Cougars on Draw?

[cougarhunter]

I have been hearing about alot of changes coming to hunting in Alberta. The most recent one was this weekend I heard they might be trying to put cougars on a draw. Whats wrong with the way it is now? Hopefully if they do end up on a draw the FW will at least open up a chase season so we can at least work the dogs. No one can tell me they think too many cougars are being shot during the actual season especially since landowners can now shoot one on sight. I was just wondering if anybody knows anything for sure? Makes me mad.... getting a new pup in four weeks too.:sign0176

[sheepguide]

I cant really see the going on draw but the way things work in Alberta it wouldnt suprise me.
They should be opening up alot larger quotas rather than thinking about a draw.
SG

[walking buffalo]

Here is the porposal from SRD for changes to cougar hunting for 2011.

Just a proposal, but likely to be adopted.

PROPOSED REGULATION CHANGE FOR 2011

COUGAR MANAGEMENT – F & W EDMONTON

1. CURRENT STRATEGY
In Alberta, cougars are managed following the guidelines outlined in the Management Plan for Cougars in Alberta, adopted in 1992. The majority of cougar range in the province is divided into Cougar Management Areas (CMAs), which range in size from 1 to 12 Wildlife Management Units (WMUs). Cougar hunting occurs during a 3-month season from December – February. Hunters must register cougars at a Fish and Wildlife office within one business day following the kill. For resident hunters, the hunting season in each CMA closes when a pre-determined number of male and/or female cougars have been harvested. The season for one sex closes independent of the number of cougars that have been harvested of the opposite sex. Quotas are based on historic population estimates and trends in cougar numbers.

2. CONCERN
Current CMA boundaries were developed when cougars were at much lower densities, and in some cases are too large to effectively set hunting quotas and ensure an even distribution of the harvest. Some WMUs with the current CMAs may be overharvested, while others are underharvested. In addition, cougars are now present in some areas where hunting with hounds is difficult due to an abundance of private land. Current regulations and season dates may not allow harvest objectives to be reached in some of these areas.

3. INFORMATION TO SUPPORT CHANGE
Since the Cougar Management Plan was finalized in 1992, cougar distribution in Alberta has expanded to the north and east, cougar density in west-central Alberta is approximately 4 times higher than estimated in the management plan, phone calls and complaints by the public about cougars have increased 10-fold, and resident hunting license sales have tripled. Cougars now well established in some WMUs where no cougar hunting season exists. Several jurisdictions in the United States have successfully used fall, non-hound seasons to help meet cougar harvest objectives.

4. RECOMMENDED CHANGE
Updating cougar harvest strategies to reflect recent changes in cougar distribution and abundance could be achieved with a combination of 2 changes:
1. Re-align CMA boundaries to reflect population increases in northern and north-eastern Alberta. This would result in a shift towards a larger number of CMAs that are smaller in size. Some new WMUs would be added to the CMA system, providing additional hunting opportunities.
2. Create a fall, non-hound season for cougars in some areas of the province. This season would coincide with the fall ungulate hunting seasons and would require a separate, ‘fall’ cougar license. Hunters that harvest a cougar under the authority of this license could still hunt a second cougar under the authority of the current ‘winter’ license.


Sounds like someone got you barking up a tree....:)

[cougarhunter]

I agree with you SG. I'd better get my but out there this winter tho and kill this 3" pad thumper that I've been trying to get for almost three years now. I'm personally getting a little sick of all these restrictions I keep hearing about coming to us Alberta Outdoorsmen(sheep on draw, cats on draw, restricting even more access, no more black bear baiting)....hopefully mostly just rumors but starting to make me want to become a BC Outdoorsmen hahaha although i love Alberta and have lived here my whole 27 years of life. Hahaha my pups going to be awesome tho no matter what

[cougarhunter]

Thanks walking buffalo for that info. Hahaha but what I heard about them going on draw I think came from the mouth of the president of the houndsmen association of Alberta. Hope he's wrong. Hahaha gonna be alot of females shot if there is a no-hound hunting season. NOT GOOD

[walking buffalo]

Thanks walking buffalo for that info. Hahaha but what I heard about them going on draw I think came from the mouth of the president of the houndsmen association of Alberta. Hope he's wrong. Hahaha gonna be alot of females shot if there is a no-hound hunting season. NOT GOOD

Absolutley no probem with the no-hound fall season. These would be in specific zones where population control and/or reduction is desired (taking of females being neccessary to reduce an increase in population) and in zones where hound hunters just can't access in the winter.

There are plenty of cats for separate hound and no-hound seasons.

I won't bother with other reasons why your NOT GOOD comment lacks merit.

Good luck with your new pup, hope he/she loves to chase cats. :)

[timba]

Does any one know what cougar hunt goes for $ for a alberta res.I would like to go one year.

timba

[gunslinger]

Does any one know what cougar hunt goes for $ for a alberta res.I would like to go one year.

timba


They are getting up around that 5000$ mark now for residents. If your thinking of going you better tye up a outfitter soon cause they go fast. Theres getting to be alot of cougars around and the quota gets filled fast.

[cougarhunter]

No I know what you mean walking buffalo. There should always be SOME females shot for sure especially where there is need for serious population control but killing lots of females could potentially wipe out the population in an area... say where they are making a come back. Just my opinion.

[PLOTT]

There is talk of a cougar draw but hopefully that is just talk.That would pretty well finish off the houndsman that likes to run a few cats and harvest even less.Every one seems to think there is lots of cougars but fish and wildlife.The quotas stay low but at least they are looking at some changes.

[walking buffalo]

There is talk of a cougar draw but hopefully that is just talk.That would pretty well finish off the houndsman that likes to run a few cats and harvest even less.Every one seems to think there is lots of cougars but fish and wildlife.The quotas stay low but at least they are looking at some changes.

Who is talking Cougar draw?

cougarhunter says the houndsmen association of Alberta.

Who are you hearing these rumours from?

F&W is stating that there is a need to harvest MORE cats.

Need an Icon for Pot Stirring....

[sheephunter]

Who is talking Cougar draw?

cougarhunter says the houndsmen association of Alberta.

Who are you hearing these rumours from?

F&W is stating that there is a need to harvest MORE cats.

Need an Icon for Pot Stirring....

This idea has been brought up at some of the regional meetings by the local biologists.

[walking buffalo]

This idea has been brought up at some of the regional meetings by the local biologists.

Not surprising. Everybody has an opinion, and especially when the animals involved are part of your business.

Like with localized wolf studies, some Bio's don't want their study populations hunted.

[sheepguide]

.

[wolfkilr]

Nate Webb who we will all remember from the highly sucessful wolf study, is now our Province Specialist in charge of managing predators held a meeting in Rocky outling the changes discussed in this thread. Apparently there was lots of discussion so we will have to stay tuned to see if the powers that be are actually listening.

[Stinky Coyote]

sounds like good news based on the proposal of no-hound fall season....gives an opportunity for the predator callers who've really sprouted up in the past decade a chance at cats without having to try and sex a called in cat thats hunting you face to face at close range....this would be getting with the times somewhat and better than nothing option imo....

[cougarhunter]

I was just wondering if anyone had heard about them maybe opening a chase/no kill season? Hahaha I'd still pack a gun to protect my dogs but it would sure be nice to be able to work the dogs (if cougars DO go to draw but hopefully not)

[sheepguide]

sounds like good news based on the proposal of no-hound fall season....gives an opportunity for the predator callers

The only thing is there is always a few bad apples and im sure there will be some cats taken with hounds in this season.

Oh and there is nothing stoping the predator callers now from hunting cats. Just with out the identification of treeing the cat im sure alot of females will be shot and I cant see them being happy with that as thats what they are trying to protect now with the quotas.

But im all for opening up and taking as many cats as possible but these are just a few things that may hold that back.
SG

[cougarhunter]

Thats right SG. Unless you've seen the track or its a thumper it would be pretty tough for someone calling I think to identify the sex of a cougar. In the winter season right now you'd better be sure what you're shooting. I'm wondering in this no hound season if the are planning quotas for each sex? They should if hound hunters have to abide by it. NO FEMALE IS A BIG COUGAR ANYWAY

[Stinky Coyote]

Oh and there is nothing stoping the predator callers now from hunting cats.

SG

we callers know that, just have to phone in each morning like the houndsmen do and make sure both sexes are still open.....definitely a houndsmen oriented set up and thats fine as thats all there was 'back in the day', as i said, and others said, lots of things have changed since the cougar thing set up.....i think with the explosion of growth in predator calling sports (2nd only to bowhunting growth) that it would hopefully be a consideration of some sort if any changes are being made....sex identification is a bit of a problem for anything other than hound hunting

[sheepguide]

we callers know that, just have to phone in each morning like the houndsmen do and make sure both sexes are still open.....definitely a houndsmen oriented set up and thats fine as thats all there was 'back in the day', as i said, and others said, lots of things have changed since the cougar thing set up.....i think with the explosion of growth in predator calling sports (2nd only to bowhunting growth) that it would hopefully be a consideration of some sort if any changes are being made....sex identification is a bit of a problem for anything other than hound hunting

I agree and really dont see the numbers killed in this season really being super high so its probably not a huge concern on sex ID i guess.
SG

[Banya]

I was at the alberta tree hound association trials and nathan webb was there and told everyone what possible changes they are may make in the future. the quota, a maximum cat quota in the cma's for example insted of having say 5 femails and five males it would be just 10 cats, they will then moniter the age of the cats being taken by aging there teeth.if the trophy age gets low they will start lowerin the quotas. the new change they are thinking abought is opening up more cma's up north by dividing the curant cma's in to smaller ones there for increacing the quotas in some areas.

these were the major changes they are thinking abought. I never heard anything abought cougars going on draw.

I personaly think the quota system we have now is a far better system for controling the population its proven. the old system was a female quota there was no male quota when the femail quota was full then the cma closed what happend was evory one only killed toms and it totaly distroyed our cougar population
Our currant cougar population is healthy and we should try to keep it this way for all hunters to enjoy. yes I know they kill deer elk and sheep but the wolfs are a much bigger probblem look what they have done to our west country theres nothing left out there. both B.C and montana have way higher cougar populations than we do and there outher big game animals seem to be doing quite fine

cougars are great trophy animal for all hunters to share
thanks

Ken

[ishootbambi]

im still hoping against hope that they will open cougars to non hound hunting surrounding the cypress hills. the researcher there has identified the area as having the highest cat density in north america and they are spreading out around the park in every direction.

[Matt L.]

It's not just killing deer and sheep Banya. Since they've been moving further east, they have been coming more and more into contact with residential areas. Which is not good for people and cougars. We're really seeing this here in Whitecourt. These are the populations they really want to reduce, but it's really hard to run hounds through a bunch of acreages, which is where the no-hound season comes in.

[PLOTT]

Actually it sometimes easier to run a cat in small acreages with hounds than haveing hunters shooting with hunting calibres.Most acreage owners are happy to see you with hounds when there is a big cat in there back yard.In the areas that F&W want to cut down numbers both hounds or a boot season should work.

[Matt L.]

True, but you'll always get the one guy who doesn't want the dogs going through his property and that's exactly where the cougar will go. Murphy's Law lol.

[spot and stock]

I know the big problem here in 312 is the acreages. You can't chase a cat 1/2 mile without switching land owners, and there are a lot of cats here. Every couple of years I see one, mind you not always during the season. I for one would love to have a tag in my pocket for the fall season. A guy might just get it filled one of these years, and without dogs that would be awesome. I dont think there would be enough cats killed during this season to really worry about the sex of animals taken.

[Matt L.]

You're right and in the acreage area's, they really don't give a rat's hind end what sex you shoot. Least-ways that's the impression I got from the local bio's. The cat's can be a big pain in the ass for the local F&w officers. PR-wise especially.

[walking buffalo]

You're right and in the acreage area's, they really don't give a rat's hind end what sex you shoot. Least-ways that's the impression I got from the local bio's. The cat's can be a big pain in the ass for the local F&w officers. PR-wise especially.

F&W is also having to spend a large amount of their resources dealing with these cats. Money and manpower they don't have to spare.

[Matt L.]

They actually had to keep the kids inside the school during recess at one of the schools in Wct as a cougar had been seen near it. There is also a rumour here that just will not die that F&W have imported cougars here to deal with the deer population.:mad0030: The MLA, the Mayor, and F&W have all refuted it numerous times, but it keeps resurfacing.

[houndsmen]

[QUOTE=walking buffalo;623019]Absolutley no probem with the no-hound fall season. These would be in specific zones where population control and/or reduction is desired (taking of females being neccessary to reduce an increase in population) and in zones where hound hunters just can't access in the winter.

Absolutley no problem with a no-hound season eh?.........Except when a female stashes her month old kittens somewhere to come in and investigate your predator call and gets shot, leaving her kittens there to starve to death so someone can give themselves a pat on the back for there new "trophy."

Another thing for the acerage owners and other brainiacs to consider with this lovely new proposal is; When sub-adult kittens still traveling with there mothers become suddenly orphaned pre maturely, they will take what little hunting tools and lessons they have aquired and put them to work on the easiest game they can find. Guess what that will be, all the calves, colts, and fluffy the poodle!!!

I wonder how many guys that get on here ranting and raving about ethics and carrying on about not shooting sows with cubs etc. will be lined up to get one of these fall tags if it goes through???

In my opinion those acerage people need to decide, either live with the cats, or deal with the hounds. Its that simple. It always amazes me how people want to move out into the wilderness and have there own little piece of nature. But as soon as someone "thinks" they see some kind of predator its immediatly wearing a death sentence hero cookie around its neck, and everyone is out to get it.

Happy Hunting

[walking buffalo]

It is quite interesting how individual hound hunters feel threatened by a possible No Hound cougar season.

[sheepguide]

It is quite interesting how individual hound hunters feel threatened by a possible No Hound cougar season.

I really dont think they feel threatened but most of them understand cats better than anyone and realize why there hasnt been a non hound season.
Way to many guys out there just looking to hunt more stuff and add more tags without looking at the big picture.

And I agree 100% with what houndsman said. People move into the areas that are prestine and beautiful but then when the wild life that is there happens to kill there Llama or dog( doing what is natural to them by feeding themselves and their young on what lives in thier home area) they figure every cat should be gone. But until that dog or pet is killed most of these people are totaly against any hunting of these animals.
SG

[Banya]

I really dont think they feel threatened but most of them understand cats better than anyone and realize why there hasnt been a non hound season.
Way to many guys out there just looking to hunt more stuff and add more tags without looking at the big picture.

And I agree 100% with what houndsman said. People move into the areas that are prestine and beautiful but then when the wild life that is there happens to kill there Llama or dog( doing what is natural to them by feeding themselves and their young on what lives in thier home area) they figure every cat should be gone. But until that dog or pet is killed most of these people are totaly against any hunting of these animals.
SG

100% agree

[Stinky Coyote]

It is quite interesting how individual hound hunters feel threatened by a possible No Hound cougar season.

No doubt, what a rant, hunts cats but soft spot for age of them? what about all the mommy gophers that got shot with little pink ones down in the hole? How do you feel about that houndsmen?

Good lord...how many you think will actually get shot without hounds? And of those how many stashing kittens to come to a caller???? i'm betting way more taken by bowhunters sitting in the trees than all the other non-hound hunters combined....no stashing kittens there....you okay with this yet houndsmen????? Make it sound like the non-hound hunters will out hunt the hound hunters or something....don't worry, there will be lots left for the hound guys.

:sign0176:

[houndsmen]

It is quite interesting how individual hound hunters feel threatened by a possible No Hound cougar season.

Im not sure how you find anything in there about me or any other houndsmen feeling threatened. It takes more then a proposed reg. change or a bull**** statement from someone that obviously likes to just babble to make me feel threatened. I'll be following hounds all winter wether or not guys are out blowing rabbit calls behind acerage lots.

What it does make me feel however is angry, it really bothers me when people that know nothing about what there talking about rally to make changes to something that has worked so well. Its not in the best interest of the cats, its not in the best interest of the hunters, and its not in the best interest of the general public. But does that stop a bunch of idiots that want one more tag in there pocket from standing up claiming this is a good idea? NOPE!

So when theres kittens starving to death, more lamas and poodles getting ate, and more attacks on children, I hope guys like you and the government are still happy. The government will have more money in there pockets by selling these tags, plus they'll be able to tell the public thier doing something about it, and guys like you will be patten yourself on the back staring at your #80 female cougar trophy!

[sheepguide]

what about all the mommy gophers that got shot with little pink ones down in the hole? How do you feel about that houndsmen?


This statment shows the mentality of some people out there. Comparing gophers to cougars:sign0176:. Makes people really wanna listen to the rest of your comments.

Sure maybe few female cougars are shot in a non hound season. But what happens if the callers go out and have great success then what do you say. With no quota on female cats the population "MAY" suffer as the young females trying to support their kittens are likely the first ones to come in.

No one is saying this season shouldnt happen but there has to be some limitation in regards o harvest numbers. No reason that these hunters cant run off a quota. Houndsman are responsible enough to keep track of the quotas so why couldnt the other guys?
SG

[houndsmen]

[QUOTE=Stinky Coyote;624463]No doubt, what a rant, hunts cats but soft spot for age of them? what about all the mommy gophers that got shot with little pink ones down in the hole? How do you feel about that houndsmen?

This reminds me of that ol saying "You are better off to be suspected an idiot but remain silent, than open your mouth and remove all doubt" Glad you chose the latter. Now we know where we stand.....

As to numbers being harvested on this season, I would say its very few....next to none. I know that, and the government knows that.....but thank god for them, idiots like you don't. Cause that makes money! And your probably right bow hunters etc. will be killing some, but to say those cats wont have any sub-adults or kittens following there lead tells us again how much of an idiot you are. Pardon my terminology pertaining to you.....but im not a real kind patient guy when it comes to matters like this, or idiots period.

I would comment further on your post but that would be similar to trying to get a dead dog to fetch a stick....you run along and blow your coyote call now, were gonna have a big boy talk.


Sheepguide you bring up some great points, its nice to see someone without a yard full of hounds has a damn good idea of whats going out there with our lions. Thanks for your input.

[cougarhunter]

Thanks alot to houndsmen, SG and Banya(sorry I missed your call ealier buddy) for all sticking up for what we all know is right. I started this thread(My first ever) just to see what everybody had heard on these changes. Its like shooting the odd doe instead of bucks every single year... some female cougars should be taken ONCE IN AWHILE but the thoght of people possibly taking a cat at first sight is just unimaginable. Quite a few times i've had people out with me who would be happy with any cougar but when you tree one with a belly full of milk we are all always just happy to sit and have a good look at her... not pound her just because she thought a rabbit was in distress. Houndsmen do know more about these creatures than most because we spend countless winter days persuing them and looking at them as up close and personal as possible. Mothers with kittens in my opinion would probably be the easiest to call in because they are looking for the easiest food sources.... so if this goes through be careful of what you're shooting at please they aren't GOPHERS....IDIOT

[ishootbambi]

It is quite interesting how individual hound hunters feel threatened by a possible No Hound cougar season.

seems pretty simple.....we have already been advised that the going rate is around 5000 beans. why would someone making a profit want to see anyone get that item for free?

like it or not the gopher comment is relevant. so is shooting ewes, does or cows. of course hunters try to take a dry female when possible, but we all know orphans are a part of hunting season. besides....the reason behind most hunting seasons is to keep populations at desired levels. i expect the quota system would be kept with this potential new situation.

now houndsmen and cougarhunter....big boy conversations generally dont involve calling others idiots or stupid, so whaddya say we really do keep it on a grown-up level.

dale

[Stinky Coyote]

thanks bambi for not being afraid to jump into this one lol...looks like its going to be more exciting than i originally anticipated:fighting0074:

it sure didn't take much to fire these boys up.....when i give an example i try to go to the most extreme end of the spectrum.....just like houndsmen did with his kittens comments....tit for tat....big boy

and get off the high horse about 80 lb cat not being a trophy....for those hunters out there that can't afford a 5000 dollar hunt and may only ever see one cat in their lifetime how the flip would they know? i'm pretty sure that anything without spots would a trophy to basically most out there lucky enough to get one...except the houndsmen and those who can pay the houndsmen........so what do you want then in zones clearly with too many cats...just increase quota? and just leave it soley to houndsmen? this is starting to sound like the crossbow inclusion thingy

and sheepguide...dude....look at that post count for when you started, talk about a guy who talks too much, i've been trying to ween myself from the addiction but your obviously full fledged and have a boatload to say....trust me when i say this....your starting to get annoying, been biting my tongue on quite a few snarky little remarks you just have to throw in here and there etc. but can't really ignore it now can i lol....take a break from the computer and get back to your life a bit, this shizzo is eating you up a bit

[sheepguide]

and sheepguide...dude....look at that post count for when you started, talk about a guy who talks too much, i've been trying to ween myself from the addiction but your obviously full fledged and have a boatload to say....trust me when i say this....your starting to get annoying, been biting my tongue on quite a few snarky little remarks you just have to throw in here and there etc. but can't really ignore it now can i lol....take a break from the computer and get back to your life a bit, this shizzo is eating you up a bit

I love this part. When im getting under the skin of guys like you. That just fuels the fire more. I have nothing but time here at work to rattle you guys.
And hey dont bite your tongue unless your scared you cant back what you mouth will spew. And like people on here say if you dont like what I say dont read the part that says sheepguide above it. And guess what... IM NOT GOING ANY WHERE ANYTIME SOOM:sHa_shakeshout:

So just so we know where your coming from there Stinky, how many times have you been cougar hunting?
Another question since you seem to know more on cats than most. Why hasnt calling Cougar become popular across north america when calling predators is one of the fastest growing parts of hunting?
SG

[Stinky Coyote]

I started this thread(My first ever)

lucky you, interesting things happen when you get to hear what a bunch of other hunters have to say that aren't inside a guys circle eh

the world gets bigger all of a sudden and shame on managment for coming up with ideas to help control numbers of anything let along cougars as no one wants to offend the outfitters....and shame on guys who can't afford hounds (and the time) of their own to become houndsmen/outfitters....or the 5k to buy a hunt for wanting a tag in their pocket because managment says it could help in high density areas etc....just in case they get a chance at a cat in their lifetime....shame on those guys!!!! and double shame on them if they couldn't tell if it had balls or not

so...did the world get bigger yet or not? or is it still just 'cougars are my life' and doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks including the managers should they open a no-hound season?

[sheepguide]

lucky you, interesting things happen when you get to hear what a bunch of other hunters have to say that aren't inside a guys circle eh

the world gets bigger all of a sudden and shame on managment for coming up with ideas to help control numbers of anything let along cougars as no one wants to offend the outfitters....and shame on guys who can't afford hounds (and the time) of their own to become houndsmen/outfitters....or the 5k to buy a hunt for wanting a tag in their pocket because managment says it could help in high density areas etc....just in case they get a chance at a cat in their lifetime....shame on those guys!!!! and double shame on them if they couldn't tell if it had balls or not

so...did the world get bigger yet or not? or is it still just 'cougars are my life' and doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks including the managers should they open a no-hound season?

You seem to be really on a rant as I do beleive that some of us actually said the new season would work but they would have to regulate it in some way shape or form!

And for your info I got into hunting cats by helping vouleteering to help some houndsman out. I am not an outfitter I dont guide for cats, dont have hounds and dont have the cash to spend on a hunt. To get my cat I put many miles and hours on my own machines just me and a friend and then talked a person I know into bringing his dogs on a day that he didnt have any resident hunters out to run the cat we found. I boxed that cat in probably 8 times in 4 days before the guy had time to run my cat. I have plans to run cats this year also taking pics and video with some new guys that ive never hunted with just on the grounds that ill scout for tracks, drag along behind some dogs and help a bit where needed.
I have a passion for the outdoors and I find a way to do the things I love.
SG

[cougarhunter]

Just thought I'd let you know STINKY.... It is illegal for anyone to charge a resident to take them cougar hunting unless they are a registered outfitter. The only money I have ever made cougar hunting is through a guides licence through an outfitter. This was told to me by several FW officers thoughout the years.... It is a beef I have... lots of guys are doing it without an outfitters license and nothing is getting said about it. Myself, I have taken a few friends out and got them cats because they are that MY FRIENDS. People don't have to pay 5K to get a cougar... Just be wiiling to run lots of miles, look for tracks on your own fuel, buy your own leash, and support your local cat hunters... In short...Get A friend STINKY before you kill a Mom with kittens

[ishootbambi]

ok ch....lets be friends. id love to have a cat on the wall, but just cant justify 5k. im not kidding. id pay the fuel and whatever expenses as a good friend should in this situation.

[walking buffalo]

I'll be out trying to call one in next fall. I could have shot a cougar in each of the last 4 elk seasons. Maybe I will get both a bull and a cat at the same time. :sHa_shakeshout:

Looking forward to the No Hound season. :)

[sheepguide]

ok ch....lets be friends. id love to have a cat on the wall, but just cant justify 5k. im not kidding. id pay the fuel and whatever expenses as a good friend should in this situation.

Thinking that a little more effort may be required. My cat took me 2 winters of "helping" out before I could talk one of the guys to run a cat for me. Was kinda like waiting for the aligning of the stars. If the real passion is there though it is possible to get a cat.

[houndsmen]

now houndsmen and cougarhunter....big boy conversations generally dont involve calling others idiots or stupid, so whaddya say we really do keep it on a grown-up level.

dale[/QUOTE]


They do when im involved in them and Im talking to guys like this. Anyways, I tried to bring up some valid points as to why this season is a waste of time and money, hopefully some see it that way. I would love to sit on here all day and try and pound some sense into you guys thick skulls but unfortunatly I just dont have the time, and even if I did it would be like beating a dead horse.

Hopefully there is some guys like SG still around with sense enough to look at something rationally and make a factual based opinion on the matter.

So have fun with this boys, and keep in mind....we can sit here all day for a month and argue about this but guess what.......it aint gonna make one bit of difference. The know it alls have come up with another great "solution" to a so called wildlife problem, and now everyone gets to live with it.


I wonder if Wyoming needs anymore wolves??? Will talk about that next week! Im going to blow my rabbit call if anyone needs me....WRAHHHHHHH WWWRRAAHHHHH:rolleye2:

[ishootbambi]

you involved in guiding or outfitting hound, or just a guy who likes to chase cats?

[sheepguide]

I'll be out trying to call one in next fall. I could have shot a cougar in each of the last 4 elk seasons. Maybe I will get both a bull and a cat at the same time. :sHa_shakeshout:

Looking forward to the No Hound season. :)

We will be waiting to see pics of your cougar abilities WB.
Just remember that a cat isnt going to come to a call like a yote or wolf. Put your back to a tree and keep looking up. Ever watched a house cat sneaking in the grass or trees after a mouse or bird? Well you just became the mouse or bird. That old cat hunts a alot different than them dogs averyone is calling. Ill take my chances with dogs but them cats are a little to stealthy and successful hunters for me to purposly ringing the dinner bell with.
I honestly wish you guys luck.

SG

[Stinky Coyote]

I love this part. When im getting under the skin of guys like you. That just fuels the fire more. I have nothing but time here at work to rattle you guys.
And hey dont bite your tongue unless your scared you cant back what you mouth will spew. And like people on here say if you dont like what I say dont read the part that says sheepguide above it. And guess what... IM NOT GOING ANY WHERE ANYTIME SOOM:sHa_shakeshout:

So just so we know where your coming from there Stinky, how many times have you been cougar hunting?
Another question since you seem to know more on cats than most. Why hasnt calling Cougar become popular across north america when calling predators is one of the fastest growing parts of hunting?
SG

lol, 1st, you could never get under my skin but glad it makes you happy to think you could...that cracked me up, and don't worry....EVERYONE knows your not going anywhere anytime soon....sigh

Both me and a buddy have cougars from calling, his a 90 lb 7 yr old female and mine a 125 lb young tom...apparently neither would be trophies but tell that to me and my buddy who got them without hounds and lots of sweat...where's that finger emoticon when you need it. Called in wolves, black bear and lynx too...they all come to the call. A several years ago it was my main passion but now have the sheep and big game fever so don't talk about the predator stuff much or even call too often these days, still kill coyotes a few times a winter but not hardcore like we used to...just a fun sunday morning kind of thing now. And both me and buddy are done buying cougar tags anyhow so we don't call the hotlines in the morning anymore etc. and if they come in they get a pass because we got our once in lifetime trophies. If i decide i need a p&y cat someday then i'll be looking up houndsmen...have nothing against cat hunting with hounds at all....just got excited when i heard in this thread there was potential for some cat hunting during regular seasons where thick enough to support it....to me that is all good news....to the houndsmen it apparently is not!

And last mr. know it all....spend a little time on any predator forums and you'll see that the cougar is coming to the call everywhere just like every other toothy predator is. I know several other people in person that have called them in here......i've read of even more incidents on just this forum from calling....and the local t.v. show even called one or two in on film here.

Its not a big deal, just another predator....i have zero beef with the current system or you'd hear me bitch because its just not set up very well to take into account calling...i do comment on it when threads come up because i think it would be nice if something was more accomodating to todays world (ie; callers etc.) rather than just a hounds only system.

Its clear there are protectionist attitudes coming out about this and rightfully so...its a passion and livelyhood also......just like the hardcore bowhunters not wanting to give an inch to the crossbow.

So....where does that leave us now?:scared0018:

[sheephunter]

We will be waiting to see pics of your cougar abilities WB.
Just remember that a cat isnt going to come to a call like a yote or wolf. Put your back to a tree and keep looking up. Ever watched a house cat sneaking in the grass or trees after a mouse or bird? Well you just became the mouse or bird. That old cat hunts a alot different than them dogs averyone is calling. Ill take my chances with dogs but them cats are a little to stealthy and successful hunters for me to purposly ringing the dinner bell with.
I honestly wish you guys luck.

SG

There's a lot of guys out there, especially in the southwestern states that are dedicated cougar callers and I've never heard of an incident of a hunter being mauled while calling. Perhaps it's happened but in ain't common. I've been around when a couple came in to an electronic call (not in Alberta) and they marched right in, nothing stealthy about it and I know Rich has some coyote calling footage where a big old cat comes in like a freight train. Calling cougars is pretty popular in some areas of North America. As always, it's a big world out there.

[ishootbambi]

i know of local guys here in the hat that have had cats coming to the call. like i said earlier, man would it be cool if they opened a season around the cypress hills.

[walking buffalo]

We will be waiting to see pics of your cougar abilities WB.
Just remember that a cat isnt going to come to a call like a yote or wolf. Put your back to a tree and keep looking up. Ever watched a house cat sneaking in the grass or trees after a mouse or bird? Well you just became the mouse or bird. That old cat hunts a alot different than them dogs averyone is calling. Ill take my chances with dogs but them cats are a little to stealthy and successful hunters for me to purposly ringing the dinner bell with.
I honestly wish you guys luck.

SG

Very true.

I could spend a while with stories of cougars that were right in front of me, but I never saw them. They seem to have an invisibile cloak when desired. And their speed....:scared0015:

If there is a season in one of my elk zones, I'll likely stick to shooting when I see 'em.

I will be following the hounds this winter. Thanks to my new best friend!

[sheepguide]

i do comment on it when threads come up because i think it would be nice if something was more accomodating to todays world (ie; callers etc.)

Just wondering how would making a no hound season a month or two earlier be more accomodating to callers? Like most things I think because they wouldnt have to share it with the houndsman.

And second I realize people do get cats by calling. The issue is with the identification of the cats. If its just another predator and not a big deal as you say then it will be an issue on identification of sex. How many guys out there can tell a male or female cat apart head on or even broad side? Oh im sure you and your buddies can but the average outdoorsman wouldnt have a clue. many top notch cougar outfitters wouldnt be able to unless it was a big huge old tom.
The issue isnt in if calling will work its on proper identification and limiting the number of female cats taken. How would it be right if the guys in the non hound season could just shoot anything and the houndsman are on quota. Calling kill numbers could get high because you know its just another predator and calling them is no big deal!
SG

[Stinky Coyote]

And second I realize people do get cats by calling. The issue is with the identification of the cats.
SG

i guess when i say callers i mean all the non-houndsmen, i just happened to used call alot and found it inconvenient when a season was closed for one sex when thats where we wanted to call etc. we got ours by trying for wolves real bad, had wolves in but never got shot opportunities...cats are much more relaxed and less skittish....but sexing them is an issue in my mind for anyone not doing the hound thing....which means all the rest of us and so i thought it great idea with tags in general seasons, dedicated callers could take advantage and make a cougar a reality much easier as they'd have more time to do it and if sex no issue in one of the seasons then even better as non-hound hunters period will have trouble sexing them when it might be the first one they ever saw....not that i'd like to see kittens die but if numbers need to go down and other opportunities need to arise if a few do for the greater good then i guess thats just like everything else...never said its always free lunch and desert too

[sheepguide]

I agree that it is an opertunity for guys to get a cat. Maybe they wont kill any females and maybe they would kill alot. They would have to regulate the first few years anyways to see what number would be killed. I just feel if there is a big issue with what sex are being killed by houndsman then that issue will obviously be there in other seasons.

Like I said im not against it just dont feel it should just be open to shoot as many of any sex.

SG

[Matt L.]

Depends which CMA's sheep, They do want to reduce the population somewhat in the eastern one's as the cats are starting to get into the heavily populated areas. In the core CMA's closer to where you are and by the Pass, it'll likely be much more heavily regulated. I'm probably goin' to be talking to teh local F&W tomorrow night. I'll see if he can send me that map of what they want to do so I can post unless someone here already has it and can post it.

[sheepguide]

And thats what im saying Mat. They regulate quotas by the number of each sex they wish to harvest in a particular CMA. This would have to be the same in a non hound type season. Each area has to be managed to meet the harvest goals of that area. You cant have one season as a shoot anything general area and another season as a quota until you see what kind of harvest statistics you have.

And I missed a couple posts about the calling. TJ and whomever else. Again I said that I realize that cats are killed by calling and it is a very small number in many areas. If it was that easy that all these people would have good success in the fall if a season opened how come next to no one is out killing them in the winter when the season is open? They will call just the same with snow on the ground? Just wondering as maybe I missed the part where cats only come into calls and such in the fall.

I think the biggest push for this is by guys just wanting to pack a tag during regular hunting seasons for that just by chance encounter not by the guys that wanna call cats.
SG

[Stinky Coyote]

Im going to blow my rabbit call if anyone needs me....WRAHHHHHHH WWWRRAAHHHHH:rolleye2:

sounds like unless its another hound guy you've got little time for folks....especially predator callers....we are inferior to you big shots with the dogs eh, shows in each of your posts....and your little remarks get better the more you post....whats next....we wear pink and walk a little fancy? looks like your on the way to showing true colors......if you have a problem with callers just say so, don't beat around the bush with all the little comments....your a real hero

you get all worked up because you say you try to bring some valid points to light and someone plays devils advocate or bring up valid points of their own....maybe next time while trying to bring your valid points to light don't insult acreage owners and other hunters in the process....why do you think i said anything?....what?....your the only one allowed to get your back up and be a pr_ck?.... 'acreage owners and other braniacs, heros patten yourselfs on the back staring at 80 lb cat, idiot this idiot that`....bigshot hunting snob the way you go about it

[Stinky Coyote]

You know what, i was still a little po-d when i posted the above but i'm over it now. Here's the core why i got a little heated....usually i like stickin up for other folks but this time its more personal......

In his first main post responding to walking buff on calling, he insults or belittles my parents (acreage owners) with the braniacs thing and get used to the dogs or get used to the cats thats life....one or the other attitude he'd force upon all acreage owners...........then insults me and my buddy for shooting called in cats that wouldn't meet his trophy standards not having a clue that we too put in years and years of sweat trying to get to a point to be good enough to do that....you know....we should be 'patten' ourselves on the back staring at our 80 lb trophies comments.......we really got serious about the cougar thing after we called in 3 different lynx in one day so thats when we started reading the regs, calling hotlines, buying tags etc. as we knew with the amount of time we were putting into it and sign we saw that it was going to happen...and it did, twice, and some guy(fellow hunter) is belittling us on our trophies and my parents because they happen to be acreage owners and apparently he has issue with acreage owners AND callers

so thats basically it, he took a run a me, my buddy and my folks....maybe not intentionally but thats why my back is up on this....so....i'm going to say i'm all calm now and don't really care whats said, i'll apologize if i've crossed any lines in this thread....so point them out if i have....i'm going to move on now

team hunter is what i'm about, not this divide and conqure stuff, it was just a discussion that went wild due to lack of forsight imo

[Banya]

You know what, i was still a little po-d when i posted the above but i'm over it now. Here's the core why i got a little heated....usually i like stickin up for other folks but this time its more personal......

In his first main post responding to walking buff on calling, he insults or belittles my parents (acreage owners) with the braniacs thing and get used to the dogs or get used to the cats thats life....one or the other attitude he'd force upon all acreage owners...........then insults me and my buddy for shooting called in cats that wouldn't meet his trophy standards not having a clue that we too put in years and years of sweat trying to get to a point to be good enough to do that....you know....we should be 'patten' ourselves on the back staring at our 80 lb trophies comments.......we really got serious about the cougar thing after we called in 3 different lynx in one day so thats when we started reading the regs, calling hotlines, buying tags etc. as we knew with the amount of time we were putting into it and sign we saw that it was going to happen...and it did, twice, and some guy(fellow hunter) is belittling us on our trophies and my parents because they happen to be acreage owners and apparently he has issue with acreage owners AND callers

so thats basically it, he took a run a me, my buddy and my folks....maybe not intentionally but thats why my back is up on this....so....i'm going to say i'm all calm now and don't really care whats said, i'll apologize if i've crossed any lines in this thread....so point them out if i have....i'm going to move on now

team hunter is what i'm about, not this divide and conqure stuff, it was just a discussion that went wild due to lack of forsight imo

hey stinky, no wear did i read that houndsman directly insulted your parents quit turning things around to justify your self. as for your coment abought people not being able to aford dogs or a hunt being at a dissadvantage is pure bull . hounsmen make allot of sacrifice to be able to do what we do. we all live in the same country with equal opertunity so dont let jealousy ruin it for evoryone. no one is stoping any hunter from leagaly hunting cats in season without dogs.i understand the sexing issue but thats how it is. thats how were controling the population. i see absolutly no need to have a seperate non hound season
just increase the quotas in the high population areas, this would keep the quotas open longer and it would make evoryone happy.

Banya

[ishootbambi]

i hear ya stink. noone has any right to tell you your 90 lb female or your buddy's 125 lb male isnt a trophy. i have taken a few better than average deer and i would never tell anyone their 150 whitetail isnt a trophy. there are a few guys that tell other hunters they arent any good because of their chosen method of hunting, and thats not right either. just more self serving protectionism leading to attacking other hunters.

dale

[AxiALe]

Well said Banya !!!!!!!

[cougarhunter]

I've met a two old boys a few years ago and both of them had killed nice tom cougars by checking for tracks in fresh snow then taking off after them on foot... without hounds.... Now thats determination. Probably doesn't have much to do with any of this but I thought it was pretty awesome. The one old boy even got his with a bow and it made P&Y.

[NCC]

Another thing for the acerage owners and other brainiacs to consider with this lovely new proposal is; When sub-adult kittens still traveling with there mothers become suddenly orphaned pre maturely, they will take what little hunting tools and lessons they have aquired and put them to work on the easiest game they can find. Guess what that will be, all the calves, colts, and fluffy the poodle!!!



In my opinion those acerage people need to decide, either live with the cats, or deal with the hounds. Its that simple. It always amazes me how people want to move out into the wilderness and have there own little piece of nature. But as soon as someone "thinks" they see some kind of predator its immediatly wearing a death sentence hero cookie around its neck, and everyone is out to get it.

Happy Hunting[/QUOTE]

The third option is to open a fall season so that the average Joe hunter can pack a cougar tag and shoot one if there is an incidental meeting, such as a cougar responding to an elk bugle. Taking tags out of the pockets of several thousand Alberta hunters to keep cougar hunting for 50 or 100 guys with dogs is hardly justifiable. Most guys are limited to one or two weeks of hunting every year due to family and work commitments, and if they want to hunt a cougar they have to fit it in to that schedule. The last thing we want to do as a group is start alienating the guys who are not hardcore hunters and let our numbers dwindle further.

[Stinky Coyote]

banya, not jealous, have our cats and if we want more we know how to get them...dogs or no dogs, i'm rooting for the non-hound tag during regular seasons in areas that can support it and areas and possibly areas where running hounds is difficult....i'm not a hound guy and haven't done that so have no idea if its a pain trying to run cats in bowzones or high density areas, just guessing it is a pain due to so many access needing to be sorted out,

any rate....non-hound season sounds good to me and like black bears....don't see kittens or spots then good to go, sure they could be around the corner but like black bears the risk would be about the same and we are ok with that aren't we?

i agree the sex thing can be worked around by non-hound hunters who are mostly going to be callers as it is, as the winter is generally when the callers are out doing their thing so its been done and can be done its just not a system that lends well to anything but hound work if one sex is already closed for a zone....the callers 50 buck tag becomes all but useless unless willing to gamble on what comes in but if a sex is closed its no big deal for houndsmen, got all day to look up their junk to see whats going on.....

so i'm all for non-hound seasons where it can be supported by numbers, and or, hard to access areas for houndsmen

[sheepguide]

banya, not jealous, have our cats and if we want more we know how to get them...dogs or no dogs, i'm rooting for the non-hound tag during regular seasons in areas that can support it and areas and possibly areas where running hounds is difficult....i'm not a hound guy and haven't done that so have no idea if its a pain trying to run cats in bowzones or high density areas, just guessing it is a pain due to so many access needing to be sorted out,

any rate....non-hound season sounds good to me and like black bears....don't see kittens or spots then good to go, sure they could be around the corner but like black bears the risk would be about the same and we are ok with that aren't we?

i agree the sex thing can be worked around by non-hound hunters who are mostly going to be callers as it is, as the winter is generally when the callers are out doing their thing so its been done and can be done its just not a system that lends well to anything but hound work if one sex is already closed for a zone....the callers 50 buck tag becomes all but useless unless willing to gamble on what comes in but if a sex is closed its no big deal for houndsmen, got all day to look up their junk to see whats going on.....

so i'm all for non-hound seasons where it can be supported by numbers, and or, hard to access areas for houndsmen

So just to straighten things out a little here. You think that a non hound season should be opened and guys should be able to shoot any sex cat with no quota. But yet the houndsman are only allowed a certain number of each sex.
How does that work as a managment type of system? On group can shoot what ever they wish and the other in very limited.
I agree with your ideas of a cat season being open through out the general hunting season as we do need to thin out a few more cats but the idea stated just doesnt seem to work, it needs to be regulated in some way, shape or form.
And how can the sex thing be worked around by non hound hunters? 99% wont have a clue what sex that cat is. And as you and TJ said its not new killing cats by calling and can be done with out tons of trouble. So what happens if caller kill 4 times what they feel now is a managable havest number in a CMA? There is a reason for the quota so why should that be shoved in the corner so that a seperate group can hunt. If they want a seperate non hound season they should at least be controlled on their harvest numbers and be happy to just have the oppertunity even if it has a few restrictions.
SG

[SDG]

There seem to be some misconceptions being thrown out in these discussions about Boot seasons for Cougar. These proposed seasons are NOT for areas where we currently hunt Cougar (Cougar Management Areas/ CMA’s) or areas where new CMA’s might be implemented. The proposed Boot seasons would be held outside of these where, to quote the biologists “cougars are now present in some areas where hunting with hounds is difficult due to an abundance of private land.”
We are not sure where these proposed areas are exactly but this could mean places like Mannyberries or Drumheller.

Looking back in history in Alberta we had a fall Boot season for Cougar which was ended in 1985 by our government. The reason for abandoning it was that “A cougar hunter in the fall typically has little chance to determine the sex of a cougar before it is shot” (Pg. 106 The Cougar in Alberta). The supporting data for this change was that the majority of the harvest from this season was female.

Since that time we have become aware of other negative issues that are associated with this type of season. Most of them have to do with safety of property and the public.

1) There is a wounding factor associated with all different types of hunting. The ability to follow up with a killing shot can be hampered by the type of weapon used (rifle, bow muzzleloader) but a loss of some wounded animals is a fact. This is always undesirable, however when a deer is wounded it does not pose a safety issue because it is not looking to kill someone’s livestock, pets or children. This is not the case with Cougars. When they lose the ability to hunt properly they turn to whatever is easiest to catch as an alternative. Having wounded Cougars running around “where hunting with hounds is difficult due to an abundance of private land” does not sound like a wise management choice.

During our current Cougar seasons Boot hunting is allowed but there are differences that exist from the proposed fall season. First the likelihood of having tracking snow to follow wounded Cougars in December, January or February is much greater. However when a Boot hunter is unsuccessful in tracking a wounded Cougar down this hunter has the legal ability to search out someone with hounds to assist.
Some will point out that there also is a wounding factor associated with hound hunting. This is true however it is the loss factor that is the important factor here. It is virtually zero.


2) The other problem with Boot hunting and also the Landowner Authority (Landowner Boot hunt) for that matter is the potential of orphaning dependent kittens. Studies on Cougar have shown that approximately 50% of mature female Cougar have dependent young at any one time. During a Boot hunt there is often little more than time to take a shot never mind try to determine the sex of the Cougar. During this process some kittens are orphaned. Orphaning is a real statistical fact. If these kittens are very young they either starve to death or are eaten by predators however if they are large enough to have started their hunting lessons we may have a very serious problem on our hands.
There is documentation (some of it from Alberta) that a high percentage of orphaned kittens can become problem wildlife. This is because the life skills necessary to become independent, which are taught to them by their mother, are cut short by her death. Orphaned Cougars are like wounded Cougars in that they have to find easier prey. Unfortunately this prey can easily become livestock or humans.


This submission is not meant as an attack on any group of hunters but simply an attempt to show why we have a Cougar Management Plan. This is merely an attempt to provide some sound documentation so that we might have some meaningful discussion.
That said, with all of the data available from ours and other jurisdictions we have to seriously question the credibility of the implementation of fall Boot seasons and the continuation of the current Landowner Authority to kill Cougars on sight.

[sheepguide]

Thanks for the post SDG. Los of good info there.
SG

[Stinky Coyote]

sheepguide...wow....how bout every cat still gets registered like they do now...even on landowner tags.....so the managers can do any sort of opening/closing of 'boot hunt seasons' as deemed necessary based on numbers and sex harvested?

and not that i have any particular desire to see kittens die, i'm kind of 50/50 on the cat/dog person thing so seeing pups or kittens in distress would bother me equally.....that said i'll shoot coyote pups and not bat an eye, can't say i could do that to kittens of any sort so i can see people really standing up for the kittens and holding that real tight like the hardcore bowhunters fighting the crossbow inclusion holding onto that 'hold at draw' argument to protect their hunting slice/even livelyhood.......

so lets say no boot season and just increase quotas then.....honest question as i know alot of hunters who don't like to play the permission on private land game and stick to public land because they are tired of the hassles involved....would it reasonable to assume that in acreage country the same would ring true for the hound guys? given the patience level demonstrated by one of the hound guys here i have a hard time believing he'd run dogs on private land at all and rather slit his wrists than chase a cat in acreage country but i could be wrong so go ahead and correct me....

now lets say majority of dog runners stick to bigger land chunks and avoid the brainiacs etc. then how would increased quota's help this situation at all? the boot season sounds alot better than nothing even if risk of some kittens lost

[sheepguide]

sheepguide...wow....how bout every cat still gets registered like they do now...even on landowner tags.....so the managers can do any sort of opening/closing of 'boot hunt seasons' as deemed necessary based on numbers and sex harvested?


Kinda what I stated from the very begining when the whole argument started. Im not against the season but there needs to be a quota on it also.

Like SDG stated there are alot of things against this type of season that I never though about. Not sure of many acreage owners that would wanna have some wounded cats or orphaned kittens running around there places.

And just a little info on the running of cats on private land. Happens all the time. Many cats are killed on private areas its just alot tougher to do to make sure that there is no trespassing laws broken. There is a large number of Cats in the Prairie Creek area and lots of acreages. These areas are hunted pretty hard by a couple houndsmen from Rocky and Caroline that take out resident hunters as they are know to be areas of problems with cats.

A boot season would help in high population areas for sure where numbers are above what is wanted. But just like stated it needs a managent plan. If they feel an unlimited quota is whats needed and in some areas this is probably be the case but in many areas that wont be the case.

And this type of boot season isnt gunna satisfy the guys that just wanna chance to pull the trigger on that cat they see while hunting, and these are the ones wanting it the most.
SG

[Banya]

There seem to be some misconceptions being thrown out in these discussions about Boot seasons for Cougar. These proposed seasons are NOT for areas where we currently hunt Cougar (Cougar Management Areas/ CMA’s) or areas where new CMA’s might be implemented. The proposed Boot seasons would be held outside of these where, to quote the biologists “cougars are now present in some areas where hunting with hounds is difficult due to an abundance of private land.”
We are not sure where these proposed areas are exactly but this could mean places like Mannyberries or Drumheller.

Looking back in history in Alberta we had a fall Boot season for Cougar which was ended in 1985 by our government. The reason for abandoning it was that “A cougar hunter in the fall typically has little chance to determine the sex of a cougar before it is shot” (Pg. 106 The Cougar in Alberta). The supporting data for this change was that the majority of the harvest from this season was female.

Since that time we have become aware of other negative issues that are associated with this type of season. Most of them have to do with safety of property and the public.

1) There is a wounding factor associated with all different types of hunting. The ability to follow up with a killing shot can be hampered by the type of weapon used (rifle, bow muzzleloader) but a loss of some wounded animals is a fact. This is always undesirable, however when a deer is wounded it does not pose a safety issue because it is not looking to kill someone’s livestock, pets or children. This is not the case with Cougars. When they lose the ability to hunt properly they turn to whatever is easiest to catch as an alternative. Having wounded Cougars running around “where hunting with hounds is difficult due to an abundance of private land” does not sound like a wise management choice.

During our current Cougar seasons Boot hunting is allowed but there are differences that exist from the proposed fall season. First the likelihood of having tracking snow to follow wounded Cougars in December, January or February is much greater. However when a Boot hunter is unsuccessful in tracking a wounded Cougar down this hunter has the legal ability to search out someone with hounds to assist.
Some will point out that there also is a wounding factor associated with hound hunting. This is true however it is the loss factor that is the important factor here. It is virtually zero.


2) The other problem with Boot hunting and also the Landowner Authority (Landowner Boot hunt) for that matter is the potential of orphaning dependent kittens. Studies on Cougar have shown that approximately 50% of mature female Cougar have dependent young at any one time. During a Boot hunt there is often little more than time to take a shot never mind try to determine the sex of the Cougar. During this process some kittens are orphaned. Orphaning is a real statistical fact. If these kittens are very young they either starve to death or are eaten by predators however if they are large enough to have started their hunting lessons we may have a very serious problem on our hands.
There is documentation (some of it from Alberta) that a high percentage of orphaned kittens can become problem wildlife. This is because the life skills necessary to become independent, which are taught to them by their mother, are cut short by her death. Orphaned Cougars are like wounded Cougars in that they have to find easier prey. Unfortunately this prey can easily become livestock or humans.


This submission is not meant as an attack on any group of hunters but simply an attempt to show why we have a Cougar Management Plan. This is merely an attempt to provide some sound documentation so that we might have some meaningful discussion.
That said, with all of the data available from ours and other jurisdictions we have to seriously question the credibility of the implementation of fall Boot seasons and the continuation of the current Landowner Authority to kill Cougars on sight.

thanks for the added info verry well said

Banya

[wolfkiller]

Awesome, very well indeed!!!

[ishootbambi]

Kinda what I stated from the very begining when the whole argument started. Im not against the season but there needs to be a quota on it also.

SG

noone ever said otherwise man. a quota on it and registering them absolutely should be part of a new season.

[walking buffalo]

THis post should get the other two anti No Hound season proponents to visit my profile page. :rolleye2:


Some guys are opposed to the proposed fall season, fine. As I posted early on, keep stirring the pot. Start a thread, act innocent and neive, then jump on anyone that says anything positve towards a No Hound season. I do appreciate that there is now some attempt to post carefully selected info to support your position, and comments are now civil.

From what I can source , (Please provide your full sources next time when stating "facts") many reasons listed against the proposed fall season are opinion, not scientific fact, some are very biased opinion (propaganda).

Quotes are from SDG

“We are not sure where these proposed areas are exactly but this could mean places like Mannyberries or Drumheller.” That would be awesome! Thanks SRD!


“The supporting data for this change was that the majority of the harvest from this season was female.” A majority of 50% +1? or should I quess 7 females to 6 males? ;) Remember, the goal of the fall NO HOUND hunt is to harvest female cats to REDUCE the cat population in some areas.


“Wounding Factor” What wounding factor? Anticipated to be three cats/fall season? Supply some data. Are you saying we should stop all hunting of predators because of your suggestion there will likely be human safety threats from wounded bears, wolves cats…?


“There is documentation (some of it from Alberta) that a high percentage of orphaned kittens can become problem wildlife.” Ya, so..? The document is about orphaned animals from ALL causes of mortality to the mother. Better ban vehicles, other predators, disease, starvation, old age and bad luck.

“This submission is not meant as an attack on any group of hunters but simply an attempt to show why we have a Cougar Management Plan” We do not have a cougar management plan to limit the style, location, and time of year of hunting surplus cougars. It is to maintain a healthy, but controlled population of cats with considerations to other wildlife species, livestock depredation, human interests (human safety, wildlife viewing, hunting, note; residents have priority over outfitters for hunting resources in Alberta).

More precisely:

1. Resource protection
2. Resource allocation
3. Recreational use
4. Commercial use
5. Protection of private property
6. Science and Education

“we have to seriously question the credibility of the implementation of fall Boot seasons and the continuation of the current Landowner Authority to kill Cougars on sight”

‘We’ being who? Houndsmen Association? Are you guys also going to propose that landowners should also have the right taken away to protect their family and property from bears and wolves?

When wolves are worth $5k a pop to outfitters, I’m sure you would.

SDG, who sponsored the proposed cougar hunting changes?

[sheepguide]

[QUOTE]What wounding factor? Anticipated to be three cats/fall season? Supply some data. Are you saying we should stop all hunting of predators because of your suggestion there will likely be human safety threats from wounded bears, wolves cats…?
I do beleive the main topic is hunting these Cats in the more populated areas which have very minimal wolf and bear hunting. And the wounding factor could possibly go up as not all shot oppertunities can be controlled as in a tree.


Ya, so..? The document is about orphaned animals from ALL causes of mortality to the mother. Better ban vehicles, other predators, disease, starvation, old age and bad luck.

So do you honestly figure an orphaned fawn is the same as a orphaned cougar running around populated areas?

We do not have a cougar management plan to limit the style, location, and time of year of hunting surplus cougars. It is to maintain a healthy, but controlled population of cats with considerations to other wildlife species, livestock depredation, human interests (human safety, wildlife viewing, hunting, note; residents have priority over outfitters for hunting resources in Alberta).

You do realize that the couple guys that your aguing against are residents and run hounds for residents? They arent taking out non residents.


‘We’ being who? Houndsmen Association? Are you guys also going to propose that landowners should also have the right taken away to protect their family and property from bears and wolves?

Not sure that anyone stated this anywhere. No one said you shouldnt shoot a cat if its causing a risk to life.


When wolves are worth $5k a pop to outfitters, I’m sure you would.
You may wanna research a little as a local outfitters rates for 2010 for Wolf/Coyote hunts are for a 1 on 1 hunt,
6days $5500us
9days $6500us
12days $7500us

[Stinky Coyote]

just can't help yourself, even when your in way over your head you still gotta say something just to say something....1/2 of me is amazed, the other 1/2 expected it...maybe you will get to have the last word, god knows you'll try your best to have it

you really think that after reading walking buff's last post that you can go toe to toe with him? what are you smoking? i've said my bit and i'm out, you've said more than enough...you should be too, as things are going to get well technical now and clearly our positions/defenses/stakes in the subject have been stated and cleared up.....lets let the conversation go to the folks who aren't finished with their defenses/positions/stakes etc. okay?

[sheepguide]

just can't help yourself, even when your in way over your head you still gotta say something just to say something....1/2 of me is amazed, the other 1/2 expected it...maybe you will get to have the last word, god knows you'll try your best to have it

. got your edit.

[Stinky Coyote]

roger that

[walking buffalo]

I do beleive the main topic is hunting these Cats in the more populated areas which have very minimal wolf and bear hunting. And the wounding factor could possibly go up as not all shot oppertunities can be controlled as in a tree.

So do you honestly figure an orphaned fawn is the same as a orphaned cougar running around populated areas?

You do realize that the couple guys that your aguing against are residents and run hounds for residents? They arent taking out non residents.

Not sure that anyone stated this anywhere. No one said you shouldnt shoot a cat if its causing a risk to life.

You may wanna research a little as a local outfitters rates for 2010 for Wolf/Coyote hunts are for a 1 on 1 hunt,
6days $5500us
9days $6500us
12days $7500us

SG,

I must say that your posts in this thread have been well balanced, with exception to parts of this last one. I know, slow day on the forum....

Comment 1- SDG claims wounding rates would be too high to justify a No Hound season, I disagree. What's your opinion? Lots of bears and wolves are shot in human populated areas.

2- Comment directly noted Predators, not ungulates.

3- Recreational hunting has legislated priority over commercial hunting (outfitting), whether guiding residents or non-residents.

4- SDG said so. His opinion would put landowners in a legal situation similar to those that have had to shoot a grizzly. I must say that I do have difficulty with low quotas in areas where landowner conflicts are a regular occurance. I agree a quota should and likely will be included for a fall season. Opening a quota fall season will help reduce cat populations in specified areas and expand hunter opportunity. Win, win.

5- Your point is valid. How ever wolf hunts will last the full time booked, regardless if animals are taken on the first day. I am not saying the outfitters do not earn their money. A couple of difference between the two species that effect outfitters is the quota sytem for cats vs. no limit for wolves, and the use of hounds. My point being SDG's 'We', Houndsmen association (?), is throwing out any conceivable concept in their argument to exclude a No Hound season, valid or not.

TTYL, get back to work! :)

[sheepguide]

[QUOTE]Comment 1- SDG claims wounding rates would be too high to justify a No Hound season, I disagree. What's your opinion? Lots of bears and wolves are shot in human populated area.

The thing I think your missing is that most of these populated areas that are being brought forward are in areas out side of current CMA if im reading things correct. And what I was saying is very few bears and wolves are shot in these areas. And im not saying that wounding rates would be to high as I dont know what them wounding rates would be nor does anyone on here. I do know that it would be higher than the current season but by how much im not sure, and if its populated areas that are of concern then having wounded cougars has to also be a concern and something looked at before a season such as this can go forward.

2- Comment directly noted Predators, not ungulates.

Sorry as I read it in different context.

3- Recreational hunting has legislated priority over commercial hunting (outfitting), whether guiding residents or non-residents.

True statment. But the higher percentage of hunters that houndsman are taking out in Alberta are recreational hunting Alberta residents. With out these houndsman many Alberta residents wanting to partake in recreational cougar hunting could not. A resident hunter hunting in Alberta with his general over the counter tag is Recreationaly Hunting. How he gets that animal, who helps him or what it costs doesnt change that.

And I cant do any work the rig is broke down(sorry if that offends anyone).LOL
SG

[SDG]

In response to some comments posted after my first submission I am providing the following data.

1) To clarify a point on the Landowner Authority issue. The problem with the Alberta legislation is that it allows landowners to actively hunt and kill non-offending Cougars.

No one is about to take issue with a landowner who is defending his property or safety.
Other jurisdictions have enacted legislation that clearly allows for that. As an example the Wyoming Mountain Lion Management plan allows “property owners or their employees and lessees to kill mountain lions damaging private property, given they immediately notify the nearest game warden of the incident”.
It would be difficult for anyone to take issue if something similar to this were adopted in Alberta.

2) The orphaning and wounding/loss issues associated with proposed Boot seasons.

a) Orphaning: We can not do anything about Cougars that are orphaned by natural deaths car accidents etc. but we CAN minimize those orphaned by hunters.

South Dakota changed its Cougar hunting season in 2009 to Jan. 1 through Mar. 31 due specifically to orphaning issues.
Previously Cougar seasons were held concurrent with other big game seasons.
The change to a winter season was made as a result of the 2007 season where three males were killed and 16 females were taken. The total state quota for female Cougar was only 15. It went over by one which explains the 16th female. Of those 16 females 3 had dependent litters which resulted in the orphaning of seven kittens. This documentation means that 18.75 % of the females or 1 in 5 that were harvested when they had a fall Boot hunt created orphaning situations.

John Kanata is the regional wildlife manager with the GF&P in South Dakota and is quoted as saying, “We know through research we substantially decrease the chances of orphaning kittens starting in January,”


b) Wounding/ loss: The wounding/ loss issue in any Boot hunting is undeniable. Their will be Cougars wounded and lost. The fact that losses of wounded Cougar while hunting with dogs are virtually non-existent would indicate that all Cougar seasons should include their use.
It could actually be argued that because the loss of wounded Cougar is entirely preventable and that hunting with dogs should be mandatory. However that is not the position being proposed here as Boot hunters will have the ability to seek assistance to track wounded Cougar from someone with dogs.

Wounded or orphaned Cougars can present a real threat to private property and public safety. It is only reasonable therefore to enact legislation that will provide the greatest possible insurance against creating these issues.

It appears that the main contention concerning the proposed Boot seasons stem from two camps.
One camp contains those hunters that are simply not interested in hunting Cougar but merely shooting them while they are hunting other game.
The second camp contains those hunters that value the opportunity to actually hunt Cougar with or without dogs and recognize these cats for the unique big game animal that they are.

[pottymouth]

[QUOTE=SDG;626677]In response to some comments posted after my first submission I am providing the following data.

1) To clarify a point on the Landowner Authority issue. The problem with the Alberta legislation is that it allows landowners to actively hunt and kill non-offending Cougars.

No one is about to take issue with a landowner who is defending his property or safety.
Other jurisdictions have enacted legislation that clearly allows for that. As an example the Wyoming Mountain Lion Management plan allows “property owners or their employees and lessees to kill mountain lions damaging private property, given they immediately notify the nearest game warden of the incident”.
It would be difficult for anyone to take issue if something similar to this were adopted in Alberta. [end quote]



Wouldn't implementing something like the WMLMP, be alot worse than a boot season? Hunters would have permission from land owners to shoot Lions, without the purchase of a tag. Obtaining that kind of permission would easy for most who have a good relantionship with their land owners.

Why not have a boot season, with a draw quota in zones, that has an over abudence of cats? and then have the regular hound season?

Wouldn't adding a draw on the boot season, curb the likely hood of a chance hunting, to more of an educated, or specialized hunter who might be/ or will educate themselves before applying. I'm sure the effects of a 1 female shot, in a concentrated area will not damage the whole cat population, much like a ewe shot with a lamb.( which I think we all agree, is the most important animal, according to SRD) Having a draw to control such things might actually help the cats, and maybe increase mature lions for the hounds men. Either way, there has to be an answer that makes both sides happy and makes sense for the lions!

JMO

[cougarhunter]

HEY EVERYBODY

Just seen the regs tonight.... AND NO NEW CHANGES FOR COUGAR HUNTING THIS UPCOMING SEASON WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:sHa_shakeshout:

[walking buffalo]

HEY EVERYBODY

Just seen the regs tonight.... AND NO NEW CHANGES FOR COUGAR HUNTING THIS UPCOMING SEASON WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:sHa_shakeshout:

The proposed changes are for the 2011 hunting season, fall 2011/winter 2012.

Does anyone have further info. on the rumour of putting cougars on a draw? So far, only Sheephunter has mentioned that some Bios mentioned the idea. SDG, anyone, What is the Houndsmen Ass. position on a draw system for Cougars?

The draw concept was probably quickly dismissed by F&W for good reasons.