Hunting from horseback

[Tonto]

A poster mentioned that maybe horses should be "booted out of the back country." It would put everyone on equal ground.
Could anyone tell us why horses should be banned from the mountains and foothills. I just can't seem to think of a good reason.

[sheephunter]

Horses are already banned from many mountain areas but many areas are open too. Like any user group, they have a negative impact on the environment. Horses compete with ungulates for food and they cause erosion problems with the trails they create. They also introduce many invasive plant species that are very detrimental to native vegitation. Allowing them in the backcountry has a cost just as does allowing hikers and off-road vehicles. I'd sure hate to see them banned as they represent a significant user group and as a society we have decided that some of our activities take precident over the enviroment. But to say there are no reasons not to ban isn't true....there are lots...just as there are for all user groups. We just need to find that balance between our impact on the environment and its health. Sometimes we do a good job and other times we don't.

[IR_mike]

To put the hunt down to the lowest common denominater and remove any advantage a horse may provide?

It would put everyone on a more level "playing field" in regards to mobility or personal energy expanded.

JMHO.
And I dont hunt sheep

[Tonto]

Horses are already banned from many mountain areas but many areas are open too. Like any user group, they have a negative impact on the environment. Horses compete with ungulates for food and they cause erosion problems with the trails they create. They also introduce many invasive plant species that are very detrimental to native vegitation. Allowing them in the backcountry has a cost just as does allowing hikers and off-road vehicles. I'd sure hate to see them banned as they represent a significant user group and as a society we have decided that some of our activities take precident over the enviroment. But to say there are no reasons not to ban isn't true....there are lots...just as there are for all user groups. We just need to find that balance between our impact on the environment and its health. Sometimes we do a good job and other times we don't.

The only "good" reason I can see is the introduction of non-native plants.
The amount a few horses eat would have very little impact on the ungulates IMHO. And most of the time horses are taken on existing trails.
I don't think any of these reasons would require the horses to be "booted" off the mountain.

[sheephunter]

The amount a few horses eat would have very little impact on the ungulates IMHO

Some areas require users to haul their own horse feed in and they are not permitted to graze so it has been deemed a problem in some areas. Unfortunately, this only makes the invasive plant issue worse when hay is used.

And most of the time horses are taken on existing trails.


LOL...existing trails created by horses. It's the repeated use that leads to errosion.

I don't think any of these reasons would require the horses to be "booted" off the mountain.

As I say, all users groups come with a cost and when that cost becomes too high, action is taken. ATV users are certainly seeing that now. I've trailed horses into the mountains for 20 years but I'm not so naive as to not think I don't have am impact.

[Tonto]

To put the hunt down to the lowest common denominater and remove any advantage a horse may provide?

It would put everyone on a more level "playing field" in regards to mobility or personal energy expanded.

JMHO.
And I dont hunt sheep

They could also make a zone horses only, that would equal the playing field. That's far fetched, but it safe yet another mode of transportation being banned.
Banning any sort of transportation is akin to lessening access.

[IR_mike]

They could also make a zone horses only, that would equal the playing field. That's far fetched, but it safe yet another mode of transportation being banned.
Banning any sort of transportation is akin to lessening access.

Very true but it still cuts down the numbers of hunters as well as possible harvest numbers in addition to the environmental issues sheephunter mentioned.

[sheepguide]

Worst thing that cutting out the horses will do is eliminate many sheep hunters. Many guys dont back pack and many cant.

Sure they compete for 2 months with elk for forage but they have done this for many many years. Forstry regularily monitors the grass in many areas and seem to think that the horses are ok. And as far as the evasive plant life well I havent seen much timothy, alfalfa or oats growing out there yet. I do understand the evasive species issue put as stated in most postings that it is spread more in areas where feed is brought in than where grazing occures.

I think if the horses were eating every bit of grass on every hill or medow in an area then maybe but many elk winter up on the south facing slopes where horses very seldom ever go.

I do think that outfitters need to be controled on the horse numbers that they have up there as some take way more than they ever use.

An your just not just eliminating hunters but also many summer riders that only get out in the mountains because of horses.

I dont see enough damage out there to call for the shutting off of horses and im in the most used horse country in alberta( YaHa and Hummingbird).

[209x50]

Very true but it still cuts down the numbers of hunters as well as possible harvest numbers in addition to the environmental issues sheephunter mentioned.
For sure it levels the playing field and would probably do more to reducing the amount of sheep killed in a season than any 5 year wait plan... and it would apply to outfitters which at last count was 45 sheep a year. Hmmm, maybe not a bad idea.

[Tonto]

For sure it levels the playing field and would probably do more to reducing the amount of sheep killed in a season than any 5 year wait plan... and it would apply to outfitters which at last count was 45 sheep a year. Hmmm, maybe not a bad idea.

Leveling the playing field is no reason at all. If that was the case, the guys that are in really good shape should have to go barefoot and the guys with the bigger bellies can wear hiking boots.

I have a better idea on how to cut down sheep harvest by outfitters. But that's for a different topic.
Are you suggesting to just cut out horseback access for sheep hunting only?

[Tonto]

As I say, all users groups come with a cost and when that cost becomes too high, action is taken. ATV users are certainly seeing that now. I've trailed horses into the mountains for 20 years but I'm not so naive as to not think I don't have am impact.

Nor am I. I am just suggesting that the impact is minimal, and does not require "booting" them from the hills.

[calgarychef]

When you said "hunting from horseback" I was thinking you were going to ask about shooting off the horse. If you ever do that I'll hold the camera for you while you "touch one off." Could be the next viral video!!

the chef

[Tonto]

When you said "hunting from horseback" I was thinking you were going to ask about shooting off the horse. If you ever do that I'll hold the camera for you while you "touch one off." Could be the next viral video!!

the chef

You can shoot off the back of any horse

[Tonto]

Once

[sheepguide]

I think we have alot bigger issues in our province enviromentaly then a horse ****ting out a couple seeds. Or walking down a hundred year old trail.

[Matt L.]

Only if you ain't trained it proper lol. I hope that they are never banned from the backcountry. Best way to travel it IMO.

BTW, does anyone know the legalities of shooting at game from a horse, if there are any?:confused:

[Tonto]

I think we have alot bigger issues in our province enviromentaly then a horse ****ting out a couple seeds. Or walking down a hundred year old trail.

yup

[sheepguide]

Some areas require users to haul their own horse feed in and they are not permitted to graze so it has been deemed a problem in some areas. Unfortunately, this only makes the invasive plant issue worse when hay is used.

There are very few areas that actually require this. Not sure about the southern zones but between hwy 1 and 16 there are none that ive seen. And dont believe the Wilmore is that way either but I may be wrong.

[Tonto]

There are very few areas that actually require this. Not sure about the southern zones but between hwy 1 and 16 there are none that ive seen. And dont believe the Wilmore is that way either but I may be wrong.

I think sometimes the "bring your own feed" signs are put up just to appease the enviromentalists. I don't think it is ever enforced.
Kinda silly to have to bring your own feed for 2 horses for a weekend when there are a hundred head of cattle feeding in the same area your camped in.

[JustinC]

I dont even think this is an issue. If you want to get a hourse go get one and if you dont want to dont.That is one tool that may or may not help you out. We should not have someone always telling us what we can or can not do.I think that should leave as is and move on.

[Tonto]

I dont even think this is an issue. If you want to get a hourse go get one and if you dont want to dont.That is one tool that may or may not help you out. We should not have someone always telling us what we can or can not do.I think that should leave as is and move on.

I agree with you. I was just trying to find out the reasoning behind the poster's statement.

[sheepguide]

I think sometimes the "bring your own feed" signs are put up just to appease the enviromentalists. I don't think it is ever enforced.
Kinda silly to have to bring your own feed for 2 horses for a weekend when there are a hundred head of cattle feeding in the same area your camped in.

The only place I know is the BigHorn campground at the YaHa but there is also no grazing on the ranch lands. Of the lands you can and dont need to pack feed.

[JustinC]

I agree with you. I was just trying to find out the reasoning behind the poster's statement.
Someone (not sure who) probably got mad at someone else and started typing.I dont really think anybody ment anything by it just another heated discussion on the thread.

[IR_mike]

Kinda silly to have to bring your own feed for 2 horses for a weekend when there are a hundred head of cattle feeding in the same area your camped in.

I have always had problems with the number of animals allowed to graze on crown lands.
I have no problem with grazing being allowed on so called "crown lands" just the amount and intesity.

I have seen over grazing in the 300,400 as well as the 500 wmus.

It does not help the native wild life and I think it is a issue that has to be looked at again and changed.

[JustinC]

I have always had problems with the number of animals allowed to graze on crown lands.
I have no problem with grazing being allowed on so called "crown lands" just the amount and intesity.

I have seen over grazing in the 300,400 as well as the 500 wmus.

It does not help the native wild life and I think it is a issue that has to be looked at again and changed.
X2 There is some places that are destroyed by cattle.

[Vindalbakken]

Many areas of the States require "certified hay" to be used for the horses.

Cut out the cattle in areas that are overgrazed (do not allow the Cattle industry to determine this one!) and limit the horses to carry in feed that is certified free of noxious plant species.

Doesn't do much about the sheep hunting issue, but certainly will help the health of the mountain environment which will help the health of elk and sheep herds.

[209x50]

Many areas of the States require "certified hay" to be used for the horses.

Cut out the cattle in areas that are overgrazed (do not allow the Cattle industry to determine this one!) and limit the horses to carry in feed that is certified free of noxious plant species.

Doesn't do much about the sheep hunting issue, but certainly will help the health of the mountain environment which will help the health of elk and sheep herds.
Very true Vin. Nothing is more disgusting than working your way into a high alpine basin or canyon and seeing the remains of hay bales and thistle growing out of old horse turds.
On the sheep hunting issue if we are killing to many sheep then we have become to efficient at it. We can close areas or seasons or go to a draw or we can make it a little tougher by banning ATVs and horses for hunting the mountains.
For all those that want more sheep and elk on the mountains think of the benefit to the populations! I know those of us with ATVs or horses aren't going to care much for the idea but what is the harm in trying if it is for the good of the herds?

[bingo1010]

Nor am I. I am just suggesting that the impact is minimal, and does not require "booting" them from the hills.

i don't if the "minimal" comment applies everywhere!! i have been in a couple areas up near cadomin that the horse trails are cut to a depth of over 3 feet in the hillside. hardly minimal. like most others on here, i do not support any type of ban on horses, i feel the same about atv's as well. i think it is more an idea of policing to ensure proper land use principles, for both horse users and atv riders, province wide.

[Tonto]

Very true Vin. Nothing is more disgusting than working your way into a high alpine basin or canyon and seeing the remains of hay bales and thistle growing out of old horse turds.
On the sheep hunting issue if we are killing to many sheep then we have become to efficient at it. We can close areas or seasons or go to a draw or we can make it a little tougher by banning ATVs and horses for hunting the mountains.
For all those that want more sheep and elk on the mountains think of the benefit to the populations! I know those of us with ATVs or horses aren't going to care much for the idea but what is the harm in trying if it is for the good of the herds?


Nothing is more disgusting???????
If there is too many sheep getting killed , maybe we should just shut the sheep season down for 5 years. Think of the benefit to the populations! No harm in trying.

Kind of a stretch isn't it. By the way, black is not white.

I am assuming that a ban of horses would have to be year round, not just during hunting season. That would make it pretty tough to round up the cattle every year.

[sheepguide]

Very true Vin. Nothing is more disgusting than working your way into a high alpine basin or canyon and seeing the remains of hay bales and thistle growing out of old horse turds.


LOL you bet 209 because we all know how many guys pack bales into high alpine basins and canyons to feed their horses:lol::lol::lol:

Still dont think its worse than ripping through beaver dams and creeks with an argo is it. Everyone on here leaves there mark somewhere. Dont bash one group when your just as guilty or more so in other areas!!!!

SG

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

how many years have peolpe used horses in the mountains????
and now some bunny hugger wants to stop them?????
i just dont think the impact on tame controlled horses in the mountains is the problem, even the government winter ranged their forestry and, fish and wild life horses in the mountains, (ya ha tinda) and now some bunny hugging hiker thinks they are hurting the envirorment, i could say yes to this if there was great heards of hoses roaming those hills but there isnt,what hurts the envirorment is when people just take horses out and turn them loose to fend for themselves ,(because they are to much expence to look after) I believe there had been a post on that about a year ago, (Dumping Of Horses )the acumulation of those typse of things will harm any natural envirorment

[Highcountry]

I really dont see an issue, everyone is on a level playing field. The way I think of it is that every person has the right to own a horse so go buy, borrow, or rent one. And about the so called erosion issues thats a load of crap, sure there are some trails cut through the valleys and most are about 3" deep in the bottom of a grassy flat. But what I dont think people remember that those trails were used on a daily basis by people for the past 120+ years. Does that really amount to a substancial amount of impact? people can keep complaining about the populations of game in the west country but I dont think its a grazing issue or a horse issue, its come down to a game management issue if there are too many sheep harvested cut them back, heres an idea how about only letting trophy hunters take 3 sheep in a lifetime that way you wouldnt see those young ones get knocked off on opening day every year people might just hold out for one, letting them grow allitle more and for those that think they need ten rams on the wall well maybe your the problem!

[Sheepcrazyguy]

:lol:I agree with you. I was just trying to find out the reasoning behind the poster's statement.

I guess I may have originally started all of this with my statement about foot access only. I was only offering a different idea to making sheep hunting better as some on here seem to want to find it easier to kill a big ram. I could care less about horses being used to sheep hunt. As I've stated numerous times I DO NOT want to see any changes! I think it's fine the way it is. But one way to improve sheep hunting is to limit access. That way the harder a hunter works to get farther back into the mountains the better his chance of killing a big ram. The farther back you go the less hunters. That way no one has to stop hunting sheep and if you want one you just have work for it. I think you get the idea. I don't like the idea of not ever being able to hunt sheep because I've already shot one, a 5 year wait or any other changes proposed on here.

[Tonto]

No, it wasn't you sheepcrazyguy.

[Vindalbakken]

LOL you bet 209 because we all know how many guys pack bales into high alpine basins and canyons to feed their horses:lol::lol::lol:

Still dont think its worse than ripping through beaver dams and creeks with an argo is it. Everyone on here leaves there mark somewhere. Dont bash one group when your just as guilty or more so in other areas!!!!

SG

2 wrongs do not make a right, only 3 lefts can do that.

There is a problem with habitat degradation by invasive plant species in the high alpine and one of the biggest sources of that problem is horse feed. Denying that problem because someone destroyed a bog with an argo is disingenuous.

[crazyfish]

i think the cows need to be taken out of the mountains first, never have understood the reasoning behind that, we have lots of good areas for cows east of the mountains, the amount i saw this summer going down the 40 along the upper oldman was crazy !

I also believe that the horses have a place, all within a sustainable context, but i don't see the willmore being well utilized without them. The atv's i belive to be a more contentious issue, a couple long weekends of intense quading and biking can leave far more damage than a few years worth of horses. ( i own a quad, not a horse )

Alberta has a long and proud history of horses in the mountains, i think it should continue !

[sheepguide]

2 wrongs do not make a right, only 3 lefts can do that.

There is a problem with habitat degradation by invasive plant species in the high alpine and one of the biggest sources of that problem is horse feed. Denying that problem because someone destroyed a bog with an argo is disengenuous.

Im not denying anything!

The biggest part of guys wanting other groups moved out or banned has nothing to do with enviroment.

99% of guys out there couldnt tell the diff. between invasive plants and native ones but yet they sure say its the problem. If the people trained in this figure there is such a large problem then why hasnt anything been done previously.

I also see how many bales of hay are packed into the mountains in a year. Very few. The odd guy that takes in a wagon or get there camp and some feed flew in with a chopper. The majority of guys that are packing in take very minimal feed if any.

Maybe we should ban sunflower seeds while we are at it!

Lots of guys feed oats to horses but you pretty much never see oats growing in a pile of horse ****. About all you will see growing in horse **** is mushrooms and toadstools.

SG

[Matt L.]

Well, here's the fairest solution: Ban all access to the mountains.






Thought you wouldn't like it.

[sheephunter]

2 wrongs do not make a right, only 3 lefts can do that.

There is a problem with habitat degradation by invasive plant species in the high alpine and one of the biggest sources of that problem is horse feed. Denying that problem because someone destroyed a bog with an argo is disingenuous.

Ya, the old two wrongs make a right is a very slippery slope indeed. User groups need to take responsibility for their own actions and try to mitigate their impact as much as possible and not try to deflect attention from their impact to another group's. The danger is both wrongs could be eliminated!

People also need to become more educated on the impact their activity really has. Shouting that it doesn't have an impact really does little to divert attention. Environmental issues are huge in this province right now, especially in the mountains and it's good to understand how errosion is caused and what can be done to prevent it and it's good to understand that invasive plant species are easily transported through horse manure. Look at some of the regs in the U.S. regarding horse use in the mountains. Two wrongs didn't make it right there.

[Tonto]

Well, here's the fairest solution: Ban all access to the mountains.






Thought you wouldn't like it.

Actually, that is the perfect solution, if the goal is to level the playing field.

[209x50]

:lol:

I guess I may have originally started all of this with my statement about foot access only. I was only offering a different idea to making sheep hunting better as some on here seem to want to find it easier to kill a big ram. I could care less about horses being used to sheep hunt. As I've stated numerous times I DO NOT want to see any changes! I think it's fine the way it is. But one way to improve sheep hunting is to limit access. That way the harder a hunter works to get farther back into the mountains the better his chance of killing a big ram. The farther back you go the less hunters. That way no one has to stop hunting sheep and if you want one you just have work for it. I think you get the idea. I don't like the idea of not ever being able to hunt sheep because I've already shot one, a 5 year wait or any other changes proposed on here.
Yep, you and I agree on this and I can clearly see that you're not a bunny hugger either! LOL.
I can clearly see your thought process too and if we are worried about how man and how mature the ram population is your suggestion is the best one I've seen so far.
Those acting obtuse and sneering at your suggestion doesn't make them look glib just, well obtuse.

[Matt L.]

Actually, that is the perfect solution, if the goal is to level the playing field.

It is isn't it? Now can you imagne the reaction of those who are complaining about 'unfairness'?:rolleyes:

[sheepguide]

Yep, you and I agree on this and I can clearly see that you're not a bunny hugger either! LOL.
I can clearly see your thought process too and if we are worried about how man and how mature the ram population is your suggestion is the best one I've seen so far.
Those acting obtuse and sneering at your suggestion doesn't make them look glib just, well obtuse.

:lol::lol::lol: Cant wait to see the next hunt you have in New Zeland. LOL wonder how many mountains you will rip around on this time with an OHV. But I guess since them arent ours they dont matter!!!

Horse guys understand the enviromental impact as much as anyone. They arent ignorant people. They gunna do what they can to protect it. To ban them or the quaders is only to keep guys out!! You guys talk about increased opurtunities for hunting and stuff but it is very obvious that you dont mean for everyone.

[buddyhunter]

Yep, you and I agree on this and I can clearly see that you're not a bunny hugger either! LOL.
I can clearly see your thought process too and if we are worried about how man and how mature the ram population is your suggestion is the best one I've seen so far.
Those acting obtuse and sneering at your suggestion doesn't make them look glib just, well obtuse.

I am not sure exactly why feel the need to insult people's intelligence and opinions in the majority of your posts. It's a little rude.

Also, you were the one who brought that maybe horses should be booted from the back country to put everyone on a level playing field. That may be your opinion and that's fine if it is. However in the sheep on a draw thread you keep talking about creating opportunity rather then removing them. I am just not sure what you are trying to get at? Perhaps maybe you were trying to start a fight, who knows?

[209x50]

I am not sure exactly why feel the need to insult people's intelligence and opinions in the majority of your posts. It's a little rude.

Also, you were the one who brought that maybe horses should be booted from the back country to put everyone on a level playing field. That may be your opinion and that's fine if it is. However in the sheep on a draw thread you keep talking about creating opportunity rather then removing them. I am just not sure what you are trying to get at? Perhaps maybe you were trying to start a fight, who knows?
If you took my comment about being obtuse (def: not quick or alert in perception) as an insult then I apologize.
Many ideas have be pushed forward in this or the other thread on how to improve sheep numbers. Most have been suggestions that outlined curtailing opportunity. Removing horses and ATVs form the mountains only makes it harder to hunt sheep or elk but doesn't remove any seasons or tags. Easy access has been the detriment of sheep populations and making that access a little more arduous would mean less people in the mountains, less sheep killed and better populations with perhaps better trophy potential. The line that has been used by so many to defend their proposal has been "what can it hurt and why shouldn't we try for the good of the sheep?" Well what could it hurt to try?

[Tonto]

If you took my comment about being obtuse (def: not quick or alert in perception) as an insult then I apologize.
Many ideas have be pushed forward in this or the other thread on how to improve sheep numbers. Most have been suggestions that outlined curtailing opportunity. Removing horses and ATVs form the mountains only makes it harder to hunt sheep or elk but doesn't remove any seasons or tags. Easy access has been the detriment of sheep populations and making that access a little more arduous would mean less people in the mountains, less sheep killed and better populations with perhaps better trophy potential. The line that has been used by so many to defend their proposal has been "what can it hurt and why shouldn't we try for the good of the sheep?" Well what could it hurt to try?

To many places have been shut down to hunting already. By banning horse access, it would shut down hunting to more people. The goal is not to have less access, is it???
What could it hurt?? Banning one area would just be a start. We are seeing that with ATV bans. One or 2 areas have an ATV ban, and all that does is over-populate the areas that allow ATV's. Then the powers that be see the overuse and they ban more areas. And their reason will be, well that's what the outdoorsmen wanted.
Kinda like the grizzly bear hunt. Once it's gone it may be impossible to get back.

[shooter]

When it comes to overuse of Horses and Atv's in the mountains, I'd say that most likely the hunting population is not the leading cause. I'm sure that there are way more weekend Trail Riders and ATVer's.
To single out the ones that utilize trails and transportation for hunting would be a mistake.

I also agree with the cattle grazing having way more impact than horses using the country. To see some areas after the cattle have been in there for a few months is a real eye opener.

As for horses being "easy access" to get to spots, I wouldn't exactly call it that. Anyone who has ever taken an outfit to the hills using horses works just as hard or maybe harder than a backpacker and sure as heck gets less sleep. Sure the legs are fresher at the end of the trail but the maintenance and care that the horses need is a job in itself. It's not like you park your horse and forget it for a few days.

If easy access is the true problem with sheep size then we should ban the use of vehicles and all walk from home too while we're at it! I would love to see stats of successful sheep hunts relative to how they got in the area. I'd be quite sure that many would be backpackers, some mountain bikes, some horses and atvs and frankly maybe the backpackers would have the edge. Maybe then someone would say let's ban foot access....:rolleye2:

[crazyfish]

Kinda like the grizzly bear hunt. Once it's gone it may be impossible to get back.

We should stay focused and compare two similar things....the grizzly hunt was stopped due to numbers based on "?science" :huh:, the idea of removing horses from the equation is only an idea and based on personal preference and the atv use is a bigger issue with more "recreational =non hunting users on a yearly basis , not just hunting ! We may lose the atv battle because of things out of the control of hunters. The weekend warriors are the biggest culprits! :mad3::mad3:
Most of the north and middle parts of the province already have rules regarding horse use and times of year etc .( i'm not familiar with anything south of the south ram area) Willmore will probably always have horses in it , and i don't see that changing! There are alot of areas that can only be accessed by foot, and thats where you can usually find me, i think there is a decent balance in place between access for all users in a time and place frame ! not perfect, but also not broken ! I'm all for open discussion, and have learned a bunch over the last two large treads... but would prefer to see things kept on topic and positive !

I think better information at trailheads, better enforcement, and maybe education can go a long ways to keeping our opportunities open and accessable to all !

[sheepguide]

Easy access has been the detriment of sheep populations and making that access a little more arduous would mean less people in the mountains

You talk about easy access. To me guys day hunting on foot off highways or roads(kananakis, cadomin and many other places), walking in three or four miles and camping is alot easier access than a person trying to get a pack string back in 20 miles! If its so easy to do these hunts maybe you should come try and organize one and get everything there without any mishaps.

I think you try and hide your own ignorance on the subject by saying others are!!!

[209x50]

To many places have been shut down to hunting already. By banning horse access, it would shut down hunting to more people. The goal is not to have less access, is it???
What could it hurt?? Banning one area would just be a start. We are seeing that with ATV bans. One or 2 areas have an ATV ban, and all that does is over-populate the areas that allow ATV's. Then the powers that be see the overuse and they ban more areas. And their reason will be, well that's what the outdoorsmen wanted.
Kinda like the grizzly bear hunt. Once it's gone it may be impossible to get back.
Banning horses doesn't mean a loss of access - that is the beauty of it. The places where ATV's have been banned people on foot and horses still have access don't they? I'm not arguing for a second about trail damage or anything else. It just a fact that no horses would mean less penetration into the back country by fewer people. The hardcore guys will still be there, to them it doesn't matter how they get there - they are hardcore. There will still be the easy access areas around the edges for those not so inclined to work. But the big winner is the herd, less pressure means more and bigger animals and we do it all with out losing a day of sheep season or a single tag. So where is the loss? JMHO

[Vindalbakken]

It would be interesting to see what the cost of an outfitted sheep hunt would go to when they start using helicopter drops to get the equipment and men in there. :lol:

[sheepguide]

Banning horses doesn't mean a loss of access - that is the beauty of it. The places where ATV's have been banned people on foot and horses still have access don't they? I'm not arguing for a second about trail damage or anything else. It just a fact that no horses would mean less penetration into the back country by fewer people. The hardcore guys will still be there, to them it doesn't matter how they get there - they are hardcore. There will still be the easy access areas around the edges for those not so inclined to work. But the big winner is the herd, less pressure means more and bigger animals and we do it all with out losing a day of sheep season or a single tag. So where is the loss? JMHO

The loss is the great guys that are out there "EVERY YEAR" for multiple weeks at a time that have a huge passion for sheep hunting and the outdoors. We arent here just about the hardcore(cause if we were you sure wouldnt be out there). And guys would be loosing alot of days of sheep season as many guys would never hunt sheep again if the atvs and horses werent allowed. That is our loss.
We are looking at getting a more mature ram population but dont want guys to give up the sport because they cant go anymore. Stuff like the 5 year rule or age limits and other options discussed here still allow everyone to hunt the way they love. They just may have to wait a few extra years or hunt a little longer to get that older ram, but it doesnt kick them out all together.

[buddyhunter]

Banning horses doesn't mean a loss of access - that is the beauty of it. The places where ATV's have been banned people on foot and horses still have access don't they? I'm not arguing for a second about trail damage or anything else. It just a fact that no horses would mean less penetration into the back country by fewer people. The hardcore guys will still be there, to them it doesn't matter how they get there - they are hardcore. There will still be the easy access areas around the edges for those not so inclined to work. But the big winner is the herd, less pressure means more and bigger animals and we do it all with out losing a day of sheep season or a single tag. So where is the loss? JMHO

So let me get this straight; you think that banning horses in the mountains will result in less presure therefore more and larger sheep? (Which is pure speculation, since these people that use horses can also walk if they so chose) But having a 5 year wait and ACTUALLY removing hunters from the mountains, which will result in less presure, won't help produce more and larger rams?

I just don't get the argument you have here?

[sheepguide]

It would be interesting to see what the cost of an outfitted sheep hunt would go to when they start using helicopter drops to get the equipment and men in there. :lol:

The equipment deal is happening fairly frequently already by outfitters and residents in many zones. The just cant transport hunters guns or game.

[sheephunter]

It would be interesting to see what the cost of an outfitted sheep hunt would go to when they start using helicopter drops to get the equipment and men in there. :lol:

It's illegal to:

transport big game hunters, except those requiring medical aid, or big game by helicopter over WMUs 400-446.

land or take off in a fixed-wing aircraft that is carrying big game, big game hunters or firearms of a calibre larger than .22 at or from any location in WMUs 400-446 except those locations where aircraft routinely land and take off.

[shooter]

So where is the loss? JMHO

The loss is the freedom and choice of how you want to experience your mountain sheep hunt. Options are a nice thing! Once that is gone it will be an enormous task to claw it back!

The loss is the shared experience with my son on future horseback hunts!

Why change what isn't broken?! Give me a break!! Like I said in my previous post, odds are that backpack hunts account for the majority of successful sheep kills anyhow.

I you looked at the gun bill the same way as you look at this, we'd all be left with only spears to hunt with.

[sheepguide]

It's illegal to:

.

[sheepguide]

It's illegal to:

Exactly TJ I said guys guns or game wasnt allowed to be transported and for the second part I dont beleive a chopper is a fixed wind aircraft.

[sheepguide]

I dont agree with the use of helicopters but it does happen.

[Tonto]

Banning horses doesn't mean a loss of access - that is the beauty of it. The places where ATV's have been banned people on foot and horses still have access don't they? I'm not arguing for a second about trail damage or anything else. It just a fact that no horses would mean less penetration into the back country by fewer people. The hardcore guys will still be there, to them it doesn't matter how they get there - they are hardcore. There will still be the easy access areas around the edges for those not so inclined to work. But the big winner is the herd, less pressure means more and bigger animals and we do it all with out losing a day of sheep season or a single tag. So where is the loss? JMHO

Banning any mode of transportation is a loss of access to certain groups. Maybe a fellow with a bum knee is on his last few sheep/elk /moose hunts.
His only mode of transport is by horse, because ATV's have been banned.

[sheepguide]

Just got off the phone with Ice Field Helicopter Tours TJ and if you dont beleive what I have to say maybe give them a call and ask them for their imput.. their number is 1-888-844-3514 they are located west of Nordegg(Cline River)

[209x50]

So let me get this straight; you think that banning horses in the mountains will result in less presure therefore more and larger sheep? (Which is pure speculation, since these people that use horses can also walk if they so chose) But having a 5 year wait and ACTUALLY removing hunters from the mountains, which will result in less presure, won't help produce more and larger rams?

I just don't get the argument you have here?
So if your not worried than lets give it a try. I'll tell you this I'm surpised at the support I've got. I need to draft a letter for Rob Corrigan and get it sent in.

[209x50]

Banning any mode of transportation is a loss of access to certain groups. Maybe a fellow with a bum knee is on his last few sheep/elk /moose hunts.
His only mode of transport is by horse, because ATV's have been banned.
You're concern for me is heartfelt but the new knee brace has helped a lot and I'll continue on until the day I can't.
Besides if sheep were to go on draw I'd probably never get the chance to hunt another in my life.

[209x50]

The loss is the freedom and choice of how you want to experience your mountain sheep hunt. Options are a nice thing! Once that is gone it will be an enormous task to claw it back!

The loss is the shared experience with my son on future horseback hunts!

Why change what isn't broken?! Give me a break!! Like I said in my previous post, odds are that backpack hunts account for the majority of successful sheep kills anyhow.

I you looked at the gun bill the same way as you look at this, we'd all be left with only spears to hunt with.

What would you lose?? To hunt by your chosen mode of transportation riding a horse. The ATV guys are on their last legs and will be out of the mountains completely very soon. That writing is on the wall.
No one is stopping you from hunting with your son and according to your own odds you will be more successful.
About a hundred or two posts ago when people were rushing out to send letters to SRD on how to restrict sheep hunting I cautioned patience and recommended that SRD have to produce a study that proved anything really needed to be done. I said then be careful about opening the door for fear of what might walk through it. Nope you all figured for sure we need more and old rams on the mountain. I was slammed for not agreeing with the various waiting periods or levels of punishment that were vaunted and constantly asked what my idea was. Well now you have it and you still aren't happy LOL!
I had a little insight repeated to me that shows a lot of horse sense by the originator. I paraphrase a bit:
"A one year wait worked for 20 years and now instead of trying a 2 year wait we have to jump straight to 5 years?"
Hmm...

[Tundra Monkey]

It would be interesting to see what the cost of an outfitted sheep hunt would go to when they start using helicopter drops to get the equipment and men in there. :lol:

About $3500 split between 2 guys if it's private :D

Outfitted.....about $20 000.....but I'm talking dalls :)

tm

[Tonto]

So if your not worried than lets give it a try. I'll tell you this I'm surpised at the support I've got. I need to draft a letter for Rob Corrigan and get it sent in.

I can see it now.
AO writer and OQ host spearheads drive to ban horseback riding in the mountains.
Have at her!!!

[sheepguide]

What would you lose?? To hunt by your chosen mode of transportation riding a horse. The ATV guys are on their last legs and will be out of the mountains completely very soon. That writing is on the wall.
No one is stopping you from hunting with your son and according to your own odds you will be more successful.
About a hundred or two posts ago when people were rushing out to send letters to SRD on how to restrict sheep hunting I cautioned patience and recommended that SRD have to produce a study that proved anything really needed to be done. I said then be careful about opening the door for fear of what might walk through it. Nope you all figured for sure we need more and old rams on the mountain. I was slammed for not agreeing with the various waiting periods or levels of punishment that were vaunted and constantly asked what my idea was. Well now you have it and you still aren't happy LOL!
I had a little insight repeated to me that shows a lot of horse sense by the originator. I paraphrase a bit:
"A one year wait worked for 20 years and now instead of trying a 2 year wait we have to jump straight to 5 years?"
Hmm...

Maybe you should go to the YaHa on a long weekend in June when no hunters are around and bring up your ideas. I bet Sandi will be hosting the show on her own.
You keep talking about the use of no horses as a means to improve hunting but you are really taking a huge family orientated summer activity away from thousands of people that never pick up a gun.
Summer use in non hunting seasons is alot higher than what hunters are using.

And you say the writing is on the wall about all ATVs being out of the mountains... where is this wall? The last place you flushed one of your best thoughts.

SG

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

guys guys its all very simple, stop all sheep hunting for canadians, only allow paid guides and outfitters ,bring in non resident alians, at a cost to the outfitters and guides , of 2,ooo,ooo per sheep, out of the guides and outfitters personal bank accounts,payable to the alberta government, then only alow the guides and outfitters to charge 2,ooo per hunt,simple, no one enters no, one hunts in the mountains & our wild sheep, let them go to some sheep rancher , and shoot domestic sheep ,lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::simpley just cutout all Rocky mountain big horn sheep hunting for 25 years in canada , no hunting or picture takeing , nuthing then after 25 years only allow americans and eruopeans to hunt only the biggest sheep, OH for a price that is. now isnt that simple, what seems to be the problem:huh:, this can be arranged , in just one coffee shop afternoon by our finest polaticians:lol::lol:completely end all sheep hunting and all arguemental discussions about it:lol::lol:

[Huntnut]

:lol:

I guess I may have originally started all of this with my statement about foot access only. I was only offering a different idea to making sheep hunting better as some on here seem to want to find it easier to kill a big ram. I could care less about horses being used to sheep hunt. As I've stated numerous times I DO NOT want to see any changes! I think it's fine the way it is. But one way to improve sheep hunting is to limit access. That way the harder a hunter works to get farther back into the mountains the better his chance of killing a big ram. The farther back you go the less hunters. That way no one has to stop hunting sheep and if you want one you just have work for it. I think you get the idea. I don't like the idea of not ever being able to hunt sheep because I've already shot one, a 5 year wait or any other changes proposed on here.


X2

Why fix what ain't broken???

[Vindalbakken]

SG, are you having trouble following the program? 209 is not talking about banning horses from the mountains. He is talking about banning horses from hunting sheep - solely for the purpose of restricting access to the sheep which should accomplish the purpose of providing older, more mature rams for those who wish to continue hunting them under the new restrictions. Personally I would favor something along these lines than putting the hunt on a draw or making unreasonable wait times between hunts - That is assuming that anything needs to be done in the first place.

I do not believe that we should be restricting hunting opportunities nor restricting access simply to make the odds of an older ram higher. There seem to be enough legal rams to go around, the resource is not suffering, and some folks actually still take big rams. If it isn't broke.....

[209x50]

Where did I ever say anything about banning horses from the mountains , - other than in hunting season?
The precedent for this has been set where atvs/snowmobiles are banned in hunting season and snowmobiles are allowed into the mountains after hunting season.

[209x50]

Thank you, you beat me to the draw. and yes "if it ain't broke..."

[sheepguide]

Where did I ever say anything about banning horses from the mountains , - other than in hunting season?
The precedent for this has been set where atvs/snowmobiles are banned in hunting season and snowmobiles are allowed into the mountains after hunting season.

So then your saying them guys that trail ride and never hunt must from Aug. to Dec. sit at home because of hunting season.

The reason mountain zones are open in winter was to allow ski dooing opertunities. Atvers just are able to enjoy it because of low snow levels. It wasnt originaly intended for atvs.

and it had zero to do with hunting it had to do with seasons as it shuts down in the spring. They went with the idea of less disturbance when the ground is frozen. Not because of the number of hunters or animals hunted!!!!

[buddyhunter]

So if your not worried than lets give it a try. I'll tell you this I'm surpised at the support I've got. I need to draft a letter for Rob Corrigan and get it sent in.

A word of advice for writing the letter, make sure you don't call Rob obtuse or a bafoon as you so frequently refer your fellow hunter as.


Since you are so strong about your stance on the sheep hunting issue and the fact that you don't want to see hunters lose out on more opportunity, it is quite clear that there is no way that you would be pro-the banning of horses in the mountains. So it's obvious that you made that statement to stir the pot. Well done.:rolleyes:

[buddyhunter]

Where did I ever say anything about banning horses from the mountains , - other than in hunting season?
The precedent for this has been set where atvs/snowmobiles are banned in hunting season and snowmobiles are allowed into the mountains after hunting season.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

you bash everyones ideas in the sheep thread the best YOU can come up with is ban horses:lol::lol:

That is Rich, no pun intended

[209x50]

A word of advice for writing the letter, make sure you don't call Rob obtuse or a bafoon as you so frequently refer your fellow hunter as.


Since you are so strong about your stance on the sheep hunting issue and the fact that you don't want to see hunters lose out on more opportunity, it is quite clear that there is no way that you would be pro-the banning of horses in the mountains. So it's obvious that you made that statement to stir the pot. Well done.:rolleyes:
Duly noted I won't use the word obtuse or buffoon, which I've used once each here not "frequently".
I've nearly got the letter drafted and yes I will be sending it why wouldn't I? I think it is a great way to put more sheep on the mountain without losing anything.

[shooter]

What would you lose?? To hunt by your chosen mode of transportation riding a horse. The ATV guys are on their last legs and will be out of the mountains completely very soon. That writing is on the wall.
No one is stopping you from hunting with your son and according to your own odds you will be more successful.
About a hundred or two posts ago when people were rushing out to send letters to SRD on how to restrict sheep hunting I cautioned patience and recommended that SRD have to produce a study that proved anything really needed to be done. I said then be careful about opening the door for fear of what might walk through it. Nope you all figured for sure we need more and old rams on the mountain. I was slammed for not agreeing with the various waiting periods or levels of punishment that were vaunted and constantly asked what my idea was. Well now you have it and you still aren't happy LOL!
I had a little insight repeated to me that shows a lot of horse sense by the originator. I paraphrase a bit:
"A one year wait worked for 20 years and now instead of trying a 2 year wait we have to jump straight to 5 years?"
Hmm...

I'm actually quite happy with our current sheep hunting system and I didn't put one comment in one the other thread. I have in the past commented on the fact that the "Super Tags 437 and 408" should be altered so that at some point the young new hunters may have the same opportunities that some of us have had. Right now that is totally impossible unless they live four or five lifetimes!
Severeal years of tags and I still haven't had to miss a year!! So the 1 year rule works great for me :D. When I do shoot a ram, it will be a ram that I will be happy with and I'll do my duty and sit for the year.
As far as the ATV things goes I'm of the same opinion and didn't say otherwise. It's sad the atver's are being cut out of some areas but that I believe is no fault of most hunters. I would think that the "weekend warriors" have done the damage for the atv groups. You don't ever see any news of may long trail riders (horse) ripping up the country.
Also the success is the topping on the cake but the memories of a trip matter that much more to me. Some of my most cherished memories are hunts where no animal was harvested. I was born and raised with horses, have horses now and want to be able to share the same experience with my own wife and kids just as my folks did with me....so it's something that I'm very passionate about.

[shooter]

Duly noted I won't use the word obtuse or buffoon, which I've used once each here not "frequently".
I've nearly got the letter drafted and yes I will be sending it why wouldn't I? I think it is a great way to put more sheep on the mountain without losing anything.

Maybe to even out the playing field even more, we should limit everyone to fixed power bino's of which would all be the same and fixed 4 power rifle scopes and have a no swarovski or other high quality spotter rule too. :rolleye2:

That would help level things out as not as much game would be spotted. And not one lost day of hunting as you suggest!

[209x50]

I'm actually quite happy with our current sheep hunting system and I didn't put one comment in one the other thread. I have in the past commented on the fact that the "Super Tags 437 and 408" should be altered so that at some point the young new hunters may have the same opportunities that some of us have had. Right now that is totally impossible unless they live four or five lifetimes!
Severeal years of tags and I still haven't had to miss a year!! So the 1 year rule works great for me :D. When I do shoot a ram, it will be a ram that I will be happy with and I'll do my duty and sit for the year.
As far as the ATV things goes I'm of the same opinion and didn't say otherwise. It's sad the atver's are being cut out of some areas but that I believe is no fault of most hunters. I would think that the "weekend warriors" have done the damage for the atv groups. You don't ever see any news of may long trail riders (horse) ripping up the country.
Also the success is the topping on the cake but the memories of a trip matter that much more to me. Some of my most cherished memories are hunts where no animal was harvested. I was born and raised with horses, have horses now and want to be able to share the same experience with my own wife and kids just as my folks did with me....so it's something that I'm very passionate about.
OK, you'll pardon me and accept my apology for saying "you all" in a generic way that you took to mean literally "you".
I understand your feelings and many times more atvers are feeling your pain having already lost the chance to pass those memories on with their kids. You'll still have the ability to camp with horses in the summer when there is no hunting or anything killed which you've said are some of the most cherished memories anyway.
Its all for the good of the herd, how could anyone be against that?

[209x50]

Maybe to even out the playing field even more, we should limit everyone to fixed power bino's of which would all be the same and fixed 4 power rifle scopes and have a no swarovski or other high quality spotter rule too. :rolleye2:

That would help level things out as not as much game would be spotted. And not one lost day of hunting as you suggest!
Sure that works for me if you think it will help put more sheep on the mountain.
I mean it is all about the the sheep right? We are all willing to feel a little pain if it helps the herd, right?

[shooter]

OK, you'll pardon me and accept my apology for saying "you all" in a generic way that you took to mean literally "you".
I understand your feelings and many times more atvers are feeling your pain having already lost the chance to pass those memories on with their kids. You'll still have the ability to camp with horses in the summer when there is no hunting or anything killed which you've said are some of the most cherished memories anyway.
Its all for the good of the herd, how could anyone be against that?

lol... see my previous post as well "for the good of the herd" and "how could anyone be against that".

Where does the line get drawn then? Mountain bikes get people further and can leave a footprint as well.
Out of all the sheep hunters in the province how many have horses or use them?

[shooter]

Sure that works for me if you think it will help put more sheep on the mountain.
I mean it is all about the the sheep right? We are all willing to feel a little pain if it helps the herd, right?

I have no sheep issues just this horse ban

[TangoKilo]

209X50,

Its very sad to see how little tolerance you have for other user groups in the mountains. EVERYONE traveling in the backcountry has an impact. I agree that the impact needs to be minimized as much as possible, but not at the exclusion of a particular method of access. Banning horses, ATV's or other means of access to the back country is not the answer.

As hunters we have strength in numbers. Sheep hunters are no difference. If we start to fragment our community by method of access to the backcountry, it won't be very long before all access to the backcountry is banned.


1st BAN the ATV's
2nd BAN the horses
3nd BAN mountain bikers
4th BAN the hikers

This looks like a very similar path to the anti gun and anti hunting lobby!!
Divide and conquer.

209X50 are you an Anit?

Who wins if NOBODY gets to access the backcountry?

[sheephunter]

209X50,

Its very sad to see how little tolerance you have for other user groups in the mountains. EVERYONE traveling in the backcountry has an impact. I agree that the impact needs to be minimized as much as possible, but not at the exclusion of a particular method of access. Banning horses, ATV's or other means of access to the back country is not the answer.

As hunters we have strength in numbers. Sheep hunters are no difference. If we start to fragment our community by method of access to the backcountry, it won't be very long before all access to the backcountry is banned.


1st BAN the ATV's
2nd BAN the horses
3nd BAN mountain bikers
4th BAN the hikers

This looks like a very similar path to the anti gun and anti hunting lobby!!
Divide and conquer.

209X50 are you an Anit?

Who wins if NOBODY gets to access the backcountry?

While I agree with what you say Tango (well other than 209 being an anti)...there have been a lot of sheep hunters on the ban the ATV bandwagon in the two previous sheep threads. I never heard any of that aimed at the environmental damage they do but at the success their users enjoy and how banning them would increase sheep numbers and age. From what I'm seeing, that's all 209 is saying as well except about horses but none of the ban the ATV crowd were branded as antis. I agree with 209 that banning horses in hunting season would decrease the sheep harvest but for the reasons you outline above, I'm not a proponent but it seems to me, if you fight for horses in the backcountry for hunting that you need to fight for ATVs as well. I think 209 eluded to that with his becareful what door you open as you never know what's on the other side.

While I don't agree with his idea, I don't look at his comments as antagonistic but rather thought provoking. I know they made me think. It seems others didn't take that course.

[209x50]

209X50,

Its very sad to see how little tolerance you have for other user groups in the mountains. EVERYONE traveling in the backcountry has an impact. I agree that the impact needs to be minimized as much as possible, but not at the exclusion of a particular method of access. Banning horses, ATV's or other means of access to the back country is not the answer.

As hunters we have strength in numbers. Sheep hunters are no difference. If we start to fragment our community by method of access to the backcountry, it won't be very long before all access to the backcountry is banned.


1st BAN the ATV's
2nd BAN the horses
3nd BAN mountain bikers
4th BAN the hikers

This looks like a very similar path to the anti gun and anti hunting lobby!!
Divide and conquer.

209X50 are you an Anit?

Who wins if NOBODY gets to access the backcountry?

Tango are you anti sheep? Are you not willing to give up your atv or horse for the good of the resource and put more sheep on the mountain?

I had the unmitigated gall to disagree with the 5 year plan and the 8 level discipline plan and all the other plans on the last thread that recommended for cutting back sheep hunting. I was accused of not being concerned about the resources, not being a "real" sheep hunter and worse yet having driven an Argo through a beaver dam. Well that was the old me and today I stand before you a new man. I have thrown off the modern trappings that shackled me down and have turned over a new leaf for all to see.
Yes it is all about the sheep and how could you be against anything that was for the good of the sheep?

[shooter]

there have been a lot of sheep hunters on the ban the ATV bandwagon in the two previous sheep threads.
if you fight for horses in the backcountry for hunting that you need to fight for ATVs as well. I think 209 eluded to that with his becareful what door you open as you never know what's on the other side.


Sheep,
I've been out of the ATV's for a couple years now so pardon my lack of knowledge..... are ATV areas being reduced for hunting only? I would have though it would be for all atv users due to some of the destruction they are causing and unfortunately the outdoorsmen suffer from the wind stroked brush. Take the Ghost areas.... Has that been reduced for hunters only or is for all?

[sheephunter]

Sheep,
I've been out of the ATV's for a couple years now so pardon my lack of knowledge..... are ATV areas being reduced for hunting only? I would have though it would be for all atv users due to some of the destruction they are causing and unfortunately the outdoorsmen suffer from the wind stroked brush. Take the Ghost areas.... Has that been reduced for hunters only or is for all?

There are some seasonal closure that happen to coincide with hunting season in some areas. I'm not sure anyone ever admitted it was to prevent hunters from accessing the backcountry but the dates make it suspicious at the least. The Ghost was closed because it was turned into a Wildland Park but areas further north faced specific ATV regulations.

[sheepguide]

There are some seasonal closure that happen to coincide with hunting season in some areas. I'm not sure anyone ever admitted it was to prevent hunters from accessing the backcountry but the dates make it suspicious at the least. The Ghost was closed because it was turned into a Wildland Park but areas further north faced specific ATV regulations.

Just wondering where these dates coincide with hunting seasons?
Seems to me that most are closed from march till december. How does that even remotely coincide with hunting seasons? Seems to coincide with the ground being frozen though.
Unless im missing some of hunting season:mad2:

[shooter]

There are some seasonal closure that happen to coincide with hunting season in some areas. I'm not sure anyone ever admitted it was to prevent hunters from accessing the backcountry but the dates make it suspicious at the least. The Ghost was closed because it was turned into a Wildland Park but areas further north faced specific ATV regulations.

Thanks, like I say some of the atv regulations are news to me.
I also agree though that if these rules have been put in place to simply keep sheep hunters further away from specific areas, we hunters should be against it.
I understand some of the areas being shut due to destruction and have seen it first hand. Too bad that all responsible atv goer's get punished for what has not been their doing.

209,
By limiting horse access to remote areas by use of horses, will that not have a larger impact on the easier access areas as far as legal sheep go? Will the sheep not figure it out like the park sheep? Safe here but not there! I would think all the old horse people would stay closer to road and then create more of a crowded hunt for the previous backpacker hunters. The quality and quantity of sheep within foot access would dwindle as the pressure would increase greatly.

[TangoKilo]

Tango are you anti sheep? Are you not willing to give up your atv or horse for the good of the resource and put more sheep on the mountain?

I had the unmitigated gall to disagree with the 5 year plan and the 8 level discipline plan and all the other plans on the last thread that recommended for cutting back sheep hunting. I was accused of not being concerned about the resources, not being a "real" sheep hunter and worse yet having driven an Argo through a beaver dam. Well that was the old me and today I stand before you a new man. I have thrown off the modern trappings that shackled me down and have turned over a new leaf for all to see.
Yes it is all about the sheep and how could you be against anything that was for the good of the sheep?

NO and NO!
I am not anti sheep, I am pro reasonable access for various user groups for the purpose of sheep hunting. And to be honest, I have never had the privilidge of hunting sheep, or even accessing the mountains Via horse or ATV. I hunt primarily on foot, and use a mountain bike wherever possible. Unlike you however, I can coexist with other users regardless of their mode of transportation.

My fear is that if you ban horses or ATV traffic from an area, then hikers, mountain bikers and all access is not very far behind.

I'm not too sure what happened to you in the last thread to hurt your feelers so darn much. I no nothing about 5 year plans or 8 year levels or whatever you were accused of. I could basically care less what happened in the last thread. We are now discussing the use and ban of horses for hunting sheep. A ban that I am completely against, and a ban that you have yet to provide a convincing argument supporting.

Please explain to our membership how the removal of one user group will put more sheep on the mountain?

[albertadave]

If you took my comment about being obtuse (def: not quick or alert in perception) as an insult then I apologize.
Many ideas have be pushed forward in this or the other thread on how to improve sheep numbers. Most have been suggestions that outlined curtailing opportunity. Removing horses and ATVs form the mountains only makes it harder to hunt sheep or elk but doesn't remove any seasons or tags. Easy access has been the detriment of sheep populations and making that access a little more arduous would mean less people in the mountains, less sheep killed and better populations with perhaps better trophy potential. The line that has been used by so many to defend their proposal has been "what can it hurt and why shouldn't we try for the good of the sheep?" Well what could it hurt to try?
Well for starters, and I admit I am being completely selfish here, it would hurt me. I use all 3 modes of transportation mentioned in this thread, foot, horse and atv, to hunt sheep. I enjoy all 3, in their respective applications, immensely, and would hate the thought of giving up any of them. I suppose banning horses for back country hunting could result in more sheep on the mountain, but there's already sheep there, and personally, I don't think it would be worth it to have my kids miss out on the experience of hunting the mountains on horseback just to put a few more rams out in the hills. 209, I hope that you're just playing a bit of the "devil's advocate" here because we all know the importance of the hunting/shooting/fishing/anything-outdoor-related-that-has-any-form-of-use-or-impact communities sticking together, and the potential danger of singling out, and banning, one particular aspect or activity.

[Rocks]

Well I may as well jump onto the ban wagon :evilgrin:... since I'm partial to horses:D and wouldn't like it if they got banned, I have a much better solution - we'll make sheep season archery only ;), now that will definitely increase the numbers of mature rams (and ewes, :lol:).

[sheepguide]

Well I may as well jump onto the ban wagon :evilgrin:... since I'm partial to horses:D and wouldn't like it if they got banned, I have a much better solution - we'll make sheep season archery only ;), now that will definitely increase the numbers of mature rams (and ewes, :lol:).

There ya go. And no one looses out on seasons and tags.:lol:

[Vindalbakken]

Well I may as well jump onto the ban wagon :evilgrin:... since I'm partial to horses:D and wouldn't like it if they got banned, I have a much better solution - we'll make sheep season archery only ;), now that will definitely increase the numbers of mature rams (and ewes, :lol:).

That would apply to non-res as well?

[Rocks]

That would apply to non-res as well?

I think we'll limit those dastardly non-residents to traditional archery only...

[sheepguide]

I think we'll limit those dastardly non-residents to traditional archery only...

Now we are getting some where!!!!

[JustinC]

I think this is getting a little crazy. Like I said earlier. we all have the meens to a hourse,atv,and our feet.You pick what you want and go buy it or just use it.:evilgrin::evilgrin:

[209x50]

Well for starters, and I admit I am being completely selfish here, it would hurt me. I use all 3 modes of transportation mentioned in this thread, foot, horse and atv, to hunt sheep. I enjoy all 3, in their respective applications, immensely, and would hate the thought of giving up any of them. I suppose banning horses for back country hunting could result in more sheep on the mountain, but there's already sheep there, and personally, I don't think it would be worth it to have my kids miss out on the experience of hunting the mountains on horseback just to put a few more rams out in the hills. 209, I hope that you're just playing a bit of the "devil's advocate" here because we all know the importance of the hunting/shooting/fishing/anything-outdoor-related-that-has-any-form-of-use-or-impact communities sticking together, and the potential danger of singling out, and banning, one particular aspect or activity.
Winner, winner chicken dinner! God no one even laughed at the born again stuff?!
Yes we need to all stick together and quit rushing to help the government take our rights and sheep away from us.
All those people that figured it was their right to change the sheep herd to their vision were acting in a very selfish way. They may not think it was so or perhaps are so blinded by their passion that they didn't see it, but it was very selfish. They want to hunt sheep on their terms and they feel it is their right to make you and I hunt sheep on their terms. Well that is great but so does everyone else. We all have a vison and a preferred way of hunting. Funny how I was a labelled jerk and accussed of not supporting putting more sheep on the mountain when I wasn't agreeing with the plans people were rushing to have rammed down our throats. Not so funny when my plan to put more sheep on the mountain eliminated horses was it? No one can argue that eliminating horses wouldn’t put more sheep on the mountain, it is easy for even the simplest to see, but at what cost? The same goes for all the plans, at what cost? We need to know first if there is a problem and what is the motivation for the AFGA Resolution from Zone 1. And when the heII did the AFGA get into curbing hunting opportunities for its members?
Nothing in our sport is untouchable and if you sit idly by when others in the sport lose then you deserve what you get when it is your turn, and we all get a turn. All the "real" sheep hunters, (good lord the arrogance) so ready to not ALLOW other hunters to have any input into managing THEIR animals. Only idiots allow special interests to divide them from their brothers. You think about the 100,000 hunters that bought a whitetail tag last year how hard would it be to organise them into agreeing with a horse ban for hunting in the mountains, especially if they were offered a couple more weeks of deer season? We the sheep hunters need them, their voices and their votes to be heard and to defend our niche of the hunting sport because in today’s world 2000 voices is nothing compared to 100,000.
Thanks Dave for thinking and speaking up, there is nothing wrong with wanting to hunt with horses, atv's or shoot a 6 year old ram if it is legal.

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

:lol:Ban them All BAN BAN BAN :lol:

[Mrs.SheepGuide]

I think this is getting a little crazy. Like I said earlier. we all have the meens to a hourse,atv,and our feet.You pick what you want and go buy it or just use it.:evilgrin::evilgrin:

Exactly!!!! Everyone has there own likes and dis-likes. Quit complaining and arguing about it like a bunch of high school teenagers. Everyone has there own oppinion and rightly so. That is there right, everyone is allowed to voice there own oppinion. It's a free country. So just agree to dis-agree and SUCK IT UP. When someone gives there oppinion or thought on the topic, doesn't mean there saying " Im right and your wrong so suck it" It's just there thought on the topic. :mad2:

[sheepguide]

Winner, winner chicken dinner! God no one even laughed at the born again stuff?!
Yes we need to all stick together and quit rushing to help the government take our rights and sheep away from us.
All those people that figured it was their right to change the sheep herd to their vision were acting in a very selfish way. They may not think it was so or perhaps are so blinded by their passion that they didn't see it, but it was very selfish. They want to hunt sheep on their terms and they feel it is their right to make you and I hunt sheep on their terms. Well that is great but so does everyone else. We all have a vison and a preferred way of hunting. Funny how I was a labelled jerk and accussed of not supporting putting more sheep on the mountain when I wasn't agreeing with the plans people were rushing to have rammed down our throats. Not so funny when my plan to put more sheep on the mountain eliminated horses was it? No one can argue that eliminating horses wouldn’t put more sheep on the mountain, it is easy for even the simplest to see, but at what cost? The same goes for all the plans, at what cost? We need to know first if there is a problem and what is the motivation for the AFGA Resolution from Zone 1. And when the heII did the AFGA get into curbing hunting opportunities for its members?
Nothing in our sport is untouchable and if you sit idly by when others in the sport lose then you deserve what you get when it is your turn, and we all get a turn. All the "real" sheep hunters, (good lord the arrogance) so ready to not ALLOW other hunters to have any input into managing THEIR animals. Only idiots allow special interests to divide them from their brothers. You think about the 100,000 hunters that bought a whitetail tag last year how hard would it be to organise them into agreeing with a horse ban for hunting in the mountains, especially if they were offered a couple more weeks of deer season? We the sheep hunters need them, their voices and their votes to be heard and to defend our niche of the hunting sport because in today’s world 2000 voices is nothing compared to 100,000.
Thanks Dave for thinking and speaking up, there is nothing wrong with wanting to hunt with horses, atv's or shoot a 6 year old ram if it is legal.

I think things went wrong when guys lost track of what was portrayed as a thought not a problem... more mature sheep out there. No one ever said our sheep hunting was doomed. A few were having discussions on what it would take to do this. NOT THAT IT HAD TO BE DONE. Sure alot of guys want it done ad some dont. It was only being discussed what ways may work!!! Then guess what happened.... Some superstar came in and said all ideas were wrong!! Then what happened... people got defensive and side tracked thinking someone was stating there was a problem!!
JMHO
SG

[Rocks]

Winner, winner chicken dinner! God no one even laughed at the born again stuff?!

I laughed...

I was beginning to question whether you were serious or not :lol: as your posts went on though.

And since 209 came clean, before anyone thinks I was serious about the bow only season I wasn't...:wave:

[sheepguide]

I laughed...

I was beginning to question whether you were serious or not :lol: as your posts went on though.

And since 209 came clean, before anyone thinks I was serious about the bow only season I wasn't...:wave:

:lol::lol:Seems some one switched directions after getting little backing!!

[Vindalbakken]

Dang, I wanted to see SheepGuide gearing up for some archery hunts!!!!

The guide has to wear the horns and challenge the big ram to a contest so that the client can get in close. Then there is the maneuvering to get the ram broadside to the client. Couple of head shots to keep his interest up - and thwack!

[sheepguide]

Dang, I wanted to see SheepGuide gearing up for some archery hunts!!!!

The guide has to wear the horns and challenge the big ram to a contest so that the client can get in close. Then there is the maneuvering to get the ram broadside to the client. Couple of head shots to keep his interest up - and thwack!

Im game ill try most things once:lol:

[209x50]

The amount of support I got actually frightened me. I'm not sure if it was a reflection of people choosing sides or what... comments like and I quote 'Let the "real" uber sheep hunters show us all how easy it is on foot.'
This would be so easy to do only the near sighted would laugh it off. Perhaps it is already to late.

[shooter]

Winner, winner chicken dinner! God no one even laughed at the born again stuff?!


Haha! Well you sure had me steamed!! My wifes a bit pi$$y with you as well!! lol She's been listening to me vent all night!!

But back to what you said and tango said.... we need to stick together otherwise our options will be cut out.

[sheepguide]

The amount of support I got actually frightened me. I'm not sure if it was a reflection of people choosing sides or what... comments like and I quote 'Let the "real" uber sheep hunters show us all how easy it is on foot.'
This would be so easy to do only the near sighted would laugh it off. Perhaps it is already to late.

Oh let me guess them comments were all PM's LOL :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
maybe the other "uber" sheep hunters should show the rest how easy it is on horses.:lol:

Oh and I do beleive we all should stick together also hence my sticking up for Atv's, Horses and Backpackers oh and Non Hunters

[Matt L.]

209X50, how far into the mountains do you hike when you're hunting sheep?

[bruceba]

The title of this thread got some cogs and wheels turning enhanced by the influence of the master of disaster and his stories[ thanks tree] Watch for pictures and video next fall. As was mentioned earlier in this thread your probably only gonna get 1 shot. Sit back and buckle up this fall I sense a rodeo about to take place.:D

[forest walker]

I love hunting on horses. I am too old to do it now but I enjoyed it when I was younger. I can't ever see a close to the use of horses being allowed.