Annealing brass - worthwhile?

[gitrdun]

After 4 firing of my RP brass in 270WSM, I noticed some longitudinal cracks on some of the necks. As I queried others and did a bit of research, the concensus was the it had been work hardened and became hard. I decided to experiment with annealing.

I set up in my garage using a propane torch. Chucked the brass in a cordless drill and spun it at approx 100 or so RPM. Bringing the tip of the flame almost in contact with the neck, it took approx. 5 - 7 seconds to bring the neck to start changing colour to a dull red. I had the lights off to work in the dark with only a small light in the distance just so that I could see well enough to handle the brass. Once the dull red colour was achieved, I dumped them into cold water. The result was a discoloration of the neck and shoulder to a golden, brown colour, but not blue like that which you see on new Lapua brass. The necks were much softer as I could squeeze them with only finger pressure. The body seemed to be unchanged. Now, I didn't have a temp stick on hand as it was sunday. It's just an experiment for now, but I'm still wondering if I'm on the right track and if this brass would be safe to fire. Any comments or suggestions?

[catnthehat]

[QUOTE=gitrdun;824539]After 4 firing of my RP brass in 270WSM, I noticed some longitudinal cracks on some of the necks. As I queried others and did a bit of research, the concensus was the it had been work hardened and became hard. I decided to experiment with annealing.

I set up in my garage using a propane torch. Chucked the brass in a cordless drill and spun it at approx 100 or so RPM. Bringing the tip of the flame almost in contact with the neck, it took approx. 5 - 7 seconds to bring the neck to start changing colour to a dull red. I had the lights off to work in the dark with only a small light in the distance just so that I could see well enough to handle the brass. Once the dull red colour was achieved, I dumped them into cold water. The result was a discoloration of the neck and shoulder to a golden, brown colour, but not blue like that which you see on new Lapua brass. The necks were much softer as I could squeeze them with only finger pressure. The body seemed to be unchanged. Now, I didn't have a temp stick on hand as it was sunday. It's just an experiment for now, but I'm still wondering if I'm on the right track and if this brass would be safe to fire. Any comments or suggestions?[/QUOTE
When I anneal, I hold the csaee in my fibgers and turn it until the case gets too hot to hold, that's it!:)
My 6.5 and 300 WSM brass lasted a lot longer like that....
Cat

[gitrdun]

Thanks Cat, this is were I took my instructions from:

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Seeing that I waited until the neck was a dull red and that I got a blister on the end of my thumb from the body trying to remove one that was stuck in the chuck, I'm thinking that I may have over-annealed. No worries, I'll discard these as over-annealing is worse than under annealing according to the above article. I thaught about the method of putting the brass in a pan filled with water to keep the body cool. But, the problem that I see with that would be the flame pressure knocking them prematurely in the water and also not getting a good all around temp on the full perimeter of the neck, which is why I decided to spin them. Any other comments or suggestions greatly appreciated.

[Grizzly Adams]

Thanks Cat, this is were I took my instructions from:

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Seeing that I waited until the neck was a dull red and that I got a blister on the end of my thumb from the body trying to remove one that was stuck in the chuck, I'm thinking that I may have over-annealed. No worries, I'll discard these as over-annealing is worse than under annealing according to the above article. I thaught about the method of putting the brass in a pan filled with water to keep the body cool. But, the problem that I see with that would be the flame pressure knocking them prematurely in the water and also not getting a good all around temp on the full perimeter of the neck, which is why I decided to spin them. Any other comments or suggestions greatly appreciated.

Your source quotes Naramore, but doesn't mention the FIRST sentence in the chapter.:D

"I do not recommend that anyone reloading any standard sporting or military cartridges should anneal them in any way"

His suggested techniques come with reservations and apply primarily to Wildcats.

Grizz

[6.5x47 lapua]

the wsm cases are a good example of cases that benefit from annealing at certain intervals.problem is hitting the perfect temp and not going too hot and overannealing. its damn tough to do.art alphin of "A square" was an advocater of annealing and wrote a good article in his a square book on the subject.quite a few world class shooters anneal after every firing of their brass.it may be unnessesary in hunting rifles only for the reason they are not shot as much as target rifles but the wsms seem to work harden quicker than other cases for whatever reason;possibly case configuration.the wssms seem to be even worse from what i have seen.

[Bushrat]

Neck splits are also a function of how much they expand into the neck portion of the chamber when fired. If they are expanding into a large chamber neck and then have to be sized down a lot to re seat the bullet then they may not last long. I can get up to 15 or so loadings on my 270 WSM brass, no annealing, but it is hardly moving between sized and fired. Brass from my rifle when sized down ready to have bullets seated the inside neck measures .275, outside .310" after firing it measures .279 inside and .314 outside. That means it only expands .004" between sizing and firing, not much work hardening happening there. Most chambers have looser necks and most dies size it down smaller causing much more movement of the brass and accelerated work hardening of the necks causing neck splits much sooner.

Measure your sized necks and compare it to fired necks and see how much difference between them, if it is more than .006 then your brass will not last many loadings. Also if your using a conventional die with an expander ball then the necks are being sized even smaller in the die then re-expanded when the expander ball is drawn back through the neck causing even more work hardening and shorter life.

[fatrack]

You might consider neck sizing to prolong your brass life, works well for me.

[tkhiebs]

I am no expert on if you should anneal or not. But I do know that you are heating them way to much. Just heat until they slightly turn that blueish color, should take a couple of seconds.

[catnthehat]

You might consider neck sizing to prolong your brass life, works well for me.

Neck sizing as a rule does not do well with the WSM cases because of their thickness, most guys get better results with almost or total FL sizing.
Cat

[6.5x47 lapua]

Neck sizing as a rule does not do well with the WSM cases because of their thickness, most guys get better results with almost or total FL sizing.
Cat

thats what i have found too.bumping the shoulder back so that you can chamber a round.

[flipper62]

I anneal my cases after 2 resizings, and only partial lenght resize.
I have a batch of test brass for my 300 win mag that have been resized 7 times and show no signs of cracking or thinning at the web.

Get yourself a temperature stick or some paste, 475 degrees F is what your are looking for. Annealing the neck/shoulder area is fine just keep the temperature from migrating down the case to far.
Hornady sells a kit on their website as well.

Good luck
Phil

[gitrdun]

I know for a fact that I've over-annealed as attested by the blister on my thumb. I'm out of town, so I can't check my records, but if I recall correctly, I'm not reducing more than 6 thou on the neck, but a collet die might be in order. I've also adjusted my die to just push the shoulder back a bit. The brass that I annealed won't be re-used until I can absolutely ensure that my temp is correct and that the body has remained untouched. Thanks for the input so far.

[gitrdun]

You might consider neck sizing to prolong your brass life, works well for me.

Neck sizing wouldn't work, because the problem area is the neck. Thanks though.

[Grizzly Adams]

the wsm cases are a good example of cases that benefit from annealing at certain intervals.problem is hitting the perfect temp and not going too hot and overannealing. its damn tough to do.art alphin of "A square" was an advocater of annealing and wrote a good article in his a square book on the subject.quite a few world class shooters anneal after every firing of their brass.it may be unnessesary in hunting rifles only for the reason they are not shot as much as target rifles but the wsms seem to work harden quicker than other cases for whatever reason;possibly case configuration.the wssms seem to be even worse from what i have seen.

I could see a work hardening problem here, necking those fat cases down, in the manufacturing process, so I would expect the manufacturer to anneal them, unless of course they weren't considering re-loading.:confused:

Grizz

[gitrdun]

I could see a work hardening problem here, necking those fat cases down, in the manufacturing process, so I would expect the manufacturer to anneal them, unless of course they weren't considering re-loading.:confused:

Grizz

Not upon initial manufacturing, but certainly work hardening does occur after several re-sizing. The main stream N.A. manufacturers don't anneal as can be seen by the lack of colouration in their necks. Lapua does, but that added quality is reflected in the price. So if you expect the manufacturers to do it, then expect to pay for it....or as an alternative, you can do it yourself.

[gitrdun]

I anneal my cases after 2 resizings, and only partial lenght resize.
I have a batch of test brass for my 300 win mag that have been resized 7 times and show no signs of cracking or thinning at the web.

Get yourself a temperature stick or some paste, 475 degrees F is what your are looking for. Annealing the neck/shoulder area is fine just keep the temperature from migrating down the case to far.
Hornady sells a kit on their website as well.

Good luck
Phil

Hey Phil, thanks for your input, but are you sure about that 475 F.? According to a couple of articles that I just read, one from 24hr Campfire and one from 6mmBR, it appears that 475 won't even come close, they state that 660 F needs to be reached in order to get the blue discoloration and proper anneal temp.

Here's one of them:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/annealing.html

[Dmay]

475 degree tempilaq is supplied with the kit.....their instructions are to achieve that temp down below the shoulder, assuming that the neck will be up to proper annealing temp by then.
Doesn't seem too precise to me, however, I have used their method for years on some 50 BMG brass, which I anneal every reload, and so far it has worked well......

[wolf308]

i just tried it out too for the 300 H&H (gotta keep the brass life on that as high as i can), i used the brass in a water pan trick and i think i got a good feel for the right amount of heat, so from what i read i think you put too much heat on it too. i just got the neck starting to glow a bit or just about to glow then tipped it into the water. tried it out on a batch of my 308s too to keep seperate and note any differences, dunnno if this helped you and i dont know anything about my annealing yet to give you any serious advice, so cheers

[gitrdun]

A 300H&H...you lucky bugger, especially if it's a pre-64 Winnie. This month's reloader mag has an article about the 300 H&H, they refer to it as "ultra-cool", you might be interested. Anyhow, I know for a fact that I over annealed my cases, but I was purposely experimenting with brass that I intended to dispose of, have no intention of firing it. I think that if you saw a colour change (red), you may have gotten yours a touch too hot also. I'd load them up mild if you intend to fire them. I personally wouldn't experiment with the 300 H&H brass but try brass with better availability. A temp stick is the way to go and, I have access to an infrared camera, that'll tell me whether the temp stick is accurate enough.

[hardy]

You guys using the temp sticks, do you get a dark smudge on your brass after it melts on the case? I was annealing 300wsm brass and this was happening but i havent chucked them in my tumbler to see if it comes off.

[catnthehat]

I could see a work hardening problem here, necking those fat cases down, in the manufacturing process, so I would expect the manufacturer to anneal them, unless of course they weren't considering re-loading.:confused: Grizz
Many years ago I asked a company rep. about the annealed necks on some European ammo, anmd asked why North American brass was not annealed.

He told me that it was in fact annealed several times in the manufacturing process, just that many European companies did not wash and polish the brass in the final stage , but left the necks "as is" .
So yes, all brass is annealed during its manufacturing process , because it it weren't, the work hardening that results would not allow it to be made.
Cat

[wolf308]

hey gitrdun,no im getting a custom rifle put together, gonna try to make a classic looking target rifle in 300 H&H. custom barrel 26"(rem 700 varmint sized) with a gain twist,bought a rem 700 cdl left handed for the action and my stock is being made in the states by richard microfit(i think), stock is a marksman style brown-brown laminate. yeah i got the magazine, seen the H&H on the cover and bought it. am gonna use h4831sc powder with berger 210 vld bullets,rem brass and win mag primers to start. hoping its a winning combo and sink milk jugs at 1500 yards with that puppy. there was a 300 H&H remington 721 fom 1955 at the last auction in red deer it went for $1000. was in nice shape but the stock was boring/almost ugly/plain. i sent my cousin in to get it for me but told him a $950 limit. i just like the way the 300 H&H looks, and i wanted something rather uniqe,prob not too many left handed 300 h&h around in a target configuration.

[dgl1948]

Just a thought, for reading the temp on brass. I use one of those infared thermometers on a different application but they are fast and easy to u

[Jeromeo]

Here's a great video I found on annealing brass. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgD5D0Wzu-c&feature=related
He uses a socket to put the brass into and then simply tips it into the water and it falls out. That way you don't need to touch the brass. I only heat until there is a blue colour.

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

years ago, I bought Ken Howell's book.
I have found his writing to be very straight forward and comprehensive.

but the one thing I have NEVER read is what is the consequence of an overannealed neck.

All I ever hear is "it is ruined if brought to a glow". but no where have I seen or read Why a soft neck would be a problem. In fact, I can see where it can be of benefit.

Also, the "Lead Dipping" annealing has be so criticized, and yet, in my limited thinking ability, it would seem that if you have your lead at the right temp, and use your fingers or a TempStick mark as a guide, you should be able to get very consistant results, and do so while safely protecting the base.

and one other thought: I have read where a BR guy down south, (name escapes me, or where I read it) boils his brass after EVERY fireing. He swears he sees more consistant results.

Oh, Gitirdun: does your rifle have an extra large chamber neck, or is that common to have WSM chambers with overly large necks? Perhaps an old Military man designed it?

[Cowtown guy]

So here's my question to all of this. If a guy chickens out and under anneals for safety's sake, is there a point? Is some amount of heat applied doing anything or not? I have played around with this before but have never been brave enough to reload a case I have annealed for fear that I did it wrong.

[gitrdun]

I wouldn't say chicken nor fear Darryl, but prudent enough to realize that neither you nor I have reached a level of confidence that allows us to fire the brass. For my part, I have a lot of sacrificial brass and more on the way to allow me enough practise to eventually have the confidence to fire the brass that I've annealed to perfection.

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

I wouldn't say chicken nor fear Darryl, but prudent enough to realize that neither you nor I have reached a level of confidence that allows us to fire the brass. For my part, I have a lot of sacrificial brass and more on the way to allow me enough practise to eventually have the confidence to fire the brass that I've annealed to perfection.


I am kind of chicken when it comes to the unknowns. :)

but I still wonder, what can go wrong with an over annealed neck?

can the shoulder blow out and release gas? my initial thinking is no, it can't.

an annealed base I can see causing problems.

I am trying to understand what the issues are.

[catnthehat]

I am kind of chicken when it comes to the unknowns. :)

but I still wonder, what can go wrong with an over annealed neck?

can the shoulder blow out and release gas? my initial thinking is no, it can't.

an annealed base I can see causing problems.

I am trying to understand what the issues are.
Unless the case is too long it will crack if the annealing is wrong.if the case is very long, it will break out, but the gun will not "let go".
Cat

[gitrdun]

Some people are more adventurous then others when dealing with firearms and ammunition. Heck, I mounted scope for people and even sighted in rifles, did my own trigger work on Rugers and Savages. Not to say that there is anything wrong with people who are not adventurous in that field, on the contrary, recognizing their own limitations is a very good thing. In the research that I've done in regards to annealing methods and correct temperature, I've not read or heard of failures with damage to the firearm or injury. I do plan on threading lightly and experimenting with a lot of brass before loading and chambering such a round. This thread will probably die by the time I'm done, but I'll post my results.

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

I have always believed there is a place for a soft neck when using cast bullets and very light loads to provide a seal. it would alllow using slower powders for a more gentle push, while keeping one out of the SEE risks often referred to with slower rifle powders

a sooty neck/upper body seems to be common with some light loads, and this might help with that