Fishing reg RUMORS

[troyfitt]

herd that they were gonna open piegon lake for walleye,put a tag system on piehurst and slave ?????if anyone has herd anything lrt me know .

[troutpirate]

i cant help you with that but, i have heard we are supposed to be getting a couple new trout fisheries next year:)

[McLeod]

What they need on Slave and Pigeon is a slot limit.

Nothing under 12 nothing over 16 inches .. 30 cm to 45 or whatever number they come up with.Protect the big ones and small ones.
Both lakes have to many starving fish.
2 fish limit or whatever the science comes up with .

[C@RN@GE]

What they need on Slave and Pigeon is a slot limit.

Nothing under 12 nothing over 16 inches .. 30 cm to 45 or whatever number they come up with.Protect the big ones and small ones.
Both lakes have to many starving fish.
2 fish limit or whatever the science comes up with .

Slave would benfit from the slot size pigion would just get fished out.

[Penner]

They can manage the "slot size" through the tagging system. They open Pigeon up and say so long to the Walleye fishery as we know it today.

I'm wondering if they will have a zero catch limit on Perch in bodies of water where the Perch have been illegally introduced?

[sheephunter]

They can manage the "slot size" through the tagging system. They open pigeon lake up and say so long to the Walleye fishery as we know it today.

I'm not sure saying goodbye to the fishery we have today would be such a bad thing. Pigeon used to be one of the premier trophy lakes in the province. While instead of catching 200 fish a day, you only caught 30-40 but you could count on a couple of those being in the 10-pound range. That lake is so out of whack right now that we'll likely never see a decent population of big fish in it again.

[Penner]

I'm not sure saying goodbye to the fishery we have today would be such a bad thing. Pigeon used to be one of the premier trophy lakes in the province. While instead of catching 200 fish a day, you only caught 30-40 but you could count on a couple of those being in the 10-pound range. That lake is so out of whack right now that we'll likely never see a decent population of big fish in it again.

You make a good point. It can be difficult to figure out mother nature. They (SRD) could make a sticky situtaion even worse.

I guess it comes down to what anglers want. A trophy fishery or a quantity fishery. For a hard core guy, a trophy fishery for certain. For a family guy maybe with a couple of kids nothing like catching a couple hundred of Walleye on a sunny +30C day in July within an hours drive of home. As an Albertan with all of this Oil money I'd say build a berm right down the middle of the lake and have both! :o

[troutpirate]

They can manage the "slot size" through the tagging system. They open Pigeon up and say so long to the Walleye fishery as we know it today.

I'm wondering if they will have a zero catch limit on Perch in bodies of water where the Perch have been illegally introduced?

penner, you need to re-read the regs. that went through last year, it was under important changes for '09. all lakes that have been illegally stocked with perch have been identified and will continue to have a perch limit of 15. to reduce the incentive of further illegal stocking their will be 0 limit, for perch, on all other trout waters that dont currently have perch.

what i find funny is that millers lake is on this list. myself and all of the other people i know that fish millers on a regular basis have not seen a perch in this lake, since a severe winter-kill over 10 YEARS AGO!

nothing surprises me anymore with the edson and hinton area fisheries management folk. they have set the bar so low that im just thankful for the rare thing they do get right:mad:

[sheephunter]

You make a good point. It can be difficult to figure out mother nature. They (SRD) could make a sticky situtaion even worse.


Sadly, I think that's what they've already done through some well-intentioned but poorly implimented management regimes. I doubt we could ever see Pigeon restored to its glory days.

[Wulfespirit]

I can't think of a reason why Pigeon couldn't become what it was with a much more significant harvest followed up by tighter controls (1 fish slot limit) down the road but sadly that's not what SRD wants - there or on dozens of other lakes around the province. Hearing from someone who attended a meeting with SRD biologists a couple of months ago, it sounds like they're falling in the love with their (revenue generating) tag system (look for a huge expansion of it next year). Surprise surprise.

[sheephunter]

I can't think of a reason why Pigeon couldn't become what it was with a much more significant harvest followed up by tighter controls (1 fish slot limit) down the road but sadly that's not what SRD wants - there or on dozens of other lakes around the province. Hearing from someone who attended a meeting with SRD biologists a couple of months ago, it sounds like they're falling in the love with their (revenue generating) tag system (look for a huge expansion of it next year). Surprise surprise.

Forage is the big limiting factor as I see it. The perch are gone as are a lot of the whitefish. The walleye ate themselves out of house and home. Last time I filleted walleye there, a couple had small pike in their stomachs. You'll never get that forage base back.

[buckmaster]

Forage is the big limiting factor as I see it. The perch are gone as are a lot of the whitefish. The walleye ate themselves out of house and home. Last time I filleted walleye there, a couple had small pike in their stomachs. You'll never get that forage base back.

The best times at pigeon were probably the late 80,s to mid 90,s !!! Personally,i dont think that the lake will ever be the same as it once was...

[fisher Gord]

Yes lots of rumours about more lakes with tags. You would have thought Pigeon would have taught the fish bio's that you can not manage for one type of fish at a time. Anglers are happy to catch 20 to 100 walleye a day but that is not sustainable. That high of a catch rate can mean there are too many walleye and they will eat all the prey.The idea that every lake with walleye in it MUST be managed to increase the walleye population to the demise of all else even when the lakes are small does not make sense.

[AxeMan]

Some of the other fish species in the lake might have a chance to come back in time but the walleye harvest has to be allowed to increase significantly. We all know how perch populations can explode in a hurry with no predators. Just ask "Sun". I like the idea of a slot size regulation but I hate that money grab tag system.

[Wulfespirit]

Yes lots of rumours about more lakes with tags. You would have thought Pigeon would have taught the fish bio's that you can not manage for one type of fish at a time. Anglers are happy to catch 20 to 100 walleye a day but that is not sustainable. That high of a catch rate can mean there are too many walleye and they will eat all the prey.The idea that every lake with walleye in it MUST be managed to increase the walleye population to the demise of all else even when the lakes are small does not make sense.

Tell that to the younglings at SRD. I'm not sure where they're recruiting biologists from these days but while they may be congratulating themselves for creating millions of small to medium walleye, alot of the people paying their cheques aren't terribly happy. It's not just Pigeon either - plenty of lakes are in similar predicaments.

TJ - you might be right but like Axe says.. perch have been known to become crazy breeders when given a chance. The problem in Pigeon is a LOT of walleye need to be harvested to even find out if the forage fish can recover but SRD seems to hate the iea that a 3 year old with a stick, line, and minnow won't be able to catch 100 small-medium walleye in an afternoon.

They'll just go on selling 3 tags to anglers every year, enjoying the revenue, and pretending the pike/perch/whitefish issues on Pigeon and a plethora of other lakes don't exist.

[seahawkfisher]

a slot size is not the answer for pigeon for the simple fact that by the end of june, all the fish within the slot would be gone, and every fish that reaches the slot from that point on would get removed. next thing you know, you are stuck with a lake that has a bunch of fish past their prime spawning years and a few very small fish... on that note, how many of you have actually caught a significant number of "small" walleye there (meaning young fish, not the skinny-big-headed ones that are a dime a dozen there)
my 02cents
cheers

[Wulfespirit]

Clearly the fish in that slot would be greatly reduced in number but that's the point. They wouldn't entirely vanish - some would make it through to breeding/protected age and maybe even have some food left over to grow when they get there.

[C@RN@GE]

a slot size is not the answer for pigeon for the simple fact that by the end of june, all the fish within the slot would be gone, and every fish that reaches the slot from that point on would get removed. next thing you know, you are stuck with a lake that has a bunch of fish past their prime spawning years and a few very small fish... on that note, how many of you have actually caught a significant number of "small" walleye there (meaning young fish, not the skinny-big-headed ones that are a dime a dozen there)
my 02cents
cheers

X2

[AxeMan]

Has anyone heard if Wabamun is going to remain a 0 limit on everything next year? This was put in place after the CN spill. I wonder if they are still concerned about polluted fish. The pike are plentiful, big, and healthy looking now. I am not so sure the whites are what they used to be though.

[kreator]

I haven't heard anything about a tag system at Pinehurst, but I have heard Touchwood being tossed around. I would support both of those lakes getting a tag system. Pinehurst has some big guys, but the pressure on that lake is getting ridiculous and the longer we keep the limit at 1 for everyone, the quicker it's going to collapse.

But you can go out on Touchwood and catch dozens and dozens and dozens of Walleye in a day, anywhere from 1 pound to 10 pounds. Sadly, I think the netting is a higher priority than me and you going out and catching supper.

[bobalong]

Sadly, I think that's what they've already done through some well-intentioned but poorly implimented management regimes. I doubt we could ever see Pigeon restored to its glory days.

The only good thing I can see come out of the decline of the fishery at Pigeon is that after mis-managing every aspect of that fishery......maybe they have learned all the things that you should not do to a great fishery. Maybe but I doubt it.

[live2bout]

I believe the only sensible solution for Alberta at this point is to issue 6 tags per licence ( just an arbitrary number, could be higher or lower) and lake specific size limits and let the anglers have at it. This would spread harvest around, ease enforcement (no multiple trips daily), no tag =illegal. These tags would come with a license for a small fee which would go into a provincial walleye recovery program. Remote lakes with little access or no harvest issues could be exempted. Everybody gets a chance to eat a few, enjoy a camping trip fish fry, and biologists get some control with lake specific size limits (slots just plain make sense). Unfortunately this kind of drastic action would require increased enforcement as some people don't respect the rules and need to fear the repercussions of non-compliance.

[Waxy]

I believe the only sensible solution for Alberta at this point is to issue 6 tags per licence ( just an arbitrary number, could be higher or lower) and lake specific size limits and let the anglers have at it. This would spread harvest around, ease enforcement (no multiple trips daily), no tag =illegal. These tags would come with a license for a small fee which would go into a provincial walleye recovery program. Remote lakes with little access or no harvest issues could be exempted. Everybody gets a chance to eat a few, enjoy a camping trip fish fry, and biologists get some control with lake specific size limits (slots just plain make sense). Unfortunately this kind of drastic action would require increased enforcement as some people don't respect the rules and need to fear the repercussions of non-compliance.

I agree.

There has to be some way to regulate the harvest, and I think the tags would do that. Simply opening up a "slot" or some type of harvest limit on a daily basis or even a seasonal basis, would make management of the harvest really difficult. There'd be no way to accurately estimate or control the harvest.

As far as abuse, ANY type of possession limit on AB's lakes is going to result in increased enforcement issues, that's just a sad reality.

I also don't agree that the lakes can't be "fixed". With that kind of attitude, why bother doing anything? If we all subscribed to that attitude, many of these lakes would never have been designated C&R, and there might be no walleye fishery in AB today at all. Perch, whitefish, and other forage species are prolific, and I don't believe that the nutrient base for these species is an issue, so I see no reason why with proper management a reasonable balance can't be returned to these lakes.

Waxy

[sheephunter]

I also don't agree that the lakes can't be "fixed". With that kind of attitude, why bother doing anything? If we all subscribed to that attitude, many of these lakes would never have been designated C&R, and there might be no walleye fishery in AB today at all. Perch, whitefish, and other forage species are prolific, and I don't believe that the nutrient base for these species is an issue, so I see no reason why with proper management a reasonable balance can't be returned to these lakes.


I guess anything can be done but do you really think that F&W would be willing to wipe out the walleye population in Pigeon to reestablish the forage and then stock walleye again? Sometimes can't just means it's not going to happen. Biologists screwed up on Pigeon and we'll never get the trophy fishery back.

[Waxy]

I guess anything can be done but do you really think that F&W would be willing to wipe out the walleye population in Pigeon to reestablish the forage and then stock walleye again?

I don't think it's necessary to "wipe out" the walleye population in order to reestablish a perch, whitefish, or other forage base, that's an unrealistic exaggeration, so is the need for extensive re-stocking.

Do walleye numbers need to be reduced? Of course, but IMHO, the lake simply needs to be returned to a more "normal" state, which is far from wiping out the walleyes. I think that once re-introduced, the perch population, with proper regs (ie strictly C&R), will take care of itself from there. I'm never one to underestimate just how dynamic nature can be if given the chance.

Sometimes can't just means it's not going to happen. Biologists screwed up on Pigeon and we'll never get the trophy fishery back

Well, that's your glass half full opinion, I prefer to think that something can be done, and we should be at least be trying to do it. Any improvement is a step in the right direction, and worth the effort, we'll never know otherwise. At the very least, it beats throwing our hands in the air in defeat and then bitching and whining about it.

To my mind it comes down to what AB anglers really want, do they want a return to a trophy fishery where quality is valued over quantity, or are more anglers happy with the way it is now, where the shear quantity is valued over the lack of quality? That answer to that question will ultimately decide what happens with Pigeon and other similar lakes IMHO.

Waxy

[sheephunter]

I don't think it's necessary to "wipe out" the walleye population in order to reestablish a perch, whitefish, or other forage base, that's an unrealistic exaggeration, so is the need for extensive re-stocking.


Hardly an exageration at all. Reestablishing a baitfish population in a walleye lake is no simple task as as been demonstrated in many U.S. waters.

Well, that's your glass half full opinion, I prefer to think that something can be done, and we should be at least be trying to do it. Any improvement is a step in the right direction, and worth the effort, we'll never know otherwise. At the very least, it beats throwing our hands in the air in defeat and then bitching and whining about it...


Not bitching at all.....just stating some facts. Half full or half empty...there is only 50% volume in the glass and that's a fact too. I'm not sure what your experience with Pigeon is or what input you had in the form of anecdotal evidence back in the 90s but I can assure you that the biologists, trapped in a regime of reactionary management, screwed up with Pigeon. They acted with the info they had and in response to the pressure upon them and I don't blame them for what happened but in hindsight, they ignored a lot of very good anecdotal evidence and screwed up Alberta's top trophy walleye fishery...and that is a fact. Another fact is that they are never going to dedicate the time or resources to bring it back to that quality...if it were even possible. It's much easier to leave it as is and say oopps, we screwed that one up. I'm sure there were many lessons learned.

Actually, I know there were many lessons learned......

[Waxy]

I'm not interested in an argument, I posted my thoughts, I'll leave it at that and bow to your superior knowledge dating back to the 90's and beyond...

Waxy

[AxeMan]

Biologists screwed up on Pigeon and we'll never get the trophy fishery back.

Don't forget that it was biologists and SRD that created the trophy walleye fishery in the first place. The lake was never a great walleye fishery before the massive walleye stocking began in the 1980s. The big 10 pounders started to show up on anglers hooks about 1993 and through the 90s. Pigeon traditionally had a native walleye population but it was always kept in check until the massive stocking program began. This trophy fishery phenomenon was created and then allowed to stunt by SRD. The whitefish, perch, and pike were the losers in the end. The answer is to allow a massive walleye harvest. The million dollar question is how to do it now while leaving a balanced number of walleye.

[sheephunter]

I'm not interested in an argument, I posted my thoughts, I'll leave it at that and bow to your superior knowledge dating back to the 90's and beyond...

Waxy

As axeman pointed out, the happenings in the 80s and 90s are what got us to where we are today so I think it's very important to understand just what went on back then or there is no way to truly understand how we got to where we are today. There is a long history to Pigeon Lake and I know many biologists that use it as a learning experience of what not to do. Not arguing Waxy, just trying to bring some facts to light that many are likely unaware of.

I'll guarantee if biologists had it to do over again, they wouldn't do what they did. Their modeling was so far out of whack and what we have today is the result.

[AxeMan]

My fear is that the same mistakes that happened at Pigeon are being allowed to happen at other walleye fisheries like Touchwood where there are zero catch limits. Touchwood is getting close to what Pigeon was like in its hay day. Ten pounders are common and 50 C&R fish days are achievable. Now Touchwood is a considerably different lake than Pigeon but if the walleyes continue to remain protected while the other species are not then the same result can be expected. I have had this discussion with Wulfespirit as well and he is very knowledgeable and agrees that this situation exists on more than a few lakes in Alberta now

[sheephunter]

I have to agree axeman. Crawling Valley Reservoir is another one that comes to mind.

[troutpirate]

My fear is that the same mistakes that happened at Pigeon are being allowed to happen at other walleye fisheries like Touchwood where there are zero catch limits. Touchwood is getting close to what Pigeon was like in its hay day. Ten pounders are common and 50 C&R fish days are achievable. Now Touchwood is a considerably different lake than Pigeon but if the walleyes continue to remain protected while the other species are not then the same result can be expected. I have had this discussion with Wulfespirit as well and he is very knowledgeable and agrees that this situation exists on more than a few lakes in Alberta now

hey axeman, i know this is a little off topic but, has the lake trout stocking of the 80's payed any dividends on that lake yet? any signs of them reproducing?

it seems like you would be the right person to ask.

[AxeMan]

hey axeman, i know this is a little off topic but, has the lake trout stocking of the 80's payed any dividends on that lake yet? any signs of them reproducing?

it seems like you would be the right person to ask.

Nope, never seen one or talked to anyone that has. There is always the odd rumour floating around but none confirmed to my knowledge.

I heard that the trout stocking program in the 80's was a poor effort. I could go on and on about the Lake Trout in Touchwood but that would be way off topic. PM me if you want.

[Penner]

Forage is the big limiting factor as I see it. The perch are gone as are a lot of the whitefish. The walleye ate themselves out of house and home. Last time I filleted walleye there, a couple had small pike in their stomachs. You'll never get that forage base back.

I strongly disagree with you on this point. Plently of Perch and Whitefish around. Perch may not be trophy size but the small ones are in there by the boat loads. The larger Perch were long gone well before the Walleye took hold. Thanks to the loose limits and heavy angling pressure for them during the 90's.

Plently of Whitefish also. Catching more than I ever have caught. In addtion the summer/algae kills are proof of that. Ton's washing up on shore. Also a 1lbs Whitefish is way out of range as food for the average sized Walleye (18"er). I'd be more concern with the water conditions of the lake than the Walleye.

[Wulfespirit]

If there were plenty of whitefish and perch around, the walleye wouldn't be near as skinny as they are. Having spoken with various people who live at Pigeon and fish there all the time, they all agree that whites are in bad shape and perch are all but gone.

You can add Baptiste and Fawcett to the list of lakes overflowing with small and medium walleye to the detriment of other species in there too.

[Penner]

If there were plenty of whitefish and perch around, the walleye wouldn't be near as skinny as they are. Having spoken with various people who live at Pigeon and fish there all the time, they all agree that whites are in bad shape and perch are all but gone.

You can add Baptiste and Fawcett to the list of lakes overflowing with small and medium walleye to the detriment of other species in there too.

Are you serious dude? There are many other factors that contribute to skinny Walleye, stress, environment, water temps, etc. When folks over in Africa were starving to death due to the famine did you notice that their bellies were bloated as if they had eaten until they could eat no more? I guess we shipped over to much food relief right?

Perhaps the folks you talk to who live at Pigeon whom fish there year round are poor fisher people? I know a few people whom live around Pigeon too and they couldn’t catch a cold never mind a fish.

I'm no biologist but when there are hundreds of Whites washing up on shore during the kill this and last summer, and hundreds more feeding on the surface, and the fact that I am able to limit out each time I've ice fished for Whites over the past 3 years, and the fact that I see thousands of 3"-4" perch trying to steal the bait off my hook while fishing for Whites, I'd say you and many others may need to need to re-check your theories.

Essentially the point I'm trying to make is that everyone really needs to stop jumping on the "the evil Walleye band wagon" and go and check things out for yourselves. We gotta allow the biologists whom are paid to be the “experts” and give the regulations a chance to start working. It took several years of stocking just to get the Walleye back, it is only logical it will take several years to figure out the “best” system to effectively manage the fishery so that fish stocks stay healthy and abundant while allowing for “some” regulated/controlled harvest.

Face the facts, we have too many anglers for the fish bearing waters available to us. We need to regulate ourselves heavily or there will be nothing left. History shows we are not able to self limit our own angling greed so regulations got tougher, thankfully.

It is really funny that nobody ever complains about hunting draws and how great our hunting opportunities are here in Alberta. Would appear to me SRD has figured that one out. Apply the same “working” system to angling thinking outside of the box and then a few people don’t like it, they think it’s a money grab, and a few negative non-educated opinions get going and it snowballs into chaos.

Tell you what. If enough pressure and lobbying hits the government they will change the rules right or wrong. You’ll get what you want, an empty lake.

[sheephunter]

We gotta allow the biologists whom are paid to be the “experts” and give the regulations a chance to start working. It took several years of stocking just to get the Walleye back, it is only logical it will take several years to figure out the “best” system to effectively manage the fishery so that fish stocks stay healthy and abundant while allowing for “some” regulated/controlled harvest.


I think if you actually spoke with any of the biologists that they'd agree that things were not done as well as they could have been in Pigeon. At least I've been told that by several. Their data set and subsequent modeling was flawed from day one and the disaster we have in Pigeon now is the result.

I have no doubt they are doing their best now to try and find some balance for Pigeon but it's sad that it got in this state in the first place and unfortunately the balance that they are hoping to acheive will never result in Pigeon being Alberta's top trophy walleye fishery again. It's always going to be a different lake.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a number of other lakes in Alberta headed in that same direction now. Pigeon is screwed up forever...learn from it and don't make the same mistakes elsewhere.

It is really funny that nobody ever complains about hunting draws and how great our hunting opportunities are here in Alberta.

LMAO. You don't read the hunting forum often do you?

[Penner]

LMAO. You don't read the hunting forum often do you?

All though I love hunting just about as much as fishing, I’ll admit I only browse the hunting forum from time to time. I guess you’re saying folks are also upset with the hunting draw system also . Most of the guys I hunt with and other guys I talk to on a regular basis have never really had any issues with it but the draw system was pretty much already in place before any of us even started hunting passionately. Hunting tags have been around for ever (which in itself is technically a draw system) so we may not know any better.

Whichever the case, I still think it’s a decent way to limit and control legal harvest. Unfortunately I think we are all stuck with it until someone can come up with a better idea. I think most would agree opening up everything to everyone wither it be fishing or hunting would decimate populations in a hurry. Nobody can possibly want that.

As for Pigeon never getting back to the “way it was”, I guess that depends on how far back the “way it was” would be. Getting back to the condition it was in the 90’s would be do-able (unsure if I’d like to see it like that as I feel the fishing today is better than in was in the 90’s) getting it back to the condition it was like in the 30’s or something may be a different matter.

Back to mother nature, she can be resilient and she has a funny way of always balancing things out. Time will tell.

Sure makes for good debate and conversation.

[Wulfespirit]

I don't think fish can be compared to starving kids in Africa but if you think so, have at it.

If you don't believe the forage fish in Pigeon have taken a hard beating in the last few years, you haven't fished the lake for very long. Of course there are still whites there - but nowhere near the numbers of years past. There -might- be some perch around but they're sure a hell of a lot more hidden and few than they were in the past.

Many of those 'experts' have little experience managing lakes with the species, conditions, and pressure that occur in Alberta. They bring conceptual book knowledge to the table which, granted, is something, but it hasn't done a whole lot of good for us. For the last 15 years, they've been in a cycle of guessing and testing various theories and regulations and while some of them have helped walleye return from low numbers, they've been at the detriment of other species in various lakes and resulted in mass amounts of partially stunted walleye that continue to dominate their given lakes. There is no chance for anglers to keep those populations in check due to restrictive regulations that greatly limit harvest and seem to do nothing more than slow the growth of the walleye.

Now the word is that they're going to further expand their tag program. Unless they're significantly increasing the number of tags that can be applied for and lowering the cost so as not to aggravate an already very aggravated group of Alberta anglers, it's going to have little impact on the situation.

There are plenty of lakes that absolutely NEED a significant yet controlled walleye harvest - it seems to be a concept that SRD has a hard time grasping. Or perhaps they're putting way too much faith in having anglers that want to buy tags everytime they go fishing.

[crazyfish]

add lac st anne to the list, that lake used to be an amazing lake. Whitfish and perch were abundant all winter long, and made for some great days, the pike were prolific all year . WE used to catch 10-20 pike in an afternoon/ evening, then a few big eyes just before dark ! I haven't caught a pike in there for 3 yrs, the perch and whites, who knows, i guess they are trying to adapt and i'm not adapting fast enough, but how many skunked days to you keep trying different depths/ structure and places , before you have to say i give up. My kids think walleyes are the dumbest fish alive, due to the fact they can cath 30 an afternoon and not even have to try too hard, just be there!

I don't know the magic answer, but when walleyes are slamming spoons in 4-5 ft of water on a sunny afternoon, thats not what i grew up with as normal! Ive heard reports that the whitefish are still in pigeon, but .....? same as ST anne, .? tried til i gave up, and i'm ussually pretty adventureous! I'll try 3 ft or 30 in winter if thats where i need to be, but when you dig 200 -300 holes in a day and cover a lot of lake and not one shows up on the aqua vue! Thats a tough day. I do hope they get it right soon, because it's worse when it's too late.

[AxeMan]

Crazyfish, great post. What you describe is precisely what we are talking about. That is my exact experience at Lac St. Anne as well. I'll add another to the list as well. Elinor Lake. Used to be great for real decent perch, some good average pike, and some walleyes to 5 or 6 pounds. Now I catch walleyes to 2.5 pounds.......hundreds of them, one after another. Some people think it's great but I would rather have less volume and better quality and variety.

[HappyHunter]

I'm enjoying reading everyones point of views on the overpopulation issues alberta is facing and has faced.

Fished Pigeon only a couple times the last few years. On one of those outtings caught walleyes from 8am to 4 pm consistantly in 6 ft of water. One of which was a 18" fish, which on pinehurst would be a nice 2-2.5 lber, however it was so skinny i bet it would barely push th 1.5 lb mark. Overpopulation is taking its toll on all fish, stunting or starvation of the lake is goin to be a shame, unless the walleye population is decreased.

Pinehurst is a great lake to bad to it gets so much pressure, it needs to see a slot sizelimit set on a 1"-1.5" size limit (23-24in. eg.)so all young spawners spawn along with some larger ones.

The northeast around lac la biche has had a rough go with walleye stocking programs destroying lakes. The Mann lakes took a huge hit close to 10 years back, once had great perch, in came the walleyes ate everything resulting in winter kill and dozer piles of 5 lb + walleyes on shore in the spring.

Hope SRD looks at pigeons case of over population, pinehursts case of over pressure and does some soon to stop this from happening to other lakes!

[Wulfespirit]

Part of the problem with a lake like Pinehurst is its one of the few where catching and keeping a walleye is a good possiblity so it gets pressured. It seems to be holding up ok but it sees a lot of pressure. Same reason Calling Lake became so popular in recent years (again - holding up very well but there's a million boats their on summer weekends). If SRD would allow a reasonable harvest on more lakes that are in dire need of it, it would fix any potential future issue with Pinehurst (not that one necessarily exists) by spreading anglers out a little.

[McLeod]

That is the problem with C and R on Walleye lakes..It puts pressure on all the other lakes. Alberta's fishing regulations have always be screwed up in terms of having consistancy. Walleye fisherman generally like to eat a fish or to.
Having a lake C and R just moves most fisherman to another lake.


You will see a C and R on all Athabasca drainage Rainbows this year..
That of course is for flowing waters.

[unclebuck]

Pinehurst has been a good fishery for many years. It is receiving a lot of pressure from subsistence fishermen in the past 15 or so years. I can see where there will be, in the near future, a tag system instituted for anglers, on both Pinehurst & Touchwood, but no control on the subsistence fishermen, who incidently sell most of their walleye catch to whomsoever may be willing to purchase.

[Penner]

That is the problem with C and R on Walleye lakes..It puts pressure on all the other lakes. Alberta's fishing regulations have always be screwed up in terms of having consistancy. Walleye fisherman generally like to eat a fish or to.
Having a lake C and R just moves most fisherman to another lake.


You will see a C and R on all Athabasca drainage Rainbows this year..
That of course is for flowing waters.

I agree with you on this point. Opening up many lakes that have now appeared to have recoverd in Walleye quantities would be the first step towards balancing things out. There is no way they could do the Long Lake thing all over again as one or two lakes being opened would set them back to where this all started.

[madatter]

Is this same thing not happening at Pine Coulee Reservoir?
Not many pike getting caught,some ling cod and tons of walleye.
Walleye of course with a "0" limit.
You don't have to be an expert angler there either,throw a hook down with a piece of bait and you are bound to catch an eye....or a hundred!
Alot different than the southern Alberta lakes I'm used to for sure......:(

[jrs]

"Is this same thing not happening at Pine Coulee Reservoir?"

Except Pine Coulee was designed to be a walleye factory. Very expensive screens were designed to keep other species out and the reservoir was designed with a massive spawning area. Burbot and pike got in eventually and by the sounds of it burbot have been pretty successful. The forage base never had much time to get established before walleye were stocked either.
These lakes are what people wanted a few years ago. People asked for walleye and the government stocked them, everywhere. Hopefully lakes like Sylvan, Gull, and Pine don't go the same route as it's nice to actually catch big fish now and then, and other species besides walleye. There is a place for some lakes like Pigeon and Pine Coulee though, they absorb massive amounts of fishing pressure.

[Chris K]

I want to write a reply to this thread, but I get pretty frustrated at how our fisheries have been managed, and still feel angry at how many prime fisheries continue to be wrecked and mis managed. Slot limits don't work? They seem work fine EVERYWHERE else! I feel the tag system is a joke. I would feel a lot better if that tag money went back into fisheries, but with it going into general coffers, I just don't feel like our walleye lakes being done any justice, except for making the province more money. Here is the really big problem though. The forage in most lakes has been ruined, and like TJ stated it's not easy to get back. So many lakes are overpopulated and walleye have eaten themselves out of house and home. We have tons of runty pike in them too! Our governments management of these lakes has forced people who want to keep fish to go to certain waterbodies and all the year classes of larger fish are completely wiped out. This is fine with the governemnt though, as they manage for catch rates, and not quality of catch. In their opinion fishing is better than ever before! With the growth rates of walleye the damage that has been done in the last 15 years, it will take 20 or more years to reverse this problem. Slave will never get the chance to be what it was in the 90's again. Pigeon will never have the chance to spit out 30 fish an day over 7 pounds. Those genetics of Deifenbaker stocked fish are pretty much gone. Calling is well on it's way to being depopulated of fish from 6 to 9 pounds. In my opinion it should of been closed, or managed differently 2 years ago. It's really too bad that there is a lack of proactive management, and things have to get pretty bad before something is done about it. If lakes were watched very close and managed accordingly, we can have a good mix of quality and quantity. I am really worried about our southern reservoirs too, as there are some world class fisheries down there and they need to be maintained to keep producing quality fish well into the future. With the main proirity of water usage for irrigation though, it's sad to see how some of them get treated.

Chris K

[Pierre]

Guys,

slot limits WONT work here in Ab due to heavy angling pressure so nothing makes it through the 'slot'. Yes, they do work in SK, MB, ON, because of light angling pressure.

About 800 lakes in Alberta support natural game fish populations, and another 250 to 300 are stocked regularly with game fish. Assuming all the lakes supporting game fish are equally accessible to the estimated 350,000 Alberta anglers, this would amount to a ratio of about 320 anglers per lake.

Compared to other provinces, angling use is very high on many of Alberta’s lakes. To compare, Saskatchewan’s 94,000 lakes, Manitoba’s 110,000 lakes and Ontario’s 250,000 lakes each have a ratio of only 2 or 3 anglers per lake.

[sdimedru]

Guys,

slot limits WONT work here in Ab due to heavy angling pressure so nothing makes it through the 'slot'. Yes, they do work in SK, MB, ON, because of light angling pressure.

About 800 lakes in Alberta support natural game fish populations, and another 250 to 300 are stocked regularly with game fish. Assuming all the lakes supporting game fish are equally accessible to the estimated 350,000 Alberta anglers, this would amount to a ratio of about 320 anglers per lake.

Compared to other provinces, angling use is very high on many of Alberta’s lakes. To compare, Saskatchewan’s 94,000 lakes, Manitoba’s 110,000 lakes and Ontario’s 250,000 lakes each have a ratio of only 2 or 3 anglers per lake.

we're doomed! wow AB has **** all for lakes, never realized there was such a difference

[gunslinger]

i live 15 minutes from pigeon so we have fished it for years, the pike used to awsome in there and the walleye were huge, but it has deffintly changed a ton.

Now you go out there to take the kids to catch fish all afternoon and not one big one, hook dont even get to bottom and you got another one on. the walleyes need to be weeded out a little in there,

Am i going to far by saying we need to net that lake for a year to make room. cuase theres a ton of walleye in there now. would it not help the lake if we did.

[McLeod]

i live 15 minutes from pigeon so we have fished it for years, the pike used to awsome in there and the walleye were huge, but it has deffintly changed a ton.

Now you go out there to take the kids to catch fish all afternoon and not one big one, hook dont even get to bottom and you got another one on. the walleyes need to be weeded out a little in there,

Am i going to far by saying we need to net that lake for a year to make room. cuase theres a ton of walleye in there now. would it not help the lake if we did.

So what changed things ?
Was it word spreading that it was such great fishery and then got overfished and then C and R started as a reaction and then too many fish and no food left ?

[Waxy]

Guys,

slot limits WONT work here in Ab due to heavy angling pressure so nothing makes it through the 'slot'. Yes, they do work in SK, MB, ON, because of light angling pressure.

About 800 lakes in Alberta support natural game fish populations, and another 250 to 300 are stocked regularly with game fish. Assuming all the lakes supporting game fish are equally accessible to the estimated 350,000 Alberta anglers, this would amount to a ratio of about 320 anglers per lake.

Compared to other provinces, angling use is very high on many of Alberta’s lakes. To compare, Saskatchewan’s 94,000 lakes, Manitoba’s 110,000 lakes and Ontario’s 250,000 lakes each have a ratio of only 2 or 3 anglers per lake.

A couple comments on this.

First, I think your numbers are more than a little skewed, there may be 10,000 lakes in SK, but there's likely only 7-800, at the most, that actually receive any fishing pressure. Granted there are far fewer anglers, but I would peg the number at maybe 2-3X greater for AB than it would be in SK, certainly not a factor of 10. If you only counted the total angler hours on the most heavily fished lakes in AB and SK, I'm guessing the numbers would be fairly similar, though higher in AB.

The second thing is more philosophical. Why are fishermen, and people in general, so stupid that we need detailed, iron clad regulations in order not destroy that which we value most? Why do we need tags, slot limits, season possession limits, etc... in order to do what's in our own best interest? I know that we do, but I often wonder why. It's easy to blame SRD for all the problems, but if anglers shared a common vision of how we wanted AB's lakes managed, and we weren't so good at screwing things up for ourselves, SRD's job would be a lot easier.

Unfortunately, because the world is what it is, I think a slot limit will only work in AB if it's somehow connected to a tag system that will allow enforcement (at least moderately effective enforcement) of a maximum harvest, at least until the "blitz" is over and things are somewhat stabilized.

I agree with Chris K on the point that the tag money should go directly back to fisheries management, the fact it goes into general revenue is a total boondoggle IMHO. I also STRONGLY agree with Chris that the way the southern reservoirs are managed based solely on irrigation needs is pretty much criminal. I understand that that is their intent and why they exist, but there has to be a way to better manage water levels in these reservoirs with the fisheries being a greater priority.

Waxy

[sheephunter]

So what changed things ?
Was it word spreading that it was such great fishery and then got overfished and then C and R started as a reaction and then too many fish and no food left ?

The biggest problem I saw was that biologists would not believe the extent that natural reproduction was taking place, despite considerable anecdotal evidence to the contrary and their modeling showed a long slow recovery for Pigeon when it was actually fast and furious. Populations got way out of control way faster than they predicted yet they still refused to open it to some sort of catch and keep. The result was too many walleye eating themselves out of house and home. I questioned their modeling from day one as well as forage was never part of it. Apparently it should have been.

I think mostly what it came down to was that walleye were disappearing in some lakes and the biologists, trapped in a regime of over-reactionary management, came up with a very restrictive plan to help walleye recover. As it turned out, walleye were far more resiliant than biologists had modeled for and some lakes quickly became over populated.

[Chris K]

Guys,

slot limits WONT work here in Ab due to heavy angling pressure so nothing makes it through the 'slot'. Yes, they do work in SK, MB, ON, because of light angling pressure.

About 800 lakes in Alberta support natural game fish populations, and another 250 to 300 are stocked regularly with game fish. Assuming all the lakes supporting game fish are equally accessible to the estimated 350,000 Alberta anglers, this would amount to a ratio of about 320 anglers per lake.

Compared to other provinces, angling use is very high on many of Alberta’s lakes. To compare, Saskatchewan’s 94,000 lakes, Manitoba’s 110,000 lakes and Ontario’s 250,000 lakes each have a ratio of only 2 or 3 anglers per lake.


Thanks Pierre for your views, but I don't agree with you. Yes we can talk about ratios of anglers to lakes, but in Alberta we also have a much different diversity to those provinces for fisheries. How many of these anglers never touch a walleye lake and only fish for trout or in rivers? I would really like to see an actual breakdown of the numbers and what the percentages are. I can't imagine what you think is "light angling pressure". Ever been to Lake of the Prairies in Manitoba? Lake of the Woods in Ontario? Last Mountain, or Fort Qu'Appelle in Sask? You definately have not seen the pressure that say Winnebigoshish or Mille Lacs recieve in Minnesota. Mille lacs and Winnie look like parking lots on opener compared to Slave Lake. Sure a lot of these provinces or states have more waterbodies, but that does not mean that locally accessible lakes close to population centers don't get fished just as hard there as they do here. A ratio of 2 to 3 anglers per lake means nothing when there is no one on a lot of lakes, and a few thousand people fishing one. Slots have not been effective here in the past because of how they were used. The attitude of people towards a slot may need to change a bit too. They are a very effective management tool, but need to be implemented proactively and evaluated yearly, and changed as need be. Maybe slots just don't work for you, and you like keeping lots of big fish? It's inevitable in Alberta that the fish that are protected will be harvested anyways, and all a slot will do is save them and grow them for a few years before they get eaten, but it would be nice if we did have more quality fish in our waterbodies, and allowed the harvest of some smaller fish too to allow some of our fisheries to recover from over population. If our lakes were managed on an individual basis, and not blanketed by the same general practices, our fisheries would be much better off, and we wouldn't have disasters like Lac La Nonne or Lac Ste.Anne on our hands now.

Chris K

[spopadyn]

Pigeon is a joke. Fished it this summer and spent half a day trying everything to find a pike - nothing but 1-2lb walleyes. Wabamun lake is awesome with the C&R regs due to oil spill - but no forced imbalanced stocking occurred. Still lots of perch to feed the big pikes. We need limits more like Sask. Why not 1-3 keepers a day for Walleye with only 1 allowed over a certain size. Pigeon needs a 100,000 walleye harvested to get the population back down. Seriously, if a 100 people go out fishing and all catch 100+ walleyes, how many of those buggers must there be? A simple number that can be adjusted each year is cheapest and easiest to manage. If F&W need morre cash - skip the tags and just charge more for a license.

[Waxy]

Thanks Pierre for your views, but I don't agree with you. Yes we can talk about ratios of anglers to lakes, but in Alberta we also have a much different diversity to those provinces for fisheries. How many of these anglers never touch a walleye lake and only fish for trout or in rivers? I would really like to see an actual breakdown of the numbers and what the percentages are. I can't imagine what you think is "light angling pressure". Ever been to Lake of the Prairies in Manitoba? Lake of the Woods in Ontario? Last Mountain, or Fort Qu'Appelle in Sask? You definately have not seen the pressure that say Winnebigoshish or Mille Lacs recieve in Minnesota. Mille lacs and Winnie look like parking lots on opener compared to Slave Lake. Sure a lot of these provinces or states have more waterbodies, but that does not mean that locally accessible lakes close to population centers don't get fished just as hard there as they do here. A ratio of 2 to 3 anglers per lake means nothing when there is no one on a lot of lakes, and a few thousand people fishing one. Slots have not been effective here in the past because of how they were used. The attitude of people towards a slot may need to change a bit too. They are a very effective management tool, but need to be implemented proactively and evaluated yearly, and changed as need be. Maybe slots just don't work for you, and you like keeping lots of big fish? It's inevitable in Alberta that the fish that are protected will be harvested anyways, and all a slot will do is save them and grow them for a few years before they get eaten, but it would be nice if we did have more quality fish in our waterbodies, and allowed the harvest of some smaller fish too to allow some of our fisheries to recover from over population. If our lakes were managed on an individual basis, and not blanketed by the same general practices, our fisheries would be much better off, and we wouldn't have disasters like Lac La Nonne or Lac Ste.Anne on our hands now.

Chris K

That's an excellent point.

I also agree on pressure, AB is far from alone when it comes to heavily pressured lakes. The pressure on any of the lakes you listed, not to mention the prime bass fisheries in the USA, is staggering, and likely outweighs what we see here in AB.

Waxy

[sco22]

I also disagree on slot size not working. Spencer Lake had a slot size for years and has now moved to a 1 over 50 cm. Although it is a tougher lake to get to and it is closed during the week, there is a fair amount of pressure on this lake and it holds up well. I fish it summer and winter with very good numbers.

Now Pigeon would not do well with the same slot size (I think it was 42-53 cm fish had to be returned to the lake on Spencer). I would suspect that what Pigeon could use is a controlled harvest of the middle sized fish returning the small and large fish to try and create a more balanced ecology as it relates to the life cycle of walleye (help Sun - he know way more about this than I do). Pigeon must also be recognized as one of the few lakes in proximity to Edmonton that receives a tremendous amount of pressure. As Kreator said earlier, Touchwood Lake is a phenomenal example of what a trophy lake can be. Walleye readily caught over 6-8 pounds, big pike, perch. . .but it is not fished nearly as hard as Pigeon. My fear with Touchwood is that it is on a slower decline than Pigeon but will eventually start to self regulate the over-population of walleye by stunting. It gets netted for whites but not walleye (commercial anyhow - First Nations still take some walleye, which I have no issue with). Plus add to this the knee jerk reaction that happened with Pigeon where "fishermen" wanted to protect the walleye and have a day of catching large quantities. That was the original desire by some, not all, and as such we see the repercussions.

Finally, I find it interesting to contrast Pigeon to Calling Lake. A lot of people made fun of Minister Cardinal for opening part of the lake and the 1 any size walleye limit. I think there is a few people on this board (Drewski) that would agree Calling is a quality walleye fishery.

Anyhow, not sure I made any real points now that I re-read my post.

Cheers.

[Penner]

A couple comments on this.

The second thing is more philosophical. Why are fishermen, and people in general, so stupid that we need detailed, iron clad regulations in order not destroy that which we value most? Why do we need tags, slot limits, season possession limits, etc... in order to do what's in our own best interest? I know that we do, but I often wonder why. It's easy to blame SRD for all the problems, but if anglers shared a common vision of how we wanted AB's lakes managed, and we weren't so good at screwing things up for ourselves, SRD's job would be a lot easier.

Unfortunately, because the world is what it is, I think a slot limit will only work in AB if it's somehow connected to a tag system that will allow enforcement (at least moderately effective enforcement) of a maximum harvest, at least until the "blitz" is over and things are somewhat stabilized.

I agree with Chris K on the point that the tag money should go directly back to fisheries management, the fact it goes into general revenue is a total boondoggle IMHO. I also STRONGLY agree with Chris that the way the southern reservoirs are managed based solely on irrigation needs is pretty much criminal. I understand that that is their intent and why they exist, but there has to be a way to better manage water levels in these reservoirs with the fisheries being a greater priority.

Waxy

Very well said! We put ourselves into this situation so blaming the fish or SRD for their mistakes in my mind is wrong and that is the intent of my entire argument and viewpoints.

I also agree with you and Chris K. that the funds obtained from the draw system should be used to cover the cost of the system and what ever is left should be put back into fisheries and or enforcement thereof. I'm not certain to how anyone outside of SRD or RELM would really know where those funds actually go to so if you or anyone else had evidence that the funds are being used for other means I would love to see that. Perhaps its something we as outdoors people could act on to try and put pressure on those in charge to ensure the right thing is being done with our money!

[TangoKilo]

Pigeon lake aside,

why do we not have slot limits in Alberta?
It seems that in the provinces that use slot limits, they work very well!

[sheephunter]

Pigeon lake aside,

why do we not have slot limits in Alberta?
It seems that in the provinces that use slot limits, they work very well!

According to the biologists I've spoke with, Albertans are either to stupid or not law abiding enough to follow them.....

[Chris K]

According to the biologists I've spoke with, Albertans are either to stupid or not law abiding enough to follow them.....

With an attitude like that from biologists, no wonder we are in the situation we are in. Comprehension and education are simple for Albertains to understand, but apparently pre conceived notions are just too hard to overcome for those who seem to think they are above us regular folks.

Chris K

[TimC]

With an attitude like that from biologists, no wonder we are in the situation we are in. Comprehension and education are simple for Albertains to understand, but apparently pre conceived notions are just too hard to overcome for those who seem to think they are above us regular folks.

Chris K

Well said, people who poach don't care what limits or system are in place.

The tag system seems to be working, why won't the slot limit be?

[Waxy]

With an attitude like that from biologists, no wonder we are in the situation we are in. Comprehension and education are simple for Albertains to understand, but apparently pre conceived notions are just too hard to overcome for those who seem to think they are above us regular folks.

Chris K

While I would love to agree with you 100%, sadly, experience tells me otherwise. As soon as the door is opened a crack, there will be abuse, it's just a question of how bad it will be. That's definitely no reason to not make every effort to improve the situation, but I think it is a realistic factor that has to be considered.

This is purely my opinion, but I think that a lot of the "black and white" regs in AB are due to a combination of the biologist's and SRD's input. It's simply easier to make a lake C&R only, or have a min. size than it is to regulate/enforce slot limits, catch limits, season limits, etc... For SRD, if you're caught with a walleye in your possesion at Pigeon, that's a no brainer, you're guilty. If there's a daily limit, season limit, etc..., now they have to somehow enforce that, add in a slot size, and they have to enforce that too. I know there are plenty of perfect people on this board that will disagree with me, but IMHO, with every reg that's added, regulation/enforcement gets a little more grey, and a lot more difficult.

As for the biologists, the same is basically true, the fewer variables involved, especially the human variable, the easier it is to estimate populations, productivity, etc... I think it's going to be pretty difficult to predict and analyze the impact that anglers are going to have, and then manage the fishery based on that lack of data.

That may be jaded on my part, but I can't think of any other reason why AB doesn't use slot limits, and the threat of rampant abuse is always the first thing that gets blamed.

Waxy

[Wulfespirit]

Yes, Calling Lake is an excellent walleye fishery.. yet word on the street is that the 1 walleye harvest there is coming to an end inexplicably (no science indicating any issue). If they do a slot limit there, that'll be fine. But I smell tags and that'll be ridiculous and another reason that SRD needs some new staff.

It seems that yet again they believe that somehow walleye populations will suddenly and drastically collapse on a lake 2 hours from a big city with a 1 fish harvest yet they have no science to back them.

[sheephunter]

This is purely my opinion, but I think that a lot of the "black and white" regs in AB are due to a combination of the biologist's and SRD's input. It's simply easier to make a lake C&R only, or have a min. size than it is to regulate/enforce slot limits, catch limits, season limits, etc... For SRD, if you're caught with a walleye in your possesion at Pigeon, that's a no brainer, you're guilty. If there's a daily limit, season limit, etc..., now they have to somehow enforce that, add in a slot size, and they have to enforce that too. I know there are plenty of perfect people on this board that will disagree with me, but IMHO, with every reg that's added, regulation/enforcement gets a little more grey, and a lot more difficult.


Huh, you can keep walleye in Pigeon. We put 12 in the cooler one day in August. Yes, we needed tags for them but I fail to see how it takes any more enforcement to measure my fish with a tag in its mouth that it does to measure my fish without a tag in its mouth. Also, there already is a slot size on Pigeon and it seems most anglers aren't too stupid to figure out which fish are too big and too small for their Class B tags.

I see nothing gray about a squeeze or relax tail slot limit and I fail to see any extra enforcement required. It's common all over North America. I'm sure Alberta anglers aren't any more stupid or prone to poaching than other areas of North America. Poaching is already rampant in Pigeon according to SRD, I can't see legally allowing people to keep fish making that worse or requiring more enforcement.

I've been spoon fed the same line as you from SRD for years and I'm not swallowing it any more.

[TimC]

and the problem with the tags is i know many poachers are using it as a backup only when they are stopped. they will bring the tags along day after day to cover up their act.

[Waxy]

Huh, you can keep walleye in Pigeon. We put 12 in the cooler one day in August. Yes, we needed tags for them but I fail to see how it takes any more enforcement to measure my fish with a tag in its mouth that it does to measure my fish without a tag in its mouth.

Perhaps I should have said Crawling Valley, but the point essentially remains the same.
Do you really not see how the tag makes things drastically easier for SRD? The biologist?

You have a tag or you don't, and there's a very specific number of them issued, as opposed to simply opening up a slot size for harvest to all anglers. That alone should make it pretty clear, and I think most people can figure it out from there.

Also, there already is a slot size on Pigeon and it seems most anglers aren't too stupid to figure out which fish are too big and too small for their Class B tags. I see nothing gray about a squeeze or relax tail slot limit and I fail to see any extra enforcement required.

Case in point.

IMHO, for the general population, myself included, regardless of what is being regulated, any increase in regulations, or any area in which you *might* introduce a degree of subjectivity (ie measuring a fish), will result in increased difficulty in enforcement. That seems pretty straightforward to me.

I'm sure Alberta anglers aren't any more stupid or prone to poaching than other areas of North America. Poaching is already rampant in Pigeon according to SRD, I can't see legally allowing people to keep fish making that worse or requiring more enforcement.

Quite frankly, I don't think poaching is the problem, and I could be wrong, but I don't think it's the biologists biggest concern either. However, it would follow to me that when you increase the number of anglers, and the number of people that are potentially catching and keeping fish, you'll likely need to increase the amount of enforcement out there handling the issue as well. The same way you need more security at sold out rock concert at the Saddledome than you do at an open mic night at the local pub.

The legitiate concern that I see, is how do you predict and regulate the harvest of fish within the slot size? You want to cull the population yes, but I don't think you don't want to wipe out entire year classes while you're at it. You don't have to have rampant poaching to do that, completely law abiding anglers could likely accomplish that feat in a very short period of time without some sort of regulation and enforcement.

At any rate, I don't have the answers, only a few observations and gripes, I'll leave it at that.

Waxy

[sheephunter]

Case in point.

IMHO, for the general population, myself included, regardless of what is being regulated, any increase in regulations, or any area in which you *might* introduce a degree of subjectivity (ie measuring a fish), will result in increased difficulty in enforcement. That seems pretty straightforward to me.


Again, I say "huh"

We already have to measure most species of fish in the province that we want to retain and have had to do so for decades....a slot would introduce no more subjectivity. We aren't talking anything new here.

You have a tag or you don't, and there's a very specific number of them issued, as opposed to simply opening up a slot size for harvest to all anglers. That alone should make it pretty clear, and I think most people can figure it out from there.


But we have loads of waters already open to catch and keep without a tag....what would adding a few more change. Again, nothing new is being suggested. I think most people have already figured it out from there and that's why they aren't buying into the "company" line any more.

I mean if we need the tag system to truly control the harvest I haven't got an issue with that but don't tell me that Alberta anglers are too crooked or stupid for for a slot.

[Waxy]

Again, I say "huh"

We already have to measure most species of fish in the province that we want to retain and have had to do so for decades....a slot would introduce no more subjectivity. We aren't talking anything new here.

But we have loads of waters already open to catch and keep without a tag....what would adding a few more change. Again, nothing new is being suggested. I think most people have already figured it out from there and that's why they aren't buying into the "company" line any more.

I mean if we need the tag system to truly control the harvest I haven't got an issue with that but don't tell me that Alberta anglers are too crooked or stupid for for a slot.

Nevermind sheephunter, you're right, you're always right. I should know better by now.

Waxy

P.S. Thanks for at least not calling me a newbie.

[sheephunter]

LOL...I'm just pointing out the fact that we already do all the things that SRD uses as excuses not to go to a slot. We already keep fish on Pigeon...we already have a slot with Class B tags and we already measure the majority of the fish we keep to see if they are legal. If stating a few facts offends you I apologize but we aren't as stupid or crooked as SRD would believe. I would have thought you of all people wouldn't be so quick to buy into their rhetoric and pass it along as your opinion.

[C@RN@GE]

LOL...I'm just pointing out the fact that we already do all the things that SRD uses as excuses not to go to a slot. We already keep fish on Pigeon...we already have a slot with Class B tags and we already measure the majority of the fish we keep to see if they are legal. If stating a few facts offends you I apologize but we aren't as stupid or crooked as SRD would believe. I would have thought you of all people wouldn't be so quick to buy into their rhetoric and pass it along as your opinion.

Pigion lake would be fished out in no time if it was opened up to the b slot size. There are tons of crooked fishermen out there. Ussually only the dumb ones get caught.

[Waxy]

LOL...I'm just pointing out the fact that we already do all the things that SRD uses as excuses not to go to a slot. We already keep fish on Pigeon...we already have a slot with Class B tags and we already measure the majority of the fish we keep to see if they are legal. If stating a few facts offends you I apologize but we aren't as stupid or crooked as SRD would believe. I would have thought you of all people wouldn't be so quick to buy into their rhetoric and pass it along as your opinion.

LOL...You don't offend me sheephunter, nor do facts. Nor do I believe that Albertans are stupid or crooked, if you read my posts, that should be clear to you.

I should have known better than to think that you of all people would actually consider the validity of an opinion or "rhetoric" that wasn't your own...

Waxy

[crazyfish]

So then, here we are, and where do we go ! Does SRD have a plan for the next few years, ....the forseeable future, or are they still knee-jerking and stubbling around. Some hard answers would be nice as to the plans for the future. I really hope that there are some !

I can only guess at the pandemonium that opening up pigeon for a week or weekend would cause, but i think it would have the desired effect, removal of a lot of fish to help balance out the system! Its scary, but it needs to be done! Then again maybe 3 tags isn't enough ! maybe make it 6 or 8, even ten ! just to try and keep away from a riot!

The other possibility....open up pigeon, lac st anne, lac la nonne, pcr , wolf, garner, newell all at the same time for a few days, that would spread out the numbers instead of the whole province flooding into one area. Make it the provincial fishing day/ week, so there would be a good opportunity for everyone ! Am i crazy for saying this or what; but i think it's the only way!

[sheephunter]

Yikes...an open weekend at Pigeon...can you imagine the mayhem at the launch...lol

I'm not anti tag at all but they can't even get rid of all the tags now so obviously they need a new solution. I'd still like an answer as to why a slot would not work. It may not but I've yet to hear a scientific/management reason. I've heard that poaching would be rampant. Well poaching is already a big issue on Pigeon according to SRD so how could legally allowing people to catch fish make that worse. Maybe I'm naive but I don't think most Alberta anglers are that dishonest. I don't see it causing any more of an enforcement issue. The fish cops have to check every angler now anyhow.....it's not going to be the guy that admittedly has a fish in the livewell or on a stringer that they need to worry about. It would be the same people that are poaching now so where is the extra enforcement? I've heard that anglers aren't capable of measuring for a slot. Well that's funny considering we already have to measure for minimum size limits on the majority of fish we keep in Alberta and we already have a slot we need to measure for on the tag lakes. How would having an open slot be any different? Give me a management reason and I'm all ears but the best I've heard is that anglers are either too stupid or dishonest for a slot. Funny that anglers in the rest of North America aren't.

[The Elkster]

I think the tag system is still the way to go for AB. Firstly the tag system doesn't have to be a money making proposition. We could make tags $1 simply to cover the cost of administration. There is nothing within tag methodology that says paying $10-15/tag is crucial to the systems success. If we want to reduce pressure by raising costs then we may as well just make an annual license $500 and be done with it. But that isn't what the tag system is about.

The main benefit with the tags is making managment and enforcement a little easier. Absolutely there will still be room for abuse but at least there is a better chance at keeping abuses in check. One of the biggest issues I have encountered when it comes to poaching fish is the multi-limit day. That is to say people going on the lake limiting out, heading home then heading back out after lunch to nail another limit. Now certainly if a person is inclined he can hold off on tagging until a CO comes along but when the CO does come along he is gonna have to burn a tag or three and those are at least done and gone. Without tags a CO would have to sit out all day and collect proof that the person went home with a limit before lunch and then came back out and hours later confirm they got another limit. Virtually impossible.

With tags one can focus pressure on various lakes in different years and cap total takes as required and fairly distribute the allowable kill between fishers rather than by default allowing the guys who live beside the lake and fish after work every night the opportunity to take a big percentage of the total allowable. If they went this route it would be far better to go full out and open most lakes to some extent as resources allow. This will help to distribute pressure and allow for opportunities in all area's. As with any scheme enforcement is a critical factor in its success.

The one other thing that may have more affect on fish managment than anything else is raising fines for offenses. Is the guy who breaks the law at risk of a $150 fine still gonna risk it if the fine goes to $2000 or perhaps he risks losing his license for 5 years no questions asked?

[live2bout]

I believe that Alberta should issue a set number of walleye tags with every licence and open lakes up to slot limits. One of the issues for a lake like pigeon is the high number of daily users, a limited number of walleye tags for the year would help distribute the kept fish among those who choose to honour regulations (if you live on Pigeon is it fair you could keep 200 or more fish a year on a one per day limit-perhaps if the resource was plentiful but when not sustainable I say no). People could choose when to use their tags and everybody gets a fair shake. Albertans already practice lots of catch and release and fisheries haven't gotten less popular because of it but being able to keep a handful of fish over the year does add to the experience.
To those who don't follow regulations and continue to poach I am in favour of very large fines and equipment seizures. Manitoba has recently fined fisherman thousands for overlimit of goldeye! If you want compliance you have to make it totally not worth it.
Nothing is a lost cause, Alberta has a history of abusing lakes and having them recover into awesome fisheries before we wreck them again. Lakeland country was a wreck 60-70 years ago when Alberta had no population to speak of there, look into the history of fur farming and the netting to feed the mink (and what it did to the lakes) there. On that note, when are we going to wake up and finish with commercial fishing, the resource is much more financially valuable when used recreationally.

[sheephunter]

I think the tag system is still the way to go for AB. Firstly the tag system doesn't have to be a money making proposition. We could make tags $1 simply to cover the cost of administration. There is nothing within tag methodology that says paying $10-15/tag is crucial to the systems success. If we want to reduce pressure by raising costs then we may as well just make an annual license $500 and be done with it. But that isn't what the tag system is about.


Unfortunately ISM wants their pound of flesh and administration fees are much greater than $1. I've argued since Day 1 that tag prices were way too high and thankfully they were adjusted somewhat. We aren't selling an opportunity to fish here, the licence grants us that, we are selling an opportunity to keep some fish and if that works out to too much a pound, anglers won't buy in. I'm not sure why the government doesn't get that. They'll never acheive their harvest goals by charging too much a pound because that's all the tag buys you.

[Waxy]

I think the tag system is still the way to go for AB. Firstly the tag system doesn't have to be a money making proposition. We could make tags $1 simply to cover the cost of administration. There is nothing within tag methodology that says paying $10-15/tag is crucial to the systems success. If we want to reduce pressure by raising costs then we may as well just make an annual license $500 and be done with it. But that isn't what the tag system is about.

The main benefit with the tags is making managment and enforcement a little easier. Absolutely there will still be room for abuse but at least there is a better chance at keeping abuses in check. One of the biggest issues I have encountered when it comes to poaching fish is the multi-limit day. That is to say people going on the lake limiting out, heading home then heading back out after lunch to nail another limit. Now certainly if a person is inclined he can hold off on tagging until a CO comes along but when the CO does come along he is gonna have to burn a tag or three and those are at least done and gone. Without tags a CO would have to sit out all day and collect proof that the person went home with a limit before lunch and then came back out and hours later confirm they got another limit. Virtually impossible.

With tags one can focus pressure on various lakes in different years and cap total takes as required and fairly distribute the allowable kill between fishers rather than by default allowing the guys who live beside the lake and fish after work every night the opportunity to take a big percentage of the total allowable. If they went this route it would be far better to go full out and open most lakes to some extent as resources allow. This will help to distribute pressure and allow for opportunities in all area's. As with any scheme enforcement is a critical factor in its success.

The one other thing that may have more affect on fish managment than anything else is raising fines for offenses. Is the guy who breaks the law at risk of a $150 fine still gonna risk it if the fine goes to $2000 or perhaps he risks losing his license for 5 years no questions asked?

Excellent post Elkster.

That's what I was trying to say in this part of my post -

The legitiate concern that I see, is how do you predict and regulate the harvest of fish within the slot size? You want to cull the population yes, but I don't think you don't want to wipe out entire year classes while you're at it. You don't have to have rampant poaching to do that, completely law abiding anglers could likely accomplish that feat in a very short period of time without some sort of regulation and enforcement.

Controlling and quantifying the harvest is the single biggest management issue regarding the creation of a slot limit IMHO.

Beyond the obvious situation of daily limit poaching, even the completely honest and law abiding fisherman, especially one that has lots of friends and family that love to eat fish and is able to be on the water for 100+ days a year, can have a significant impact. Multiply that by the number of boats on a lake like Pigeon with a newly opened slot limit, and how would the biologists ever estimate or regulate the harvest?

A tag system, although admittedly not without its faults, seems like the best solution to me, at least until the impact on the fisheries can be calculated and the management system fine tuned in accordance. I completely agree on the use of the tags as a management tool, not a fundraising tool. I think that's what's holding people back on the tag system at this point.

Make up the funding difference by drastically increasing fines.

Waxy

[Wulfespirit]

Excellent post Elkster.

Beyond the obvious situation of daily limit poaching, even the completely honest and law abiding fisherman, especially one that has lots of friends and family that love to eat fish and is able to be on the water for 100+ days a year, can have a significant impact. Multiply that by the number of boats on a lake like Pigeon with a newly opened slot limit, and how would the biologists ever estimate or regulate the harvest?

Waxy

I've heard that alot and I don't buy it. While there are people who have the opportunity to spend a hundred+ days a year taking their 1 or 2 fish out of a lake, there aren't a ton of them. Not enough to horribly impact a reasonable fishery anyway.

We don't need to harvest a few more fish from these lakes, we need to harvest ALOT. Obviously I can't quantify it exactly but a few thousand fish isn't going to make a big difference.

Having been to Calling Lake on a few weekdays this summer (1 walleye, 2 pike any size), I observed less than a handful of boats. On the weekend, it's definately a gong show but it tells me that it's not like we have thousands of people chomping at the bit to hit a lake everyday and keep fish.

[Waxy]

I've heard that alot and I don't buy it. While there are people who have the opportunity to spend a hundred+ days a year taking their 1 or 2 fish out of a lake, there aren't a ton of them. Not enough to horribly impact a reasonable fishery anyway.

We don't need to harvest a few more fish from these lakes, we need to harvest ALOT. Obviously I can't quantify it exactly but a few thousand fish isn't going to make a big difference.

Having been to Calling Lake on a few weekdays this summer (1 walleye, 2 pike any size), I observed less than a handful of boats. On the weekend, it's definately a gong show but it tells me that it's not like we have thousands of people chomping at the bit to hit a lake everyday and keep fish.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I think that once the "blitz" was over, the situation would likely settle out much the way you've presented it. The initial free for all would be my concern, and that's the most critical part when it comes to management and achieving the desired goal.

After that, I still think that there can be significant impact from law abiding anglers, because simply put, poaching alone wasn't responsible for the collapse of AB's walleye fishery that put us in the position we're in now.

As an example of how perfectly law abiding fisherman can have a significant impact on the population, one needs look no further than Last Mountain Lake in SK at first ice. It's common knowledge that in certain places, walleyes in the 4-12lb range are easier to catch than cold, and small towns practically spring up on these spots. Unfortunately, at least IMHO, the majority of legal fish that are caught are kept. In talking with the F&W and fisheries guys there, they feel it has a significant impact on the fishery, but there's nothing they can do about, as it's completely legal according to the current regs.

Waxy