Possible OHV Compramise?

[TreeGuy]

I was just reading the 'Grizzly's in Peril' thread and I had this thought, but didn't want to hijack.

Would if, in some of these areas that are now closed to OHVs, you could purchase an additional 'tag' or permit with the rest of your tags that would allow the operation of an OHV in these areas strictly for hunting purposes during the applicable seasons? The money raised by these permits could be dedicated to either hiring more COs or repairing some of the more severly damaged areas. The off-roaders who really want to gain access to these areas would have to be hunting at the time or face fines. They would have to take all of the necessary steps in order to be licensed, thus pumping even more money back into the system. Hell, it might just add to our numbers. What do you guys think?

Tree

[sheephunter]

I doubt that it would ever fly but I like the idea. Special rights for hunters is something I doubt you'll ever see.

[FiveO]

Why doesnt the government put aside a portion of the annual registration of ATV'S to mantain and develop trail systems. Why register, what happens to the money currently collected, shouldnt go to roads as you cant use an ATV on roads?.

[sheephunter]

Actually thought about your suggestion some more and I'm not certain giving hunters special rights over responsible ATV users is fair...hmmm. Too bad when the actions of a few ruin it for all. And truthfully, I think if you read the recovery team's report, you see that it's increased motorized traffic that they want reduced. This is not a matter or responsible or irresponsible use. That's another issue related strictly to grizzly bears.

[TreeGuy]

OK, I see your point about special rights for hunter. I'm sure that the anti's would take much delight in showing OHV damage in 'Hunter Only Zones'. That's just asking for trouble. However, lets refine the idea a bit.

Would if 'seasons' were enacted within these public lands? Would if only a limited number of permits were issued per season (imitating our draw system)? Would if you could only apply for access to a limited number of zones per year? Hell, we all have to pay to get into our national parks.

That way we could at least generate some baseline statistics on useage, and at the same time know exactly who is using these areas. I understand reducing motorized activity and wildlife impact, but have a really hard time buying into it when areas are closed to OHVs and then promptly logged out or drilled.

I am not one am almost never in favour of MORE bueracracy, more user fees and more regulations, but the OHV group has thus far proven OURselves saddly inadequate in terms of responsible usage and 'self-policing'. More regulations are better than no access IMHO.

Tree

[FiveO]

Tree, you a member of an ATV CLUB?.

[Grizzly Adams]

My feeling is that the government is just grasping at straws to be seen doing something. This Grizzly problem is a lot bigger than a few ATVs roaring around them hills and there are a lot more disruptive forces out there, like logging and oil exploration. If they were to implement such a ban, they would effectively close most of the mountain and boral regions to off road use, since all of that is Grizzly habitat. Figure any WMU, where you're not allowed to bait black bears, as one that would be closed.
Grizz

[TreeGuy]

Tree, you a member of an ATV CLUB?.

Why? And what difference would it make anyway?

Tree

[TreeGuy]

Tree

[crazy_davey]

If you don't have the balls to express your opinions on this thread, then please stop PM'ing me.

I PMed you with a few polite suggestions of places to get involved and give your helping hand. Sorry you did not like them, but your ideas and many like them have been brought up for years and have been proposed to the powers that be many, many times. You would know that if you were involved personally, but you seem to voice your opinion on this subject by whining on a public forum board long after most of Albertas land access restriction plans have been in place for years.

If you have an idea that's better, let's hear it.

I personally know people who have easily spent over 20 years fighting to try and keep access open for vehicles and OHV's to "some" of Albertas back country for "responsible" users. What have you done to fight for access for responsible OHV users in Alberta Sean? Please fill me in, maybe you have spent much of your time and personal money fighting and donating to organizations that are working thier asses of in hopes of having some access to our great Alberta back country.

It's chicken sh*ts who refuse to publicly speak out that are resulting in these closures.

The only chicken sh!t that I see is the one who mouths off from behind his or her key board. If you feel so strongly about OHV access for responsible Albertans, get out from behind your computer and do something about it! Whining on a public forum will get you nowhere. Many years ago I thought it would, but trust me it doesn't.

The squeeky wheel gets the grease boys, start squeeking or shut the fuc..............

Many people have been "squeeking" for years. Not doing so on a public hunting forum but in person with people who have the influence to make change. Were you there or did you have any part in making your voice heard publicly Sean?

Public forums are a great place to chat with others about topics that interest us and have fun at the same time. They are never going to be a great place to try and get our point across to the guys and gals that have the power to make change.

Sean, I thought you and I were having a respectable adult conversation by PM. I guess you think that a ****ing match in public is more effective :huh:. All that does is separate us as outdoorsmen once again. United we stand, divided we fall....

By all means, lets go....

[crazy_davey]

BTW Tree, you mentioned in one of your PM's that you actually belonged to an organization or club and that this comment was only made to stir the pot so to speak:

Why? And what difference would it make anyway?

Tree

So what club or organization exactly do you and your family belong to? What are the names of its executive members? And what has your club done to help fight against the access restrictions so many responsible OHV users face in Alberta?

[FiveO]

Why? And what difference would it make anyway?

Tree

Like you said the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Strength in numbers when looking for government support, funding, etc. If you dont belong or attend the meeting you are not doing any good throwing ideas at the wind trust me.

Tree what kind of Tree are you? your acting alot like a crab Tree, real nice attitude and language chill out.

[Grizzly Adams]

Com on guys, quit your scrapping. Given that the general Public has a dim view of Offroaders to begin with and the political climate surrounding Grizzlies, this one may be unwinnable. It offers the government a good reason to restrict OHVs , while appearing to do something concrete, without offending anyone who really matters, like the oil and lumber interests.
Grizz

[TheClash]

I was just reading the 'Grizzly's in Peril' thread and I had this thought, but didn't want to hijack.

Would if, in some of these areas that are now closed to OHVs, you could purchase an additional 'tag' or permit with the rest of your tags that would allow the operation of an OHV in these areas strictly for hunting purposes during the applicable seasons? The money raised by these permits could be dedicated to either hiring more COs or repairing some of the more severly damaged areas. The off-roaders who really want to gain access to these areas would have to be hunting at the time or face fines. They would have to take all of the necessary steps in order to be licensed, thus pumping even more money back into the system. Hell, it might just add to our numbers. What do you guys think?

Tree
on the surface it may sound feasible...but...that means more forms, more money and more regulations..which means more people to police such actions and to make sure those using ohv's in a regulated area are there allowed to do so. which means more govt. regulation in our lives.

i personally subscribe to " a time and a season for all things" i do think that we should have areas that are open to all and all activities..but i also see the wisdom and purpose in having areas that are restricted as well.

for now alberta is huge and wide open. there are areas all over to find and explore.

just my .02 cents...

[TreeGuy]

Why? And what difference would it make anyway?

Tree

Sorry guys if you didn't pick up on the sarcasm there (shoulda used an emoticon). If I were to honestly believe a comment like that, I'd be dumber than the proverbial 'sack of hammers'!

As for the second post it was posted angrily, looking to get a rise, Dave, and was not directed at your PM. I have since edited it out to remove any further confusion.

Not really trying to pick a fight (stir the pot, of course), just interested in any pro-active ideas about a very touchy subject. I could have handled it better.

Tree

[JohninAB]

If I may so boldly venture into this topic. When they discuss roads etc they mean resource roads and should they block them off to public access to help prevent bear mortality from vehicle encounters, poachers etc. Nothing to do with OHV. Resource roads are usually covered by a Licence of occupation and as such are basically private and the owners of the road can ask you to leave and if you choose not to they can have you charged with trespassing.

OHV are a whole different kettle of fish. Ever see the mess these things make at their quad rallies? Streams and riparian areas totallied destroyed. Critical fish spawning habitat covered in silt. Muskeg rutted to no end. Other than closing off areas totally to them there is not much good in trying to develop a trail system as people tend to use the trail for a bit and then boldly go where ever they please. This is a proven fact. Parks have known this for ages with walking trails through critical and sensitive habitats.

Ever see Gord Stenhouses presentation of the grizzly bear research he did using GPS collars and tracking every 20 minutes where the bear was and how the tried to avoid roads or how far they moved. It is an awesome presentation if you ever get a chance to see it.

And just so I leave no one out, there is even concerns with horses going back into some of these wilderness areas because of the noxious weeds they carry in with them. Just reporting the facts people.

[crazy_davey]

Sorry Treeguy! When I had just spent quite sometime writing you a PM about a subject that I thought you and I were having a civil conversation about, I hit send, came here and saw your post I assumed it was aimed directly towards me.

Maybe it was or maybe it wasn't, I understand your frustration and I do agree with almost 100% of what we were talking about by PM as you probably saw. The reason why I saw fit to PM you is because these topics can easily get out of hand. I have seen it since the first forum board I visited regarding these issues about ten years ago(maybe longer :confused: ).

:cool:

"DON'T BUGGER THE BUSH,
BE ENVIRONMENTALLY CONSCIOUS"

[TreeGuy]

No worries Dave. Totally my fault. A contentious and divisive issue for sure that I should have handled with a bit more tact.

Tree

[Doc Holiday]

Not really trying to pick a fight (stir the pot, of course),
Tree[/QUOTE]

But, you started it... so....yes you did. THEN.. reverted to somewhat FUC... antics.....remember that CRAB TREE?? Back off a littlle pal... you really do jump on people, without facts?

[Nationwide]

But, you started it... so....yes you did. THEN.. reverted to somewhat FUC... antics.....remember that CRAB TREE?? Back off a littlle pal... you really do jump on people, without facts? treeguy is not trying to stir the pot he is just mis understood .:cool: :rolleyes:

[WILDTV]

Hoooo....I know this topic well. I'm one of the guys that Dave's speaking about that's been in the land access fight for many many years...I think about 15 if I'm not mistaken. Dave's been involved for a long time as well which is why he got his hackles up a bit when this topic came out on here.

It's been interesting watching the "government" of Alberta chipping away at all motorized access in the province for everyone. Don Getty park was an interesting one. Slipped in under the radar with no public consultation whatsoever!

I could go on and on about this...but I wanted to address Tree's comment at the start and some of the suggestions that have come up in here.

1. Special Tag for OHV use: While this is a good idea Tree, this will never happen. Many federal and provincial organizations have tried to do this, not by just benefiting 1 user group, but as "Canadians"...the govt. will not do it. If something like this was implemented...they want the $$ to go into the black hole and they'll disburse as they see fit. That's the problem...the monies you would spend for such a license would not help with enforcement, would not help the areas that you love and spend your time in the outdoors and would most likely be distributed to the very same groups that are trying to stop hunting and stop atv / ohv access in the form of environmental govornment grants. <------<< look into this one...what you find there will amaze and anger you beyond your wildest dreams!

2. Special Seasons and Permits: Unfortunately, when you loose access...you won't lose it for certain times of year and gain it for others...it's gone...never to be seen again. Case in point - Kananaskis. South Ghost - Both areas are gone and done...South Ghost has a little bit of motorized access left, but it's such a tiny tiny sliver of what used to be there. In South Ghost, they closed over 80% of the trails based on no science, but on the opinion of a few choice fools that are heads of govt. in that particular department.

3. More regulations are better than no access IMHO.: It's not more regulations that are needed...it's enforcement of the ones that are already in place and have been since 1988. When they enacted GAMP, they put many new laws and regulations in place (on top of what has been there for many many years which they couldn't enforce) and expect a skeleton crew of hard working CO's to police and enforce. They didn't have the man power to enforce the laws from 1988.

4. My fingers are getting tired...I hate typing...

5. With the clubs question and organizations: There are a large number of organizations that fight for access not only for hunters but for OHV enthusiasts as well. The recently assembled AOC (Alberta Outdoors Coalition) is comprised of Alberta Off Highway Vehicle Association (AOHVA), Alberta Trappers Association (ATA), Alberta Fish and Game Association (AFGA), Alberta Snowmobile Association (ASA), Alberta Bowhunters Association (ABA) and Alberta Professional Outfitters Society (APOS), Willmore Wilderness Foundation (WWF), Alberta Outfitters Association (AOA) and Foundation for North American Wild Sheep – Alberta Chapter (FNAWS). All of these groups are working together to keep access for all users...Hunting/Fishing/Motorized and more...

There are many ways for you, as enthusiasts to get involved and help keep the access that you've enjoyed for many years and that's by helping the groups that are fighting for you. Volunteer some time to them...call them and ask them what you can do to help...they always need more hands!