Brian L. Horejsi

[desiel]

WTF! I just read his letter in the new AO were has this guy been. He sounds like a centry old army sargent. If one does wrong then punish all. I as a quad user have lost some of the best hard pack trails in the west due to the abuse of a few. These few have pooped in thier bed down south at Wiaprose and have lost most of that to damage and drinking along with all that goes with that behavior. Now in the last 6 months i have seen major damage west of Caroline. One of the groups were a 4x4 club from Calgary and as stated in Brians letter the description is very accuate as to the descrpition of the group. I have some of the same views as Brian but the punish all attitude is not accestible for me and hope that with the new CO officers we can have some of these abusers ticketed so everyone can enjoy the public land that we pay for in taxes. If anyone feels the same maybe send a letter to Mr. Morton so the CO's and Forestry fellows can start to deal with these people.
Back to the new AO mag and i hope everyones season is going good.

desiel

[Brady]

I suspect that Rob will be getting a few replies to put in next months issue. After I read that letter, the first thing that came to mind....was PETA-head-Anti-hunter. Not sure if that is the case, but...............Ya I agree with some of which he wrote, but most was off the wall, in my opinion:sick: :scared: :confused:

[Bushrat]

I feel sorry for the responsible majority of quadders. There is a vast groundswell of anti-quad sentiment growing very rapidly. Seems the minority of trouble makers have no end of rope to hang themselves with and can't seem to alienate themselves fast enough dragging the good people down with them. Ethical quadders must stop turning a blind eye to these ********s and start reporting them and putting peer pressure on them to conform just as ethical hunters must report and openly discourage the bad actors in our community.

[Duk Dog]

I feel sorry for the responsible majority

Just to borrow part of your sentence isn't that always the way with so many different situations!!

[Dick284]

Well said Bushrat.
We are stuck as sportspeople and outdoor enthusiests between a rock and a hard place on this subject. On one hand we hate to see the wanton disregarde and destruction that irresponsable quadders create, and we also hate to see the use of a broad brush to paint everyone with.
The fact still remains that it takes more than just a few bad apples to pull off the crap that is happening. To quote my neighbors friend when he found out about the quadding restricitons in the Blue Rapids Rec. area. " they wont let you quad in the muskeg, or the streams or the river, so what's the fun in that" This guy is part of the problem, and does'nt even know it. I think there in lies the problem.
I dont even own a quad, but I had at one time, and it became increasingly easy to do such things as quoted, but being able to recognize where that sort of behavior takes things convinced me to sell it.
The responsable quadders have to step up and hit a home run, by showing they can be responsable, they should be working with the Province to enshrine laws and guidelines, ask for increased penalties, and possible sanctions for the bad minority. If they as the responsable advocates fail to be procative, they will be handed restrictions applied with a broad brush, and will suffer with regulations not necessarily aimed at them but at the trouble makers.

[Huntnut]

He wrote the same letter in the fall issue of Alberta Game Warden as well. Seems like he is on a mission.

[Dick284]

Did a goggle on this feller:
Read all about him:
http://www.banffcentre.ca/MountainCulture/mtnconferences/eesma/bio/Horejsi.htm
http://www.banffcentre.ca/mountainculture/mtnconferences/eesma/abstract/horejsi.htm
http://www.ccwc.ab.ca/
And at pg. 27 of 42: http://www.cec.org/files/pdf/JPAC/SR0-02E_EN.PDF

[Kutenay]

Horesji is a highly respected professional biologist with a great deal of field experience in the area of concern, so, I don't quite get the apparent antagonism toward him here? I have no means of reading whatever missive he wrote that seems to have aroused the ire of some posters, but, the works by him that I have on my bookshelf certainly impress me.

It seems that quite a number of biologists are concerned about the survival of certain species, "apex predators", such as Grizzlies among them. This, to my mind, is simply being an ethical professional and what we should expect from people in any aspect of resource study/management....and oftimes do not get.

I spent enough time, about 20 years in various aspects of forestry and have been involved in wilderness conservation, etc., for over 40 years. I know that anyone can make errors, but, the biologists I have known are pretty decent people of high integrity and genuine concern for wildlife, wish I could say the same about all "hunters".

[ABDUKNUT]

I just read the article...

Not only did I find it a little amusing, but I agree with every word 100%

[Rocks]

After I read that letter, the first thing that came to mind....was PETA-head-Anti-hunter. Not sure if that is the case, but...............

I know where I've seen his name before - in the Alberta Wildlife records with a 183" bighorn ram...

[Brady]

I know where I've seen his name before - in the Alberta Wildlife records with a 183" bighorn ram...

Fair enough Rocks, but I don't think that gives him the right to paint all with the same brush. That is something, we as a whole, do not need.

[Ray]

I don't think it's Dr. Horejsi that is painting all off roaders with the same brush. Since there is no mechanism to separate irresponsible from responsible users, it is the boneheads who are abusing the land that are in effect painting all with the same brush. I certianly don't have the answer, but the destruction is undeniable. Unless something can be done along the lines of consistent enforcment (unlikely, considering the resources needed) it seems to me that draconian restrictions could be on the horizon.

[Rocks]

For sure Brady. Some of his stuff I read regarding grizzlies made me think he was a PETA type too, I was surprised to see his name in the record book...

[Morbius131]

It really doesn't matter if he is in the record books, a respected biologist or the Premier of Canada. His stereotypical statements and propaganda is absolutely rediculous. He has an axe to grind and it seems more for personal benefit. WE need to share the outdoors with everyone...not just the non-atving population. He really needs to work with the outdoors group for change, rather than calling us out and insulting our intellegence.

Morb

[Huntnut]

Well said Morb-I agree completely

[Brady]

Once again, fair enough, Ray........but, in his letter, he made some sweeping statements that he as, a whatever he is, has no clue of. How does he know that "off roaders are notorious non-participants in democratic process; the core group of machine and party idolizing young males are environmental deadbeats"

Or his statement..."Off roaders, of course are not there to watch wildlife....."

I could go on, but the bottom line is this man, did something that we in this little group of Alberta Outdoorsmen/women try very hard not to do, generalize and stereotype. I think that most of us can agree, that this behaviour does little good for our future.
Is damage being done out there.....yes, can something be done to stop it without draconian measures....yes. Whether it be more "government agents", or just plain 'ol awareness, and condemnation ( and in saying that I refer to the riders who blatently show disregard for the land) from the responsible off roaders or anything else, I think we (as a group) could get results.

I guess what I am trying to say, is that I really don't like it when any one person tries to label me, or many, many others, as something that I/we am/are not, and tries to use WWII like propaganda to back his agenda. It is plain wrong, and irresponsible.



I don't think it's Dr. Horejsi that is painting all off roaders with the same brush. Since there is no mechanism to separate irresponsible from responsible users, it is the boneheads who are abusing the land that are in effect painting all with the same brush. I certianly don't have the answer, but the destruction is undeniable. Unless something can be done along the lines of consistent enforcment (unlikely, considering the resources needed) it seems to me that draconian restrictions could be on the horizon.

[thumper]

Well said x 2 Morb
And thanks to the AO for printing it.

If he's as sloppy with his sweeping generalizations, conspiracy theories and grandstanding in his scientific 'work' as he is in this rant, - then it really illustrates how biased and sloppy his 'professional opinion' may be in his contributions to how Alberta manages grizzly bears and other wildlife!

Maybe he and Suzuki could share some mountain peak to reflect on how wonderful they are - that they're so much further evolved than all of us knuckle-dragging neanderthals.

...and I've never even been on a quad!

[ABDUKNUT]

I think this guy makes some excellent points if anything, and I'm sure his bluntness stems from a wholehearted concern for our public wilderness, rather than selfish 'personal gain'. I too don't see any use for ATV's other than farmers and race tracks on private land.

I might mention this was one of the better reads in this month's issue... I liked it much better than the one about the 2 yahoo's shooting up what was obviously a goose roost in the afternoon when the birds were returning to rest from a day's feeding.

And what the heck was with the one about the group of guys chasing a wounded deer down, with loaded guns, and SHOOTING it well after legal shooting time, IN THE DARK? Then celebrating it with a round of vodkas???

Am I missing something here? Is the April Fools issue 6 months early this year?

[Ray]

Brady, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. I was pointing out that his statements were pandering to the view already in the minds of the public. The majority of people do not realize the difference between responsible and irresponsible users. To them all of those yahoos with their noisy, smelly machines are evil. Dr. Horejsi just played to this view to make political hay. I'm concerned that the powers that be will simply take the easy road and also go with the "ban 'em all" philosophy.

[Morbius131]

I can't believe the "ban them all on public land" philosophy. I am not sure if these people have never owned ATV's or if they have if they have ever used them properly. Places I have used my ATV to access for hunting and camping purposes would never be possible on foot. I think it is being forgotten that the places being "torn up by deadbeats" are also the locations that can be walked to within a day. What about those places that can't be accessed on foot...just never visit them?

Again too many people are punishing the majority for the acts of the minority. This is getting as bad as calling all hunters poachers, because a few CRIMINALS don't obey the law.

Morb

[Bull Shooter]

Well, I finally got my copy of AO and had a chance to real Horejsi’s letter for myself and I must admit I find it quite disturbing in a non-constructive sort of way.

I am a quad owner and find it an extremely useful tool in both my ranching operations and recreational pursuits. On my own personal property I will only take the quads or any motorized vehicle for that matter, off of established roads/paths if required to retrieve game or perform some type of work such as fencing or logging, and this does not happen too often. The native grasslands are far too valuable for my cattle and other game animals in the area.

I have access, virtually out my back door, to large forest reserves that have been devastated by irresponsible quad use, but I am careful here to recognize that these individual users or abusers are not representative of all quad owners. I think that this is where Horejsi fails in his letter. This is evidenced by the following blanket statements:

- “Crimes against the land, crimes against our streams and rivers... That is the legacy of off road vehicles and their users...”
- “These are the people that are fueling the destruction of the natural and real recreational world.”
- “Off roaders are notorious non-participants in democratic process;...”
- “The majority are non-voters who fancy themselves immune to responsibility,...”

Horejsi continues to demean and devalue other’s values and experiences by his own values and standards. I may not entirely disagree with his mission, but his execution is horrible, especially for a man of science. He apparently chooses to alienate (rather than educate) those that might provide the greatest resolution to the unfortunate and very real situation of irresponsible off-road use.

I have read some of Brian’s contributions towards habitat management and conservation initiatives, and for the most part, I agree with what he is trying to accomplish. In my opinion, this letter does little to advance the cause.

I own and use quads, I have never taken them “off-road” or on public lands save for ranching-related work and then I am extremely careful and mindful of the terrain. I have voted in every election (municipal, provincial and federal) since I was of legal age, with the exception of one where I was too sick to get out of bed. I am responsible and know that I am accountable for my actions. And finally, and I am quite confident in the veracity of this statement, I have contributed as much if not more than Mr. Horejsi to the conservation and protection of critical wildlife habitat to the benefit of all Albertans. I will not allow myself to be painted with his brush.

One final thought, if Horejsi really wants change... educate don’t irritate. The message is fine, the delivery is horrible. Regards, Mike

[VerySavage]

I sent a note via E-mail to Rob Miskosky earlier today, kind of wish I had kept a copy of my comments to add here. I am feeling too rough right now to get into writing another saga in response to Brian L Horejsi's letter, in fact I just stopped by for a quick look before going to bed with a couple morophine pain killers.
My first take, when I read this offensive letter was "who left the door open to allow entry to a PITA/AWA member". But I have no more fact or truth to back that up than he used to spew the 1/2 truth's and asortment of minor truth combined with major lies included in his letter.
I sold my only ATV/Quad about 7 years ago, it was mine for 12 years but only had 2500 km on the odometer because it stayed in the truck untill I had game down & needed the quad to hawl it back to my truck.
These days I use a Jeep & Pup Trailer in much the same way, in spite of my ongoing battle with cancer I still prefer to walk quietly in the bush once my vechicle is parked. Unfortunately I have had some of my hunts busted by quad users who will disrespect me by driving around my parked vechicle & blasting down the cutline or pipeline I am still hunting on, but I tend to blame those people of poor ethics rather than rant & rail against every guy who drives a truck with a quad in the back.
--Ken

[Okotokian]

I think all this "responsible" ATV'ers versus "irresponsible" ATV'ers is overplayed.... like irresponsible ones are the drinkers who party all night and the "responsible" ones are the quiet church-going family guys... I don't care about who's sober and who isn't. I think the bigger questions is what is the trail damage caused by large numbers of ATV's (driven by whoever) in the seemingly compressed crowded areas, especially west of Calgary, and the effect on game. I'd rather hear about that.

[Bull Shooter]

Ken, I think the majority of ATV owners act as you did; especially hunters. I hope you are feeling better soon.

Okotokian, I agee. I would far rather be educated and have others educated on the real issues surrounding off-road use than have some guy go into a condescending tirade about the socio-economic, political and mental condition of all owners of off-road vehicles.

Is there a problem? Most definitely. Do the users/abusers fully understand the consequences of their indiscretions? Probably not. I think we take it for granted that people understand or know about fish spawning grounds, or hillside erosion, or water contamination. The truth is that there are plenty of users who have no idea about the consequences of their actions. It’s just water or the grasses on the hillside will grow back next year. I think a great place to start would be to highly penalize those that intentionally litter in these areas; perhaps even give them a temporary ban from Provincial and Federal lands. I would guess, collaterally, that this would greatly improve the situation we see with off-roaders that have little regard for the habitat and its conservation. Regards, Mike

[thumper]

I think it's interesting how when we read a media story about something we're very familiar with - we can see plenty of 1/2 truths, misleading information or outright errors in it. But with a media story about something outside of our normal knowledge base - we tend to believe every word we read.

I too, have followed Horejsi's work regarding wildlife in the past - particularly grizzly bear research. As he's a scientist, and it's his life's work - I took what he wrote as the whole truth.

I don't own a quad, but I know a number of people who use them for hunting, and I do own dual-sport bikes that I use on BC forestry/logging roads. I'm familiar enough with the users I know to realize that Horejsi's rant is a gross generalization, and to now fear the sweeping recommendations that this influential scientist may be making to our government. I also object to his position that his recreation (sitting in silence on a mountaintop) trumps everyone elses. (or is he tolerant of horse-users? mountain bikers? hikers?)
This seems to be a common thread amongst eco-zealots.

But back to my first paragraph... his rant also makes me question the body of his previous, professional work that I thought to be the truth. I now suspect that it may have been agenda-based junk science - not the unbiased 'science' that I assumed it to be.

[outlaw'd]

This problem is everywhere. Have a look north of Long Island Lake, straight north of the saddlecircle club. The damage is irreversable. Its not just a few. This past weekend there were over 30 campers parked out in the general area, and they all had beefed up quads and or dirt bikes. I was in the area bow hunting for a moose, and was constantly run off the lines by these so called weekend warriors. There are lots of trails out there that had some wet spots, with dry areas beside them yet these idiots chose to rip through the mud and make bigger holes and such. Now before I get jumped all over, let it be known that I have a 660 grizzly, and like quadding as much as the next guy, but I am tired of the destruction that these idiots are causing. I own a quarter back there that has ski doo trails through it ( built on it before I bought it ), but I'll tell you what. Next year there will be no access through the property. This isn't " just a few bad apples ", this amounts to quite a few people that have no respect for the land, nature, the enviorment or anything else. The economy in Alberta is such that any moron with a few bucks can go out and buy an atv, and do as much damage as they want with no reapercushions(sp?). There used to be a trail that went from the summer village of Larkspur north towards the Spruce Island Lake, but it is no more. It is now just one big muskeg hole. The trail has been chewed up so much that it is virtually impassible unless its frozen. This trail used to be good for a few grouse and the odd moose was taken down it, but not any more, unless you have a hovercraft. Sad to say but I am starting to believe that there is not going to be any happy medium here. It'll end up being all or nothing. Another spot that comes to mind is acros the Vega ferry. Look how much damage was done out there. Its supposed to be closed down, but everytime I put the boat in the river, I could hear them ripping and tearing around. Heres anothr one............couple of weeks ago me and a buddy were checking our guns out in a gravel pit over by Clyde. We had been ther over an hour when we noticed a pick up pull in and a guy get all geared up to go riding his banshee. We had parked our vehicle across the access to the pit to prevent anyone from inadvertantly driving down by where we were sighting the rifles in at, and we were set up in plain view on a shooting bench. W e fired off about three rounds when we heard the bike fire up. This a__holecome flying right down past the truck, right across the front of our targets, went up a hill, spun around and came down the hill and then glared at us. Needless to say I was politiclly correct in informing him what may have happened had we been in the process of firing a rifle. I told the brain surgeon that we would be done in about half an hour, and then he could have the whole place to himself. He mumbled something and drove away. Meanwhile, a family of youngsters and thier father came down and we explained that we would be done asap to them as well. We fired off two more shots, and the idiot went flying past us again, so we packed up. The part that agrevates me about this whole thing was that this guy was in his 40's, and should have had half a brain, yet the youngsters were smart enough to stay clear. Anyways, enuff p and m'ing. Sorry for the rant.:mad3:

[Bushrat]

If you look at the design of many quads today, especially the sport or speed quads, it's quite obvious the intent of the vehicle is to rip and tear and nothing else. Thats why they are purchased and thats how they are used, they are not made for putting down a trail or to carry you to your hunting area or pull a moose out.

[Bull Shooter]

Bushrat, I wonder if we are getting into a bit of a “slippery slope” here discussing design and the intended use of the vehicle? I worry that similar logic could be applied to handguns, black-stocked rifles, semi-automatics, etc. Please do not get me wrong, I completely understand the thinking behind your statement I just think it would be more useful to direct the blame, responsibility and accountability on the individual users rather than the general users and their machines.

I am not in any way defending the actions of these individuals; I just think that they have no idea or appreciation for the long-term damage they are causing. I draw this observation from my own experiences thirty years ago. I did some stupid things with little regard for the consequences of my actions... largely because I failed to recognize the potential and real damage I was creating. I have no doubt that my change in character was due to some very patient people educating me on the importance conservation and management rather than chastising my actions. Lessons learned.

So what is the best course to set to solve the recognized problem? Is it an outright ban off off-road vehicles on public lands or do we restrict them to established roadways and approved trails? Do we ban the sport and speed quads altogether to reduce the owner’s temptation to push the vehicle’s limits? Is there any room for off-road vehicles on public lands?

Similar to firearms, I believe that quads don’t destroy habitat... people destroy habitat. We need to be educated, responsible and held accountable for our poor decisions. Regards, Mike

[packhuntr]

I just dont understand how anything could possibly be accomplished by way of policing and such. It will not work in stopping this destruction. We use machines for a couple hunt scenarios almost yearly, and also are very repectful, as are afew other people. But the bottom line is that probuably the vast majority of machines sold, ARE purchases with the intent to do our outdoors harm. Take a drive in the summer from Rocky down to the Trunk, it used to be a nice place though that country. Now its for the most part as far as my eyes are concerned nothing more than a big dirt bike, quad, and 4 by4 truck race track. I quit hunting there a quite afew years ago, and i just turned 30 years old. It aint like im nesessarily old school here, i just think we gotta protect it from this sort of abuse, and there needs to be something done awfully quick, though it beats me as to what should be done as well. Some guys here are getting defensive, and saying we shouldnt be grouped with these people that are doing the damage. I cant figure it out, cause like it or not, you are one, and so am i. Ya cant take a run at the neighbor girl more than once, and turn around and claim ya didnt like it. It might sound good, but everyone knows its B.S.

Dirt Bikes need to stay on race tracks and private land, beyond that, i dont know.

keep a strain er.

[Rockymtnx]

Is there any were that this letter can be viewed online where no subscribers of AO?
I know a few who would like to read it.

[gube]

I was down last week bow hunting moose north of long island as well. I was absolutely shocked at the damage done, especially along the lake shores. The muskeg was ripped up so bad that it was nearly impossible to walk on without sinking past your knees. By Saturday I was so fed up with the constant racing and roaring, that I packed up and left.

[jrs]

I haven't been home to read my magazine yet but changes are needed. I have a quad intended for fetching game (not needed much :lol: ) and for working out around the farm and i also use them for work. I don't understand the enjoyment of quading around all day as a form of recreation but i do recognize a lot of guys do and they need somewhere to go.

I used to support most access and i've never been one to participate in the anti-quad groups. My opinions slowly change over time and its due to the recreational quaders themselves and not pictures or stories i see on the internet. I have many examples but i'll share two from this summer.
First in July, i was camping up on Racehorse Creek and flyfishing during the days, crystal clear all week. Friday and Saturday comes and there was actually enough dirt bike and quad traffic that the water was stained till Monday. Guys would be going back and forth, up and down the creek all day.

The other scenario i encountered which has forever lessened my support of ATV access occured at Robb. There was some sort of rally and it seemed like 100's of quads were in the area trying to do as much damage as they could in one weekend (it was pretty wet at the time as well). If that wasn't bad enough i drove by the Embarrass River and it was full of guys washing their machines in the middle of the river. I'm sure the sediment, oil, and gas residue really benefits the fishery downstream.

I'd really like to see widespread regulation including designated trails, seasonal closures, and bridge requirements on many trout streams. It may just be Alberta now has too many quaders for unlimted access with all the oil money and growing population. I think something has to be done fairly soon as the damage gets worse every year, i look at the places i enjoyed in my childhood and they have really taken a beating due to over use, some areas are barely recognizable (Allison Creek, Racehorse Creek, Lynx Creek, etc). Quaders need somewhere to go but unlimited access is no longer a viable option.