Ghost River along the Trans Alta Road

[Puma]

It seems a little strange to me, they shut down pretty much all motorized access to this whole area due to environmental concerns.

Ok, I have spent 20+ years out there, lived in the area, and have seen the damage from some (minority) of quads/dirt bikes.

I was out bird hunting on the weekend and was horrified to see that they have clear cut thousands of acres of timber.

Not just one or two areas, pretty much the majority of land between the Enviros camp and the end of the road.

Is this just "time to harvest" the area, or to protect from Pine Beetles, or what?

With this one of the last wild areas in close proximety to a city of over a million people, why would they clear cut?

We hunted most of the day in differant areas, never saw a bird.

[The Elkster]

I witnessed the same thing and it got me to wondering big time. So we saved the area from quads so that we could clearcut it??? I'm not anti-logging nor for destructive quadding but it just seemed so odd. The clearcuts were much bigger than I've generally observed in AB. It saddens me to see the land in that state even though ultimately it will lead to the good game habitat. I have to say that I don't think I'm 100% for clearcutting after seeing the number of small trees that are left as scrap and could have been left standing and provided some anchor trees for the next generation.

Is logging really a viable industry in AB? I mean those trees must have been pretty old and yet I'd be surprised if they could get a couple 2X4's out of a log. Yearly growth rates are so slow here I really wonder.

[skain11]

20 years ago when I started bird hunting the Ghost area was where we always headed. It was not unsual to find coveys of half a dozen grouse. I havn't been in there for a few years and it now appears that there is nothing left there...It does seem like the areas for upland within an hour or two of Calgary are dwindiling...for a quick morning run for the dog I usually head west of Millarville, however there is lots of hunters there because of the proximity. For a less crowded hike and more birds we now head to the Bearberry area...

[TreeGuy]

Not just one or two areas, pretty much the majority of land between the Enviros camp and the end of the road.


Are you freakin' kidding me?? Puma, what do you mean by 'the end of the road'? The valley end, or the trunk road end? I'm guessing the valley end.

I haven't been in there this year, but wow! Hammer on the quads and the 4X4 guys, and then clear it. Who manages this area? I first started hunting in there about 10 years ago, and there used to be lots of game. Not any more. What a joke, that should result in people losing their jobs over the nightmare that has become the Ghost/Waiprous.:cry:

Tree:mad2:

[Puma]

Are you freakin' kidding me?? Puma, what do you mean by 'the end of the road'? The valley end, or the trunk road end? I'm guessing the valley end.

Tree:mad2:

Pretty much west to the hard rock face of the mountains.Devils Head.

Puma

[Cordur]

Yep. You wouldn't believe how much has been cut out there. There are still quite a few deer in the area but then a lot of them have been pushed farther back towards the river or across I think. They haven't even been at it for very long and it's a huge amount of cutting that has happened. I honestly never thought this area would end up like that after all of the restrictions they had put into place. I'm not sure I'll ever bother to go back there camping again to be honest. To my eyes the area will be about 30 - 40 years before the trees even get close to resembling some good woodland.

[Puma]

I participated in the Ghost Land Use Plan Survey where they asked questions like, what uses would you like to see, what should be allowed, what not.

Then the plan is released, motorized access is curtailed, two or three random camping areas are established. Increased policing is implemented on long weekends.

I guess the majority of the current users "go away".

Then the tree harvesters move in!

I think we have been fooled.

Puma

[50BMG]

I participated in the Ghost Land Use Plan Survey where they asked questions like, what uses would you like to see, what should be allowed, what not.

Then the plan is released, motorized access is curtailed, two or three random camping areas are established. Increased policing is implemented on long weekends.

I guess the majority of the current users "go away".

Then the tree harvesters move in!

I think we have been fooled.

Puma

Kinda what I was thinking http://www.blows.com/chat/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif

[lazy ike]

I've seen them cutting 5 different sights this year. Still lots of grouse and I saw 15 mulies last thursday.

[Warrior]

Would like to see some pics if anyone has any. I also drove through McLean on the Millarville road last week... Clearing that out as well. Pretty sad...

[The Elkster]

I know there were a few badly wind damaged areas out west that were logged/salvaged like near the trunk road and harold creek road intersection which is fine but I don't think that the Waiperous area that is being logged was damaged. I sure wish I had a picture or two as they would have spoken volumes....huge barren plots with the majestic rockies as a backdrop. Just didn't seem right at all especially considering the debates that have gone on the last few years about saving this area. For the amount and size of logs they get it seems like a total waste of what is a very limited resource in southern AB!

On the flip side they can protect it by making it into a Provincial Park and take more land away from hunters and other recreationists. dohhhhh!

[TreeGuy]

Pretty much west to the hard rock face of the mountains.Devils Head.

Puma

Thanks Puma. One more question that I barely have the heart to ask, but...... BOTH sides of the road past the Enviros turnoff?

Tree

[mini-moose]

I'm not a forester, but I think the forestry companies would have had to submit timber harvesting plans for the area. They are usuaually prepared quite a few years in advance of when they will actually log an area. So I'm guessing forestry would have known that this was going to take place some time ago.

[The Elkster]

Treeguy, it is logged on both sides of the road just before the road heads down to the river.

[TreeGuy]

Treeguy, it is logged on both sides of the road just before the road heads down to the river.

Thanks Elkster. Sounds like some pretty stupid 'Grand Scheme of Things', just out of school, macro-management through micro-management to me. There was no reason economically to take that piece of bush out. If it was feasible, what in the HOLY HELL are some of these oil company boys whining about? Unless of course that particular logging endeavour had government subsidization behind it!:huh:

Tree

[lazy ike]

Thanks Elkster. Sounds like some pretty stupid 'Grand Scheme of Things', just out of school, macro-management through micro-management to me. There was no reason economically to take that piece of bush out. If it was feasible, what in the HOLY HELL are some of these oil company boys whining about? Unless of course that particular logging endeavour had government subsidization behind it!:huh:

Tree

I was up there a little while ago and I thought it miglooked like a good place to get a mulie. On the 17th it was all heavy equipment and diesel engines. Today it looked like a moon scape. Personally i don't have a problem with logging but they sure picked a crappy time of the year to cut. Oh, I don't know who is doing the cutting but it would be a REAL GOOD IDEA to put the planters in blaze if they're working this weekend.

[TreeGuy]

Hey Ike, by the 17th, I'm gonna guess opening day. Obviously, as most could guess, I too am supportative of the logging industry. Managed wisely, logging is a great thing.

However, this 'hush-hush' business starting up during the opening of rifle season, has a DISTINCT odor about it!

I know that area is a bit of a plateau that offers fantastic views. Can you say 'Condo Development'???? Anyone wanna bet that within the next 10 years, the Trans-Alta road is paved with a fuc#ing Starbucks at the end of it?:mad3:

Tree:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: !!!!!!

[sheephunter]

Wow.....can you say conspiracy theorist?

The logging companies log throughout the year in areas with good access like the Ghost and save the more remote areas for later in the season when things freeze up. You want to live in houses, you need to cut trees. I'll guarantee the timing was totally coincidental. I'm also sure that the logging was done outside of the new Wildland Park in an area where OHVs are also still permitted.

[Cordur]

Well yes and no sheephunter. The area that is cut has restrictions on the types of vehicles. But there is more to it than that. They have add a huge amount of new road. I took a walk down some of it and one road that I walked for an hour and still didn't come near the end of it with trees piled on both sides. This isn't an area where there were large trees and most of what was there was very very old. I doubt any of us will be alive when that area has returned to a semblance of what it was.

I know you need wood to build houses. But why would you cut a tree down that would provide at most two 8' 2"X4"s and take 40 years to grow back? There are better areas for this that re-coup much faster. That and the fact of how hard they pushed the road closures to prevent further erosion of this beautiful area. It's really quite a shame. :cry:

[TreeGuy]

Wow.....can you say conspiracy theorist?

The logging companies log throughout the year in areas with good access like the Ghost and save the more remote areas for later in the season when things freeze up. You want to live in houses, you need to cut trees. I'll guarantee the timing was totally coincidental. I'm also sure that the logging was done outside of the new Wildland Park in an area where OHVs are also still permitted.

Sheep, the world needs conspiracy theorists. Forgive me for not trusting my government 100% of the time.

I, however will give you the 'coincidence' part. Fair enough. However, I will disagree with you in terms of access and freeze up. I've worked on a couple of logging operations, and the flotation tires on some of those harvesters are amazing. These multi-tonned vehicals can go where all quads can't. Freeze up is simply a benefit.

Of COURSE they're not going to clear cut in the 'Don Getty'! They are going to do it in the best bush hunting area in the place at the start of rifle season. Oh btw, from the bridge/BarC border, it holds much better timber combined with crappier hunting. Oh yeah, can't log that due to the gas line and pump station! Still a coincidence of course.

This fall, I travelled the 22 to Mayrthorpe, and then the 43 to GP. I have been up the forestry trunk as far as Ya-Ha-Tinda. My point is, that I have been through millions and millions of hectars of loggable wilderness, and they have to pick one of the most huntable sections of it to log (an hour away from Calgary) out on opening day in a contravercial area that they have been screaming environmental bloody murder about for years, only to moonscape it? No conspircy theory though.:rolleye2:

Tree

[TreeGuy]

Oh yeah. Cordur, they don't often take 2X4's out of such timber. The reason they like the lodge poles is due to their tall and straight consistancy that is realitively knot-free.

The logs are often just placed on a lathe type machine, and a type of band saw is applied to them as they spin, thus creating those very thin 'plys' that constitute plywood sheets. The remaining waste will get processed into 'pulp', which is the building block in terms of the creation of paper. (simplified description)

Tree

[sheephunter]

I, however will give you the 'coincidence' part. Fair enough. However, I will disagree with you in terms of access and freeze up. I've worked on a couple of logging operations, and the flotation tires on some of those harvesters are amazing. These multi-tonned vehicals can go where all quads can't. Freeze up is simply a benefit.


Tree, you do realize they haul those logs out of the bush right? They use trucks without flotation tires that do much better on frozen ground in remote areas.

You also realize that it's not the government logging right? It's private companies that make their own decisions as when to log their permit areas. And it's not one company but dozens of small companies that are basically confined to small geographic areas so there is bound to be some overlap with recreational users.

You also realize there are no plywood and pulp operations in this area right?

So how is the government involved in this anti hunting conspiracy again?

[lazy ike]

I suspect they started logging when they did, not becuase they wanted to screw up the hunting season, but becuase there would be less coors light swilling yahoos driving the roads. (I picked coors light becuase i hauled a cases worth of empties I found above the timber back to my truck.) This is my first year hunting this area so could someone tell me if the road stays open all year?

[sheephunter]

They don't plow the road to the end but most years there is enough traffic that it stays open all year.

[ABwhitetail]

There are some very valid reasons for the magnitude of logging in some areas right now....

The mountain pine beetle being one.....If the blocks you are seeing seem overly large, I would be willing to bet they could be in fact be action against this huge threat to Alberta's forests...

Sheep also said it....areas are logged based on seasonal access...and yes harvesting equipment can be very agile when working on soft ground...this equipment is designed to have as little impact on the ground when harvesting, not necessarily to get into "wet" areas to harvest....those "floatation tires" are designed to have a light footprint on the ground in order to do as little compaction as possible...and yes, tucks for bringing in the equipment and getting the logs out need dry or frozen access in order to do that....

I would agree the OHV access and logging operations timing is coincidental.

Plus, logging has a huge positive impact on game....it provides a unbelievable food source for all the ungulates in that area....the fresh shoots and grasses that will be present next spring will be like alfalfa fields to all the game in those areas...

The biggest issue with logging is increased access...road hunters gaining access to areas that would otherwise be impossible to access by truck....but this being said, forestry companies have a responsibility to reclaim those roads as soon as the wood has been removed....

Though I admit that I am sure the area is NOT as picturesque as before (I am personally not familiar with the area)....in terms of management and hunting....the impacts are far less negative then they seem......

[Huntnut]

I'm not a forester, but I think the forestry companies would have had to submit timber harvesting plans for the area. They are usuaually prepared quite a few years in advance of when they will actually log an area. So I'm guessing forestry would have known that this was going to take place some time ago.

Sometimes but not always. I used to work in forestry and there were a couple of times that areas were harvested a year after the plan was submitted/approved. Plus now the pine beetle has really thrown a monkey wrench into the harvesting plans and procedures.

[ElDiablo]

One of my favourite little Moose holes is now more of a field...... but unfortunatley that's progress, we all hafta live with it.

Still lots of chickens out there though, we did pretty well the other day.

[TreeGuy]

Alright, alright. I've calmed down and everyone has made valid points.

I was arguing from an 'emotional' perspective as most of my best hunting memories came from that area. First Alberta deer, first mulie, first wall-hanger, first grizz encounter (of many more to come), first cougar encounter, etc, etc. Plus, I did almost all of this alone. It was a very special place to me, and I'm going to miss it.:(

Tree

[ABwhitetail]

I hear where you are coming from tree guy, visually...logging isn't the most appetizing activity.....but trust me, though the scenery has changed.....there are still many good reasons to head back into that country and create more memories...

[sheephunter]

Ya...we are all often guilty of the "not in my backyard" syndrome but industrial activities ultimnately effect someone somewhere. Not sure I'd say the area is lost forever either. Proper logging practices often create new habitat and create new hunting opportunities. That area is virtually devoid of elk and who knows, this may create some great elk habitat.

[lazy ike]

Ya...we are all often guilty of the "not in my backyard" syndrome but industrial activities ultimnately effect someone somewhere. Not sure I'd say the area is lost forever either. Proper logging practices often create new habitat and create new hunting opportunities. That area is virtually devoid of elk and who knows, this may create some great elk habitat.

I actually came across a decent amount of Elk sign yesterday but could not locate them.

[sheephunter]

See...it's working already.....

But seriously, it's not necessarily all doom and gloom. Logging often takes the place of fire and is critical in creating habitat for large ungulates like elk. I have not seen an elk in the Ghost for a dozen years or more so it's good to hear there is some sign around.

[TreeGuy]

20 years ago when I first started hunting, it ment the choice of either walking out my back door, or my FRONT door. Slowly but surely it all got logged out, thus, I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder.

Sheep you are correct in regards to NIMBY. It's a big area, and to take an optimistic approach, maybe it'll serve as a bit of a visual deterrant to help reduce some of the traffic in the area. Also, what does anyone think about such an operation forcing some of those wolves back into Banff via Devil's Gap in search of happier hunting grounds? Thanks guys, I'm still unhappy, but I appreaciate the rationel.

Tree

[Puma]

A couple of comments from the responses to the thread,

1. You cant compare the effects of a forest fire to logging with the exception of clearing the landscape. A fire leaves behind ash (carbons) and unburnt material to compost creating organics and the heat scorches the earth burning and releasing seeds for regrowth.

2. The area is not devoid of Elk.I see Elk every year in this area.

3. I agree to being of the not in my back yard mentality.I feel there are more remote locations that may have been a better choice instead of one of the last wild areas in close proximity to a major city.

4. Do Mountain Pine Beetle also attack spruce? This seems to be the majority of the targeted harvest species.

5. I for one will think twice before hitting print so often at work.

6. What does Spray Lakes do with these smallish trees? A drive past their yard shows lifts of 2 X 4's and spray mulch products.

7. Yes, the new growth will be good for ungulates in time.

[ABwhitetail]

A couple of comments from the responses to the thread,

1. You cant compare the effects of a forest fire to logging with the exception of clearing the landscape. A fire leaves behind ash (carbons) and unburnt material to compost creating organics and the heat scorches the earth burning and releasing seeds for regrowth.

2. The area is not devoid of Elk.I see Elk every year in this area.

3. I agree to being of the not in my back yard mentality.I feel there are more remote locations that may have been a better choice instead of one of the last wild areas in close proximity to a major city.

4. Do Mountain Pine Beetle also attack spruce? This seems to be the majority of the targeted harvest species.

5. I for one will think twice before hitting print so often at work.

6. What does Spray Lakes do with these smallish trees? A drive past their yard shows lifts of 2 X 4's and spray mulch products.

7. Yes, the new growth will be good for ungulates in time.

Puma, I just thought I would respond to some of your comments:

#1 Actually todays forest management is designed to very closely mimic fire. Alot of the harvested tree (anything unmerchantable) stays in the block....commonly in the form of slash piles, these piles are burnt in the winter and the carbons leech back into the soil....mind you a fire is much better at distributing those nutrients evenly. In terms of the fire releasing seeds...this is also accomplished by by opening up the canopy (via logging) and having direct sun do the same....which also speeds up decomposition. Fire is definitely more efficient, but the attemp is being made to mimic it as much as possible...

#3 I hear what your saying and in most cases I beleive this is the practice..but in cases of attacking the progression of the pine beetle this activity close to cities can happen...

#4 No the mountain pine beetle only attacks pine...but will attack all species of pine...that being said there is always incidental wood (spruce and hardwood) that will be harvested.

#6 It doesn't take a very big tree to be merchantable....wood in a forest companies planning unit will obviously vary in size, and certain stands of timber will be harvested closer to the minimum than the maximum.

#7 Absolutley, but the time is very short...the block that my bull from this year was in was harvested just this past winter (only one sumer of growth)....check out the shoots in it...

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd154/abwhitetail/Chris2007Moose.jpg

I understand peoples concern when it comes to industry affecting there backyards....but I assure you it is not a case of carless practices wrecking these areas forever...

[sheephunter]

Well said whitetail!

[Unregistered user]

It is a forestry reserve which IMO is better than selling it off to the highest bidder. According to signs by Waiparous, the timber has a 70 year harvest cycle and the logs used to be run down the river to the mills, so at least these days it's a little easier on the fish. If trees aren't cut down, sooner or later they burn, so ya may as well make a buck or two.

[The Elkster]

Anyone care to elaborate on why most of the replants I've seen have been done with pine... I believe the beetle even has an affinity for smaller trees so to me this seems like a bad recipe for worsening the problem. Lets hope for an early and hard cold snap to knock them back.

[Puma]

ABwhitetail,

Thanks for your comments, and nice moose!

Puma

[Sporty]

Elkster

Pine is easy to grow which is why they usually replanted with pine, I spoke to a fellow that works at Weyerhaueser in GP and he said that of course they regret "placing their eggs in one basket" so to speak by replanting mainly with pine.

Pine beetles like older trees, I have a lodgepole pine in my yard and at one time it had a pine beetle in it. The city moniters all the pine trees in Grande Prairie now because the pine beetle has infected city trees, my tree was one of a few that were that escaped the pine beetle out of the infestations they found last year. They had to inspect my tree every 3 months for a year until they were certain that it didn't develop Blue Stain fungus or have another pine beetle infestation. Apparently the fungus works hand in hand with the beetle leading to the death of a pine tree. Luckily my tree was young and healthy and it pushed the beetle out.

Some interesting things the fellow educated me about concerning the pine beetle. They came across the mountains to AB from BC from strong west winds, apparently they surfed the winds ending up here. They have scouters and when those scouts find a great tree they emit some type of pheromone calling other pine beetles to that tree. What we need to get rid of them is a hard hitting cold season, when we have the type of weather that we are having now with warm days and nights only hitting the low minuses it allows the beetles to develop a type of antifreeze so they live through the -31 temps during mid winter. He also told me that the PB will in fact sometimes infest spruce trees but not often.

Incidentally there is an acreage subdivision near GP that is called The Pines because it was surrounded by many pines. Someone that lived there brought fire wood back from BC a few years ago and some of the wood was still carrying the PB and it of course infected the pines around this subdivision killing most of them off. The guy was fined big time and that is the reason why provincial govt's don't allow cross boarder trading and importing/exporting of firewood.