Another poacher caught at lake sundance

[Sundancefisher]

Another poacher caught at Lake Sundance Calgary...

Today I had the misfortune of seeing someone I knew and talked to and helped to catch trout and perch turn a blind side to proper morals and instead join the ranks of the despised poachers!:mad3::mad3::mad3::mad3:

I saw him acting suspicious by...

1) keeping a constant eye on the office.
2) when catching a trout...fighting it with a straight rod, office can't see him catching a trout.
3) tip under held under water...so there is no trout splashing
4) hiding the trout with his body at all times while bagging it and hiding it in his seat.
5) when the office went over to check on him he quickly put one trout in his jacket to hide it.

How can people be so absolutely greedy and sad and sneaky and thieving all at once.

Sadly...catching someone I knew has really hurt my feelings. When you like someone and trust someone...you don't expect them to steal from you.

As a resident...we pay fees to go towards things like lake stocking. Stealing extra fish...reprehensible... When ever I see him again...he will get an ear full...

Anyways...when he got to the office he refused to be fully searched...stated he did not kill over his limit. Tried to lie to my face but could not keep eye contact. Fortunately...they were alerted to him stealing fish the previous day. He was seen with an extra fish in his coat. The office saw him on the binoculars landing two fish, I saw him clearly kill two and try to hide one in his jacket.

Therefore 1 YEAR SUSPENSION FROM FISHING AT OUR LAKE

For any other Lake Sundance residents...keep an eye out...especially this winter. Report the person to the office...keep the number on your cell. Talk to people you meet fishing and tell them you are over joyed the penalties have been increased for stealing/poaching.

Hopefully the guy does not go poach elsewhere!

Signed

Sad and disappointed with SOME people...

[SCRUB]

What is with these guys down there, take what you can eat and come back once you have finished you 2 that you are allowed, Is 1 extra fish really worth it?????

[BBJTKLE&FISHINGADVENTURES]

Man I dont get what people are thinking .

[Drano]

Man I dont get what people are thinking .


X2:wave::wave:

[plinker]

This is why I hunt or fish only with my family! I know what you are feeling:) as I have had friends that I used to hunt and fish with do things just like that. You did the right thing for our resources. Proud of ya bud!!!:)

[big]

jeez. you take this way too seriously. Its like your talking about a drug bust or something

[WayneChristie]

give them the choice of a 100 dollar fine or lifetime ban for a first offence, then you can replace the ones they killed.

[DANOMAN]

hey big this is serious they are taking away mine and others resources obviously big you must be one of those guys that dont care about the resources,,,,,,,, i am on the watch so if you do something illegal while i am fishing and i see you you can bet and be sure i would dial the report a poacher number beware never know whos watching you thru binoculars .........:mad3:

[goldscud]

Hey big, why should we turn a blind eye while someone steals from everyone? It makes more sense to remove the problem rather than ignore it. If you can't trust someone with a small thing, why would you trust him with something more important?

[Sundancefisher]

give them the choice of a 100 dollar fine or lifetime ban for a first offence, then you can replace the ones they killed.

Getting the money is hard...becomes more of a legal battle. Plus I don't think anyone is kidding themselves that this was his first time. He was very slick and efficient and well practiced.

He complained about the limits being reduced from 48 to 24 per year...but did not complain that his 24 a year are now 5-10 pounders instead of the 12- 14 inchers we used to stock.

I would like to hope he will learn and think about it and tell his other poacher buddies that the 1 year ban hurts. He was an ice fishermen so I strongly suspect that his being caught probably saved 50 - 100 trout for others to catch. Given we stocked about 1500 trout this year...his kill would of had significant impact.

Big...if you do not lay out a deterrent...these guys will not only keep doing it...but encourage others to do it cause he gets away with it, will become embolden and start killing even more. I would love to hear what you think about poaching in general? Do you care? You have not posted much so let's give you the benefit of the doubt that you were no just trying to belittle anti poaching efforts in general. Let's hope your post 6 adds value to the discussion and forum.

[hal53]

jeez. you take this way too seriously. Its like your talking about a drug bust or something
BIG???...sounds like he's suffering from an affliction that has nothing to do with "BIG", they are stealing and poaching..and u can't see a problem?????....SHEESH!!!!!!

[baitfisher83]

dont mine him, he's new and tried to start crap with me an another member, some people are just too stupid to realize that they wont get away with everything forever, glad to see he got caught....so when are you planning this ice fishing thing?

[Joe Fehr]

Poaching is great. Like poached eggs, wine poached salmon is devine :love: Anyhow this is just sad after the work you have gone through to clean up the illegal perch that were stocked and given these people a lake to fish in. Why would you jepordize a beautiful thing like that for an extra fish. Lakes like that I would do catch and release on for 99% of the time just so everyone can catch a fish.

Maybe have it so that people have to bring a kid fishing with them to the lake. Might make them a little more responsible.

[Geezle]

jeez. you take this way too seriously. Its like your talking about a drug bust or something

It's all about respect.......:rolleyes:

[blackpheasant]

hey big this is serious they are taking away mine and others resources obviously big you must be one of those guys that dont care about the resources,,,,,,,, i am on the watch so if you do something illegal while i am fishing and i see you you can bet and be sure i would dial the report a poacher number beware never know whos watching you thru binoculars .........:mad3:

Oh great lets all spy on one another...Big Brother is watching..:lol::lol::lol: and no I'm not a poacher and care deeply about our resources and the enviroment....:cool:

[Badback]

Good job Sundance......Can they have their picture hung (8 X 12) up in the office stating banned...That might deter some of the other poarchers like our favorite old grandma that laughs when ever you ask her how many fish she's caught....

I want to say thanks to the forum members that show support to reporting a poacher...Geezle summed it up "It's all about respect".....

[Fishfinder]

jeez. you take this way too seriously. Its like your talking about a drug bust or something

Wow. U r stupid! IP will b tracked:evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin: The best catch of all is snaring a poacher:evilgrin:

[Sundancefisher]

Wow. U r stupid! IP will b tracked:evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin: The best catch of all is snaring a poacher:evilgrin:

It is a good feeling knowing that some child can probably catch his first ever fish this winter cause there will just be a few extra trout left unkilled by poachers...

Managing any fishery is hard when people try to live outside the rules or decide they are above the law...and more important than everyone else.

[Fishfinder]

It is a good feeling knowing that some child can probably catch his first ever fish this winter cause there will just be a few fish unkilled by poachers...

Managing any fishery is hard when people try to live outside the rules or decide they are above the law...and more important than everyone else.

word bird!

[Sundancefisher]

Good job Sundance......Can they have their picture hung (8 X 12) up in the office stating banned...That might deter some of the other poarchers like our favorite old grandma that laughs when ever you ask her how many fish she's caught....

I want to say thanks to the forum members that show support to reporting a poacher...Geezle summed it up "It's all about respect".....

This was an older grandpa aged guy... That actually hurts more from the respect side. Not a snot nosed young adult lippy male...but a guy that befriended me, asked for my help and effectively was stabbing me in the back as a result. Everyone starts off with my respect...to lose it...well it is extremely difficult to get it back...not that this guy probably cared...

[Fishfinder]

This was an older grandpa aged guy... That actually hurts more from the respect side. Not a snot nosed young adult lippy male...but a guy that befriended me, asked for my help and effectively was stabbing me in the back as a result. Everyone starts off with my respect...to lose it...well it is extremely difficult to get it back...not that this guy probably cared...

Bummer. Some older folk r stuck in their ways n cannot see further unfortunately... not that it gives em excuse! Poaching is poaching! some people will never learn. Sucs he was a pal of urs:cry: Well, on a good note, He will not poach again!! or will he?

[big]

Wow. U r stupid! IP will b tracked:evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin: The best catch of all is snaring a poacher:evilgrin:

what? i never said i was a poacher. All i'm saying is sundance is taking this too seriously...Go ahead, track my ip, you'll be the one looking like an idiot when you find nothing in my freezer

[big]

hey big this is serious they are taking away mine and others resources obviously big you must be one of those guys that dont care about the resources,,,,,,,, i am on the watch so if you do something illegal while i am fishing and i see you you can bet and be sure i would dial the report a poacher number beware never know whos watching you thru binoculars .........:mad3:

creepy

[Geezle]

what? i never said i was a poacher. All i'm saying is sundance is taking this too seriouslyr

Like I said before, it's very much a respect thing.

Also, looking at how much it costs the residents there to stock the lake, one could also easily equate it to theft.


It's even more unfortunate that it's somebody that Sundance had befriended and helped catch trout in the first place. It hurts when you trust somebody and then they go behind your back like this.

I like the idea that somebody else posted about putting up a large picture in the office of any poachers who have been caught...public embarrassment is often a good deterrent.

[Beazer]

Problem is that it's illegal.

[Fishfinder]

what? i never said i was a poacher. All i'm saying is sundance is taking this too seriously...Go ahead, track my ip, you'll be the one looking like an idiot when you find nothing in my freezer

I never said u were either. But the dude we take "too seriously" IS poaching! I aint gonna track u bud ( bigger fish to fry) and I am sure there is no fish in ur freezer:lol::lol: If I managed a lake n caught a friend poaching from it, I would kick the **** outta him but that's just me. I think Sun is being too nice:p

[standswithabow]

NO, the problem is greed. Illegal is what happens when too many are greedy and the resource is in trouble, then another law is passed to control the masses because of a few bad apples. We need less laws and more personal accountability to our resources. If we policed ourselves and eachother better, poaching would not be illegal, but immoral, (and more demoralizing if your peers cought you.)

It's like wearing a seatbelt if there is a cop in view....who are you accountable to first ? is it you, your family, your peers, or is it big government behind the big badge, just waiting to steal from you, your family and your peers ? I agree, wear the seatbelt, but you gotta ask yourseelf why you are wearing it.

Is common sense on the endangered list yet ?:ashamed:

[Freedom55]

So what about the rest of the lakes in the province? The ones that aren't blessed with a full time security service. Who's minding that store? If a small percentage of outdoor sportsmen cannot be trusted with the regulations, then what of the thousands of,shall we say, not-so-sporting anglers in the province who are not so scrutinized as the ones at Lake Sundance.
No offence meant Sundance, but I have been noticing this summer that there is more and more flirting with the boundaries of the rules of decorum. Younger people posting their message of youthful exuberance. Tackle companies that fuel this fire with loud boistertous ads featuring boats that travel 50mph and high wire excitment on the casting deck. Spend more money, catch more and bigger fish goes the theory. Coupled with a complete disregard for other peoples rights in a frantic attempt to achieve their own and an attempt to twist loosely worded regulations into something else than the spirit of the law, it's no wonder that the face of fishing is changing for the worse.
Or has it become more of a subsistance activity for some people in this socio-economic climate? Who knows?
All I'm on about is that fishing regulations have to be enforced by the individual on 99.5% of the fishable waters around us. Not just the ones that catch our fancy, but every word written in the guide. We've got to be 'Sundancefisher and office' of these waters. Please. Here endeth the sermon.

[Wazzy]

I live in Lake Summerside in South Edmonton (going on three years now) which sounds much the same as Lake Sundance, although to my knowledge we do not have a problem with perch (I havent seen one yet). I flyfish this lake regularily and am able to consistently catch rainbows anywhere between two and five pounds with a few larger ones present. I have taken numerous family members and friends out to enjoy the fabulous fishing opportunities this lake has to offer. It would appear the same applies here: residents pay an annual fee which goes toward stocking, maintenance of the beach, upkeep of the facility etc. If what I'm reading is correct, Lake Sundance has a 1 fish /day limit which I think is fair, previously there was a three fish per day limit on trout from Lake Summerside (up to a maximum of 24/month/resident) which has recently been reduced to a zero limit (C&R only). Now, for the most part I release all the trout I catch here, however I don't mind keeping the odd one either (when its allowed). With that said, I am not opposed to residents being allowed to keep a few fish here and there. Heres why: First of all, this is a private, stocked, put and take fishery which residents pay good money annually to be able to enjoy. The fish have no chance of reproduction and will eventually die off assuming they are not caught and kept. Secondly, if there is a zero limit on trout and they continue to stock the lake annually, this will result in less feed in the lake (due to the overpopulation of fish) reducing the ability to support large growth rates. In turn this results in a plethora of small trout...no more consistent 2-5 pounders. When I questioned management on why the sudden change to strict C&R, the reply I got was they didn't have an effective means of keeping track of how many fish were being harvested, therefore not knowing how many to replace in the spring? They also said there has been a problem with poachers (mainly construction workers and contractors jumping the fence after work) and keeping trout at will. Now my question is, if this is truly the case, how does making the Lake strictly C&R for paying rersidents have any effect on those who break the rules? These people are breaking the rules the minute they jump the fence. Sundance, do you guys have a proven method for keeping track of fish caught by residents? If so what stipulations and regulations are in place to do so? It gets to be a sticky situation in dealing with private lakes because really the only thing you can do is "ban them from fishing" for a period of time. Obviously Provincial Regulations do not apply so F&W has no jurisdiction and you would be hard pressed to convince the local Police to lay a "theft" charge as somebody previously mentioned due to the fact the "offender" can likely prove he "paid for" the stocking. Also, Summerside also has a "bait ban" and "barbless hooks" requirement which is difficult to enforce. What should the penalty be for a paying resident that is fishing with bait or barbed hooks? A one year fishing ban? Food for thought...

[Walleyes]

Just a question.. This fellow couldn't be charged under the provincial law could he ?? If I am not mistaken this over blown fish bowl is a private pond no ?? Some have stated that he is breaking the law,, and that he is stealing from the rest of us and so on.. First off he is breaking a " rule " not a law.. Second yes he is stealing but not from everyone just the people that fish and contribute to this aquarium right ???

And technically speaking he is not a poacher. A poacher is someone that breaks the law. Again He didn't break the law just a rule..

Just my thoughts...

[elkhunter11]

Second yes he is stealing but not from everyone just the people that fish and contribute to this aquarium right ???

Then charge him with theft of private property.

[Walleyes]

Then charge him with theft of private property.

Exactly. Mind you it has been stated that if he has contributed money to the program then in a way He also owns the fish so how can he be charged with stealing ???

I say just boot him out of the sand box for not playing nice...

[Fishfinder]

Just a question.. This fellow couldn't be charged under the provincial law could he ?? If I am not mistaken this over blown fish bowl is a private pond no ?? Some have stated that he is breaking the law,, and that he is stealing from the rest of us and so on.. First off he is breaking a " rule " not a law.. Second yes he is stealing but not from everyone just the people that fish and contribute to this aquarium right ???

And technically speaking he is not a poacher. A poacher is someone that breaks the law. Again He didn't break the law just a rule..

Just my thoughts...

Respect, ethics, principles...do these mean nothing to u? Poaching is poaching. period. First off, he IS breaking the law, Second, who the **** cares where and what he is stealing, it is still theft:confused: I cannot believe some of the crap I read on here!!!:mad3::mad3:
Just my thoughts...

[Walleyes]

Hey relax and take a pill.. I am not agreeing with what the guy did but just setting some of the statements straight... And no He isn't breaking the law,, if he is what law.. Under who's jurisdiction ??? Tell you what go to the F & G and see if they will charge him.. Yes stealing is stealing and thats just plain wrong so like I said kick him out of the sand box for not playing nice..

[The Fisherman Guy]

This was an older grandpa aged guy... That actually hurts more from the respect side. Not a snot nosed young adult lippy male...

Stereotyping can be a dangerous game. This incident proves that poachers/rule breakers come in all ages, and races. Perhaps it's only the snot nosed young adult lippy male are the ones who are caught more frequently.

[Fishfinder]

Hey relax and take a pill.. I am not agreeing with what the guy did but just setting some of the statements straight... And no He isn't breaking the law,, if he is what law.. Under who's jurisdiction ??? Tell you what go to the F & G and see if they will charge him.. Yes stealing is stealing and thats just plain wrong so like I said kick him out of the sand box for not playing nice..

lol. K i got a little excited there I admit, I jus have a hard time turning a blind eye to poaching. Is theft not against the law anymore?

[Wazzy]

lol. K i got a little excited there I admit, I jus have a hard time turning a blind eye to poaching. Is theft not against the law anymore?

Definition of Theft: (S. 322 Criminal Code of Canada)

1(a) to deprive, temporarily or absolutely, the owner of it, or a person who has a special property or interest in it, of the thing or of his property or interest in it;

I am nnot condoning this behavior, however as stated previously, if he is a PAYING RESIDENT how do you determine who is the "owner". Everyone who pays a resident fee "owns" the fish according to the Criminal Code. The only way theft could be pursued is if the offender was NOT a paying resident. This is why private lakes are such a sticky subject. I agree with Walleyes, he is simply breaking a rule, and thus it is up to the Lake Sundance Management to revoke his fishing priviledges. He is not guilty of anything under law. Of course this would be different if he was fishing a Provincial waterbdy.

[Fishfinder]

Definition of Theft: (S. 322 Criminal Code of Canada)

1(a) to deprive, temporarily or absolutely, the owner of it, or a person who has a special property or interest in it, of the thing or of his property or interest in it;

I am nnot condoning this behavior, however as stated previously, if he is a PAYING RESIDENT how do you determine who is the "owner". Everyone who pays a resident fee "owns" the fish according to the Criminal Code. The only way theft could be pursued is if the offender was NOT a paying resident. This is why private lakes are such a sticky subject. I agree with Walleyes, he is simply breaking a rule, and thus it is up to the Lake Sundance Management to revoke his fishing priviledges. He is not guilty of anything under law. Of course this would be different if he was fishing a Provincial waterbdy.

Hmm, i c ur point. Bummer for the community. Now that I think about it, I'd rather govern his actions personally rather than bring the law into it anyway. In my books he is stealing from the community and if the law cannot do anything about it then I would. but thats jus me.

[Wazzy]

Hmm, i c ur point. Bummer for the community. Now that I think about it, I'd rather govern his actions personally rather than bring the law into it anyway. In my books he is stealing from the community and if the law cannot do anything about it then I would. but thats jus me.


Then you would be the Criminal. Assault is a charge the Police would no doubt have a problem laying. I'm just sayin...

[Walleyes]

Yup,, a ban of 5 years may send a message..

[Fishfinder]

Then you would be the Criminal. Assault is a charge the Police would no doubt have a problem laying. I'm just sayin...

So be it. I would not sit back and let someone steal from me, my family, friends, community. It's not even really about the theft that bugs me, it's the principle and the poor example he is setting. Don't get me wrong,, I am not a violent person by any means but one way or another, buddy would not b fishin that lake anymore as it is apparent to me that he knew what he was doing and just didn't care. And if the laws can't stop him....well....

[Sundancefisher]

What should the penalty be for a paying resident that is fishing with bait or barbed hooks? A one year fishing ban? Food for thought...

I believe a stocked community lake should have a limit that is managed based on stocking rates and angling success. While I personally would love a catch and release lake for trout...the manager in me says it is a dumb idea. Not only are the fish living for only 5-8 years...not removing them at some point is a wasted resource. Balance and fairness should be the common sense norm in a lake such as ours.

As for fishing with bait (we can)...should be barbless...but warnings for infractions like that would be standard. Theft and poaching must be taken more serious and is a clear cut black and white problem.

Hope that answers your question.

[Sundancefisher]

Definition of Theft: (S. 322 Criminal Code of Canada)

1(a) to deprive, temporarily or absolutely, the owner of it, or a person who has a special property or interest in it, of the thing or of his property or interest in it;

I am nnot condoning this behavior, however as stated previously, if he is a PAYING RESIDENT how do you determine who is the "owner". Everyone who pays a resident fee "owns" the fish according to the Criminal Code. The only way theft could be pursued is if the offender was NOT a paying resident. This is why private lakes are such a sticky subject. I agree with Walleyes, he is simply breaking a rule, and thus it is up to the Lake Sundance Management to revoke his fishing priviledges. He is not guilty of anything under law. Of course this would be different if he was fishing a Provincial waterbdy.


We had one guy take 4 trout one day and was caught. He had taken 4 - 10 lbers. A 10 lb rainbow we stocked would be worth about $50/trout. Therefore he took $150 worth of fish he was not entitled to.

Charging someone with theft is a right of the community. He pays lake fees which contributes to the stocking, boat purchases, lights in the building, and the life jackets etc. So if he stole $150 in life jackets...why could he not be charged with theft just like if he stole $150 in trout.

No he is not the personal owner...he is a resident. The property and fish are owned by the lake resident's association. That is clear cut. We all own city infrastructure as we pay for it through our taxes...that does not allow us to steal things like bedding plants, trees, signs, trucks, computers etc.

Unfortunately the process of charging someone with theft would be onerous and our feeling is that a fishing ban hurts where it hurts a fishermen the most. One year ban first offense...2 year ban second offense...life time ban third strike and you are out...should act as a deterrent to most. That is the effect we want as we can not strip search guys hiding trout in their underpants...believe you me...that is probably happening.

[Walleyes]

Sundance,, how about a user pay type system.. What I mean is a fee per fish taken. If a guy wants to take 4 fish for supper charge him a pre set price per fish and let him/her take a few..

[Sundancefisher]

Stereotyping can be a dangerous game. This incident proves that poachers/rule breakers come in all ages, and races. Perhaps it's only the snot nosed young adult lippy male are the ones who are caught more frequently.

No offense intended and I am not calling you names. My comment stems from the maturity issue. We all look to respect those older than us...expect them to set the right example and expect to learn from them...and as such respect them more than you would someone much younger. With age comes life experience and it is a shame no one taught this guy respect and proper morals. I suspect maybe a few months fishing with you would of gone a long ways to teaching him that in this case...youth probably has more morals and values under their belt than he has.

[Sundancefisher]

Sundance,, how about a user pay type system.. What I mean is a fee per fish taken. If a guy wants to take 4 fish for supper charge him a pre set price per fish and let him/her take a few..

That would be more labor intensive which we always have to be careful of when having to pay staff etc. People would still steal versus pay...so we still solve nothing. Plus the fish are paid for already by residents and therefore we just need to prolong and share the harvest across those wishing to fish. Everyone has the right to fish but not everyone does. Everyone has to right to harvest...though not everyone does. If everyone harvest their limit...we would need a limit of less than 1 fish per year per household. Currently those harvesting fish are benefiting and some get extra greedy. It is a shame.

Currently catching and killing a 5 -10 lb rainbow is not hard. For that reason we stocked bigger trout but reduced the limits...people can feed a house for a meal on one trout versus need 4 - 12 inchers like we used to have. Some people just want 4 - 10 pound rainbows instead of 4 - 12 inch rainbows. They don't understand and fail to listen to reason.

[Wazzy]

Bottom line is this is a Private, Put and Take fishery. Paying residents cover the cost for fish to be stocked every spring. Although I love fishing for and catching these hard fighting rainbows, I much prefer catching wild and or native trout in the numerous lakes and streams around the province. We should be focusing our efforts on acknoledging, maintaining and protecting these fisheries for the future of our sport. If a private lake is stocked with "x" amount of trout, and throughout the year it is partially or fully fished out or otherwise devoid of fish by means of overharvest (either legally or illegally), winter/summerkill, etc, then so be it. Restock it in the spring or raise the fees to accomodate more stocking. Look at alot of the Alberta lakes that winterkill every year, they are stocked every spring at the hands of the Province. Whats the difference? Most of the people that pay into a lake such as this want to be able to catch and keep the fish and because they pay for it, this is their right to do so. No matter what the rules, somebody will always put a dollar value on it. Granted, there are always gonna be idiots that will abuse the system and keep more than their allotment no matter what the limit is. In my case, its a lot of non paying people that are keeping the fish by illegal means. You are not really "protecting" anything by not allowing these people to fish. Suppose he ignores his one year ban, whats the next penalty gonna be? A two year ban? Lifetime? Bottom line is you can not force him out of the community, there is zero legal recourse. These fish are put in the lake for enjoyment yes, but ultimately for harvest. A lake such as this is a priviledge! If there can be no common ground in relation to regulations etc then shut er down completely, swimming, and boating only.

[elkhunter11]

Exactly. Mind you it has been stated that if he has contributed money to the program then in a way He also owns the fish so how can he be charged with stealing ???

So if you contribute money with a group of people to start a business,and one of the people skims money from the company accounts,it isn't stealing?

[Wazzy]

[QUOTE=Sundancefisher;432733]We had one guy take 4 trout one day and was caught. He had taken 4 - 10 lbers. A 10 lb rainbow we stocked would be worth about $50/trout. Therefore he took $150 worth of fish he was not entitled to.

Charging someone with theft is a right of the community. He pays lake fees which contributes to the stocking, boat purchases, lights in the building, and the life jackets etc. So if he stole $150 in life jackets...why could he not be charged with theft just like if he stole $150 in trout.

Agreed, however it would work the same way Provincially if someone kept over their limit (6 trout instead of 5) for example. There is legislation in place in the Alberta Fisheries Act which usually results in a fine to deal with this type of offence. It does not meet the definition of theft. The same goes for a private pond, there must be penalties set forth by management to deal with this type of issue. How do you determine what percentage of his fee goes toward fish stocking, supplies, power for the building etc? If you could determine only $20.00 of his $300 annual fee (for example) went toward fish stocking and could prove he took $150.00 worth of fish over and above his limit then you may have a basis for a charge. Difficult to prove however because it is one collective community sum of money.

[Sundancefisher]

Hey Waxxy...I am confused by your posts...hence not sure what if anything we are agreeing to.

We do have rules in place. Break the rules there are consequences. Simple and straight forward. The way our lake works...he can not fish...he can't get in period.

If a private lake is stocked with "x" amount of trout, and throughout the year it is partially or fully fished out or otherwise devoid of fish by means of overharvest (either legally or illegally), winter/summerkill, etc, then so be it. Restock it in the spring or raise the fees to accomodate more stocking. Look at alot of the Alberta lakes that winterkill every year, they are stocked every spring at the hands of the Province. Whats the difference? Most of the people that pay into a lake such as this want to be able to catch and keep the fish and because they pay for it, this is their right to do so.

If we have no rules...there will be no fishery. A select few will harvest as many as possible in a free for all. How is that a smart way to operate a put and take fishery? Comparing our lake to a winterkill lake is black and white. There is no comparison possible unless I am missing something. Please elaborate.

If there can be no common ground in relation to regulations etc then shut er down completely, swimming, and boating only.

So what you are saying is that if someone breaks the rules...unless he agree to obey them...the rest of community is out of luck? Strange comment. I just don't get you here.

Cheers

Sun

[Sundancefisher]

[QUOTE=Sundancefisher;432733]We had one guy take 4 trout one day and was caught. He had taken 4 - 10 lbers. A 10 lb rainbow we stocked would be worth about $50/trout. Therefore he took $150 worth of fish he was not entitled to.

Charging someone with theft is a right of the community. He pays lake fees which contributes to the stocking, boat purchases, lights in the building, and the life jackets etc. So if he stole $150 in life jackets...why could he not be charged with theft just like if he stole $150 in trout.

Agreed, however it would work the same way Provincially if someone kept over their limit (6 trout instead of 5) for example. There is legislation in place in the Alberta Fisheries Act which usually results in a fine to deal with this type of offence. It does not meet the definition of theft. The same goes for a private pond, there must be penalties set forth by management to deal with this type of issue. How do you determine what percentage of his fee goes toward fish stocking, supplies, power for the building etc? If you could determine only $20.00 of his $300 annual fee (for example) went toward fish stocking and could prove he took $150.00 worth of fish over and above his limit then you may have a basis for a charge. Difficult to prove however because it is one collective community sum of money.

roughly $5 of his $220 yearly fee goes towards stocking. Take the stocking cost and divide by total community fees. Still a difficult process to go through to press formal charges. A suspension is easier to manage and easier to deal with. Assuming he killed twice his limit this summer...that would equate to about $500 in extra trout he took outside his limit. I suspect this is an argument between those with no sympathy for poachers and thieves versus those arguing for leniency for poachers and thieves. I suspect 95% of the board would like to see poachers roasted. Still... is charging someone versus giving them a fine versus banning them more correct than the other? I personally feel as a board member we have to provide a deterrent and also do what is most manageable for the staff and community. Hence we decided on a ban. Some argue 1 year is too short...some say 5 years... I do think we have to show some compassion that some people will screw up and then learn a lesson. Hence one year while seemingly short for some will give someone 365 days to think about how the fishing is without being able to see for themselves. If you are in it for the sport of fishing...one year would kill me. If you are in it for the meat...you just lost a year of catching 3-10 lb rainbows for supper table.

Will he think twice before doing it again? I certainly hope so. People know who he is now and will check him very closely after his one year ban.

Cheers

Sun

[Wazzy]

Sun,

You make some good points, and it is clear you are informed and are doing a good thing for Lake Sundance. My opinions and comments are based primarily on my observations at my lake...Summerside. It is not my intent to argue, and clearly there are many differences between the two lakes.

The comparison to a winterkill lake is the fact that you don't see people complaining when the lake is decimated in January due to lack of oxygen only to be restocked in May to allow 9 months of recreational fishing. There are a few small pothole lakes around the Stony Plain area in particular that are very popular with the flyfishing community that fit this example to a tee. I do understand however you do not get the opportunity to fish for large fish in these circumstances...for the most part. A put and take fishery is just that...a put and take fishery no matter which way you slice it. Charging a mandatory fee makes it a complicated one, everyone is going to have their own opinion on what they are paying for.

The point I was trying to make is people have to realize having a lake such as this is a priviledge in which I consider myself very lucky to be a part of. That being said, there must be a set of rules in place that is satisfactory to the majority of the community. It appears in your case this has been done. If these common guidelines cannot be met then yes...shut er down. There has got to be a line drawn somewhere when it becomes a cost issue to continually replenish the stocks of ten pound rainbows? How many of these ten pounders are being pulled out illegally with guys that are "flying under the radar" so to speak?

[Sundancefisher]

Sun,

You make some good points, and it is clear you are informed and are doing a good thing for Lake Sundance. My opinions and comments are based primarily on my observations at my lake...Summerside. It is not my intent to argue, and clearly there are many differences between the two lakes. No problem...that is clearly part of the confusion.

The comparison to a winterkill lake is the fact that you don't see people complaining when the lake is decimated in January due to lack of oxygen only to be restocked in May to allow 9 months of recreational fishing. There are a few small pothole lakes around the Stony Plain area in particular that are very popular with the flyfishing community that fit this example to a tee. I do understand however you do not get the opportunity to fish for large fish in these circumstances...for the most part. A put and take fishery is just that...a put and take fishery no matter which way you slice it. Charging a mandatory fee makes it a complicated one, everyone is going to have their own opinion on what they are paying for. Everyone has their right to an opinion at our lake. They can join the board. They can send emails. They can come to our meetings. However 98% of those people commenting on the new regs and greatly improved fishing quality have been totally in favor. In fact I have never seen so many smiling faces...kids and adults in 7 years. As this lake does not winterkill we can manage for a quality fishery. As trout costs a lot to stock we have to manage our finances. While we could have 8000 - 10000 trout stocked in our lake at any given time that is cost prohibitive. To stock few or let them all get killed quickly makes for a poor fishery. Since we can manage this lake to the benefit of all and create a quality fishery...why should we not. We just balance catch rates with stocking rates and budgets. Very simple formula. With that in mind...rules are required to make it all work.

The point I was trying to make is people have to realize having a lake such as this is a priviledge in which I consider myself very lucky to be a part of. That being said, there must be a set of rules in place that is satisfactory to the majority of the community. It appears in your case this has been done. yes we have rules that the majority of the community have agreed toIf these common guidelines cannot be met then yes...shut er down. not an issue for us thenThere has got to be a line drawn somewhere when it becomes a cost issue to continually replenish the stocks of ten pound rainbows? How many of these ten pounders are being pulled out illegally with guys that are "flying under the radar" so to speak?hopefully fewer and fewer get kill. They are harder to hide under your jacket like this guy was trying to do. :lol:

I hope we see each others view points now.

Sun

[Clgy_Dave2.0]

Just a question.. This fellow couldn't be charged under the provincial law could he ?? If I am not mistaken this over blown fish bowl is a private pond no ?? Some have stated that he is breaking the law,, and that he is stealing from the rest of us and so on.. First off he is breaking a " rule " not a law.. Second yes he is stealing but not from everyone just the people that fish and contribute to this aquarium right ???

And technically speaking he is not a poacher. A poacher is someone that breaks the law. Again He didn't break the law just a rule..

Just my thoughts...

Very sensible post.

[Sundancefisher]

Very sensible post.

He is breaking the law...stealing...theft. We have discussed that a fair bit. He is not breaking provincial fishing regulations but rather a private lakes regulations. That being said the point is this is the same thing..private..public should not matter. Poaching from a private lake or from a public lake is still categorized as poaching in my books. The biggest point is I doubt he has followed the provincial regs either. Do you think that being watched in close proximity did not stop him that being alone on a stream or lake in Alberta concerned him? Not likely. Most people are happy when someone is caught pilfering a fishery.

I just want to go on record as strongly encouraging people to report poachers and illegal fishing activity where ever they are and not be turned off by people thinking this behavoir is some how a little more tolerable. If it occuring in someone else's yard then better them then us?

[WayneChristie]

Poaching is Poaching is Poaching. Period. its all stealing from someone. and its WRONG!!! No discussion needed.

[Fishfinder]

He is breaking the law...stealing...theft. We have discussed that a fair bit. He is not breaking provincial fishing regulations but rather a private lakes regulations. That being said the point is this is the same thing..private..public should not matter. Poaching from a private lake or from a public lake is still categorized as poaching in my books. The biggest point is I doubt he has followed the provincial regs either. Do you think that being watched in close proximity did not stop him that being alone on a stream or lake in Alberta concerned him? Not likely. Most people are happy when someone is caught pilfering a fishery.

I just want to go on record as strongly encouraging people to report poachers and illegal fishing activity where ever they are and not be turned off by people thinking this behavoir is some how a little more tolerable. If it occuring in someone else's yard then better them then us?

Agree 100% Sun.

[Walleyes]

From the Dictionary;

POACHER;
a person who trespasses on private property, esp. to catch fish or game illegally.

So since this goof wasn't trespassing nor was he breaking a law but just a rule.. Like I said technically he is not a Poacher just an a-hole not playing by the sand box rules..

[Sundancefisher]

From the Dictionary;

POACHER;
a person who trespasses on private property, esp. to catch fish or game illegally.

So since this goof wasn't trespassing nor was he breaking a law but just a rule.. Like I said technically he is not a Poacher just an a-hole not playing by the sand box rules..

:huh:he is poaching from the community and the property is not owned or deeded to him but rather the Lake Resident's Association. Two different ownerships...house and lake...He does not own the lake.

there is a definition for everything...I found this on the first search... your definition is clearly missing these key points. So by your definition someone killling extra moose on public land and killing walleye during spawning season on public land is not poaching? Anyone else agree with this limited definition if this is truly a point for some reason?

Definitions of poacher on the Web:

* someone who hunts or fishes illegally on the property of another

By definition he is guilty as charged.........

[crudedude]

I think you all need to go outside and enjoy the day.:wave:

[Walleyes]

I think you all need to go outside and enjoy the day.:wave:


You have no idea how true that is.. Unfortunately I am stuck on this God forsaken piece of iron for 3 more days so ha ha,, you all have to put up with me..

[Sundancefisher]

You have no idea how true that is.. Unfortunately I am stuck on this God forsaken piece of iron for 3 more days so ha ha,, you all have to put up with me..

Ya and I am still trying to get over the piggy cough...:D

[Walleyes]

Ya and I am still trying to get over the piggy cough...:D


Well its good to see you made it alright sundance. How is the rest of the family..

[Sundancefisher]

Well its good to see you made it alright sundance. How is the rest of the family..

Let's just say nobody needs shots for immunity...:cry:

[bigjeff]

I read your post Kevin on the Calgary Fly Fishing Forum as well as here. I havent logged in or kept current with the board for awhile. Peoples comments on your original post reminds me of why I stay away.

I personally have seen you and your family in action working and voluntering like crazy to keep the lake a decent fishery especially after the illegal introduction of perch.

I understand your feeling of betrayal from someone who you knew in the community. I understand your frustration with people not repsecting the rules of the community. I wont bother debating the definitions of poaching vs rule breaking vs theft.

I'm glad you caught him, I'm glad he was punished ( too lighlty for my tastes) I'm sorry for the morons on this board that cant see the forrest for the trees! Wow, no wonder our fisheries are in trouble.

[big]

Sundance,, how about a user pay type system.. What I mean is a fee per fish taken. If a guy wants to take 4 fish for supper charge him a pre set price per fish and let him/her take a few..

some countries do that

[jts1]

Some places also behead you for theft or cut a hand off..

[baitfisher83]

Some places also behead you for theft or cut a hand off..

take off the casting arm!!!

[Beazer]

I should have also mentioned it's illegal to post pictures publicy of people who have committed theft.

[Sundancefisher]

I should have also mentioned it's illegal to post pictures publicy of people who have committed theft.

Who posted pictures? I am guilty of stealing bad jokes...and re using them.