountering a dangerous game animal while hunting? There's an argument for large calibers...moose, elk, g bears ect but again such a small percentage of hunters actually hunt these game species compared to the millions of deer hunters

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This is a whole different topic

[catnthehat]

Simple way to explain my opinion
6.5 creedmoor 143 eldx 2700 fps at the muzzle
6.5 prc 143 eldx 2960fps muzzle 2660fps at 200 yards
26 nosler 140gr accubond 3412fps muzzle 2670fps at 400 yards

So what ever the 6.5 creedmoor can do, these other cartridges just do it better

There is another aspect of those cartridges and that is availability factory ammo and available brass for those that do .
Many people do not hand load, and if they do , there can be issues getting brass for the PRC and thd 26 Nosler.
Not to mention the recoil fact of the last two.
Personally speaking for a hunting rifle of the three I like the PRC the best
Cat

[marky_mark]

There is another aspect of those cartridges and that is availability factory ammo and available brass for those that do .
Many people do not hand load, and if they do , there can be issues getting brass for the PRC and thd 26 Nosler.
Not to mention the recoil fact of the last two.
Personally speaking for a hunting rifle of the three I like the PRC the best
Cat

Prc brass is being made by lapua now which is great
But I agree with you 100%

I’m just saying you may start someone with a 6.5 creedmoor. It’s works, but there is definitely an advantage to bumping up the velocity. As your skills improve and knowledge increases. Your personal limits may increase more than what that starter rifle is capable of. How many people buy a quality rifle as their first rifle either? Most are buying an axis or something like that. So their are usually upgrading that first rifle anyways 🤷*♂️

[catnthehat]

Always lots of options , yup.
I wouldn't start a new hunter on a 6.5Prc though. But that is just me .
Cat

[Battle Rat]

How about a bigger hole in the right spot?

Nothing beats a big hole going in and a big hole coming out.

[6.5 shooter]

Simple way to explain my opinion
6.5 creedmoor 143 eldx 2700 fps at the muzzle
6.5 prc 143 eldx 2960fps muzzle 2660fps at 200 yards
26 nosler 140gr accubond 3412fps muzzle 2670fps at 400 yards

So what ever the 6.5 creedmoor can do, these other cartridges just do it better

Velocity is not always your friend especially up close and personal. Yes at distances over 300 yards or so velocity will do more but most people never shoot beyond 200-250 yards so the point is moot.

MOST big game bullets are designed to work at moderate velocities not at hyper velocity. Mono bullet might be the exception but not conventional bullets per say.

I have chased the velocity rabbit and the returns were marginal at best.

[KegRiver]

Wow this thread derailed quickly....the original post was not about if you like or want or need a big caliber but rather why we think small calibers are only good for kids and women. And why we allow both our kids and our wives hunt right along side us using these calibers and we accept them as decent for the job yet we need a 300wm. And as soon as a child is bigger he should shoot a bigger caliber. Because the one hes using now only works for kids and women.....reality is the legal rifle one learns on is likely more than sufficient for 95% of an everyday hunter...not someone paying $$$$ to hunt elephants....the vast majority of hunters will never be in that position.

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The answer to that question is very simple and will never be accepted by the self appointed experts.

[obsessed1]

This is a whole different topicExcept that the reasons given for caliber choice is based on this....at least that's what is being argued about in this thread. We have guides in Africa choice calibers, G bear guide calibers, elk at 400yds ect...issues that the vast majority of hunters never have.. so choosing a caliber need based off these for the average guy is kinda silly

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[Faststeel]

What to me always get missed in lighter, lower recoil discussions is 250-3000, 257 Roberts, 300 Savage, 6.5x55, 32 Special, 30-30, 25-40 and a host of really effective rounds that have very low recoil while still producing great results on game. 95% of game is shot under 200 yards, by new hunters or experienced ones. A larger diameter bullet moving a little slower is no real handicap out to 250 yards. It isn't like the trajectory changes all that much and being under 8 lbs of recoil has very large benefits.

Couldn't agree more Dean , but finding a 250 savage, or a 257 Bob can be rather challenging

[marky_mark]

Except that the reasons given for caliber choice is based on this....at least that's what is being argued about in this thread. We have guides in Africa choice calibers, G bear guide calibers, elk at 400yds ect...issues that the vast majority of hunters never have.. so choosing a caliber need based off these for the average guy is kinda silly

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I thought the original question was why do people think that they need a larger caliber rifle. When we start new hunters off with a lighter recoiling, smaller diameter which is deemed adequate?

Pretty simple
Like it or not you get higher performance
If you want it or need it, that’s up to you

[Salavee]

As a side note....what percentage of hunters ever go on a guided dangerous game hunt? I'd bet it's a small percentage. Again what percent of hunters hunt in a place where actual chance of encountering a dangerous game animal while hunting? There's an argument for large calibers...moose, elk, g bears ect but again such a small percentage of hunters actually hunt these game species compared to the millions of deer hunters

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I think you nailed it. The largest percentage of BG hunters in N A are shooting Deer. Thats why any conversation of this type is usually biased to the smaller sized Big Game, and thus to the smaller calibers. There is certainly no doubt that they are right.

Change the geography and species a bit and I think you would see a big change in the conversation... but always with the usual few exceptions .