Metis hunting rights?

[trooper]

I don't know if this is a topic that should be brought to the forum,:thinking-006: but I'd like to hear some discussion on this, I guess it's a real can 'o worms:argue2:

[sickfast]

They should have the same rights as us!!!!! To pay for hunting tags !!! If not in my eyes they are just potchers.
Can O worms is now wide open!!!:snapoutofit:

[Dick284]

They should have the same rights as us!!!!! To pay for hunting tags !!! If not in my eyes they are just poachers.
Can O worms is now wide open!!!:snapoutofit:

There I fixed that for you.

Can of worms is a understatement.

Far too many pages of this forum have been dedicated to this subject in the past for me to do justice to them by re open some mighty nasty wounds

[trooper]

Sorry guys, I'm new here, so I wasn't aware of previous posts on this subject. Maybe I should delete my post?:thinking-006::sign0161:

[Thickhorn]

Unregulated killing of game is just that. It doesn't matter if it's called poaching or subsistence hunting or anything else, in the end it's not fair to the environment, the animals, or the people - this generation or the one's to come. If somebody's half-ancestors got screwed over in the past, well that's horrible but there will never be a reason good enough to warrant limitless killing of our natural resources. It's BS. If, because your half-ancestors used to hunt (so did mine, by the way, just on a different continent) you feel you deserve to hunt and kill more game than I do, giver, but lets be realistic about it and have limits, licenses, and tags to make sure we're not shooting our kids in the foot.

[Dick284]

Sorry guys, I'm new here, so I wasn't aware of previous posts on this subject. Maybe I should delete my post?:thinking-006::sign0161:

Nope, just try out the search function, and have a good long read.

[redranger15]

Might aswell lock this sucker up right now, we all know whats coming and how it's going to end.Blah, blah, blah, all should be equal, blah, blah ,blah, not fair, hunt with a stick and sting ,blah, blah,poachers and so on. Lock it up.:1041:

[outlaw'd]

Might aswell lock this sucker up right now, we all know whats coming and how it's going to end.Blah, blah, blah, all should be equal, blah, blah ,blah, not fair, hunt with a stick and sting ,blah, blah,poachers and so on. Lock it up.:1041:

x2 ............. otherwise here we go again:fighting0074:

[Dakota369]

Is everyone so pessimistic? Can we not have a civil intelligent adult conversation without all the borderline racist comments, accusations of racism etc? :argue2:

In reality, you will find most on this board, including the Metis that come here agree that it should be a level playing field, and everyone should be subject to the same rules and regulations. Let's face it, everyone herein Canada :scared0018:comes from somewhere, (even the natives at some point and time) and for the most part one of the deciding factors in making the trip was due to be out from under someones rule! All of our ancestors at some point and time were subject to discrimination, and persecution from another group................ so why can we not all get along and just be equal. Oh wait....... I know ........ it's the politicians without any balls.......and I don't mean the few women who have been successful in the political arena, but the left wing Liberals who think that everything in life should be handed to them by the government on a silver platter. I am all for helping those who truly need it, but way to many who could be self sufficient choose not to be and hang off the public teat far too often.

[FallAirFever]

Unregulated killing of game is just that. It doesn't matter if it's called poaching or subsistence hunting or anything else, in the end it's not fair to the environment, the animals, or the people - this generation or the one's to come. If somebody's half-ancestors got screwed over in the past, well that's horrible but there will never be a reason good enough to warrant limitless killing of our natural resources. It's BS. If, because your half-ancestors used to hunt (so did mine, by the way, just on a different continent) you feel you deserve to hunt and kill more game than I do, giver, but lets be realistic about it and have limits, licenses, and tags to make sure we're not shooting our kids in the foot.

Very well said!
I am sure it wont take long for this thread to get derailed... but

I have a very hard time understanding why the Metis hunt can not be regulated ie: number of tags and some season restrictions and still allow enough hunting for subsistence.

Ideally we could all be treated equally and abide by the same rules but that is probably wishfull thinking.

[Okotokian]

I don't know if this is a topic that should be brought to the forum,:thinking-006: but I'd like to hear some discussion on this, I guess it's a real can 'o worms:argue2:

There are 27 other threads on AO on this topic you should read as background, all filled with vitriol and rage, and almost all closed down by the mods in the end because people ended up acting like 2 year olds. Happy reading.

I guess we need to go through this again every few months....

[fish_e_o]

They should have the same rights as us!!!!! To pay for hunting tags !!! If not in my eyes they are just potchers.
Can O worms is now wide open!!!:snapoutofit:

maybe they shouldn't pay but they should be regulated. without doing so there is no way to manage endangered wildlife.

[yamaha 1]

Is everyone so pessimistic? Can we not have a civil intelligent adult conversation without all the borderline racist comments, accusations of racism etc? :argue2:

In reality, you will find most on this board, including the Metis that come here agree that it should be a level playing field, and everyone should be subject to the same rules and regulations. Let's face it, everyone herein Canada :scared0018:comes from somewhere, (even the natives at some point and time) and for the most part one of the deciding factors in making the trip was due to be out from under someones rule! All of our ancestors at some point and time were subject to discrimination, and persecution from another group................ so why can we not all get along and just be equal. Oh wait....... I know ........ it's the politicians without any balls.......and I don't mean the few women who have been successful in the political arena, but the left wing Liberals who think that everything in life should be handed to them by the government on a silver platter. I am all for helping those who truly need it, but way to many who could be self sufficient choose not to be and hang off the public teat far too often.

x2 I agree with you 100% about the Government having no ball....they have no problem taking things any from us but give every thing to the Indian.Come on enough is enough. I heard this morrning from a fellow employee that the Gov. is going to give a large sum of money to all the tready Indians. The reasoning is that the Gov. promised every family a horse and a cart in the original tready and never came through.Now they are going to make good by giving them thousands of dollars.If this is true,when is it going to stop.My family has been here for over a 100 years and WE get nothing.:angry3:

[Thickhorn]

so why can we not all get along and just be equal. Oh wait....... I know ........ it's the politicians without any balls.....

There is realistically only one group of people that stand a chance in changing these laws for the better, and that is the Metis and Native people. In my opinion, any outdoors-enjoying Metis or native that is currently NOT fighting these backwards laws is as much to blame for the problem as the governments who set it up in the first place, or the governments that refuse to rethink this issues.

Believe me, if I thought I could stand up and fight this to my death WITHOUT looking like a jealous, racist white man, I would.

The point is not that Metis and natives get these 'rights' and other people don't; the point is that unregulated killing of our game is allowed, and happening. I don't want the right to kill as many animals, whenever and wherever I want, and neither should anybody. I 'm happy with the rights I have, because those rights make sure our animals will be around for the next generations.

[fish_e_o]

There is realistically only one group of people that stand a chance in changing these laws for the better, and that is the Metis and Native people. In my opinion, any outdoors-enjoying Metis or native that is currently NOT fighting these backwards laws is as much to blame for the problem as the governments who set it up in the first place, or the governments that refuse to rethink this issues.

Believe me, if I thought I could stand up and fight this to my death WITHOUT looking like a jealous, racist white man, I would.

The point is not that Metis and natives get these 'rights' and other people don't; the point is that unregulated killing of our game is allowed, and happening. I don't want the right to kill as many animals, whenever and wherever I want, and neither should anybody. I 'm happy with the rights I have, because those rights make sure our animals will be around for the next generations.

very well said

[/thread]

[209x50]

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/technology/Alberta+Metis+lawyers+urge+judge+outside/3186003/story.html

Alberta Metis lawyers urge judge to ‘go outside the box’



Final arguments begin in landmark Metis hunting case



By Darcy Henton, edmontonjournal.com June 23, 2010


Metis hunter Ron Jones poses with the antelope he shot near Suffield, Alberta, on January 26, 2008, in defiance of the province's decision to ban out-of-season hunting.

Photograph by: Bruce Edwards, edmontonjournal.com




MEDICINE HAT — Lawyers for Alberta Metis are urging a provincial court judge to "go outside the box" with a decision that goes beyond what the Supreme Court of Canada has ruled in previous Metis hunting cases.
Jean Teillet, a descendent of Metis leader Louis Riel, told judge Ted Fisher Tuesday that he need not link Metis hunting rights to specific communities or regions as judges have done in previous cases in other jurisdictions.
Alberta Metis were a mobile people who hunted across the plains and can't be restricted to hunting around settlements in northern Alberta, Teillet said.
"We think that you should get out of that box," she said in the first of three days of final arguments in a landmark Metis hunting trial that has stretched more than a year.
She rejected the province's contention that Metis have no constitutional right to hunt in southern Alberta because they didn't live there.
Teillet was arguing before about 50 Metis supporters from across Alberta and Saskatchewan.
Teillet said a ruling is necessary because a court decision can't be pulled back at the whim of a government.
Teillet said Alberta and Metis had a successful interim hunting agreement that the government unilaterally rescinded. "I think the evidence is pretty clear it fell victim to the winds of political change," she told the court.
The trial, which began in May 2009 in Medicine Hat, has heard from 35 witnesses, including six experts in Metis history. It is expected to conclude this week with final summations by lawyers for the Metis Nation of Alberta and the provincial government. There may not be a decision before the end of the year.
The key issue is not whether Metis have a constitutional right to hunt, but where they can exercise it.
The Alberta government says Metis, who primarily reside today in northern Alberta, can hunt in 160-kilometre radius of specific northern Alberta communities only, but the Metis say their rights to hunt should extend across the province.
Ron Jones, of Leduc, and Garry Hirsekorn, of Medicine Hat, initiated the court action more than two years ago when they killed animals out of season for food in community hunts staged by the Metis organization.
More than 25 other Metis hunters have also been charged with hunting illegally, and what happens in this case will determine if it is necessary for them to go to trial.
The charges stem from community hunts the Metis staged to force the matter into court after the province ended the interim hunting agreement that recognized that Metis could hunt, gather and fish for food anywhere in the province. That agreement was reached after the Supreme Court's 2003 Powley decision recognizing a Metis constitutional right to hunt.

So special rights aren't enough, they now wish for Extra special rights.

[bruceba]

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a145/b6extreme/flogging20dead20horse.jpg

[Jamie]

Bruce..
Why shy away from the discussion?

Sure we all know that it might end up "Locked up" but by you posting that silly comic, you are trying to deny people from learning about what has transpired and what may happen.

I think you are afraid of the ruling that may come down and are trying to dissuade some folks from openly discussing this travesty.

Don't keep silent on this one people. This is a VERY dangerous proposition.
Keep your comments to the subject at hand.


Jamie

[fish_e_o]

picture

it's comments like this that make the conversation unbearable. so please if you can't contribute just read.


209x50, i've never read that before, it's good to know that the courts are starting to recognize that sustenance hunting is just that. if they want to hunt for sport they should hunt like the rest of us. (i still believe that they should hunt in the same season with the same tags though)

[Dakota369]

If you are sustenance hunting, there is no reason why you cannot restrict your hunting period to coincide with the usual hunting season, which the biologists have deemed the best time to be hunting without putting the hunted animals under damaging or undue stress. Freezer technology is well distributed. My hunting for sustenance (as I hunt to eat, I am not a trophy hunter) is adequate so that I have deer all year round...... I see no reason why they should have a open season year round. This is especially evident in the spring when the animals are more vulnerable (limited food and water) or in the winter when even hunting them unsuccessfully can cause so much stress that they don't make it through the winter.

[209x50]

Bruce I believe you are Metis and the discussion makes you unhappy but I didn't think posting a newspaper article from earlier this week was in any way beating a dead horse.

[209x50]

If you are sustenance hunting, there is no reason why you cannot restrict your hunting period to coincide with the usual hunting season, which the biologists have deemed the best time to be hunting without putting the hunted animals under damaging or undue stress. Freezer technology is well distributed. My hunting for sustenance (as I hunt to eat, I am not a trophy hunter) is adequate so that I have deer all year round...... I see no reason why they should have a open season year round. This is especially evident in the spring when the animals are more vulnerable (limited food and water) or in the winter when even hunting them unsuccessfully can cause so much stress that they don't make it through the winter.
It's not so much that they can hunt year round, that is given. It is WHERE they can hunt year round that is in contest. The article lays it out pretty clear, the Metis themselves know they don't have the right to hunt all of Alberta but they are asking a judge to give them that right.

[wwbirds]

I know of several natives who take a doe mulie late in the season for meat and participate in draws for "trophy animals" just like the rest of us which I believe is the way it should be. As in all societies there are people who abuse rights and use "sustenance" to take any and all animals they encounter. the worst situation I have seen is a "status" individual who braggged and had the pictures to prove it that he has harvested many trophy animals over the course of years under his status. I think that is just plain wrong. These individuals give all staus people a bad name which is like the bad hunters making it impossible for all of us. If I was hunting for meat an antelope would probably be one of my last choices to filll the freezer.
Rob

[bruceba]

the Metis themselves know they don't have the right to hunt all of Alberta but they are asking a judge to give them that right.

When I see self proclaimed comments like this from the pruported higher intelect on this form that is when I realize you have your thoughts and I have mine and no amount of dialogue will change thought patterns. Yours or mine. I would how ever like to see some validaty put to your statement with some factual back up on exactly which Metis your talking about.

[noneck180]

If it's a "Right" that's what it is..a legal agreement given to peoples, that allow them the "Right" to the privileges defined in that "Right", and was given under circumstances that provided benefit to both sides at the time it was given.
Bitching like school kids is not going to change that,,the Government if they see fit may change the areas of hunting to , " Traditional Hunting Grounds" which are usually located in and around a Metis settlement.

[noneck180]

I know of several natives who take a doe mulie late in the season for meat and participate in draws for "trophy animals" just like the rest of us which I believe is the way it should be. As in all societies there are people who abuse rights and use "sustenance" to take any and all animals they encounter. the worst situation I have seen is a "status" individual who braggged and had the pictures to prove it that he has harvested many trophy animals over the course of years under his status. I think that is just plain wrong. These individuals give all staus people a bad name which is like the bad hunters making it impossible for all of us. If I was hunting for meat an antelope would probably be one of my last choices to filll the freezer.
Rob

There a lot of "Redneck white guys" that do the same things..don't put all people under the same umbrella...

[S.A.S]

An interesting topic. I personally don't see why anyone is allowed to hunt year round. The charter of rights and freedoms say we are all equal and should be treated as such, Allowing minority groups special privileges goes against said charter. It seems like no one on that side is happy with what they are given, you give an inch and they want a mile. In 2010 very few people in Canada need to sustenance hunt, If you can't afford a pack of ground beef down at the safeway then you have bigger problems to deal with besides where and when you can hunt.

And before anyone goes off calling me a racist and what not, I have no issue with Indians, full blooded or half, that work for their living, are not addicted to drugs or alcohol and do not complain about the government all the time. Hard working clean Indians are alright in my books.

[redranger15]

What is this thread really going to accomplish? Really? Besides everyone getting all cranky? When this tread runs its coarse someone let me know what was accoplished please.

[270WIN]

There are 27 other threads on AO on this topic you should read as background, all filled with vitriol and rage, and almost all closed down by the mods in the end because people ended up acting like 2 year olds. Happy reading.

I guess we need to go through this again every few months....

I had to look up "vitriol" to find out what it means. It sounded to me like it might be some kind of medicine but I see now that it's not. So I learned something today, Okie, and I thank you for that.

I had no trouble understanding the meaning of the word "rage'", however. It means "extreme anger". Does it strike you as odd, Okie, that there would be a large number of members on a forum such as this one who would be extremely angry at the possibility of a significant portion of the population of this province being given rights which have the potential to end sport hunting as we know it for the rest of us simply in the name of political correctness?

[Thickhorn]

Are there any metis AO members reading this thread that go out each year and buy a hunting license, tags & draws and hunt in legal areas during legal times (as defined in the Regulations, not in a treaty) just like the rest of the hunters? If so, you should be proud of yourself. You have clearly made a choice that will help sustain our resources. This is step number one.

So if there are any reading this, I encourage you to speak (or type) up. I honestly don't know how many (if any) fall into this group, but if we can get this group talking and cooperating with each other, well, that's would be the best start conservationists could ask for. I know for a fact you'll get nothing but overwhelming support from the vast majority of hunters and outdoor enthusiasts.

Anyone?

[outlaw'd]

It's not so much that they can hunt year round, that is given. It is WHERE they can hunt year round that is in contest. The article lays it out pretty clear, the Metis themselves know they don't have the right to hunt all of Alberta but they are asking a judge to give them that right.

This is a pretty broad statement to make. The question that pops to mind is where you got your information that "the Metis themselves know they don't have the right to hunt all of Alberta". I know, I should google it and find it myself. Regardless, I think that this was discussed in R. v. Powley. The Alberta government is trying to prove here weren't Metis people throughout the whole province and therefore the gov't can in effect restrict or designate where the Metis can or cannot hunt. As far as " asking a judge to give them that right", I believe that this is also covered in s. 35(1) of the Constitution Act, 1982.

[IR_mike]

Are there any metis AO members reading this thread that go out each year and buy a hunting license, tags & draws and hunt in legal areas during legal times (as defined in the Regulations, not in a treaty) just like the rest of the hunters? If so, you should be proud of yourself. You have clearly made a choice that will help sustain our resources. This is step number one.

So if there are any reading this, I encourage you to speak (or type) up. I honestly don't know how many (if any) fall into this group, but if we can get this group talking and cooperating with each other, well, that's would be the best start conservationists could ask for. I know for a fact you'll get nothing but overwhelming support from the vast majority of hunters and outdoor enthusiasts.

Anyone?

x2

Not metis myself but a great constructive post on a touchy topic.

I think mandatory harvest registration would also help in resource management

[Hoofrot]

It should be the same for hunting as it is for fishing.
Indians do not need an Alberta Sportfishing Licence or WiN card for general sportfishing, however all other sportfishing regulations apply equally to all persons, including Indians. Indians are persons registered as Indians under the Indian Act.

[lannie]

Are there any metis AO members reading this thread that go out each year and buy a hunting license, tags & draws and hunt in legal areas during legal times (as defined in the Regulations, not in a treaty) just like the rest of the hunters? If so, you should be proud of yourself. You have clearly made a choice that will help sustain our resources. This is step number one.

So if there are any reading this, I encourage you to speak (or type) up. I honestly don't know how many (if any) fall into this group, but if we can get this group talking and cooperating with each other, well, that's would be the best start conservationists could ask for. I know for a fact you'll get nothing but overwhelming support from the vast majority of hunters and outdoor enthusiasts.

Anyone?

One of my best friends of 32 years is full status. He has never hunted out of season. Has hunted every season except throughout his university years. 2 degrees. I have watched him pass up animal after animal and has never taken a "trophy." No sheep and lives beside a mountain with them. He likes wild meat and hunts for that only, never has taken more than 1 animal per season. He did get his first antelope last year. Fish & wildlife know him well
as he will call in or go to their office to report what he has harvested. He would be the first guy to call in any illegal activities. He has never used his
status to aide and abett any other hunter including myself. If i killed something illegally or by mistake he would absolutely expect me to be at F&W's offfice to report it, and i would. If i did not it would end our frienship. I believe this subject is a very sensitive issue to all sportsman and i am posting this in the hopes that we all keep in mind not every metis or status guy is bad. We all notice the bad drivers, not the good ones. He himself believes that his "people" are very often their own worst enemy. We have many discussions about this and like most of the people on this forum, would like things to be equal across the board. He believes what is fair is not having to buy tags etc. We both agree
that the biggest problem with the native and metis hunting is the lack
of stats for harvest #'s making things so difficult for the game management
people. I do have cree in my own veins and i hope and pray that metis hunting is abolished completely. I am very proud of my high income tax paying
friend.

[lannie]

Chief Clarence Louie Osoyoos BC speaking in Northern Alberta :



Speaking to a large aboriginal conference and some of the attendees, including a few who hold high office, have straggled in.

'I can't stand people who are late, he says into the microphone. Indian Time doesn't cut it. '
Some giggle, but no one is quite sure how far he is going to go. Just sit back and listen:

'My first rule for success is Show up on time.'
'My No. 2 rule for success is follow Rule No. 1.'
'If your life sucks, it's because you suck.'
'Quit your sniffling.'
'Join the real world. Go to school, or get a job.'
'Get off of welfare. Get off your butt.'

He pauses, seeming to gauge whether he dare, then does.
'People often say to me, How you doin'? Geez I'm working with Indians what do you think?'
Now they are openly laughing ... applauding. Clarence Louie is everything that was advertised and more.

'Our ancestors worked for a living, he says. So should you.'

He is, fortunately, aboriginal himself. If someone else stood up and said these things - the white columnist standing there with his mouth open, for example - you'd be seen as a racist. Instead, Chief Clarence Louie is seen, increasingly, as one of the most interesting and innovative native leaders in the country even though he avoids national politics.

He has come here to Fort McMurray because the aboriginal community needs, desperately, to start talking about economic development and what all this multibillion-dollar oil madness might mean,for good and for bad.

Clarence Louie is chief and CEO of the Osoyoos Band in British Columbia's South Okanagan. He is 44 years old, though he looks like he would have been an infant when he began his remarkable 20-year-run as chief. He took a band that had been declared bankrupt and taken over by Indian Affairs and he has turned in into an inspiration.

In 2000, the band set a goal of becoming self-sufficient in five years. They're there.

The Osoyoos, 432 strong, own, among other things, a vineyard, a winery, a golf course and a tourist resort, and they are partners in the Baldy Mountain ski development. They have more businesses per capita than any other first nation in Canada.

There are not only enough jobs for everyone, there are so many jobs being created that there are now members of 13 other tribal communities working for the Osoyoos. The little band contributes $40-million a year to the area economy.

Chief Louie is tough. He is as proud of the fact that his band fires its own people as well as hires them. He has his mottos posted throughout the Rez. He believes there is no such thing as consensus, that there will always be those who disagree. And, he says, he is milquetoast compared to his own mother when it comes to how today's lazy aboriginal youth, almost exclusively male, should be dealt with.

Rent a plane, she told him, and fly them all to Iraq. Dump'em off and all the ones who make it back are keepers. Right on, Mom.
The message he has brought here to the Chipewyan, Dene and Cree who live around the oil sands is equally direct: 'Get involved, create jobs and meaningful jobs, not just window dressing for the oil companies.'

'The biggest employer,' he says, 'shouldn't be the band office.'

He also says the time has come to get over it. 'No more whining about 100-year-old failed experiments.' 'No foolishly looking to the Queen to protect rights.'

Louie says aboriginals here and along the Mackenzie Valley should not look at any sharing in development as rocking-chair money but as investment opportunity to create sustainable businesses. He wants them to move beyond entry-level jobs to real jobs they earn all the way to the boardrooms. He wants to see business manners develop: showing up on time, working extra hours. The business lunch, he says, should be drive through, and then right back at it.

'You're going to lose your language and culture faster in poverty than you will in economic development', he says to those who say he is ignoring tradition.

Tough talk, at times shocking talk given the audience, but on this day in this community, they took it and, judging by the response, they loved it.

Eighty per cent like what I have to say, Louie says, twenty per cent don't. I always say to the 20 per cent, 'Get over it.' 'Chances are you're never going to see me again and I'm never going to see you again.' 'Get some counselling.'

The first step, he says, is all about leadership. He prides himself on being a stay-home chief who looks after the potholes in his own backyard and wastes no time running around fighting 100-year-old battles.

'The biggest challenge will be how you treat your own people.'

'Blaming government? That time is over.'

[James M]

Is everyone so pessimistic? Can we not have a civil intelligent adult conversation without all the borderline racist comments, accusations of racism etc? :argue2:




I woudl like to know something. WHERE....when you put that comment up, were the "borderline racist comments"? I read every post before yours and there was nothing racist or even borderline. That's what always happens...someone mentions native/Metis hunting and boom, uh oh, we're all being racist.

[209x50]

When I see self proclaimed comments like this from the pruported higher intelect on this form that is when I realize you have your thoughts and I have mine and no amount of dialogue will change thought patterns. Yours or mine. I would how ever like to see some validaty put to your statement with some factual back up on exactly which Metis your talking about.
The ones in the article? The ones who's lawyer asked the judge
Lawyers for Alberta Metis are urging a provincial court judge to "go outside the box" with a decision that goes beyond what the Supreme Court of Canada has ruled in previous Metis hunting cases.
Hey I'm noy trying to be rude here and if I missed something please tell me.

[stand junkie]

i sure do love it when this topic is brought up you can see peoples real colours. I have friend that is native he buys his tags and fishing lic every year we go fishing he dosent even keep fish just likes the sport in it and only shoots what he has tags for in season but with that said i also know of a meti that hunts year round will shoot 3 or 4 mule bucks till he gets the one he wants and has been known to trade moose for beef (hes also a farmer). I know for a fact the that the fish cops have talked with him and its been denide and left at that. so we cant put all of them in the same group as them beeing poachers but i agree that these rights need to be taken away so that are young ones have the same chance to hunt the way we do now

[duffy4]

This thread should be a fair bit different from the previous threads on this subject.

As 209X50 pointed out with the article on the court proceedings Alberta Metis DO NOT presently have the Alberta gov'ts. blessing on "hunt anywhere any time".

The court decision may change things but the position of the Alberta Gov't right now (If I have this right) is that anyone, of any ethnic background (besides treaty card Indians) can get a free permit to take a specified animal for subsistence if they can show they really need it.

[ishootbambi]

im tasting blood from biting my lip so hard on this one. ill try to do this as politely as possible, but i make no promises.

i had the misfortune of actually going out bowhunting with one of the 2 guys initiating the court case. i really didnt know him, but he was a neighbour of my uncle. my uncle asked if he could come along for the day, an i agreed. i wish i hadnt. the whole drive out he professed to me to be a great accomplished hunter and a trophy collecting machine. on the drive, he smoked non-stop. did i mention we were going bowhunting? you know....like getting close may matter? anyway. as we approached the pasture we were heading for, there were a couple of nice mule bucks in the ditch along the road. he was screaming to stop the truck as we pulled alongside. when the deer hopped the fence and bounded into the field, he drew his bow back and was going to shoot at them running at 50 yards. i was yelling form the back seat "dont be a "*&*&% idiot". he didnt shoot, but blamed me for scaring them away. i was giving ol unc the hairy eyeball and it wasnt even legal light yet. without too many long details, i didnt see an infraction that day, but a few were attempted until i reminded him of the rules. needless to say, i did not go out with the guy again. when my uncle asked if he could come with to the mighty whitetail land up north i told him ABSOLUTELY NO WAY! and if i ever found out he took him there behind my back id boot him in the nuts so hard my cousins would be sterile.
so anyway, when the metis hunting thing took effect, he and his kid immediatley went on a SUBSISTENCE killing spree that resulted in a couple of 400 class bull elk from suffield and a few big mule bucks in the 190 range. funny how the self proclaimed trophy hunter who had never taken a legit trophy size animal (yes i agree....eye of the beholder) is all of a sudden a meat hunter like his anscestors but happens to like his meat with giant antlers.
i usually try hard not to make personal statements about others when i post here, but this guy is a sloth in every way. he doesnt give a crap about way of life or subsistence tradition....he is just looking for a way to kill trophy animals. thats it! 209 is absolutely right in what he said. these two know exactly what they are entitled to and are looking to get themselves an advantage.
mods, if this post is too offensive and gets removed, i apologize and understand. the thread on herdbull/whitetailer/chris was way more extensive than this, and in my opinion, this guy is at least as offensive as what he did.

and before anyone asks why i didnt report the activities i saw that day, its because i stopped him from doing something illegal before he did it. believe me, had i known, i may have been temtped to let him follow through just so i could report him.

[huntinstuff]

I'm proud to be white.

I am able to afford my hunting tags.

I am glad I don't have to hunt for my food. I choose to.

I work, make money and spend it as I feel I should.

I don't ask anyone for special treatment, just fair treatment.

And I'm happy.

[leo]

I'm proud to be white.

I am able to afford my hunting tags.

I am glad I don't have to hunt for my food. I choose to.

I work, make money and spend it as I feel I should.

I don't ask anyone for special treatment, just fair treatment.

And I'm happy.

Well said!:)

[bushnell]

Huntinstuff I agree totally with your statement.I also want nothing more or less than to be treated equally to everyone else.

[Walleyes]

This one will get shut down like all the rest.. Just when we get into what really has to be said it will fall into the a bullsh!t race thread and be put on ice..

But before it does I have one thing to say,,,


I am a man I deserve the right to kill my food at my choice of time or place what the ?? does my origin have to do with my right to eat ????

[switchsl]

My father has status, I guess that makes me an indian, or metis, or whatever you want to call me. Both of us pay our taxes, work for a living and hunt with apropriate tags in the designated season. I guess I was the first to say that in this particular thread. Before anybody gets their hate on, remember there are hard working and lay people of all colors.
Now, to vent. The handouts, yes... I said it, handouts that status indians and metis have and seek are absurd. So what if your ancestors were traeted poorly, its time to get over it instead of feeling sorry and blaming your troubles on 100 year old treaty failures. All persons of all origins had the right to hunt and fish freely at one time. You think millions of people around the world are not being treated poorly as you read this, who have no opportunity to go to school or even work beyond tending their sparse crops. I hate to stereo type, but as Chief Louie said... you are a bunch of sniffling lazy people (people being the persons who dont seem to want to work to better their situation and fellow man). Before you put a racist stake in my heart, this is coming from one of those supposed snifflers. The elders I used to know, and respect, have little to nothing good to say about todays aboriginal youth. Its to bad the people who choose to gain an education, like so many in all walks of life, are now using it to exploit freebies and manipulate the laws instead of educate their people and give a hand to those who cant help themselves. Its cheaper now and better PR for the gov't to pay them off instead of saying no, so thats what they do.
The world is not as it was 100 years ago, stop trying to gain rights as if it was. Did you know there is still a law that you will get a horse and a gun when you are let out of jail in Alberta. If we pay all our criminals thousands of dollars for an outdated rule some leech dug out of some ancient legal document, it would be a public outrage. I dont have the copy of the above mentioned agreement of a horse and wagon, but that should be an outrage also . I am not racist, or prejiduce, only biased favoring those who choose to help themselves by working for what they want, I could care less what colour or religion you are. If anybody is wondering, I am Mi`kmaq from the gaspe, French, Scottish and Ukranian, and it shouldnt matter. I am proud of who I am, and where I live, and I know I have it good. Pull your heads out of your arses and have a look at how great our country is, not how to exploit it. If you dont like my opinion, well, I am entitled to my freedom of speech just as you are.

[elkhunter11]

It's a sad situation when wanting every Canadian to be equal under the law is considered racist.Unfortunately that is the situation that exists in Canada today.

[huntinstuff]

It's a sad situation when wanting every Canadian to be equal under the law is considered racist.Unfortunately that is the situation that exists in Canada today.

Perfectly said.....

[AxeMan]

:thinking-006:Exactly, pulling that racism card is getting real old fast.

[Huntsman]

A friend of mine knows a guy who hunts for sustinence. But really he hunts with the season, he takes non-trophy animals, simply put he hunts for meat in the freezer. He's a 1/2 blooded Cree, holds a Gov't job protecting our Rights & Freedoms so we can enjoy hunting year after year. He never hunts out of season, never shoots more than he needs and never wastes what he shoots. The only thing he honestly does'nt do that the white man has to is buy tags/licences. He does'nt drink or do drugs, he has a family and a nice house and with his hard earned money buys the toys that he wants so he and his family can enjoy the outdoors with him.
I have personally met a few non-aboriginal hunters that to me fit the poacher type category, so who's worse here?

[elkhunter11]

I have personally met a few non-aboriginal hunters that to me fit the poacher type category, so who's worse here?

It's not a case of "whose worse",it's a case of our laws allowing some people to be exempt from the regulations,simply because of their race.It's a case of legislated racism.

[Huntsman]

It's not a case of "whose worse",it's a case of our laws allowing some people to be exempt from the regulations,simply because of their race.It's a case of legislated racism.

Either way I'm done with this thread, I read the same ***** on Canadian Gunnutz and this topic comes up way too often to make any difference to anyone other than stir up anger & resentment.
I'm all for the aboriginals who choose to express thier rights.
I am not for those aboriginals who choose to take advantage of ther given right and exploit it.

[mulecrazy]

Either way I'm done with this thread, I read the same ***** on Canadian Gunnutz and this topic comes up way too often to make any difference to anyone other than stir up anger & resentment.
I'm all for the aboriginals who choose to express thier rights.
I am not for those aboriginals who choose to take advantage of ther given right and exploit it.

you finished your comment off with exactly the point of the thread. Abuse of the system steals from all of us. Whether legal or not, Abuse is abuse.

[maxpower2506]

Just one more thing whitey did wrong, if it wasn't for "whitey" their would be no "metis"!!!!!! :thinking-006:

[ishootbambi]

Just one more thing whitey did wrong, if it wasn't for "whitey" their would be no "metis"!!!!!! :thinking-006:

yup....thats my biggest issue with metis claiming heritage and rights. metis did not exist until AFTER white people came to north america. in reality if native indians are first nations, then whites would be second, and metis third nations. gimme a break! why cant everyone be treated equal???

[Jimboy]

lf its not to much trouble the mods should print out this thread in its entirety and ship it off to Harper/ Stelmac and their teams.

[Caper28]

why cant everyone be treated equal???

Exactly, no matter where I see these threads they always end up with someone claiming racism or that non natives are jealous. All most of us want is for the fish and game be managed for future generations. You don't realize how fast it can be gone, I've seen populations of Atlantic salmon disappear from poaching and from natives. The poachers we can report and cut nets, there's nothing we can do about the natives in the fish ladders with pitch forks.

Back in Nova Scotia this year we had most of our salmon rivers closed because there's not enough salmon returning to support a native fishery, so the only way the natives would give up rights to fish on those rivers is if DFO would close the catch and release fisheries. Most of my favorite rivers are closed and probably will never open again as long as there are native treaty rights and now there are less people on the rivers to monitor them which means increase in poaching. It all started a few years ago when a CO tried to lay charges on an Indian for jigging salmon from a bridge.

[trophyboy]

NO ONE should be given special hunting rights, simply because our fish and wildlife resources can not sustain the continuous onslaught of inconsiderate, self centered idiots that think the world owes them everything. This is not rocket science people. Everyone, indians included should have to use the draw and licensing sytem. Why are indians an metis more equal than everyone else? This crap has created nothing but problems.:fighting0074:

[MountainTi]

A friend of mine knows a guy who hunts for sustinence. But really he hunts with the season, he takes non-trophy animals, simply put he hunts for meat in the freezer. He's a 1/2 blooded Cree, holds a Gov't job protecting our Rights & Freedoms so we can enjoy hunting year after year. He never hunts out of season, never shoots more than he needs and never wastes what he shoots. The only thing he honestly does'nt do that the white man has to is buy tags/licences. He does'nt drink or do drugs, he has a family and a nice house and with his hard earned money buys the toys that he wants so he and his family can enjoy the outdoors with him.
I have personally met a few non-aboriginal hunters that to me fit the poacher type category, so who's worse here?
While I do applaud your buddies buddy for his efforts at conservation when he has the card giving him all the power to work against wildlife sustainability, I don't think what he is doing can be called sustinence hunting. To me it sounds like with all the toys he manages to buy, the nice home he has purchased and lives in, he can probably afford to buy meat at the store. I don't think this can be called for sustinence, I expect he is doing it because he enjoys the meat, and perhaps the rewards that come with doing your own processing. If this is the case, should he not be purchasing tags like most of us are required to do, and while doing so supporting wildlife conservation with his tag purchases?

[flint]

Exactly, no matter where I see these threads they always end up with someone claiming racism or that non natives are jealous. All most of us want is for the fish and game be managed for future generations. You don't realize how fast it can be gone, I've seen populations of Atlantic salmon disappear from poaching and from natives. The poachers we can report and cut nets, there's nothing we can do about the natives in the fish ladders with pitch forks.

Back in Nova Scotia this year we had most of our salmon rivers closed because there's not enough salmon returning to support a native fishery, so the only way the natives would give up rights to fish on those rivers is if DFO would close the catch and release fisheries. Most of my favorite rivers are closed and probably will never open again as long as there are native treaty rights and now there are less people on the rivers to monitor them which means increase in poaching. It all started a few years ago when a CO tried to lay charges on an Indian for jigging salmon from a bridge.

Has anyone on this thread studied pre-confederation history? Does anyone know what the English (our ancestors) did to the natives of their own country? Well it was our ancestors and ourselves to blame for the social and finanicial problems that the aboriginals had, and have. I'm not going to give a history lessen here but let me say the aboriginals deserve everything that was given to them, and I hope the hell it last's another 500 years. Women, men and children were raped, murdered and their houses burned down. Disease like influeneza, small pocks and such were brought over from the Atlantic where thousands of natives died. This whet on for hundreds of years and recently court cases were settled because of sexual abuse in Catholic schools that were operated by the church and government. What I just mentioned is only the tip of the iceberg. Today we live in a overpopulated country, polluted and half destroyed by us, the "White Man". While the Aboriginals are scattered all over this country on reservations some can sit back and say like this "bone head" (caper 28) that the natives are taking all of our salmon. The natives lived in harmony with nature, with other aboriginal nations, and when the French arrived, in harmony with them, hence the conception of the Metis. Yes Caper 28 you are a bigot and some others on this thread!

[ishootbambi]

the strongest statement in there flint is overpopulation. before europeans came here there was maybe a few hundred thousand natives? i dunno, i couldnt find the census report. today with a population well over 30 million, that is the biggest reason for changes to the environment..... farming, forestry yada yada to satisfy demands of an ever growing human population. canada has nowhere near the population density of other places in the world, and i for one appreciate that fact very much.

i think it was the movie "the matrix" that pointed out how a virus depletes and destroys everything in its environment in its quest to reproduce and then when there is nothing left moves on to a new environment. the other organism that does this is humans. sadly thats kinda true.

[redranger15]

Has anyone on this thread studied pre-confederation history? Does anyone know what the English (our ancestors) did to the natives of their own country? Well it was our ancestors and ourselves to blame for the social and finanicial problems that the aboriginals had, and have. I'm not going to give a history lessen here but let me say the aboriginals deserve everything that was given to them, and I hope the hell it last's another 500 years. Women, men and children were raped, murdered and their houses burned down. Disease like influeneza, small pocks and such were brought over from the Atlantic where thousands of natives died. This whet on for hundreds of years and recently court cases were settled because of sexual abuse in Catholic schools that were operated by the church and government. What I just mentioned is only the tip of the iceberg. Today we live in a overpopulated country, polluted and half destroyed by us, the "White Man". While the Aboriginals are scattered all over this country on reservations some can sit back and say like this "bone head" (caper 28) that the natives are taking all of our salmon. The natives lived in harmony with nature, with other aboriginal nations, and when the French arrived, in harmony with them, hence the conception of the Metis. Yes Caper 28 you are a bigot and some others on this thread!


3/4 of the people that post in this thread have no clue about native history and how the treaties came about , they only see the present situation ,but really don't have a clue.

[lannie]

I think the thread had been going well and a lot of good information is being posted where we can see other's point of view etc. Learn a little, try to be open minded and maybe even come up with some viable solutions to problems that keep surfacing. I do not want to see the thread closed or anybody else to be banned.
Flint you have some great input in many areas with a lot of expierience in many facets of outdoor pursuit. I am not saying anything to personally offend you but..... calling others on here bigots or any other names is totally un called for and does nothing constructive for the rest of us. The history of the treaties is important as we need to understand the past to protect the future. Everybody's expierience with the past is part of the problem/solution for the future.
Play nice.

[Elkaholic6]

Has anyone on this thread studied pre-confederation history? Does anyone know what the English (our ancestors) did to the natives of their own country? Well it was our ancestors and ourselves to blame for the social and finanicial problems that the aboriginals had, and have. I'm not going to give a history lessen here but let me say the aboriginals deserve everything that was given to them, and I hope the hell it last's another 500 years. Women, men and children were raped, murdered and their houses burned down. Disease like influeneza, small pocks and such were brought over from the Atlantic where thousands of natives died. This whet on for hundreds of years and recently court cases were settled because of sexual abuse in Catholic schools that were operated by the church and government. What I just mentioned is only the tip of the iceberg. Today we live in a overpopulated country, polluted and half destroyed by us, the "White Man". While the Aboriginals are scattered all over this country on reservations some can sit back and say like this "bone head" (caper 28) that the natives are taking all of our salmon. The natives lived in harmony with nature, with other aboriginal nations, and when the French arrived, in harmony with them, hence the conception of the Metis. Yes Caper 28 you are a bigot and some others on this thread!

That was 200 years ago. How does it affect them to date? They didn't even know their ancestors.

[mulecrazy]

I think the thread had been going well and a lot of good information is being posted where we can see other's point of view etc. Learn a little, try to be open minded and maybe even come up with some viable solutions to problems that keep surfacing. I do not want to see the thread closed or anybody else to be banned.
Flint you have some great input in many areas with a lot of expierience in many facets of outdoor pursuit. I am not saying anything to personally offend you but..... calling others on here bigots or any other names is totally un called for and does nothing constructive for the rest of us. The history of the treaties is important as we need to understand the past to protect the future. Everybody's expierience with the past is part of the problem/solution for the future.
Play nice.

I totally agree. this thread has been going pretty good. But when people like Flint start falsely accusing people the thread de-rails in a hurry. No one is being racist just throwing out ideas. IMO the treatys have their purpose to an extent. But like all things change so should the treaty's. A lot has changed since they were signed and should be reviewed. I agree with their ability to hunt for their own sustinence but there should be limitations. Back when there were not any laws around hunting the white man just about whiped out most of the wild game. Thus, conservation groups were born. As things have changed so has our laws. We are continually evolving which is the human way. It is the selfish actions of a few (poachers) that give us a bad name. Same as with the natives. A vast majority will respect the land but the ones who abuse the system give the rest a bad name. I think that with the political correctness of todays society there is not a politician that will stick his/her neck out to solve the problem. IMHO the change must come from within the reserves. Those that respect nature must step up and reckognize the need to evolve their practices. until that happens, it will be a mud slinging fest between both sides.

[elkhunter11]

Not only the white man killed,raped and burned,the natives committed the same atrocities.Regardless of how the natives were treated in the past,it does not change the fact that legislated racism is wrong in today's society.I wish that I could truthfully say that I lived in a country where every man,woman and child was equal under the law,but in Canada,that simply isn't the case.As great as Canada is,we still have backwards racist laws,that prevent us from being an even greater country.

[Caper28]

I guess I'm a bigot, I've been called a lot worse on the interweb. Don't really care to tell you the truth. History is just that, history, and we need to work towards tomorrow to save out fish and wild life.

[wwbirds]

Flint only touched on a few points on how the natives were treated. They were the keepers of the land for perhaps thousands of years and lived in harmony with nature only taking what they needed as nature provided.
The treaty rights for hunting and fishing were granted by representatives of the "whites" and for the most part they were promised "the sky" for the people making the promises were certain they would never have to live up to the letter of the law as "assimilation" and even "genocide" would by and large eliiminate the need to fulfill the promises. You could lose status and thus not qualify for treaty rights by converting to Christianity (the Jesuits looked afte that one as well as marryiing "white". Many lost status serving in the world Wars for you could not enlist and keep status. It is largely incorrect to state that natives also raped, burned and killed for they for the most part learned this from the original settlers of the land who the natives offered to share with (not be enslaved). whites invented scalping, and thought it was such a joke for native women to complain about rape (nes squaw = no sex) that they named native women "squaws". (sex)

then look at the early settlersdistributing chicken pox infected blankets to the newly established "reservations" and you have a very small idea of how this "genocide" was planned so promised rights from the Great Father (King) would never be claimed. thousands of years living on and from the land compared to a few hundred years of destroying it with ever expanding range requirements? Whose rights need reining in?????

[elkhunter11]

It is not legislated racism

You had best look up the definition of racism.Any law which gives more rights to one race,is by definition,"legislated racism".

It is largely incorrect to state that natives also raped, burned and killed for they for the most part learned this from the original settlers

Who they learned it from,doesn't change the fact that they raped,burned and killed other races.And the tribes did engage in war with other tribes,killing each others member,before the white man even arrived on this continent.

Have you ever read the terms of some of the treaties?I have read several,including treaties three,five and eight.I for one would like to see Canada follow the terms of those treaties to the letter.By the way,there was a clause in several of those treaties that allowed for Canada to regulate hunting and fishing by aboriginals,so the government could regulate their hunting without violating the terms of most of the treaties.

[flint]

Not only the white man killed,raped and burned,the natives committed the same atrocities.Regardless of how the natives were treated in the past,it does not change the fact that legislated racism is wrong in today's society.I wish that I could truthfully say that I lived in a country where every man,woman and child was equal under the law,but in Canada,that simply isn't the case.As great as Canada is,we still have backwards racist laws,that prevent us from being an even greater country.

There are hundreds of laws enacted in Canada where it favours one and not others. Let's start with Martin's Annual Criminal Code of Canada. Why is there a more severe punishment to murdering a Peace Officer then it is to murder a commoner? Is a Peace Officer's life more valuable than your's or mine? Why can't I use a crossbow for hunting during the archery season, but the other guy can because of an injury. He can shoot from his vehicle because he can't walk. I don't have to wear a seat belt because I'm pregnant. The list go's on and on. I know that these are exceptions, but are they equal to others? There are no laws in any country that treats every person equally. None! Furthermore, if every person was treated equally by law it dosen't necessary mean that it will be practiced. In otherwords, laws are broken. Laws are not racist, only some favor special groups or minorities. Regardless, at the end of the day the Aboriginals will receive the shorter end of the stick because some great white hunter thinks that hunting is his right and not our natives.

[mulecrazy]

There are hundreds of laws enacted in Canada where it favours one and not others. Let's start with Martin's Annual Criminal Code of Canada. Why is there a more severe punishment to murdering a Peace Officer then it is to murder a commoner? Is a Peace Officer's life more valuable than your's or mine? Why can't I use a crossbow for hunting during the archery season, but the other guy can because of an injury. He can shoot from his vehicle because he can't walk. I don't have to wear a seat belt because I'm pregnant. The list go's on and on. I know that these are exceptions, but are they equal to others? There are no laws in any country that treats every person equally. None! Furthermore, if every person was treated equally by law it dosen't necessary mean that it will be practiced. In otherwords, laws are broken. Laws are not racist, only some favor special groups or minorities. Regardless, at the end of the day the Aboriginals will receive the shorter end of the stick because some great white hunter thinks that hunting is his right and not our natives.

To be honest, I have not heard of any of these laws except the crossbow one. even then it is tough to get the proper permit. The MAJOR difference is these laws are there for a damn good reason. They are based on a case by case basis and not a general law due to nothing other than race. And a pregnant lady not wearing her seatbelt effects everyone else how?????? Does seeing that make you crash?? whats your point???

[wwbirds]

Not all but many battles were determined by gaining an advantage over an adversary and it was not necessary to kill to win. Counting coup is based on pride of winning the battle without killing the opponent. Like many creatures in the animal world natives recognized survival of the species necessitated non lethal battles much the same as the rest of the animals kingdom where holding an advantage the dominant animal gives way when the opponent goes to submissive posture.
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree for I do not feel legislation that corrects past injustices is racism for it was racism that caused the legislation to be passed to correct the white is right attitude prevalent for many years.
Treaties that contain provisions to restrict hunting and fishing rights have not been acted upon because for the most part populations can sustain a harvest.
Wonder how much the east coast fishery was affected by the animal rights groups boycotting seal products and killing the seal harvest or Japanese factory fishing ships but a native substenance fishing with a pitch fork will get the blame.

[elkhunter11]

There are hundreds of laws enacted in Canada where it favours one and not others. Let's start with Martin's Annual Criminal Code of Canada. Why is there a more severe punishment to murdering a Peace Officer then it is to murder a commoner? Is a Peace Officer's life more valuable than your's or mine? Why can't I use a crossbow for hunting during the archery season, but the other guy can because of an injury. He can shoot from his vehicle because he can't walk. I don't have to wear a seat belt because I'm pregnant.

Not one of those examples shows a law that favors one race over another.

Laws are not racist, only some favor special groups or minorities.

Laws are racist if they favor one race over another,based specifically on race,as do several Canadian laws.

Not all but many battles were determined by gaining an advantage over an adversary and it was not necessary to kill to win. Counting coup is based on pride of winning the battle without killing the opponent.

Are you expecting us to believe that natives never killed their enemies before the white man arrived?Do you really think that we are that naive?Try posting something a little bit more believable next time.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree for I do not feel legislation that corrects past injustices is racism for it was racism that caused the legislation to be passed to correct the white is right attitude prevalent for many years.

It doesn't matter how you try to justify our racist laws,by definition,they are still racist,as long as they give one race more rights than another race.

[pottymouth]

This is just my opinion, but I think the Natives are very fortunate to have what they have. I haven't done extensive research, but i don't know of another country other than Canada, and the U.S where this is going on. If you were taken over , sort of speaking by another race, you didn't have exceptions, you counted your lucky stars you weren't wiped out, thus you began living like the conqueror.

I think that if some Groups are going to abuse the systems our goverment has created for them, OR any other special interest group in Canada, their privilages should be revoked.No different than any other profession that doesn't keep current on schooling, training or hours.Let the ones using their special exceptions continue too , only if it's for the better of Canada and society, there are grateful people out there too!.

[whitetail Junkie]

Non-Natives, are just Jelous that they dont have the hunting& Fishing, privlages that our aboriginal people do.

I know that if I was Native i'd hunt 8 months of the year for Trophy animals,and I'd Eat the Meat aswell!!!

I know some Natives from Saskatchewan that live in a reserve that border's our hunting area,and these two brothers have shot 7 whitetail bucks over 190".and 5 out of the seven where shot in the hunting season.but even if they were'nt it does'nt matter because it's there RIGHT to hunt year round!!!

[BrownBear416]

Non-Natives, are just Jelous that they dont have the hunting& Fishing, privlages that our aboriginal people do.

I know that if I was Native i'd hunt 8 months of the year for Trophy animals,and I'd Eat the Meat aswell!!!

I know some Natives from Saskatchewan that live in a reserve that border's our hunting area,and these two brothers have shot 7 whitetail bucks over 190".and 5 out of the seven where shot in the hunting season.but even if they were'nt it does'nt matter because it's there RIGHT to hunt year round!!!

Who decided this????

I dont care if Natives dont have to pay for there tags but in order to properly manage are Wildlife populations they should have to follow the same seasons as non native people do and have the same bag limits.


Sustenance hunting is a crock of S**T because from what I can see the Bands have more money then most people I know.

[unclebuck]

When I see Metis subsistence fishermen climb into their 185 with floats and head out to their favorite lake(walleyes knows who I mean), and see other subsistence fishermen who own a trucking company situated in more than one place, that is worth in excess of $60 million, and subsistence fishing at Touchwood, I have a huge problem(walleyes knows him as well). Was there a fish fry at the Ponoka Stampede?

[James M]

Who decided this????

I dont care if Natives dont have to pay for there tags but in order to properly manage are Wildlife populations they should have to follow the same seasons as non native people do and have the same bag limits.


Sustenance hunting is a crock of S**T because from what I can see the Bands have more money then most people I know.

I would also like to know who decided that...???

I don't mind paying for tags, I have something called a job. I don't want to hunt for free, I want everyone to pay so it's equal. Guess that makes me racist.

[pottymouth]

Non-Natives, are just Jelous that they dont have the hunting& Fishing, privlages that our aboriginal people do.

I know that if I was Native i'd hunt 8 months of the year for Trophy animals,and I'd Eat the Meat aswell!!!

I know some Natives from Saskatchewan that live in a reserve that border's our hunting area,and these two brothers have shot 7 whitetail bucks over 190".and 5 out of the seven where shot in the hunting season.but even if they were'nt it does'nt matter because it's there RIGHT to hunt year round!!!

And that's the problem right there,that's what some are doing. If they continue to do things like that, how long before, draws times double, certain species are threatened and trophy mature bucks are non existant in zones. I think you would be the first to throw a fit if they all came down there and wiped out all the trophy whitetails, year round. Would you still be pumped for 110 class buck!!

What's the point to have rules to preserve our wildlife, when there are groups who are exempt and can effect the outcome for the rest of Alberta.

[IR_mike]

Has anyone on this thread studied pre-confederation history? Does anyone know what the English (our ancestors) did to the natives of their own country? Well it was our ancestors and ourselves to blame for the social and finanicial problems that the aboriginals had, and have. I'm not going to give a history lessen here but let me say the aboriginals deserve everything that was given to them, and I hope the hell it last's another 500 years. Women, men and children were raped, murdered and their houses burned down. Disease like influeneza, small pocks and such were brought over from the Atlantic where thousands of natives died. This whet on for hundreds of years and recently court cases were settled because of sexual abuse in Catholic schools that were operated by the church and government. What I just mentioned is only the tip of the iceberg. Today we live in a overpopulated country, polluted and half destroyed by us, the "White Man". While the Aboriginals are scattered all over this country on reservations some can sit back and say like this "bone head" (caper 28) that the natives are taking all of our salmon. The natives lived in harmony with nature, with other aboriginal nations, and when the French arrived, in harmony with them, hence the conception of the Metis. Yes Caper 28 you are a bigot and some others on this thread!

Wow some real historical innacuracies there.

Lot of those "History on Film" movies that you have been watching are just that movies not historical fact.

Just to show where your reasoning is flawed would be for me to counterpoint your argument by saying natives were allied with the english in the film "Last of the Mohicans"

Gotta go me and Shwanky have to go worship satan:rolleye2::rolleye2:

Great way to wreck a thread.

[mulecrazy]

One interesting thing I found this winter was in Mexico. The wife and I did a tour of a mayan village. Mayans in mexico are the equivalent to our natives. These mayans for the most part still live totally off the land and recieve absolutely nothing as far as tax breaks and money from the government. These people were poor but very happy. The tour guide who was also a Mayan was very insistant in none of the tourists giving the people any money. They know what it will lead too. The children make little trinkits you can buy but that is about it. I found it quite interesting how they live versus our reserves. I asked the tour guide about any issues with drug and alcohol abuse in the villages. He looked at me kind of weird and said absolutely not. As far as I could tell the only differences between them and our natives was government exemptions and handouts.

[pottymouth]

One interesting thing I found this winter was in Mexico. The wife and I did a tour of a mayan village. Mayans in mexico are the equivalent to our natives. These mayans for the most part still live totally off the land and recieve absolutely nothing as far as tax breaks and money from the government. These people were poor but very happy. The tour guide who was also a Mayan was very insistant in none of the tourists giving the people any money. They know what it will lead too. The children make little trinkits you can buy but that is about it. I found it quite interesting how they live versus our reserves. I asked the tour guide about any issues with drug and alcohol abuse in the villages. He looked at me kind of weird and said absolutely not. As far as I could tell the only differences between them and our natives was government exemptions and handouts.

Hmmm kinda reminds me of giving handouts to park bears!

[mac_xi@hotmail.com]

I think I am out, they pull me back in.

First off I am sick and tired of all the non-native people on this board playing the victim. Our hunting rights are pretty much the only advantage we have over non-natives.

Bill Maher said it best that racism is still alive and well. But most white people only recognize reverse racisim. They don't lynch people any more but those feelings are still there brewing deeply. Trying to strip our hunting rights are just another more relevent tactic. Sure in a perfect world everyone would be equal. But this isn't Eutopia.

The feeling you get when you see a native person deep in your gut is hate. As long as it's there we can never be equal. Alberta is to Canada as the "deep south" is to the united states. There are far deeper issues masking themselves in the posts that so frequently occur. Just because you say you are not racist
does not make it so. It's not all the non-native's fault. Hate flows both ways. Hate breeds ignorance and pettyness. That's why these threads tend to follow the same patterns.

I am aboriginal. I practice subsistance hunting. I feed my family. I will not apologize for it. And I will do whatever it takes to keep this right.

[elkhunter11]

First off I am sick and tired of all the non-native people on this board playing the victim. Our hunting rights are pretty much the only advantage we have over non-natives.

You left out tax breaks,special grants,preferential treatment when applying for jobs with the government or with large corporations,preferred treatment given to native owned companies applying for contracts,and special treatment under the firearms act.:)

Now for the list of the breaks given to non-natives-it's so short,that it doesn't even exist.

[mulecrazy]

I think I am out, they pull me back in.

First off I am sick and tired of all the non-native people on this board playing the victim. Our hunting rights are pretty much the only advantage we have over non-natives.

Bill Maher said it best that racism is still alive and well. But most white people only recognize reverse racisim. They don't lynch people any more but those feelings are still there brewing deeply. Trying to strip our hunting rights are just another more relevent tactic. Sure in a perfect world everyone would be equal. But this isn't Eutopia.

The feeling you get when you see a native person deep in your gut is hate. As long as it's there we can never be equal. Alberta is to Canada as the "deep south" is to the united states. There are far deeper issues masking themselves in the posts that so frequently occur. Just because you say you are not racist
does not make it so. It's not all the non-native's fault. Hate flows both ways. Hate breeds ignorance and pettyness. That's why these threads tend to follow the same patterns.

I am aboriginal. I practice subsistance hunting. I feed my family. I will not apologize for it. And I will do whatever it takes to keep this right.

thats the only advantage hey... how about subsidized housing, health care, education, prefferential treatment in job hiring, major tax breaks. There are a heck of lot of HUGE advantages there. One huge pet peeve I have is excuses. I grew up in a family that did not have much money. I did not use that as an excuse and went out and made myself what I am today. I could have taken the easy route but in the long run my hard work is paying off with a great career and family in the making. Don't tell me that I have a hate on for natives. That is simply not the case. The native culture is really quite awesome. There traditions are something we can all learn from and I really hope they continue. That is no reason to abuse the system though. The fact is, the majority of natives are great people. However, some reserves have major problems that they themselves need to fix. It is up to them and not the government to step up, grab the bull by the horns, and make there reserve into what it can become. I have absolutely no problems with someone shooting a few deer or a moose to help feed his family, but there should be monitoring and some control of it. Whether the SRD gives each reserve an allotment of tags to hand out to their band members as they see fit, or we do it ourselves it makes no difference to me. If a member is very poor that band can give him 2 moose tags to help him out, but if the next member is either very well off or very lazy then they should only get one or none at all. Just like a spoiled kid will grow up without any sense of responsibility, a native that has everything handed to him will turn out the same way. Unfortunately it is human nature and will happen to anyone (white, black, asian, or native). Laziness does not discriminate based on skin colour.

[lannie]

I think I am out, they pull me back in.

First off I am sick and tired of all the non-native people on this board playing the victim. Our hunting rights are pretty much the only advantage we have over non-natives.

Bill Maher said it best that racism is still alive and well. But most white people only recognize reverse racisim. They don't lynch people any more but those feelings are still there brewing deeply. Trying to strip our hunting rights are just another more relevent tactic. Sure in a perfect world everyone would be equal. But this isn't Eutopia.

The feeling you get when you see a native person deep in your gut is hate. As long as it's there we can never be equal. Alberta is to Canada as the "deep south" is to the united states. There are far deeper issues masking themselves in the posts that so frequently occur. Just because you say you are not racist
does not make it so. It's not all the non-native's fault. Hate flows both ways. Hate breeds ignorance and pettyness. That's why these threads tend to follow the same patterns.

I am aboriginal. I practice subsistance hunting. I feed my family. I will not apologize for it. And I will do whatever it takes to keep this right.

You say you are aboriginal, do you mean metis or do you full status ?
I commend you for buying tags if you are status ! Do you feel hatred when you see native people ? I won't believe 5 % of the people feel that.
The main issue of contention here is giving more or greater rights to metis.
And remember this fall if you get skunked you still can get an animal to feed your family for "subsistence." You already have that right along with every other person on this forum. Now that is equality it the 1st order.

[mac_xi@hotmail.com]

I am not Metis. Not Indian. I am Inuit. I buy tags for hunting with my non native friends. My wife is full treaty Cree. I don't know about your views but to me "native" and "advantage" are two words that I don't associate with each other. I did not say it was our only advantage so you better reread my post.

What I can tell you is my personal experiecs being native. Living in Alberta you see first hand the interaction between natives and non natives. Although many people are not racist they do perpetuate stereotypes. I constantly feel the need to "prove" myself to my non native counter parts. You have no idea how many times I've heard "You are so well spoken."

I am not saying "whitey is evil". My father is non native. Racism is alive and well on both sides. To say it not is ignorant. If saying "5%" of people feel this way that's still over 20000 people in Edmonton alone. People have just been ridiculed to the point where they no longer express their views outloud.

I have a degree in Native Studies and a minor in Anthropology. Believe me when I tell you how well I know the topic of Native history and the human nature of it especially as it applies to Alberta. I would like some actual cconstructive discussion rather the same old few tired arguments.

[wwbirds]

"some reserves have major problems which they need to fix themselves"

The reserve in itself is a problem for native people. They were convinced to go there and give up huge tracts of traditional land on the premise that their needs would be looked after. How does a tradition of hunter/gatherer do in a concentration camp. Go visit one sometime and see the poverty, depression, suicide, hopelessness. to the many who are getting an education and become successful on saw mills, trucking companies or whatever my hat is off to them for they have risen above the odds and made success from what could be more trajedy.
My grandparents were native and made a decent living from guiding trapping and hunted and fished when they needed food to feed 9 children. they never took a handout and were not affiiated with any reserve. Although poor by comparison to the white expectation they were very happy on their homesteaded little piece of land.
A televison education on aboriginal culture (the savages) was written by white folks and is not an accurate depiction of the true culture.
Get an education if you would like to make an informed statement. Start by listening to many of the informed elders on the culture and history.
One i heard thought it was hilarious Columbus is given credit for discovering America "as we were not lost, he was" the natives offered cohabitation to their new "friends". Some and not all of the settlers viewed natives as savages or pagans despite having their own culture, goverment and religion. This from a white culture that was still hunting down heretics and witchs and burning them at the stake. That is civilized.
the natives did not bring a knife to a gun fight but rather welcomed the settlers and assisted them in many ways in acquiring food and shelter in what was considered a harsh climate. The reward was the taking of all land and being set up in concentration camps where speaking their language, practicing their religion or even passing the native ways education on to their childeren was declared illegal. A once proud society has many problems which some members can't overcome but many are doing well. I think it was Mark Twain who said "if the definition of a ni**er is a shiftless lazy person we have a few white ones as well". As has been mentioned there are lazy folks in all cultures. Some as well aspire to greater things but removing treaty rights is just breaking more promises and widening the gap between have and have not. Just as some homeless people are just unlucky in their circumstances that put them on the street some natives just can't seem to catch a break to get out of the rut. the so called "reverse discrimination" laws gives them some advantages to correct past injustices from a largely prejudiced society. Look around many don't fit the sterotype that was typical twenty years ago, and in twenty more years more progress will be made. 200 years can't be overcome in a short period of time.

[lannie]

We are talking about METIS hunting "rights". Not taking status rights away.
The metis want to INCREASE unregulated access to the wildlife. This is a new deal. Stereotyping is never fair to anyone. I could care less if someone thinks
i'm cheap or drink too much scotch because my grandfather came from scotland. I have also seen french girls who were less than 9's and ukrainians who did not like cabbage. As "they" say - don't sweat the small stuff.

[mulecrazy]

In no way do I say that they should have to give up any treaty rights. There should be some control over animal harvest. The needy can still hunt for food, for free, but there needs to be some control. To continue moving the native people in a forward progressive manner things may have to change a little. And as far as I am concerned, If you move off the reserve and have a career and a successful life, there is absolutely no reason for special treatment. Can I blame some for taking advantage of the system? nope, but that doesn't mean its right. abuse is abuse.

[Jamie]

I think I am out, they pull me back in.

First off I am sick and tired of all the non-native people on this board playing the victim. Our hunting rights are pretty much the only advantage we have over non-natives.

Bill Maher said it best that racism is still alive and well. But most white people only recognize reverse racisim. They don't lynch people any more but those feelings are still there brewing deeply. Trying to strip our hunting rights are just another more relevent tactic. Sure in a perfect world everyone would be equal. But this isn't Eutopia.

The feeling you get when you see a native person deep in your gut is hate. As long as it's there we can never be equal. Alberta is to Canada as the "deep south" is to the united states. There are far deeper issues masking themselves in the posts that so frequently occur. Just because you say you are not racist
does not make it so. It's not all the non-native's fault. Hate flows both ways. Hate breeds ignorance and pettyness. That's why these threads tend to follow the same patterns.

I am aboriginal. I practice subsistance hunting. I feed my family. I will not apologize for it. And I will do whatever it takes to keep this right.

Yeah.. Bill Maher is the best example you can come up with...
Isnt he the guy who said they wrap the flank rope around the "Bulls Balz`in order to make him buck harder..

Just because you seem to think I `Hate`you when I see you, doesn't mean you are correct. In fact the ability to even say such a thing reeks of lack of self confidence. Grow a set will yah.


I think the best thing that can happen to any tribe is to have self governance of their lands. Right now the Gov owns them. Let the Bands have at them and those that fail will die, those that prosper will make out ok.

This is a issue with lots of pitfalls. Unfortunately we seem to have a group (Metis) who like to ask for way more than they deserve. (imho)

If we as a nation keep giving away part of who we are, soon we will have no idea who we are.

One people, one set of rules.

Jamie

[TreeGuy]

Flint, you owe Caper28 an apology. With the government sponsered, native abuse of the fisheries in Atlantic Canada, his post is likely the most polite one I've read on the issue in a decade.

[whitetail Junkie]

Flint, you owe Caper28 an apology. With the government sponsered, native abuse of the fisheries in Atlantic Canada, his post is likely the most polite one I've read on the issue in a decade.

Well From what I Remember,A few months ago, you were Making racist Jokes about French people,so Maybe your the one who owe's an apology????

[Walleyes]

Nah I had something to say but it just ain't worth it any more..

Tell you all what,,, cry me a fricken river would yah..

[TreeGuy]

Well From what I Remember,A few months ago, you were Making racist Jokes about French people,so Maybe your the one who owe's an apology????

Yet again, you reinforce the validity of my posts. ;)

Please do not derail a good thread because they tied your cammo corresset on too tight.

[Matt L.]

wwbirds, I don't know where you learned your "history", but you really need to go take another look at it. I'll give you a point to start off with: why do you think that the majority of the tribes were nomadic or semi-nomadic?

[ganderblaster]

Its interesting that most forum members just shrug their shoulders when it is mentioned that sheep outfitters have the whopping amount of tags that they do because they made a deal with the goverment years back yet when natives make a deal it is a serious problem.Speaking of status Indian rights here not Metis.Although I have not one drop of native blood in me that I am aware of to me a deal is a deal and I'm proud to live in Canada where deals are for the most part kept and the goverment is mainly trustworthy.While there has been some horrible deeds done in the past I am also proud that Canada was somewhat less brutal then the States in this whole thing.To me all men are equal and I have to hand it to the chiefs back in the day for negotiating the deal they did.I live near one of the largest reserves in Alberta and have never met another sustenance hunter in my life but I also sympathize with those who live where this right to sustenance hunt is being abused and the game is scarce.My knowledge of the Metis rights is limited but in my opinion if they also negiated a deal thats one thing but if they are after additional oppurtunities thats just being greedy.

[whitetail Junkie]

Yet again, you reinforce the validity of my posts. ;)

Please do not derail a good thread because they tied your cammo corresset on too tight.

Thats A Good One,Thanks for coming out:happy0034:

[S.A.S]

Non-Natives, are just Jelous that they dont have the hunting& Fishing, privlages that our aboriginal people do.



Everyday when I wake up I wish I was an Indian........LOL. Ya ok buddy.

Go visit one sometime and see the poverty, depression, suicide, hopelessness.

They do this to themselves, White man does not go into the reserves and make them ****holes. I drove through a reserve once by accident, the one by gleichan with my dad while gopher shooting, Houses were missing half the siding other houses were run down.

If the Indians want respect they will need to stop blaming the government for all their problems and take responsibility for their actions.

[leo]

Perhaps the provincial gov. should look at having subsistence hunters(Whites,metis,treaty)apply for a yearly permit? They used to have an Alberta Health Care premium exemption form to fill out for low income families . Why not for subsistence hunters who fall into low income brackets? I do not beleive that some one who makes a decent income should be part of the problem, rather they should pay for tags and become part of the solution to sustaining our resources , irregardless of color or creed. Just a thought , no insult intended to anyone:)

[Caper28]

Flint, you owe Caper28 an apology. With the government sponsered, native abuse of the fisheries in Atlantic Canada, his post is likely the most polite one I've read on the issue in a decade.

I tired to keep it as civil as posible. The native issue is not as big a deal out here as it is on the east coast and most on this site would not understand. It's not just natives we blame, it's also the white man. See, back there you can rent an indian, as they call it, to go shoot moose out of season and with out a tag. Happens on a daily basis, and it's illegal. And I have no use for those guys eather. If it wasn't for the ones buying salmon off the indians they wouldn't have any need to slaughter as many fish as they do. So I don't blame just the indians. It's a complicated situation back there, and most on here don't understand exactly what's going on there.

[antlercarver]

I am not native or metis. I see subsistence hunting as a way which a person views themselves and a connection to family and who they are. Very similar to us celebrating Christmas even though we don"t act or live like Christians.

[mac_xi@hotmail.com]

That many people posting to this thread have no real knowledge of Canadian history. And it is obvious that many will not get passed the "them vs you" mentality.

Let me assume one thing though. And correct me if I am wrong. But by the logic posted on this thread, most of you support the gun registry. That is also a peice of legislation that treats all gun owners "equal", regardless if you are a criminal or not. The same way us native subsistance hunters should be treated "equal" beacuse of a few who abuse the system.

And until some logical posts are added, I will just sit back and watch this thread roll into the gutter due to pettyness and ignorance. I'm out......

[Espo]

what would everyone be happy with?
on one side of the argument by the posters is everyone buys tags and hunts during the season
the other side wants subsistence hunting year round for all species

nobody will be happy with anything in between

right now there are several instances of inequality
youths get cheaper tags
youths and seniors don't have to buy a fishing licence
handicapped persons can hunt with crossbow, off of ATV, etc
the non-resident alien can buy a moose tag in a draw zone every year

If you want equality you are living on the wrong planet it will never happen

[flint]

I tired to keep it as civil as posible. The native issue is not as big a deal out here as it is on the east coast and most on this site would not understand. It's not just natives we blame, it's also the white man. See, back there you can rent an indian, as they call it, to go shoot moose out of season and with out a tag. Happens on a daily basis, and it's illegal. And I have no use for those guys eather. If it wasn't for the ones buying salmon off the indians they wouldn't have any need to slaughter as many fish as they do. So I don't blame just the indians. It's a complicated situation back there, and most on here don't understand exactly what's going on there.

In your first post on this thread you blamed the natives and natives only. You targeted them as poachers. Now you are back peddleing and saying that whites are also to blame. The primary reason because of low fish densities is because of white commercial fishing. The only "natural" right that they have remaining is to hunt and fish. Now you and others what to take it away from them. Early voyagers, settlers, church and state had taken everything else.......their land, homes, childrens innocents, killed, raped and then placed on reserves. Let me remind you again that a recent court case was settled because childrens innocents were robbed from them by church and state------this is only the tip of the iceberb. Fishing and hunting for white's is a privilage and not our natural right.... this natural right belongs to the aboriginals. White's hunt for sport, and if they want or need meat then go to the white grocery stores. Stop complaining that the aboriginals have more then us and be greatful of what you have, that you can go hunting and fishing. I will always defend the aboriginals from ignorance. If there is no fish on the east coast then that is your problem, not the aboriginals....the fish belong to them!

[RobinHood]

In your first post on this thread you blamed the natives and natives only. You targeted them as poachers. Now you are back peddleing and saying that whites are also to blame. The primary reason because of low fish densities is because of white commercial fishing. The only "natural" right that they have remaining is to hunt and fish. Now you and others what to take it away from them. Early voyagers, settlers, church and state had taken everything else.......their land, homes, childrens innocents, killed, raped and then placed on reserves. Let me remind you again that a recent court case was settled because childrens innocents were robbed from them by church and state------this is only the tip of the iceberb. Fishing and hunting for white's is a privilage and not our natural right.... this natural right belongs to the aboriginals. White's hunt for sport, and if they want or need meat then go to the white grocery stores. Stop complaining that the aboriginals have more then us and be greatful of what you have, that you can go hunting and fishing. I will always defend the aboriginals from ignorance. If there is no fish on the east coast then that is your problem, not the aboriginals....the fish belong to them!

I wouldn't bite the hand that feeds you!

[AxeMan]

In your first post on this thread you blamed the natives and natives only. You targeted them as poachers. Now you are back peddleing and saying that whites are also to blame. The primary reason because of low fish densities is because of white commercial fishing. The only "natural" right that they have remaining is to hunt and fish. Now you and others what to take it away from them. Early voyagers, settlers, church and state had taken everything else.......their land, homes, childrens innocents, killed, raped and then placed on reserves. Let me remind you again that a recent court case was settled because childrens innocents were robbed from them by church and state------this is only the tip of the iceberb. Fishing and hunting for white's is a privilage and not our natural right.... this natural right belongs to the aboriginals. White's hunt for sport, and if they want or need meat then go to the white grocery stores. Stop complaining that the aboriginals have more then us and be greatful of what you have, that you can go hunting and fishing. I will always defend the aboriginals from ignorance. If there is no fish on the east coast then that is your problem, not the aboriginals....the fish belong to them!

Flint, actually you are wrong about the rights thing. The HUNTING, FISHING AND TRAPPING HERITAGE ACT Chapter H-15.5 gives me that RIGHT.

It is in the hunting regulations as well.

HUNTING, FISHING AND TRAPPING
HERITAGE ACT
Chapter H-15.5
(Assented to May 15, 2008)
Preamble
WHEREAS hunting, fishing and trapping have played
important roles in shaping Alberta’s social, cultural and
economic heritage;
WHEREAS hunters, anglers and trappers have made
important contributions to the understanding, conservation,
restoration and management of Alberta’s fish and wildlife
resources; and
WHEREAS the best traditions of hunting, fishing and
trapping should be valued by future generations:
THEREFORE HER MAJESTY, by and with the advice and
consent of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta, enacts as
follows:
Right to hunt and fish
1(1) A person has a right to hunt, fish and trap in accordance
with the law.
(2) The reference to the law in subsection (1) includes the
Wildlife Act, the Fisheries Act (Canada), the Migratory
Birds Convention Act, 1994 (Canada) and the
regulations made under those Acts.
Non-derogation of aboriginal rights
2 Nothing in this Act derogates from any aboriginal right to
hunt, fish or trap.

[diamonddave]

If there is no fish on the east coast then that is your problem, not the aboriginals....the fish belong to them!

The wildlife belong to everybody not one group, and one group is not responsible for the collapse. Its not one group that does the rape and pillage of the resource, and one group that lets it happen. Everybody is responsible to make sure the resources are still there for our kids. Things change, its called progress, and we as a whole need to adapt and move on. The programs are in place for the true subsistanse hunting and if you qualify, use it. If you don't qualify everybody should be held to the same standards.

[S.A.S]

I wouldn't bite the hand that feeds you!

They will not learn until it is to late.

[unclebuck]

flint, I have had many dealings with our "indigenous" people over my years in the north. Over that time, I have been approached many times to buy fish of every species that were netted as subsistence, moose, deer, elk, and woodland caribou. I have seen animal carcasses, shot under the guise of subsistence hunting being fed to the dogs. I have seen pickups(the treaty & metis owners of which I knew) loaded to the fender wells with walleye, most of which exceeded 5 lbs., that were peddled along the highway for beer money. Please do not climb on your tall pony and tell me that they have their perceived inherent right to rape Canada's natural resources like that. Have you had a look at our federal budget where in excess of $600million is allocated to them? What is the eventual disposition of those funds? For the size of the population, it sure as hell, on a per capita basis beats the hell out of what I earned by getting up in the morning and going to work, and having to pay their way through my taxes. By the same token I know some dam fine aboriginals that comply with the same laws that we are required to comply with. In fact, I hunt with several of them.

[Rafter]

im tasting blood from biting my lip so hard on this one. ill try to do this as politely as possible, but i make no promises.

i had the misfortune of actually going out bowhunting with one of the 2 guys initiating the court case. i really didnt know him, but he was a neighbour of my uncle. my uncle asked if he could come along for the day, an i agreed. i wish i hadnt. the whole drive out he professed to me to be a great accomplished hunter and a trophy collecting machine. on the drive, he smoked non-stop. did i mention we were going bowhunting? you know....like getting close may matter? anyway. as we approached the pasture we were heading for, there were a couple of nice mule bucks in the ditch along the road. he was screaming to stop the truck as we pulled alongside. when the deer hopped the fence and bounded into the field, he drew his bow back and was going to shoot at them running at 50 yards. i was yelling form the back seat "dont be a "*&*&% idiot". he didnt shoot, but blamed me for scaring them away. i was giving ol unc the hairy eyeball and it wasnt even legal light yet. without too many long details, i didnt see an infraction that day, but a few were attempted until i reminded him of the rules. needless to say, i did not go out with the guy again. when my uncle asked if he could come with to the mighty whitetail land up north i told him ABSOLUTELY NO WAY! and if i ever found out he took him there behind my back id boot him in the nuts so hard my cousins would be sterile.
so anyway, when the metis hunting thing took effect, he and his kid immediatley went on a SUBSISTENCE killing spree that resulted in a couple of 400 class bull elk from suffield and a few big mule bucks in the 190 range. funny how the self proclaimed trophy hunter who had never taken a legit trophy size animal (yes i agree....eye of the beholder) is all of a sudden a meat hunter like his anscestors but happens to like his meat with giant antlers.
i usually try hard not to make personal statements about others when i post here, but this guy is a sloth in every way. he doesnt give a crap about way of life or subsistence tradition....he is just looking for a way to kill trophy animals. thats it! 209 is absolutely right in what he said. these two know exactly what they are entitled to and are looking to get themselves an advantage.
mods, if this post is too offensive and gets removed, i apologize and understand. the thread on herdbull/whitetailer/chris was way more extensive than this, and in my opinion, this guy is at least as offensive as what he did.

and before anyone asks why i didnt report the activities i saw that day, its because i stopped him from doing something illegal before he did it. believe me, had i known, i may have been temtped to let him follow through just so i could report him.

You forgot to mention his name. It has to be Gary Hirsekorn as the other guy doesn't smoke!

[Rafter]

3/4 of the people that post in this thread have no clue about native history and how the treaties came about , they only see the present situation ,but really don't have a clue.

I seen an interesting TShirt the other day it read:

It's an Aboriginal Thing
You Wouldn't Understand

Makes sense doesn't it.

[Rafter]

When I see Metis subsistence fishermen climb into their 185 with floats and head out to their favorite lake(walleyes knows who I mean), and see other subsistence fishermen who own a trucking company situated in more than one place, that is worth in excess of $60 million, and subsistence fishing at Touchwood, I have a huge problem(walleyes knows him as well). Was there a fish fry at the Ponoka Stampede?

Smart Metis, why walk when you can fly?

[ARGO GUY]

In your first post on this thread you blamed the natives and natives only. You targeted them as poachers. Now you are back peddleing and saying that whites are also to blame. The primary reason because of low fish densities is because of white commercial fishing. The only "natural" right that they have remaining is to hunt and fish. Now you and others what to take it away from them. Early voyagers, settlers, church and state had taken everything else.......their land, homes, childrens innocents, killed, raped and then placed on reserves. Let me remind you again that a recent court case was settled because childrens innocents were robbed from them by church and state------this is only the tip of the iceberb. Fishing and hunting for white's is a privilage and not our natural right.... this natural right belongs to the aboriginals. White's hunt for sport, and if they want or need meat then go to the white grocery stores. Stop complaining that the aboriginals have more then us and be greatful of what you have, that you can go hunting and fishing. I will always defend the aboriginals from ignorance. If there is no fish on the east coast then that is your problem, not the aboriginals....the fish belong to them!



Are you freakin kidding me the fish belong to them !!!!!!!!!! Get a freakin life

[Rafter]

I think I am out, they pull me back in.

First off I am sick and tired of all the non-native people on this board playing the victim. Our hunting rights are pretty much the only advantage we have over non-natives.

Bill Maher said it best that racism is still alive and well. But most white people only recognize reverse racisim. They don't lynch people any more but those feelings are still there brewing deeply. Trying to strip our hunting rights are just another more relevent tactic. Sure in a perfect world everyone would be equal. But this isn't Eutopia.

The feeling you get when you see a native person deep in your gut is hate. As long as it's there we can never be equal. Alberta is to Canada as the "deep south" is to the united states. There are far deeper issues masking themselves in the posts that so frequently occur. Just because you say you are not racist
does not make it so. It's not all the non-native's fault. Hate flows both ways. Hate breeds ignorance and pettyness. That's why these threads tend to follow the same patterns.

I am aboriginal. I practice subsistance hunting. I feed my family. I will not apologize for it. And I will do whatever it takes to keep this right.

It is your right, exercise it proudly

[pottymouth]

In your first post on this thread you blamed the natives and natives only. You targeted them as poachers. Now you are back peddleing and saying that whites are also to blame. The primary reason because of low fish densities is because of white commercial fishing. The only "natural" right that they have remaining is to hunt and fish. Now you and others what to take it away from them. Early voyagers, settlers, church and state had taken everything else.......their land, homes, childrens innocents, killed, raped and then placed on reserves. Let me remind you again that a recent court case was settled because childrens innocents were robbed from them by church and state------this is only the tip of the iceberb. Fishing and hunting for white's is a privilage and not our natural right.... this natural right belongs to the aboriginals. White's hunt for sport, and if they want or need meat then go to the white grocery stores. Stop complaining that the aboriginals have more then us and be greatful of what you have, that you can go hunting and fishing. I will always defend the aboriginals from ignorance. If there is no fish on the east coast then that is your problem, not the aboriginals....the fish belong to them!

Flint, racial slurrs work both ways......I find it offensive!

[Sporty]

Just a few points then I'm stepping quietly out of this thread

The Metis subsistence is to be just that, subsistence hunting. Metis are not supposed to be out trophy hunting under the guise of subsistence and if anyone sees them doing it, they should call and report them immediately.

I, as a Metis, believe that a different system should have been put in place, tags given during regular season so kills can be tracked. That being said, the majority of Metis hunters are respectful of the environment and resources and there aren't a lot that shoot out of season or any ole place they feel like it or trophy hunt. There will always be bad apples but please don't stereotype the whole for the few.

To the person that stated that Metis receive all kinds of hand outs, we don't. The only "hand out" or special privileges we have received has been the hunting. We work, pay taxes, pay our own health care, GST, etc such as everyone else does.

People should read and learn about Metis settlements. The settlements and Metis (as a whole) are two different breeds. Not all Metis can go live on a settlement any time they want to. They are very proprietary and quite often they are settled by certain families and have a council to which someone has to apply to live there and most often those applications are denied. The settlements were only created in the 1930's by certain people lobbying the government. Metis were living all over Alberta long before the settlements went into effect. Living on a settlement does not make someone more Metis than those that don't and not living on one doesn't negate the subsistence hunting given to "all" Metis.

Lastly, I have never used my Metisness to hunt. I have always bought my tags, I have never trophy hunted, I only shot 1 moose per season as that is the only wild game that I eat. Because of this agreement, I quit hunting as on my last trip, another group that my husband and I encountered found out I was Metis, because I look Native and one of them actually had the nerve to ask my husband to see my tags. I will no longer go out as I'm now receiving extra attention to the already extra attention I had already had because of my race.

[sheephunter]

The Metis subsistence is to be just that, subsistence hunting. Metis are not supposed to be out trophy hunting under the guise of subsistence and if anyone sees them doing it, they should call and report them immediately.


I totally agree but a lot of the new Metis of convenience don't see it that way. I'm all for the rights of subsistence hunting entrenched in our constitution......sadly, some of the new Metis of convenience see it as a licence to poach. And sadly, depending on this court decision, that licence to poach may become the law of the land. It seems many of the new Metis of convenience cowardly shroud themselves in the rights that some still rely on the feed their families. Therein lies the rub.

[Tuc]

This thread like most of the Metis topics is headed to the dump.

REALLY, is there anything to say that already hasn't been said 1000 times? :argue2:

[sheephunter]

This thread like most of the Metis topics is headed to the dump.

REALLY, is there anything to say that already hasn't been said 1000 times? :argue2:

The info about the court case is definitely worth keeping an eye on as it may well shape the future of hunting in this province.

[Nationwide]

some of the new Metis of convenience see it as a licence to poach. "A LICENCE TO POACH" Humm very interesting :thinking-006:

[AxiALe]

make them use a rock and a stick like the old days and i wouldn't have a problem with,other wise its just poaching!!!!!!!

[300savage]

Perhaps the provincial gov. should look at having subsistence hunters(Whites,metis,treaty)apply for a yearly permit? They used to have an Alberta Health Care premium exemption form to fill out for low income families . Why not for subsistence hunters who fall into low income brackets? I do not beleive that some one who makes a decent income should be part of the problem, rather they should pay for tags and become part of the solution to sustaining our resources , irregardless of color or creed. Just a thought , no insult intended to anyone:)

Now that is a solution that actually makes sence. I for one would vote for that solution

[fickell]

300 savage for president i agree 100 %

[S.A.S]

make them use a rock and a stick like the old days and i wouldn't have a problem with,other wise its just poaching!!!!!!!

This is a legitimate response. A bow & Arrow would work as well, Make them use the tools of their ancestors.

[Boss442]

make them use a rock and a stick like the old days and i wouldn't have a problem with,other wise its just poaching!!!!!!!

:sHa_shakeshout: Idiots

[greylynx]

Fact:

EIGHT BILLION DOLLARS, $8,000,000,000, is paid EVERY YEAR by taxpayers to support the aboriginals.

What does the taxpayer see for this EIGHT BILLION DOLLARS?

As for Metis. My neighbor has Metis relatives on his large Angus farm.

Do I have any deer left on my farm?:sign0176:

This "our culture" trap is killing the wildlife, and I don't see any change in the near future:sign0176:

[blackpheasant]

Fact:

EIGHT BILLION DOLLARS, $8,000,000,000, is paid EVERY YEAR by taxpayers to support the aboriginals.

What does the taxpayer see for this EIGHT BILLION DOLLARS?

As for Metis. My neighbor has Metis relatives on his large Angus farm.

Do I have any deer left on my farm?:sign0176:

This "our culture" trap is killing the wildlife, and I don't see any change in the near future:sign0176:

The taxpayer see's nothing because the Dept. of Indian Affairs cannot be auditted, I believe it is the only Gov. Dept. that can't be auditted - this is because taxpayers would be outraged if they new about the waste and corruption within this Dept.

[flint]

Flint, actually you are wrong about the rights thing. The HUNTING, FISHING AND TRAPPING HERITAGE ACT Chapter H-15.5 gives me that RIGHT.

It is in the hunting regulations as well.

HUNTING, FISHING AND TRAPPING
HERITAGE ACT
Chapter H-15.5
(Assented to May 15, 2008)
Preamble
WHEREAS hunting, fishing and trapping have played
important roles in shaping Alberta’s social, cultural and
economic heritage;
WHEREAS hunters, anglers and trappers have made
important contributions to the understanding, conservation,
restoration and management of Alberta’s fish and wildlife
resources; and
WHEREAS the best traditions of hunting, fishing and
trapping should be valued by future generations:
THEREFORE HER MAJESTY, by and with the advice and
consent of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta, enacts as
follows:
Right to hunt and fish
1(1) A person has a right to hunt, fish and trap in accordance
with the law.
(2) The reference to the law in subsection (1) includes the
Wildlife Act, the Fisheries Act (Canada), the Migratory
Birds Convention Act, 1994 (Canada) and the
regulations made under those Acts.
Non-derogation of aboriginal rights
2 Nothing in this Act derogates from any aboriginal right to
hunt, fish or trap.

This is not a natural right, and if it is, why can't you utilize it anytime of the year? You are restricted by law to hunt for the quanity of animals, times and places. Aboriginal rights don't restrict them to the noted above and rightly so. Accept the privilage to hunt and fish and be happy with that.

[AxeMan]

Flint, I am not going to argue with you. You said hunting is not our "right", it is a privilege. I simply pointed out some legislation that we fought hard for to say it is our "right". You can twist things and make up ideas in your head but it is our "right" and the Alberta Government put forth this act to make it the law. Simple as that. A natural right is something you made up in your head. The First Nations and Metis also have their own pieces of legislation.

[sheephunter]

Flint, I am not going to argue with you. You said hunting is not our "right", it is a privilege. I simply pointed out some legislation that we fought hard for to say it is our "right". You can twist things and make up ideas in your head but it is our "right" and the Alberta Government put forth this act to make it the law. Simple as that. A natural right is something you made up in your head. The First Nations and Metis also have their own pieces of legislation.

Sounds like a right to me....not sure what a natural right is but this sounds like a legal right to me too.............I'm pretty sure things in the constitution would be legal rights as well but I could be wrong.

Right to hunt and fish
1(1) A person has a right to hunt, fish and trap in accordance
with the law

I'm with Axe...we fought hard to get this right! It's definitely not a privilage...it's a right.

[ARGO GUY]

This is not a natural right, and if it is, why can't you utilize it anytime of the year? You are restricted by law to hunt for the quanity of animals, times and places. Aboriginal rights don't restrict them to the noted above and rightly so. Accept the privilage to hunt and fish and be happy with that.


We have rules in place on when we can harvest animals for a few reasons and if you do not understand what they are you my friend need to do some research. As for the rights for Aboriginal's being allowed to harvest what ever when ever does not make it right.

[just]

There are hundreds of laws enacted in Canada where it favours one and not others. Let's start with Martin's Annual Criminal Code of Canada. Why is there a more severe punishment to murdering a Peace Officer then it is to murder a commoner? Is a Peace Officer's life more valuable than your's or mine? Why can't I use a crossbow for hunting during the archery season, but the other guy can because of an injury. He can shoot from his vehicle because he can't walk. I don't have to wear a seat belt because I'm pregnant. The list go's on and on. I know that these are exceptions, but are they equal to others? There are no laws in any country that treats every person equally. None! Furthermore, if every person was treated equally by law it dosen't necessary mean that it will be practiced. In otherwords, laws are broken. Laws are not racist, only some favor special groups or minorities. Regardless, at the end of the day the Aboriginals will receive the shorter end of the stick because some great white hunter thinks that hunting is his right and not our natives.

" I don't have to wear a seat belt because I'm pregnant." That's a bad idea!!!! You can wear a seat belt when you are pregnant and should, why would you want a pregnant women to be killed in a car crash????? You need to wear the seat belt lower to make sure you don't hurt the baby but really!!??

[leo]

This is not a natural right, and if it is, why can't you utilize it anytime of the year? You are restricted by law to hunt for the quanity of animals, times and places. Aboriginal rights don't restrict them to the noted above and rightly so. Accept the privilage to hunt and fish and be happy with that.

With this statement Flint ,you have described what is perceived to be the problem with the current set up. To the aboriginals it is a right , to everyone else it is a priveledge. And that priveledge is very fickle in many parts of North America (anti hunting sentiment) .Our priveledges can be stripped away by a large contingent of anti hunting sentiment, but not theirs.

[Sporty]

Fact:

EIGHT BILLION DOLLARS, $8,000,000,000, is paid EVERY YEAR by taxpayers to support the aboriginals.

What does the taxpayer see for this EIGHT BILLION DOLLARS?

As for Metis. My neighbor has Metis relatives on his large Angus farm.

Do I have any deer left on my farm?:sign0176:

This "our culture" trap is killing the wildlife, and I don't see any change in the near future:sign0176:


Well don't feel bad, the everyday Aboriginal doesn't see much of that money either. By the time it filters down through all the bureaucracy there isn't much left.

That really doesn't have anything to do with the Metis. Being First Nations and Metis is not the same, we don't get the same rights and privileges that First Nations do.

I thought this thread was about Metis harvesting rights........

[leo]

With this statement Flint ,you have described what is perceived to be the problem with the current set up. To the aboriginals it is a right , to everyone else it is a priveledge. And that priveledge is very fickle in many parts of North America (anti hunting sentiment) .Our priveledges can be stripped away by a large contingent of anti hunting sentiment, but not theirs.

What I should have added to this was that Priveledges come with a measure or responsabilities in order to maintain them . Rights have no such burden placed upon them...I'm not Racist or in judgement of any aboriginals ,I'm just explaining what the differences are that I see.

[rhuntley12]

Now that is a solution that actually makes sence. I for one would vote for that solution

X2

Being a import Albertan I find it pretty interesting the Metis and First Nations deals.

I remember growing up near the puget sound in Washington and going out with my father to was the Indians catching salmon and then cooking them. They shared with the spectators.

I'm really surprised that the people allowed to hunt all year wouldn't want things a little more "regulated" to preserve the population for everyone. My impression is it's more of an issue that they get to hunt what they want then making sure there are animals to hunt tomorrow?

[Rafter]

I totally agree but a lot of the new Metis of convenience don't see it that way. I'm all for the rights of subsistence hunting entrenched in our constitution......sadly, some of the new Metis of convenience see it as a licence to poach. And sadly, depending on this court decision, that licence to poach may become the law of the land. It seems many of the new Metis of convenience cowardly shroud themselves in the rights that some still rely on the feed their families. Therein lies the rub.

I do not agree to the term cowardly. The Metis are fighting the Alberta Government out in the open. They knowingly risked equipment siezures, fines and imprisonment, and employment opportunities.

I wonder how many people on this forum, including yourself, would put everything on the line to fight for what you believe in, against an oppressive Provincial Government run by a few politicians with their own personal agendas at heart.

The Metis are a proud part of the Canadian history.

One of the leaders of the Alberta Government is a person who wants to extinguish all Aboriginal rights not only in Alberta but in this country. He was nurtured in his homeland to the South and brings it up here into Canada. The taxpayers of Canada are duped into paying for his egotistical campaign.

[Rafter]

X2

Being a import Albertan I find it pretty interesting the Metis and First Nations deals.

I remember growing up near the puget sound in Washington and going out with my father to was the Indians catching salmon and then cooking them. They shared with the spectators.

I'm really surprised that the people allowed to hunt all year wouldn't want things a little more "regulated" to preserve the population for everyone. My impression is it's more of an issue that they get to hunt what they want then making sure there are animals to hunt tomorrow?


You are sadly misinformed! What proof do you have to support the fallacy that the Metis do not support regulated hunting. I do not think you could produce any evidence to subtantiate your claim. Read their Harvesting Policy on their website if you want proof to negate the misinformation you put forth. Talk is cheap, wheres the proof????

[Rafter]

Sounds like a right to me....not sure what a natural right is but this sounds like a legal right to me too.............I'm pretty sure things in the constitution would be legal rights as well but I could be wrong.



I'm with Axe...we fought hard to get this right! It's definitely not a privilage...it's a right.


I guess we will find out soon enough if the Metis have a legal right to harvest for subsistance. I guess that would answer the question of whether it is legal for them or not.

Know this, if the Metis fail at the Provincial level, the tax payers of this country will be paying for the litigation to proceed through higher levels of the Justice system. Work hard my friend and pay lots of taxes to help with this silliness.

The conclusion is foregone, the highest law in the land states they have the right to harvest for food and other purposes. The Metis lawyers have won at the highest levels of the court system and are now winning at the lower court level.

[flint]

I do not agree to the term cowardly. The Metis are fighting the Alberta Government out in the open. They knowingly risked equipment siezures, fines and imprisonment, and employment opportunities.

I wonder how many people on this forum, including yourself, would put everything on the line to fight for what you believe in, against an oppressive Provincial Government run by a few politicians with their own personal agendas at heart.

The Metis are a proud part of the Canadian history.

One of the leaders of the Alberta Government is a person who wants to extinguish all Aboriginal rights not only in Alberta but in this country. He was nurtured in his homeland to the South and brings it up here into Canada. The taxpayers of Canada are duped into paying for his egotistical campaign.

Yes, and Mr. Ted Morton introduced paid hunting in Southern Alberta. Sound simular to the good ole U.S. of wide America! Well at least he is not the Minister of SRD.....well maybe that is not a good thing after all, he has a bigger roll to play now. The Metis are a proud part of this Country and I wish that people would know the history of this the First Nations, Metis and the New Country Born.

[ARGO GUY]

I guess we will find out soon enough if the Metis have a legal right to harvest for subsistance. I guess that would answer the question of whether it is legal for them or not.

Know this, if the Metis fail at the Provincial level, the tax payers of this country will be paying for the litigation to proceed through higher levels of the Justice system. Work hard my friend and pay lots of taxes to help with this silliness. The conclusion is foregone, the highest law in the land states they have the right to harvest for food and other purposes. The Metis lawyers have won at the highest levels of the court system and are now winning at the lower court level.

This is the kind of stupid statement that makes people mad. Why should my hard earned taxes be spent fighting a BS court case.How any of you can justify that you should be allowed to kill anything at anytime and anywere is crap.You can yap about the past all you want as CANADIANS WE SHOULD ALL BE HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS.

[sheephunter]

I guess we will find out soon enough if the Metis have a legal right to harvest for subsistance. I guess that would answer the question of whether it is legal for them or not.

Know this, if the Metis fail at the Provincial level, the tax payers of this country will be paying for the litigation to proceed through higher levels of the Justice system. Work hard my friend and pay lots of taxes to help with this silliness.

The conclusion is foregone, the highest law in the land states they have the right to harvest for food and other purposes. The Metis lawyers have won at the highest levels of the court system and are now winning at the lower court level.

Metis already have the right to harvest for subsistence...Powley assures that. This court case isn't about their right to subsistence hunting, it's about where they can extend that right. I hope it does go to the supreme court and Powley is upheld and we can end this once and for all.

[sheephunter]

I do not agree to the term cowardly. The Metis are fighting the Alberta Government out in the open. They knowingly risked equipment siezures, fines and imprisonment, and employment opportunities.

.

I didn't say the Metis were cowardly...I said the Metis of convenience were cowardly...you know, the ones that never even had a Metis card nor do they know anything of the Metis traditions yet as soon as they found out out they could trophy hunt under the guise of subsistence, they got their card. Those are the cowards. Those are the ones that deserve no respect from the non-Metis nor the Metis themselves. They are abusing a heritage they have no ties to to circumvent the laws of the land. They know nothing of subsistence hunting......They know nothing nor do they care about the proud tradition of the Metis people.

[Matt L.]

flint, I'm really having a hard time figuring you out. It sounds like you really believe what you say. I wonder if you remember that chief who said on national radio that he would shoot the last squirrel on earth because it was his right.

[huntinstuff]

They call me "whitey"

At birth, I was pink.

When Im cold, I turn blue.

When I fly, I turn green.

When I eat spicy food, I turn red.

When Im in the sun, I turn brown.

When I bump my knee, it turns red, then purple, then brown, then yellow.

So why do they call me "whitey".......................

:):):)

[honda450]

So why do they call me "whitey".......................

:):):)

Cause of your hair. hehehe:scared0018:

[rhuntley12]

You are sadly misinformed! What proof do you have to support the fallacy that the Metis do not support regulated hunting. I do not think you could produce any evidence to subtantiate your claim. Read their Harvesting Policy on their website if you want proof to negate the misinformation you put forth. Talk is cheap, wheres the proof????

The fact they don't force themselves to follow the regulations that everyone else follows?

That they stage hunts just to protest?

That they allow their members to hunt during sensitive times on the animals?

[Nationwide]

make them use a rock and a stick like the old days and i wouldn't have a problem with,other wise its just poaching!!!!!!!Theres that word again if someone has the right to hunt how is it poaching !!

[sheephunter]

if someone has the right to hunt how is it poaching !!

Rights come with restrictions so if you conduct activities outside of those conditions, you would be poaching.

[Okotokian]

Rights come with restrictions so if you conduct activities outside of those conditions, you would be poaching.

And there's the rub... the restrictions... Some see them as reasonable, some see them as contravening their "rights". Hunting season, bag limits, registering firearms, what is a restricted or prohibited weapon... Sort of depends what side of the fence you are on as to what is a reasonable restriction.

Everyone thinks they have a "right" to everything they personally hold dear or want. If it isn't in the constitution, a treaty, or a legal precedent it isn't your right. Certainly fight to make it one if you wish, but there are no natural rights.

[Nationwide]

Rights come with restrictions so if you conduct activities outside of those conditions, you would be poaching.

Well I would be guessing that statement would be open to interpretation if you asked a "white guy" that buy’s his license he might agree with you .
Then again if you asked a person that has the right to hunt without buying a license.
I am sure they would disagree that they are poaching but only hunting within there rights that were given to them.

[sheephunter]

Well I would be guessing that statement would be open to interpretation if you asked a "white guy" that buy’s his license he might agree with you .
Then again if you asked a person that has the right to hunt without buying a license.
I am sure they would disagree that they are poaching but only hunting within there rights that were given to them.

The Metis rights to hunt are not without restriction and conditions.

[walking buffalo]

Can someone here answer this question,

When did the Metis first come to the land now known as Alberta?

[Espo]

are the metis hunting rights the same as the native rights. if so i don't think there are many restrictions. even spotlighting is legal if i recall correctly

[sheephunter]

are the metis hunting rights the same as the native rights. if so i don't think there are many restrictions. even spotlighting is legal if i recall correctly

No, they are not the same according to Powley.

[Espo]

with restrictions and enforcment there should be no problems. when you buy a hunting lisense, there are restrictions. and you are a poacher if you don't follow them. the saame as if you were a subsistence hunter. report everything you see and the problems should go away quickly.

[sheephunter]

with restrictions and enforcment there should be no problems. when you buy a hunting lisense, there are restrictions. and you are a poacher if you don't follow them. the saame as if you were a subsistence hunter. report everything you see and the problems should go away quickly.

If only it were that simple. Unfortunately,Powley left a fair bit open to interpretation and it's those grey areas that are the problem.

[echo]

They should have no rights,in this day and age and at the rate of decline in populations.I don't have problem with someone who shoots an animal to feed their family, white or metis without a license or out of season.what i do have a problem with is with metis rights everybody seems to qualify and all of a sudden its not substance hunting,but turns into trophy hunting all year long,if they want the right to hunt do it by traditional means which are horses,legs,arrows and spears not fords,chevs,or high powered rifles.There will come a day when hunting was a past time!!!!

[walking buffalo]

Why do people keep posting that the Metis should hunt with "Traditional tools", Bows, arrows and rocks?

The very first Metis grew up with a gun. The one his French father gave him.

[echo]

Why do people keep posting that the Metis should hunt with "Traditional tools", Bows, arrows and rocks?

The very first Metis grew up with a gun. The one his French father gave him.

So if they grew up with modern tools why should they get treated any different than the rest of the population?? What makes them so SPECIAL?

[sheephunter]

So if they grew up with modern tools why should they get treated any different than the rest of the population?? What makes them so SPECIAL?

The Canadian Constitution.

[echo]

The Canadian Constitution.

So i guess i'll just go back to work pay my taxes so that my own tax dollars can support this B.S. and as they wipe out our animals i'll wait for my draw results to find out if i'm lucky enough to hunt this year in a country that i consider just as much mine as theirs!!

[flint]

flint, I'm really having a hard time figuring you out. It sounds like you really believe what you say. I wonder if you remember that chief who said on national radio that he would shoot the last squirrel on earth because it was his right.

Can't figure me out because I'm white and avocating the Aboriginals and Metis. I quess that we have our right to hunt in Alberta, after a long hard fight and then we talk on the other side of our faces and say that the Metis and Aboriginals cannot have their rights. Yes MattL, how many animals are extinct because of us, the white man? How much wildlands destroyed for agriculture, development, oil, forestry and the list goes on.

[echo]

Can't figure me out because I'm white and avocating the Aboriginals and Metis. I quess that we have our right to hunt in Alberta, after a long hard fight and then we talk on the other side of our faces and say that the Metis and Aboriginals cannot have their rights. Yes MattL, how many animals are extinct because of us, the white man? How much wildlands destroyed for agriculture, development, oil, forestry and the list goes on.

And in fact who are the people who benifit from this as well,,,,,let me guess the aboriginals & the metis they are all about the enviroment and wildlife until they get their ransome money and then all is forgotten.am i right or wrong?

[Rafter]

Metis already have the right to harvest for subsistence...Powley assures that. This court case isn't about their right to subsistence hunting, it's about where they can extend that right. I hope it does go to the supreme court and Powley is upheld and we can end this once and for all.

SheepHunter,

I agree.

Rafter

[walking buffalo]

So if they grew up with modern tools why should they get treated any different than the rest of the population?? What makes them so SPECIAL?

I can't answer that one. Beats me? (other than as SH said, the constitution)

People of European lineage and culture arrived and lived in Alberta before there were Metis here. From what I have been able to learn ( asking for more input from those more knowledgeable on the subject), the first Metis in Alberta were children of "white" fur trappers and local "Indians".

The main attraction for Metis immigration from the east to Alberta was the fur trade, in particular the Buffalo hide business in the early to mid 1800's. Culturally ingrained conservation ethics.... my as*.

Hunting rights is just the beginning for Metis "Special Constitutional Rights" to natural resources. If broad "rights" to fish and wildlife is successfully obtained, logging, mineral, and water rights are soon to be asked for next.

[Rafter]

If only it were that simple. Unfortunately,Powley left a fair bit open to interpretation and it's those grey areas that are the problem.

Sheephunter,

I agree with your comment again>

Rafter

[Okotokian]

and as they wipe out our animals !

Would be interesting to know the extent/impact of unregulated aboriginal hunting on game populations. I certainly don't know the stats, but I wonder if the true size of the bite would influence anyone's position on either side. I wouldn't be too concerned if the take was less than, say, what non-residents take... the folks we are only too happy to welcome. I dunno...

[Espo]

leo
in your post#99 you say to give subsistence hunting to the poor and not the rich. isn't that just changing the problem not solving it. you would be giving subsistence hunting rights to a portion of the people and not others according to their income. don't know if that's equality. not saying your right or wrong. just playing devil's advocate.

[bear-fighter]

I don't have a problem with "anybody" taking and animal if they're hungry, just don't be driving past 300 tasty looking does to shoot a trophy buck or a 45 pound mountain goat for sustanance

[Rafter]

This is the kind of stupid statement that makes people mad. Why should my hard earned taxes be spent fighting a BS court case.How any of you can justify that you should be allowed to kill anything at anytime and anywere is crap.You can yap about the past all you want as CANADIANS WE SHOULD ALL BE HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS.

Argo Guy,

My statement should make every one mad. It infuriates me.

You are right it is a BS court case.

However if you want to change or uphold the law it is going to cost you, its that simple.

Think about it Aboriginals tax contributions are also paying for the BS court case.

If you really think about it the only ones profiting are the elected officials and their friends. However we voted them it so I guess we can't complain too much.

Rafter

[Rafter]

I don't have a problem with "anybody" taking and animal if they're hungry, just don't be driving past 300 tasty looking does to shoot a trophy buck or a 45 pound mountain goat for sustanance

Every one knows that a Ram tastes better than a Ewe. Everyone knows that there is more meat on a buck than a doe.

What is the definition of Trophy anyways?????

[sheephunter]

Every one knows that a Ram tastes better than a Ewe. Everyone knows that there is more meat on a buck than a doe.

What is the definition of Trophy anyways?????

LOL...I'm guessing some of the Metis of convenience could answer your last question better than most hunters here. They seem to spend and awful lot of time and money in search of one particular animal, passing countless other in the search. Many of them subscribe to the B&C method of scoring big game animals as the definition while practicing their subsistence rights but I'm sure it's just because a higher scoring animal tastes better.......

[leo]

leo
in your post#99 you say to give subsistence hunting to the poor and not the rich. isn't that just changing the problem not solving it. you would be giving subsistence hunting rights to a portion of the people and not others according to their income. don't know if that's equality. not saying your right or wrong. just playing devil's advocate.

I'm not saying that I'm right or not, but I think even the harshest critics would have difficulty denying an animal to low income families for consumption. Give them a special permit and a time frame to harvest provided they meet criteria, and let them feed their family . Point of fact, an SRD friend of mine told me. He charged a fellow with taking a moose out of season, the farm stead looked in poor shape, there were small children running about. He did charge him for the infraction and seized the animal, but the next moose he seized he delivered cut and wrapped to the same family. We should not punish anyone for feeding their family (even though the laws state otherwise) regardless of color or heritage. That is truely denying mankind of "rights" .Just ideas that I toy with , I certainly don't expect anyone to agree with me as I am not nieve enough to think I will change anyones opinions.

[walking buffalo]

Can't figure me out because I'm white and avocating the Aboriginals and Metis. I quess that we have our right to hunt in Alberta, after a long hard fight and then we talk on the other side of our faces and say that the Metis and Aboriginals cannot have their rights. Yes MattL, how many animals are extinct because of us, the white man? How much wildlands destroyed for agriculture, development, oil, forestry and the list goes on.

I also often advocate for Aboriginal causes. But my appreciation for my friends, family, and their cultures does not blind me to the fact that they are as human as everyone else.

Spend some time learning about human influenced extinctions in North America over the last 10,000 years. Many large animals have gone extinct due to North American Aboriginal hunting.

In more recent times, Aboriginal and Metis people played as large of a role as "white" people in the near extermination of Elk, Antelope, Deer, Beaver and Bison.

All human races have a track record of over-exploiting natural resources when conditions allow it.

[Boss442]

23868

[spot and stock]

I'm proud to be white.

I am able to afford my hunting tags.

I am glad I don't have to hunt for my food. I choose to.

I work, make money and spend it as I feel I should.

I don't ask anyone for special treatment, just fair treatment.

And I'm happy.


Well said sir:sHa_shakeshout:

As a man who easily quallifies for the blond haired metis card. I personally am very proud to have grown up with a father who quallified for native status and chose not to as he loved this country for what it has become, not what it was for some distant relative 200 years ago. Never missed one hunting season in 52 years and never once took an animal out of season or without a tag, his family chose to grow with this great country we all love. I agree with SH on this one, there are far too many convenience metis. Oh yah the other half of this hunter/fisherman is american!!!:)

[sheephunter]

Nice to hear spot and stock...most of my Metis friends echo your sentiments exactly.

[Espo]

I'm not saying that I'm right or not, but I think even the harshest critics would have difficulty denying an animal to low income families for consumption. Give them a special permit and a time frame to harvest provided they meet criteria, and let them feed their family . Point of fact, an SRD friend of mine told me. He charged a fellow with taking a moose out of season, the farm stead looked in poor shape, there were small children running about. He did charge him for the infraction and seized the animal, but the next moose he seized he delivered cut and wrapped to the same family. We should not punish anyone for feeding their family (even though the laws state otherwise) regardless of color or heritage. That is truely denying mankind of "rights" .Just ideas that I toy with , I certainly don't expect anyone to agree with me as I am not nieve enough to think I will change anyones opinions.

I hear what your saying leo and i don't have a problem with it. but most posters that are against the native hunting rights are calling for equality for everyone. i am not naive enough to think that that will ever happen.
one other poster wrote that he would like to know the impact of the native, metis hunting rights. i agree if there was a way to find out, it would help the courts make a decision either way.

[Rafter]

Well said sir:sHa_shakeshout:

As a man who easily quallifies for the blond haired metis card. I personally am very proud to have grown up with a father who quallified for native status and chose not to as he loved this country for what it has become, not what it was for some distant relative 200 years ago. Never missed one hunting season in 52 years and never once took an animal out of season or without a tag, his family chose to grow with this great country we all love. I agree with SH on this one, there are far too many convenience metis. Oh yah the other half of this hunter/fisherman is american!!!:)

Spot and Stock,

Do you know what the requirements are to qualifiy for a Metis card is? Just curious is all.

Thanks,
Rafter

[Nationwide]

The Metis rights to hunt are not without restriction and conditions.

If you haven't noticed everyone else’s that “hunt's ” and That buys a hunting license are not without restriction's are you saying poaching dosen’t happen during the reg hunting season !!! :thinking-006:

[sheephunter]

If you haven't noticed everyone else’s that “hunt's ” and That buys a hunting license are not without restriction's are you saying poaching dosen’t happen during the reg hunting season !!! :thinking-006:

Not saying that all...of course people of all races poach. The colour of skin makes it no less despicable though. Poaching is poaching.

[Nationwide]

Not saying that all...of course people of all races poach. The colour of skin makes it no less despicable though. Poaching is poaching.
Ok thanks for the reply so would it be safe to say that if one has the right to hunt it dosent make them a poacher .

[sheephunter]

Ok thanks for the reply so would it be safe to say that if one has the right to hunt it dosent make them a poacher .

A safer statement would be that just because someone has the right to hunt it doesn't make them a poacher but there are undoubtedly people of all races with the right to hunt that are also poachers. Every licenced Alberta hunter has the right to hunt but it seems every year some run astray of the law. I'm sure the same can be said of other groups that have the right to hunt.

[pottymouth]

Just my opinion, BUT if you can own a rifle, a truck, hunting gear, the gas and the time off work, oh ya house and job and computer to bee-itch how unfair you get treated for having aboriginal decent.................................I think your a liar and it's not subsistence hunting anymore.

So hold your 190 sheep head high, and know that the law allowed you to do things that I would be thrown in jail for! Just don't forget to tell the real story, not the wish I did it this way story.

And for those who are metis and choose to hunt by the same rules that govern me, I take my hat off to you,THANK YOU for being Real, and seeing the big picture. I have also seen you kill some great trophies, the White way.:sHa_shakeshout: ( you know who you are)

[ganderblaster]

That's a good question"What are the requirements for a Metis card?" As has been stated aren't they really third nations?

[sheephunter]

When this mess first began in Alberta they weren't much. I'm not sure you even had to have 1/16 First Nations background. I know the number of card-carrying Metis in the province nearly doubled when the hunting was thrown wide open. I'm sure they were just all rediscovering their heritage though. Sorry, I have all the respect in the world with those with ties to their heritage but have a hard time with those jumping on a gravy train of unregulated hunting because it's their "right" to kill animals outside of normal seasons.

[S.A.S]

That's a good question"What are the requirements for a Metis card?" As has been stated aren't they really third nations?

They are a mix between Indian and French. They are just like any other Indian just they are a bit mixed, Like Blacks with a White parent. I do not know why people try and make such a distinction between Metis and Indians, One is pure blooded one is diluted a bit.

[Boss442]

Registry and Membership with the Metis Nation of Alberta is based upon a definition of Metis, which was passed at the Annual General Assembly held in Edmonton in August 2003.

“Métis means a person who self-identifies as a Métis, is distinct from other aboriginal peoples, is of historic Métis Nation ancestry, and is accepted by the Métis Nation.”

Historical Proof: refers to evidence of an ancestor who received a land grant or a scrip grant under the Manitoba Act or the Dominion Lands Act, or who was recognized as a Métis in other government, church or community records.

Historic Métis Nation: refers to the Aboriginal people then known as Métis or Half-breeds who resided in the Historic Métis Nation Homeland.

Historic Métis Nation Homeland: is the area of land in west central North America used and occupied as the traditional territory of the Métis.

Métis Nation: means the Aboriginal people descended from the Historic Métis Nation, which now comprised of all Métis Nation peoples and is one of the “aboriginal peoples of Canada” as defined in s.35 of the Constitution Act 1982.

Distinct from other Aboriginal peoples means distinct for cultural and nationhood purposes.

The Métis are one of three distinct Aboriginal peoples of Canada, recognized under section 35 in the 1982 Constitution. Fiercely independent, the Métis were instrumental in the development of western Canada.

The Métis people were born from the marriages of Cree, Ojibwa and Salteaux women, and the French and Scottish fur traders, beginning in the mid-1600s. Scandinavian, Irish and English stock was added to the mix as western Canada was explored.

The word Métis comes from the Latin "miscere", to mix, and was used originally to describe the children of native women and French men. Other terms for these children were Country-born, Black Scots, and Half-breeds.

The Métis quickly became intermediaries between European and Indian cultures, working as guides, interpreters, and provisionary to the new forts and new trading companies. Their villages sprang up from the Great Lakes to the Mackenzie Delta. The Métis Homeland encompasses parts of present-day Ontario, British Columbia, the Northwest Territories, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba.

Métis culture was a fusion of French, English and Indian influences that took root and flourished until the late 1800s. The Métis developed a unique language called Michif. Their fiddlers combined jugs and reels into their music. Métis attire included woven sashes, embroidered gun sheaths, deer hide caps, quilled and beaded pipe bags. The Métis developed technologies such as the Red River Cart. Expert hunters, they made formidable soldiers.

They also developed a unique political and legal culture, with strong democratic traditions. The Métis had elected buffalo councils to organize buffalo hunts. By 1816, the Métis had challenged the Hudson Bay Company’s monopoly in the fur trade, and began to develop a national consciousness.

The Métis formed the majority of the population at the Red River Colony. Louis Riel’s provisional government negotiated the entry of Manitoba into Canadian confederation in 1870. But federal promises of land in the Manitoba Act were not fulfilled. After ten years of delay, the government introduced the now-notorious scrip system. These certificates for land or money replaced direct land grants. Speculators who followed the Scrip Commissions snapped up scrip. Aware that the Métis were defrauded of their land, the government ignored the abuse and facilitated the business of the speculators.

The Royal Proclamation of 1763 made the crown responsible for the well being of aboriginal peoples and forbid the dismembering of their lands. But the federal government refused to acknowledge its responsibilities for the Métis, and their political rights as a sovereign people were not recognized.

Impoverished and frustrated, the Métis appealed to Louis Riel once again and in 1885 he led a resistance in North-western Saskatchewan, near the Métis settlements of Duck Lake and Batoche. Despite support from farmers, Blackfoot and Cree, the Canadian army crushed the resistance. Riel and his provisional government were arrested and tried, and Riel was executed in Regina on November 16, 1885.

By the 1930s, associations to lobby for a land base were formed in Saskatchewan and Alberta. In 1936, Alberta government granted 1,280,000 acres of land for Métis Settlements, a precedent that has allowed the contemporary Métis of Alberta to obtain limited control of housing, health, child welfare and legal institutions.

The 1960s saw the emergence of renewed political organizations. During the constitutional talks of 1982 and enshrined in the Constitution Act, 1982 the Métis were recognized as one of the three aboriginal peoples of Canada.

In 1992, Louis Riel was recognized as one of the founders of Confederation by the same government that had called him a demented rebel and hanged him.

[ganderblaster]

So anyone with a "white" parent and a native parent is Metis?(excuse my ignorance)the number of Metis could be substantial then eh?

[sheephunter]

So anyone with a "white" parent and a native parent is Metis?(excuse my ignorance)the number of Metis could be substantial then eh?

It goes far beyond parents to qualify for a card in Alberta. The First Nations connection can be several generations removed.

[Boss442]

So anyone with a "white" parent and a native parent is Metis?(excuse my ignorance)the number of Metis could be substantial then eh?

No, your family has to be directly linked to having Metis script, not just anyone with Native blood. I believe that after the IMHA that there was actually a decline in the numbers of Metis in Alberta as one of the requirements the Government outlined in the original agreement was that the Metis Nation of Alberta had to set forth a more stringent process of affirming peoples membership, subsiquently everyone that previously held a Metis card was forced to re-apply to prove there was no doubt about thier lineage.


Application/Update Requirements MNA Membership

To update/apply for a membership with the MNA you must meet the requirements of the definition of Metis and you will need to bring the following documents into your regional office:

A completed Genealogy family tree dating back to the mid 1800’s
Either a long form birth certificate which includes your parent’s names, OR a baptismal certificate along with a wallet sized birth certificate.
Picture ID (e.g.. driver's license, passport, firearms license) for swearing a Statutory Declaration
Provide proof you are a current resident of Alberta for 90 consecutive days.
Reminder to New and Existing Membership Applicants

It is your responsibility to keep your membership address and telephone contact information current.

If you have any questions about membership, please contact our head office at (780) 455-2200 or by e-mail at registry@metis.org.

New MNA Membership Cards

The Métis Nation of Alberta is issuing new membership cards to replace the existing plastic laminated ‘red and white’ cards. New membership cards will NOT be automatically issued to holders of the current ‘red and white’ card. To receive a new card, members must contact the regional or provincial registry offices to ensure that all necessary documentation is on file to prove the card holder meets the criteria for membership.

The new membership cards contain security features that effectively remove the possibility of illegal duplication. Bar codes on the cards link to a state of the art information database containing personal and genealogical information that guarantee the holder of the card is Metis and is eligible for Aboriginal rights under section 35 of the Constitution Act (1982).

[Tuc]

Just my opinion, BUT if you can own a rifle, a truck, hunting gear, the gas and the time off work, oh ya house and job and computer to bee-itch how unfair you get treated for having aboriginal decent.................................I think your a liar and it's not subsistence hunting anymore.


Bang on Potty!!!!
Chances are that when we pack u*p our gear to go hunting, it's for sport or trophies. You like the thrill of the hunt, the sport of taking down a majestic animal, the glory of nabbing the biggest buck. You probably don't just leave the animal there after you kill it, you eat the meat and maybe even use the pelts. But even so, your primary reason for hunting is the sport of it. If you don't bag a deer in your afternoon out, you leave disappointed and a bit frustrated, but you'll be able to rustle up some grub from your refrigerator when you get home. For some subsistence hunters, that's not always the case. Subsistence hunters hunt strictly to provide food for themselves and their families. Simply put, it's hunting for survival, RIGHT? Though it used to be a way of life for most, the need for subsistence hunting is dwindling. Grocery stores are on every corner for many of our well educated Metis city dwellers and for those who live in the rural areas I'm sure you'll find one within the hour. I don't think "subsistence hunting" is a right that should be given to all so-called Metis. If you exist in remote areas of the country where work, money, stores and other necessities of life are hard to come by, and you chose to hunt out of season, I would call you a subsistence hunter. But as Pottymouth said, if you own a house, truck, computer, (to bitch on) go to a good paying job everyday, I would call you a poacher or liar if you exercise the rights of a subsistence hunter. Metis card or no Metis card the onus lies on the word 'SUBSISTENCE'. If you don't know what it means, look it up.

[Boss442]

Bang on Potty!!!!
Chances are that when we pack u*p our gear to go hunting, it's for sport or trophies. You like the thrill of the hunt, the sport of taking down a majestic animal, the glory of nabbing the biggest buck. You probably don't just leave the animal there after you kill it, you eat the meat and maybe even use the pelts. But even so, your primary reason for hunting is the sport of it. If you don't bag a deer in your afternoon out, you leave disappointed and a bit frustrated, but you'll be able to rustle up some grub from your refrigerator when you get home. For some subsistence hunters, that's not always the case. Subsistence hunters hunt strictly to provide food for themselves and their families. Simply put, it's hunting for survival, RIGHT? Though it used to be a way of life for most, the need for subsistence hunting is dwindling. Grocery stores are on every corner for many of our well educated Metis city dwellers and for those who live in the rural areas I'm sure you'll find one within the hour. I don't think "subsistence hunting" is a right that should be given to all so-called Metis. If you exist in remote areas of the country where work, money, stores and other necessities of life are hard to come by, and you chose to hunt out of season, I would call you a subsistence hunter. But as Pottymouth said, if you own a house, truck, computer, (to bitch on) go to a good paying job everyday, I would call you a poacher or liar if you exercise the rights of a subsistence hunter. Metis card or no Metis card the onus lies on the word 'SUBSISTENCE'. If you don't know what it means, look it up.

Personally, what the Metis Nation of Alberta should have fought for was Hunting Rights "not" Subsistence Hunting.

[ishootbambi]

I didn't say the Metis were cowardly...I said the Metis of convenience were cowardly...you know, the ones that never even had a Metis card nor do they know anything of the Metis traditions yet as soon as they found out out they could trophy hunt under the guise of subsistence, they got their card. Those are the cowards. Those are the ones that deserve no respect from the non-Metis nor the Metis themselves. They are abusing a heritage they have no ties to to circumvent the laws of the land. They know nothing of subsistence hunting......They know nothing nor do they care about the proud tradition of the Metis people.

one of the guys in the court case in medicine hat is exactly of that description!!!

[Arn?Narn.]

I usually get pretty torn on these discussions...

I have seen the good and bad, but far more good in my experience.

I don't know a whole lot about Metis rights and such,..but do know a number of Metis,...a few of which are hunters...all good upstanding people who a pleasure to hunt with.

Most of my experience with native people has been with Inuit, Yupik, Chipewyan, Slavey...Dogrib...

I have rarely seen waste or disrespect for the environment, game or anything else.

my brother in law is Chipewyan and I find him to be the same.


Who exactly is it we are talking about....is it a Metis Treaty?

I honestly know very little about it,...

[Jamie]

Arn..
Any self proclaimed Metis that supposedly has some proof to back up their claims (This is verified by the Metis council) is now able to hunt with out license, at any time of the year around existing Metis settlements. Since this was not enough for the Metis powers that be, they are now in front of the courts asking to have the ability to hunt all across this province.

BUT this is just the thin edge of the wedge. Next up they will be demanding the same treatment that the Indians presently have.
What they have done in my eyes is take a great piece of Canadiana and turned it into the start of a GIMMY GIMMY GIMMY political force.

A crying shame, all that pride in what they accomplished (And rightfully so) and now it's thrown out the window. Someone needs to have their head examined.

Jamie

[Arn?Narn.]

Arn..
Any self proclaimed Metis that supposedly has some proof to back up their claims (This is verified by the Metis council) is now able to hunt with out license, at any time of the year around existing Metis settlements. Since this was not enough for the Metis powers that be, they are now in front of the courts asking to have the ability to hunt all across this province.

BUT this is just the thin edge of the wedge. Next up they will be demanding the same treatment that the Indians presently have.
What they have done in my eyes is take a great piece of Canadiana and turned it into the start of a GIMMY GIMMY GIMMY political force.

A crying shame, all that pride in what they accomplished (And rightfully so) and now it's thrown out the window. Someone needs to have their head examined.

Jamie

This is what I don't understand...

Is there a difference in Metis rights or whatever and Indians?

Who exactly are you referring to when you say Indians?

thanks

[sheephunter]

This is what I don't understand...

Is there a difference in Metis rights or whatever and Indians?

Who exactly are you referring to when you say Indians?

thanks

Do a Google search on the Powley decision and you should find all you need to know.

[whitetail Junkie]

Arn..
Any self proclaimed Metis that supposedly has some proof to back up their claims (This is verified by the Metis council) is now able to hunt with out license, at any time of the year around existing Metis settlements.

Jamie

I did'nt know that,maybe I should get my Metis Licence;)

:sSc_hiding:

[Boss442]

[QUOTE=Jamie;620345]
Any self proclaimed Metis that supposedly has some proof to back up their claims (This is verified by the Metis council) is now able to hunt with out license, at any time of the year around existing Metis settlements. Since this was not enough for the Metis powers that be, they are now in front of the courts asking to have the ability to hunt all across this province.

Sorry Jamie but its not supposed proof! Each applicant is verified by genealogists. For what purpose would it serve the Metis Nation of Alberta to give just anyone membership?

[TangoKilo]

I did'nt know that,maybe I should get my Metis Licence;)

:sSc_hiding:

Maybe you should!!

Keep in mind, there were no Metis in Canada prior to European colonization.
:thinking-006:

[flint]

When this mess first began in Alberta they weren't much. I'm not sure you even had to have 1/16 First Nations background. I know the number of card-carrying Metis in the province nearly doubled when the hunting was thrown wide open. I'm sure they were just all rediscovering their heritage though. Sorry, I have all the respect in the world with those with ties to their heritage but have a hard time with those jumping on a gravy train of unregulated hunting because it's their "right" to kill animals outside of normal seasons.

What about the "gravy train" you and your buddy rode when the government allowed 3 or 4 mule deer doe tag's in WMU 108. You and buddy slaughtered 7 or 8 doe's just to make a cheap hunt for T.V.( I believe that you titled the show "Skinhead Masacare") Just because the government throws us a bone we don't have to knaw at it until it is almost gone. Now the buck population is down because of over hunting. Many of those doe's killed were possibly pregnant with buck fawn's. To consume 4 doe's in less than one year is alot of venison. You took more than your daily bread for that show. Don't talk about riding the "gravey train" and that it is your "right" .Of course that is your right because it fulfilled your want; however, for other people it is not alright.

[blackpheasant]

:party0051:

[Sporty]

They are a mix between Indian and French. They are just like any other Indian just they are a bit mixed, Like Blacks with a White parent. I do not know why people try and make such a distinction between Metis and Indians, One is pure blooded one is diluted a bit.


Its much more than simply being part French and Native. The Metis is a nation with our own language, culture, traditions and in the past, our own government. The Metis people are a distinct people.

As for membership, it has become more stringent. Many people that had membership in the past (prior to Powley) lost their memberships because they didn't meet the requirements. There definitely has been an influx of Metis (of convenience) but if they met the requirements they are able to get a membership. A family member is the genealogist for the MNA and she is the one that did our family's genealogy years ago, long before Powley. Even so, each member of our family had to go through the application process, there were no special favors because we were related to her.

I'm not going to argue that there aren't Metis that are abusing this right because there is but it isn't on the scale that is being posted here. Just as any group there will always be those that take advantage of something but the vast majority of Metis people are hunting within the guide lines of this agreement and not abusing it. People posting here are making it seem as though most Metis are out trophy hunting which isn't the case and its misleading because I can bet my bottom dollar that those posting about the trophy hunters never witnessed this themselves, its a whole lot of he said she said going on to validate their opposition to this agreement. To say all Metis lost our pride because of this agreement is over stating, the majority of us have not lost anything.

I encourage anyone that has issues with the Metis people to attend any number of functions held around Alberta at different times of the year and sit down and talk with people. I'm sure you'll get a better light of what it means to be Metis for many of us. Too many people are reading biased opinions on boards such as this and taking it as truth when in fact the majority it purely speculation and biased opinions. There is a festival in Batoche Saskatchewan held every year in July (18th-25th, 2010). If people really want to understand what the Metis are about, go check it out.

[leo]

Its much more than simply being part French and Native. The Metis is a nation with our own language, culture, traditions and in the past, our own government. The Metis people are a distinct people.

As for membership, it has become more stringent. Many people that had membership in the past (prior to Powley) lost their memberships because they didn't meet the requirements. There definitely has been an influx of Metis (of convenience) but if they met the requirements they are able to get a membership. A family member is the genealogist for the MNA and she is the one that did our family's genealogy years ago, long before Powley. Even so, each member of our family had to go through the application process, there were no special favors because we were related to her.

I'm not going to argue that there aren't Metis that are abusing this right because there is but it isn't on the scale that is being posted here. Just as any group there will always be those that take advantage of something but the vast majority of Metis people are hunting within the guide lines of this agreement and not abusing it. People posting here are making it seem as though most Metis are out trophy hunting which isn't the case and its misleading because I can bet my bottom dollar that those posting about the trophy hunters never witnessed this themselves, its a whole lot of he said she said going on to validate their opposition to this agreement. To say all Metis lost our pride because of this agreement is over stating, the majority of us have not lost anything.

I encourage anyone that has issues with the Metis people to attend any number of functions held around Alberta at different times of the year and sit down and talk with people. I'm sure you'll get a better light of what it means to be Metis for many of us. Too many people are reading biased opinions on boards such as this and taking it as truth when in fact the majority it purely speculation and biased opinions. There is a festival in Batoche Saskatchewan held every year in July (18th-25th, 2010). If people really want to understand what the Metis are about, go check it out.

I have to agree that the majority of Metis people are proud and honest folk. My question is , what do the Metis who exercise this right to hunt year round contribute to the sustainability of wild life and the environment(and i don't mean ideologically). Do they make a modest financial contribution, or donate their time or resources to the tax payers of Alberta? I'm not asking as a smart ass, I don't know so could you help me by answering:)

[sheephunter]

What about the "gravy train" you and your buddy rode when the government allowed 3 or 4 mule deer doe tag's in WMU 108. You and buddy slaughtered 7 or 8 doe's just to make a cheap hunt for T.V.( I believe that you titled the show "Skinhead Masacare") Just because the government throws us a bone we don't have to knaw at it until it is almost gone. Now the buck population is down because of over hunting. Many of those doe's killed were possibly pregnant with buck fawn's. To consume 4 doe's in less than one year is alot of venison. You took more than your daily bread for that show. Don't talk about riding the "gravey train" and that it is your "right" .Of course that is your right because it fulfilled your want; however, for other people it is not alright.

You really live by the credo "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story" don't you.

Go troll on someone else's posts Gary.....I've got no interest in getting in a debate with you or your family. It seems inventing lies about someone's personal life is the Vallmarie first line of attack(Ty is exempt from this statement)....I'm not playing.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h44/sheephunterab/feedTroll.gif

[Okotokian]

I'm not saying that I'm right or not, but I think even the harshest critics would have difficulty denying an animal to low income families for consumption. .

I guess I'm one of the harshest critics then... I don't support subsistence hunting. There are a lot of other things that could be done to remedy the situation.

[leo]

I guess I'm one of the harshest critics then... I don't support subsistence hunting. There are a lot of other things that could be done to remedy the situation.

Ok, I respect your opinion but elaborate a bit more:)

[sheephunter]

Its much more than simply being part French and Native. The Metis is a nation with our own language, culture, traditions and in the past, our own government. The Metis people are a distinct people.

As for membership, it has become more stringent. Many people that had membership in the past (prior to Powley) lost their memberships because they didn't meet the requirements. There definitely has been an influx of Metis (of convenience) but if they met the requirements they are able to get a membership. A family member is the genealogist for the MNA and she is the one that did our family's genealogy years ago, long before Powley. Even so, each member of our family had to go through the application process, there were no special favors because we were related to her.

I'm not going to argue that there aren't Metis that are abusing this right because there is but it isn't on the scale that is being posted here. Just as any group there will always be those that take advantage of something but the vast majority of Metis people are hunting within the guide lines of this agreement and not abusing it. People posting here are making it seem as though most Metis are out trophy hunting which isn't the case and its misleading because I can bet my bottom dollar that those posting about the trophy hunters never witnessed this themselves, its a whole lot of he said she said going on to validate their opposition to this agreement. To say all Metis lost our pride because of this agreement is over stating, the majority of us have not lost anything.

I encourage anyone that has issues with the Metis people to attend any number of functions held around Alberta at different times of the year and sit down and talk with people. I'm sure you'll get a better light of what it means to be Metis for many of us. Too many people are reading biased opinions on boards such as this and taking it as truth when in fact the majority it purely speculation and biased opinions. There is a festival in Batoche Saskatchewan held every year in July (18th-25th, 2010). If people really want to understand what the Metis are about, go check it out.

Well said Sporty and I agree that trophy hunting isn't rampant throughout the Metis community but it has to be a concern. I don't think it can just be swept under the rug either. And yes, I have seen the results. You make some great points about the Metis and what it means to be Metis and it's unfortunate that an unscupulous faction is riding your coat tails for nefarious reasons.

[Rafter]

Personally, what the Metis Nation of Alberta should have fought for was Hunting Rights "not" Subsistence Hunting.

Boss442,

Thank you for the informative post. It's an eye opener for every one on this forum.

It sure dispels the myth that is floating on this site regarding the "Convenience Metis" and the mass flooding of applications by people to become a Metis because of nothing more than just gaining hunting rights.

In reality there are only 15,000 Metis in Alberta that can justifiably claim and prove that they are Metis as set out by Powley. This is actually a drop in the 46,000 Metis that claimed to be Metis prior to Powley. The myth that there are more Metis is false. In actuality there are less Metis in the Province that are rights bearing, or in other words allowed to hunt for food.

There are 86,000 people in Alberta who claim to be Metis on the census, there were 46,000 that claimed to be Metis to the Metis Nation of Alberta, and there are only 15,000 Metis that can prove they are Metis.

Of the 15,000 Metis that are rights bearing Aboriginals there are only 1000 +/-individuals that actually hunt. In other words if any other people that claim they are Metis but can not prove it will be found guilty in a Court of Law. Also they will not be defended by the Metis Nation of Alberta.

The misinformation that has gone on this forum has no fact behind it whatsoever.

Thanks for bringing the truth to us.

Rafter

[sheephunter]

In reality there are only 15,000 Metis in Alberta that can justifiably claim and prove that they are Metis as set out by Powley. This is actually a drop in the 46,000 Metis that claimed to be Metis prior to Powley. The myth that there are more Metis is false. In actuality there are less Metis in the Province that are rights bearing, or in other words allowed to hunt for food.

Rafter, I'm not saying you are wrong but are you sure that the number of Metis in Alberta spiked prior to Powley? By my recollection, the rexamination of Metis rights came after Powley because of the huge influx of "new" Metis created by Powley. Basically the Metis of convenience. I have all the numbers somewhere in my files but I thought you might know off hand.

[Rafter]

Well said Sporty and I agree that trophy hunting isn't rampant throughout the Metis community but it has to be a concern. I don't think it can just be swept under the rug either. And yes, I have seen the results. You make some great points about the Metis and what it means to be Metis and it's unfortunate that an unscupulous faction is riding your coat tails for nefarious reasons.

Sheephunter,

I believe you are right, as in any society or culture there is always a percentage that bring shame upon the rest.

I also believe that the numbers are low for the unscrupulous fraction of the Metis.

I think the Government of Alberta is focussing on who are the rights bearing Metis in this Province in their fight against the Metis Nation of Alberta. In my opinion this is a good thing as so many wannabes claim to be Metis when they are not. Once this gets settled there will be less bad apples(wanabes etc...) out there to bring shame on the the true Metis rights bearing society.

Thanks,
Rafter

[Rafter]

Rafter, I'm not saying you are wrong but are you sure that the number of Metis in Alberta spiked prior to Powley? By my recollection, the rexamination of Metis rights came after Powley because of the huge influx of "new" Metis created by Powley. Basically the Metis of convenience. I have all the numbers somewhere in my files but I thought you might know off hand.

Sheephunter,

No. What I am saying is that there are less Metis that are rights bearing in Alberta, post Powley. There were 46,000 people claming to be Metis prior to Powley, but of that, the vast majority have no proof. To date there are only 15,000 that have proven to be rights bearing Metis in the Province. The vast majority of the 46,000 have no status, therefore no Metis rights or legal representation from the Metis Nation of Alberta. In retrospect Powley was a good thing as not every person claiming to be Metis have hunting rights, only the people that can prove they are part of the rights bearing group. This equates to only 15,000 compared to the census of 86,000. Therefore the number has drastically diminshed post Powley, a good thing for the true Metis.

Thanks,
Rafter

[Jack&7]

Well....

I cannot believe that I have waited so long to post on this thread because this issue (and many others that are VERY similar) are ones that I feel very strongly about. I have read every post thus far and I would like to say a few things:

First...I would like to congratulate everyone for keeping this to a civil discussion (for the most part) that I feel has shed some light on a few things. I would hazard to guess that I am not the only one who feels they have learned something here. And I would also like to thank the mods for not closing this thread and allowing this discussion to continue. I think we all benefit..

Second...I would also like to thank those members that posted some well-thought out, researched, constructive posts for both sides of the issue. I cannot name them all, but suffice it to say that I was not surprised by who some of them were...they are members that I have come to respect for their opinions. I have also found some new respect for other members that I didn't before.

I have many opinions on this subject, a lot of which has been expressed by others so I won't re-hash what has already been discussed. But after reading all of the posts, I am left with one question that I seem to be asking a lot over the past few years...particularly after 9/11/2001:

If we all know that each group (whatever type of group that may be) has some bad apples in it that are casting a dark shadow on the rest of the group by their improper actions, what are the "upstanding" members of the group doing to police their own?

I honestly feel that if the rest of the world could see that you, as a fine upstanding member of your group, was doing something to identify the situation...remedy it....or potentially oust the bad apples from the group, the animosity that is directed towards your group would decrease.

Muslims vs. extremist Muslims, law-abiding hunters vs. poachers, Metis vs. "Convenience Metis", motorcycle riders who ride safely vs. immature punks who wreak havoc on the roads, etc. etc.

The list can go on and on and the model can be applied to any group. The solution has to come from within first before any other outside influences can affect change.

Just my 2 cents...hopefully it makes good sense.

[flint]

You really live by the credo "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story" don't you.

Go troll on someone else's posts Gary.....I've got no interest in getting in a debate with you or your family. It seems inventing lies about someone's personal life is the Vallmarie first line of attack(Ty is exempt from this statement)....I'm not playing.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h44/sheephunterab/feedTroll.gif

Tuck tail and slide out the back door again. You talk on both sides of your mouth and always get caught. Your discipline through magazines and video's is about your personal life in the hunting world and likewise with everyone else who contribute on this forum. Not many but some issues and comments you have made I take with a grain of salt. You can complicate the obvious and trivalize the momentous accompanied by fraudulent innuendoes. When you lie, don't tell half lies.

[leo]

Well....

I cannot believe that I have waited so long to post on this thread because this issue (and many others that are VERY similar) are ones that I feel very strongly about. I have read every post thus far and I would like to say a few things:

First...I would like to congratulate everyone for keeping this to a civil discussion (for the most part) that I feel has shed some light on a few things. I would hazard to guess that I am not the only one who feels they have learned something here. And I would also like to thank the mods for not closing this thread and allowing this discussion to continue. I think we all benefit..

Second...I would also like to thank those members that posted some well-thought out, researched, constructive posts for both sides of the issue. I cannot name them all, but suffice it to say that I was not surprised by who some of them were...they are members that I have come to respect for their opinions. I have also found some new respect for other members that I didn't before.

I have many opinions on this subject, a lot of which has been expressed by others so I won't re-hash what has already been discussed. But after reading all of the posts, I am left with one question that I seem to be asking a lot over the past few years...particularly after 9/11/2001:

If we all know that each group (whatever type of group that may be) has some bad apples in it that are casting a dark shadow on the rest of the group by their improper actions, what are the "upstanding" members of the group doing to police their own?

I honestly feel that if the rest of the world could see that you, as a fine upstanding member of your group, was doing something to identify the situation...remedy it....or potentially oust the bad apples from the group, the animosity that is directed towards your group would decrease.

Muslims vs. extremist Muslims, law-abiding hunters vs. poachers, Metis vs. "Convenience Metis", motorcycle riders who ride safely vs. immature punks who wreak havoc on the roads, etc. etc.

The list can go on and on and the model can be applied to any group. The solution has to come from within first before any other outside influences can affect change.

Just my 2 cents...hopefully it makes good sense.

It makes perfectly good sense, finding a judgement council to pass punishment with out being labeled as biased would be the first of many hurdles.

[Sporty]

Well said Sporty and I agree that trophy hunting isn't rampant throughout the Metis community but it has to be a concern. I don't think it can just be swept under the rug either. And yes, I have seen the results. You make some great points about the Metis and what it means to be Metis and it's unfortunate that an unscupulous faction is riding your coat tails for nefarious reasons.


I can't speak on behalf of others, I myself don't agree with many aspects of this agreement and because of that I chose to buy my tags as I always did after the agreement went through. I can only be responsible for myself. That being said, I don't know if I would turn the other cheek if I knew of someone personally abusing this right, as of now I know no one that has abused it.

I have different opinions of what constitutes "subsistence" and what doesn't but that is also something that I've kept to myself because I'm not walking in anyone else's shoes. I do know of people that have hunted, within season, with their harvesting rights but they also do what Metis have done traditionally. They share their kills with elders and the less fortunate, it is something they've always done, long before Powley and I can't judge them on that. One thing for certain is that I was Metis long before Powley as was my family. We have a strong proud line of Metis people going as far back as Red River Manitoba. My great great grandfather and 2 of his brothers fought along side Louis Riel in the Red River Rebellion and the Battle of Batoche, Metis to me is my life, not a fad, not something I found because of some new rights and for that I will defend Metis people, not because of some harvesting agreement.

I said in my original post that Trophy hunting is not allowed, there are guidelines from the Metis Nation themselves on their website. If people know of Metis abusing these rights and stepping out of the guidelines, report them.

[Arn?Narn.]

Boss442,

Thank you for the informative post. It's an eye opener for every one on this forum.

It sure dispels the myth that is floating on this site regarding the "Convenience Metis" and the mass flooding of applications by people to become a Metis because of nothing more than just gaining hunting rights.

In reality there are only 15,000 Metis in Alberta that can justifiably claim and prove that they are Metis as set out by Powley. This is actually a drop in the 46,000 Metis that claimed to be Metis prior to Powley. The myth that there are more Metis is false. In actuality there are less Metis in the Province that are rights bearing, or in other words allowed to hunt for food.

There are 86,000 people in Alberta who claim to be Metis on the census, there were 46,000 that claimed to be Metis to the Metis Nation of Alberta, and there are only 15,000 Metis that can prove they are Metis.

Of the 15,000 Metis that are rights bearing Aboriginals there are only 1000 +/-individuals that actually hunt. In other words if any other people that claim they are Metis but can not prove it will be found guilty in a Court of Law. Also they will not be defended by the Metis Nation of Alberta.

The misinformation that has gone on this forum has no fact behind it whatsoever.

Thanks for bringing the truth to us.

Rafter

WOW !...I was under the impression that were many many many more Metis status hunters than those numbers...

Does that 15,000 include men women and children? I'm sure it must.

with only 1000 legally hunting under status,...and of that 1000 I wonder what the percentage is of those that are taking advantage or concentrating on trophies...

Is it possible, based on the numbers above, that this whole thing is blown way out of proportion?

Depending on the number of "convenience metis" that make that 1000 hunters, i'd almost suspect that the issue with Metis hunting rights is smaller issue than non metis poachers...

[Sporty]

^^^ It has been blown out of proportion. People are not going by facts, they are reacting emotionally to the agreement and who it was given to. There has been more of the "I heard of this one guy" rather than "I know someone". There is a lot of he said she said going on and people shouldn't be so quick to believe everything they hear as though its the gospel truth.

[Arn?Narn.]

^^^ It has been blown out of proportion. People are not going by facts, they are reacting emotionally to the agreement and who it was given to. There has been more of the "I heard of this one guy" rather than "I know someone". There is a lot of he said she said going on and people shouldn't be so quick to believe everything they hear as though its the gospel truth.

I believe that is true. I also think that some of the hunting rights seem so contradictory to people that are not Metis, or first nations or.... that it seems much bigger than it really is. What I mean is that there is much ado about a deer shot in June... It just seems so wrong to those who are restricted to seasons. and becasue it seems so wrong, it gets much more talked about, and elongated and on and on,..until one would believe that that every hour of the day, somewhere in their hunting WMU, during the month of June ..a Metis is killing deer.

[sheephunter]

I believe that is true. I also think that some of the hunting rights seem so contradictory to people that are not Metis, or first nations or.... that it seems much bigger than it really is. What I mean is that there is much ado about a deer shot in June... It just seems so wrong to those who are restricted to seasons. and becasue it seems so wrong, it gets much more talked about, and elongated and on and on,..until one would believe that that every hour of the day, somewhere in their hunting WMU, during the month of June ..a Metis is killing deer.

I see nothing wrong with a Metis shooting a deer in June and I see nothing wrong with a Metis hunter taking several deer in June to feed others in the Metis community. This is a big part of the Metis heritage. What I and I think most non-status hunters do have a problem with is Metis driving from Medicine Hat to Pincher Creek to target trophy bighorn rams. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is not part of the Metis hertitage that I'm aware of nor does it fall under the definition of subsistence.

There's nothing contradictory at all about Metis hunting rights when excercised in the spirit the right was granted.

[Arn?Narn.]

I see nothing wrong with a Metis shooting a deer in June and I see nothing wrong with a Metis hunter taking several deer in June to feed others in the Metis community. This is a big part of the Metis heritage. I do have a problem with Metis driving from Medicine Hat to Pincher Creek to target trophy bighorn rams. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is not part of the Metis hertitage that I'm aware of nor does it fall under the definition of subsistence.

There's nothing contradictory at all about Metis hunting rights when excercised in the spirit the right was granted.

My question is, how big a portion of the legal (status) Metis are doing this.
Anyone else can be charged, including Metis who are not status.

Do you think there are more Metis doing this than non Metis (white) as poachers?

If in fact it is illega to target trophies, than have they been reported?

I read that all cases on Metis hunting would go to court with the burden being to prove legal right.


If there are only 100 ststus Metis hunters... just how many are driving up to pincher Creek form Medicine Hat.

One is too many, if it is illegal...

again, I'm pretty sure I read that trophy hunting was not a right and that all cases of Metis hunting based on status would go to court...

Is this wrong?

Still reading what I can...

[Arn?Narn.]

I see nothing wrong with a Metis shooting a deer in June and I see nothing wrong with a Metis hunter taking several deer in June to feed others in the Metis community. This is a big part of the Metis heritage. What I and I think most non-status hunters do have a problem with is Metis driving from Medicine Hat to Pincher Creek to target trophy bighorn rams. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is not part of the Metis hertitage that I'm aware of nor does it fall under the definition of subsistence.

There's nothing contradictory at all about Metis hunting rights when excercised in the spirit the right was granted.

Not everyone sees as you do... I know of many people who have issue with a deer being taken in June,...put a decent growing rack on that deer, and even more problem.

[Rafter]

WOW !...I was under the impression that were many many many more Metis status hunters than those numbers...

Does that 15,000 include men women and children? I'm sure it must.

with only 1000 legally hunting under status,...and of that 1000 I wonder what the percentage is of those that are taking advantage or concentrating on trophies...

Is it possible, based on the numbers above, that this whole thing is blown way out of proportion?

Depending on the number of "convenience metis" that make that 1000 hunters, i'd almost suspect that the issue with Metis hunting rights is smaller issue than non metis poachers...


Arn?Narn,

The 15,000 includes old ladies in wheel chairs, old men, and many non hunters

Yes this has been blown way out of proportion.

There are no stats that I am aware of but I hazard a guess of less than 1% are just hunting for trophies when they are only supposed to be hunting for food. These opportunists are breaking Metis rules

Yes, I agree that Metis hunting numbers does not even come close in comparison with non Metis poachers. In saying that there are bad apples in the Metis bunch also but the numbers obviously would be very low in comparison to non Metis numbers just because of the sheer volume of non Metis hunters. It's all relative. Metis 1% of 1,000 = 10 All others 1% of 100,000=1000.

Thanks,
Rafter

[sheephunter]

So why the fight to extend the rights beyond how the province interprets Powley? If the numbers of Metis are so insignificant, isn't there enough game available under the current provincial interpretation to keep the Metis fed? Why would Metis need to travel hundreds of miles at great expense just to hunt for food? I keep seeing the Metis say one thing but hear another.

There is nothing preventing Metis hunters from obtaining tags through the regular season should they wish to trophy hunt and if the Metis numbers are truly so insignificant, I can't see the need to hunt away from the Metis communities for subsistence as granted in Powley. Something just doesn't add up here.

The skeptic in me says this has very little to do with subsistence hunting.....

[Rafter]

I can't speak on behalf of others, I myself don't agree with many aspects of this agreement and because of that I chose to buy my tags as I always did after the agreement went through. I can only be responsible for myself. That being said, I don't know if I would turn the other cheek if I knew of someone personally abusing this right, as of now I know no one that has abused it.

I have different opinions of what constitutes "subsistence" and what doesn't but that is also something that I've kept to myself because I'm not walking in anyone else's shoes. I do know of people that have hunted, within season, with their harvesting rights but they also do what Metis have done traditionally. They share their kills with elders and the less fortunate, it is something they've always done, long before Powley and I can't judge them on that. One thing for certain is that I was Metis long before Powley as was my family. We have a strong proud line of Metis people going as far back as Red River Manitoba. My great great grandfather and 2 of his brothers fought along side Louis Riel in the Red River Rebellion and the Battle of Batoche, Metis to me is my life, not a fad, not something I found because of some new rights and for that I will defend Metis people, not because of some harvesting agreement.

I said in my original post that Trophy hunting is not allowed, there are guidelines from the Metis Nation themselves on their website. If people know of Metis abusing these rights and stepping out of the guidelines, report them.

Sporty,

I like the idea of reporting a Metis who is in violation of their own laws.

On the lighter side we could get front license type plates that read: "Report A Metis" to go along with the Report A Poacher plates one sees out there.

Thanks,
Rafter

[Rafter]

Well....

I cannot believe that I have waited so long to post on this thread because this issue (and many others that are VERY similar) are ones that I feel very strongly about. I have read every post thus far and I would like to say a few things:

First...I would like to congratulate everyone for keeping this to a civil discussion (for the most part) that I feel has shed some light on a few things. I would hazard to guess that I am not the only one who feels they have learned something here. And I would also like to thank the mods for not closing this thread and allowing this discussion to continue. I think we all benefit..

Second...I would also like to thank those members that posted some well-thought out, researched, constructive posts for both sides of the issue. I cannot name them all, but suffice it to say that I was not surprised by who some of them were...they are members that I have come to respect for their opinions. I have also found some new respect for other members that I didn't before.

I have many opinions on this subject, a lot of which has been expressed by others so I won't re-hash what has already been discussed. But after reading all of the posts, I am left with one question that I seem to be asking a lot over the past few years...particularly after 9/11/2001:

If we all know that each group (whatever type of group that may be) has some bad apples in it that are casting a dark shadow on the rest of the group by their improper actions, what are the "upstanding" members of the group doing to police their own?

I honestly feel that if the rest of the world could see that you, as a fine upstanding member of your group, was doing something to identify the situation...remedy it....or potentially oust the bad apples from the group, the animosity that is directed towards your group would decrease.

Muslims vs. extremist Muslims, law-abiding hunters vs. poachers, Metis vs. "Convenience Metis", motorcycle riders who ride safely vs. immature punks who wreak havoc on the roads, etc. etc.

The list can go on and on and the model can be applied to any group. The solution has to come from within first before any other outside influences can affect change.

Just my 2 cents...hopefully it makes good sense.

Jack&7,

This thread, for the most part, has been so far very informative with differing opinions given back and forth freely in a cordial manner.

I believe we are all getting a better picture of the situation.

I think we should congratulate ourselves collectively and celebrate with a JACK&7.

Thanks,
Rafter

[Arn?Narn.]

So why the fight to extend the rights beyond how the province interprets Powley? If the numbers of Metis are so insignificant, isn't there enough game available under the current provincial interpretation to keep the Metis fed? Why would Metis need to travel hundreds of miles at great expense just to hunt for food? I keep seeing the Metis say one thing but hear another.

There is nothing preventing Metis hunters from obtaining tags through the regular season should they wish to trophy hunt and if the Metis numbers are truly so insignificant, I can't see the need to hunt away from the Metis communities for subsistence as granted in Powley. Something just doesn't add up here.
The skeptic in me says this has very little to do with subsistence hunting.....


I see no reason for any extension beyong the Powley interpretation by AB...but admittedly I don't know all the ins and outs...

[Jamie]

Thin edge of the wedge guys... Thin edge of the wedge.

Jamie

[7mmremmag]

Wow this thread has come a long way. Some may not like this but i feel metis, full status natives and everyone else should be on a level playing field. The native community doesnt deserve anything more than anyone else. And as far as them not paying taxes...........Lets not even go there.
My 2 cents, which I am Legally entitled to:mad0100:

[Arn?Narn.]

Wow this thread has come a long way. Some may not like this but i feel metis, full status natives and everyone else should be on a level playing field. The native community doesnt deserve anything more than anyone else. And as far as them not paying taxes...........Lets not even go there.
My 2 cents, which I am Legally entitled to:mad0100:

Where and when exactly do Metis not pay taxes..

[Walleyes]

So why the fight to extend the rights beyond how the province interprets Powley? If the numbers of Metis are so insignificant, isn't there enough game available under the current provincial interpretation to keep the Metis fed? Why would Metis need to travel hundreds of miles at great expense just to hunt for food? I keep seeing the Metis say one thing but hear another.

There is nothing preventing Metis hunters from obtaining tags through the regular season should they wish to trophy hunt and if the Metis numbers are truly so insignificant, I can't see the need to hunt away from the Metis communities for subsistence as granted in Powley. Something just doesn't add up here.

The skeptic in me says this has very little to do with subsistence hunting.....


Very wise and inquisitive words T.J.. Why indeed ??

But this question runs much farther than just hunting rights.. Why free education ?? when at times I have struggled to pay my children's school fees.. Why a house supplied at minimum costs for metis and firsts nations at times when I have a hard time to put food on my children's plate when at the same time working until I can't walk.. Why did my children and many other white children in our town go to a kindergarten school that is an abandoned 1964 wood shop when a block away the metis children attend a $300,000.00 state of the art facility. Why have I in the past walked by countless grocery carts full of voucher filled grocery carts while my wife was picking through the sale bin just to make the month ??? Why are countless construction contractors in the north turned away from work because they are white while government subsidised metis and first nation contractors granted work based on race and not company history or bid ??

All this just to get a kick in the teeth after years of picking through the rules and trying to find some little hole some place that I could actually find a little lake that I GOD forbid could keep a God damn walleye for the family to eat.. Spent what all we possibly had just to sneak away for a week out of a finger bleeding year of work to get a moose to feed the family and all this in the name of equality ?? Give me a break

All I have seen on here so far is the argument of what happened 200 years ago.. I could give a damn what happened 200 years ago and what the metis did 200 years ago.. Do me a favour and tell me what hey did the last 200 years then we have a conversation..


There is more bigotry and discrimination going on right now in this country than has ever happened to the natives its just that the tables have turned and some are to stupid to see the truth..

[Boss442]

Wow this thread has come a long way. Some may not like this but i feel metis, full status natives and everyone else should be on a level playing field. The native community doesnt deserve anything more than anyone else. And as far as them not paying taxes...........Lets not even go there.
My 2 cents, which I am Legally entitled to:mad0100:

Sorry to burst your bubble, I'am Metis and have paid taxes all my life, started working part time at eleven years old sweeping floors in a auto shop my father managed in Calgary. Employed full time since I was seventeen (also married at 17, just celibrated our 29th anniversary). At one time was working three jobs at the same time, family buisness, Canadian Forces Reserves, and Solictor General of Alberta. I social drink (not a rageing alchoholic or crack head) that many Natives are made out to be!

No I don't need to subsistance hunt and have'nt hunted since the IMHA was suspended, I hunt because its a right and priviledge my ancestors never got to enjoy as they were promised.

[Walleyes]

No I don't need to subsistance hunt and have'nt hunted since the IMHA was suspended, I hunt because its a right and priviledge my ancestors never got to enjoy as they were promised

Promised at a different place and time !!!

[Arn?Narn.]

Sorry to burst your bubble, I'am Metis and have paid taxes all my life, started working part time at eleven years old sweeping floors in a auto shop my father managed in Calgary. Employed full time since I was seventeen (also married at 17, just celibrated our 29th anniversary). At one time was working three jobs at the same time, family buisness, Canadian Forces Reserves, and Solictor General of Alberta. I social drink (not a rageing alchoholic or crack head) that many Natives are made out to be!

No I don't need to subsistance hunt and have'nt hunted since the IMHA was suspended, I hunt because its a right and priviledge my ancestors never got to enjoy as they were promised.

:cheers:

[Arn?Narn.]

nevermind

[ishootbambi]

I see nothing wrong with a Metis shooting a deer in June and I see nothing wrong with a Metis hunter taking several deer in June to feed others in the Metis community. This is a big part of the Metis heritage. What I and I think most non-status hunters do have a problem with is Metis driving from Medicine Hat to Pincher Creek to target trophy bighorn rams. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is not part of the Metis hertitage that I'm aware of nor does it fall under the definition of subsistence.

There's nothing contradictory at all about Metis hunting rights when excercised in the spirit the right was granted.

did you hear about the same guy that i know? not one of the guys in the court case, but a metis of convenience who shot 4 rams in the first year of the imha, and sold 3 of them?

[lead chucker]

An interesting topic. I personally don't see why anyone is allowed to hunt year round. The charter of rights and freedoms say we are all equal and should be treated as such, Allowing minority groups special privileges goes against said charter. It seems like no one on that side is happy with what they are given, you give an inch and they want a mile. In 2010 very few people in Canada need to sustenance hunt, If you can't afford a pack of ground beef down at the safeway then you have bigger problems to deal with besides where and when you can hunt.

And before anyone goes off calling me a racist and what not, I have no issue with Indians, full blooded or half, that work for their living, are not addicted to drugs or alcohol and do not complain about the government all the time. Hard working clean Indians are alright in my books.

x2

[Rafter]

Very wise and inquisitive words T.J.. Why indeed ??

But this question runs much farther than just hunting rights.. Why free education ?? when at times I have struggled to pay my children's school fees.. Why a house supplied at minimum costs for metis and firsts nations at times when I have a hard time to put food on my children's plate when at the same time working until I can't walk.. Why did my children and many other white children in our town go to a kindergarten school that is an abandoned 1964 wood shop when a block away the metis children attend a $300,000.00 state of the art facility. Why have I in the past walked by countless grocery carts full of voucher filled grocery carts while my wife was picking through the sale bin just to make the month ??? Why are countless construction contractors in the north turned away from work because they are white while government subsidised metis and first nation contractors granted work based on race and not company history or bid ??

All this just to get a kick in the teeth after years of picking through the rules and trying to find some little hole some place that I could actually find a little lake that I GOD forbid could keep a God damn walleye for the family to eat.. Spent what all we possibly had just to sneak away for a week out of a finger bleeding year of work to get a moose to feed the family and all this in the name of equality ?? Give me a break

All I have seen on here so far is the argument of what happened 200 years ago.. I could give a damn what happened 200 years ago and what the metis did 200 years ago.. Do me a favour and tell me what hey did the last 200 years then we have a conversation..


There is more bigotry and discrimination going on right now in this country than has ever happened to the natives its just that the tables have turned and some are to stupid to see the truth..

Walleyes

Aboriginals fought in both World Wars and the Korean war so that all Canadians enjoy freedom.

Indians actually had to give up their status when they joined up.

Rafter

[Rafter]

did you hear about the same guy that i know? not one of the guys in the court case, but a metis of convenience who shot 4 rams in the first year of the imha, and sold 3 of them?


No have not heard that one.

Whats their names, where and when did this occur, how much did they get for the heads, who bought the heads, what is the F&W take on this???????????F&W must be aware of this as they would have to plug them

Please fill us all in.

[Walleyes]

Walleyes

Aboriginals fought in both World Wars and the Korean war so that all Canadians enjoy freedom.

Indians actually had to give up their status when they joined up.

Rafter


Yah and your point is what ??? there were no white guys that died in these wars ??? just natives ???

[Arn?Narn.]

Yah and your point is what ??? there were no white guys that died in these wars ??? just natives ???

The white guys were well recognized for their sacrifice and came home to a life very different than the ones that the Indians returned to...

[Walleyes]

The white guys were well recognized for their sacrifice and came home to a life very different than the ones that the Indians returned to...

Many white veterans were not recognised either. The issue lies more in where they returned to rather than who they were. Many natives returned to isolated communities out of touch and or reach of main stream society. As did many white soldier's the big difference is is that the communities recognised their soldiers on their own for many years it was the towns and the communities that held a high status of their veterans if the native communities failed to recognise their veterans well I guess that is an issue they should deal with how is that a government issue ??? Our communities made clubs and groups on their own ( Legion Halls ) what did the natives create for their veterans ?? How and why is it always up to someone else to help them. I come from a community with a very high native population and in the local Legion there were many metis veterans any of them that wanted to be part of it were,, those that chose to live out their lives in seclusion did so as did many white veterans and dealt with their issues on their own. Many, many a veteran in this country dealt with their demons not just the natives it just seems worse for the natives because once again its a crutch that they use to extort more attention. This poor poor us routine is getting old already.. When are these communities going to take responsibility for themselves and quit blaming everyone else...

[Arn?Narn.]

we have come a bit off topic,..but still on track,..

I'm not referring to the communities they returned to,..i am referring to what they received upon return..

How about you research what was promised and was actually received.

About 1 in 3 of every able bodied Indian enlisted in the First world War...

do you know what year they were recognized for their contribution in Ottawa?

Here is a little quote about the centotaph,...yup that's right...1992 they were allowed to show respect to their fallen comrades like evryone else.

"As a result, the native contribution to the Western world's freedom went largely unreported and unnoticed. It is only recently that native veterans have begun to be heard. In fact it was not until November 11, 1992, that native veterans were permitted to place a wreath at the cenotaph during memorial services. Traditionally they had to wait until the conclusion of the official service before showing respect for their fellow comrades "

I'm not all about handouts and I believe in personal responsibility for ones own direction...but this is not a simple little thing. It is a long complex history that resulted largely in what we have today.

I remember having a chat with a Chief once...

He was very nice and very understanding of all things...

He mentioned the "drunken lazy Indian"

and then he said, "how many drunken lazy Indians were there before European settlement"

We did our best to remove every quality that allowed First Nations to have pride in themselves and their culture. Now we are complaining that we were quite successful but don't like the results or the fact that a "quick fix' won't fix it.

The situation today is not a good one for many and the solution must be a joint solution.

That's all on this topic...

and by the way, I come from a long line and history of War Vets, with many family who paid the ultimate sacrifice. I also know a few First Nation war vets... If you do some research you can start to understand how we got we are today,..and possibly, by understanding, come up with realistic solutions.

[honda450]

Ira Hayes. By the man in black.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKDLQWEvubc&feature=related

[Rafter]

Yah and your point is what ??? there were no white guys that died in these wars ??? just natives ???

Walleyes,

Your question was "do me a favour and tell me what they did the last 200 years then we have a conversation"

I just simply answered your question and done you a favour. If you would have asked about white guys I would have answered in regards to that. You didn't so I just answered your question as you requested.

You are welcome for the favour.

Thanks,
Rafter

[S.A.S]

Walleyes

Aboriginals fought in both World Wars and the Korean war so that all Canadians enjoy freedom.

Indians actually had to give up their status when they joined up.

Rafter

None of these wars threatened Canadian sovereignty. We were forced to go to WW1 and volunteered to go to WW2 to help the British. Korea also had nothing to do with Canadian freedom we went to help others out.

Also, Why should the Indians get special recognition for going to war? When the PM thanks the soldiers would that not include all soldiers whether they are Black, White or Brown?

The Indians gave up their status, eh? So does that mean they would just be recognized as your everyday Joe Canadian........Terrible eh..

[IR_mike]

None of these wars threatened Canadian sovereignty. We were forced to go to WW1 and volunteered to go to WW2 to help the British. Korea also had nothing to do with Canadian freedom we went to help others out.

Also, Why should the Indians get special recognition for going to war? When the PM thanks the soldiers would that not include all soldiers whether they are Black, White or Brown?

The Indians gave up their status, eh? So does that mean they would just be recognized as your everyday Joe Canadian........Terrible eh..

Dude that whole WW2 thing....... get over it.

Sure am glad your ideoligy lost.

Off to celebrate canada day and to enjoy the freedoms that members of our armed forces in the 3 above mentioned conflicts fought for on behalf of us in Canada and other nations who needed a hand when they were in a bad spot.

[Walleyes]

None of these wars threatened Canadian sovereignty. We were forced to go to WW1 and volunteered to go to WW2 to help the British. Korea also had nothing to do with Canadian freedom we went to help others out.

Also, Why should the Indians get special recognition for going to war? When the PM thanks the soldiers would that not include all soldiers whether they are Black, White or Brown?

The Indians gave up their status, eh? So does that mean they would just be recognized as your everyday Joe Canadian........Terrible eh..

Exactly !!!

How come my uncles have never received special notice for their contribution as Polish Canadians, they just took it for granted that when vets were honored they were part of it,, they didn't have to be singled out..