Aperture (peep)sights

[Rem - P14]

Peep sights have always been a bit of a mystery to me as there doesn't seem to be any "solid" point of reference in the aperture for the front sight. All that being so, the old bolt rifles of the first and second world wars have always been very intriguing to me and I decided to attempt learning to use them. I am very fortunate to have in my possession a Remington P-14 .303 that was made in 1917 with micro adjust Parker Hale sights (circa 1935). My rifle is sporterized and some would say it is therefore ruined but I am very pleased with the way it began to shoot once I understood how your eye would just naturally find the centre of the aperture if you simply allowed it to happen rather than second-guessing yourself.
Does anyone else have anything to say regarding peeps? I realize they are still being used in some shooting disciplines so I guess I am talking to those of you who simply have a taste or maybe even a preference for them. There was one happy day my 94 year old war-horse turned in an 1 1/2 inch group of three at one hundred yards. That was with an ammature squeezing the trigger!

[PoppaW]

Good shootin. I just built my first custom rifle and it has peep sights. A bit bigger in the rear aperture than some but still very nice to shoot. It seems very natural.

[catnthehat]

Peep sights have always been a bit of a mystery to me as there doesn't seem to be any "solid" point of reference in the aperture for the front sight. All that being so, the old bolt rifles of the first and second world wars have always been very intriguing to me and I decided to attempt learning to use them. I am very fortunate to have in my possession a Remington P-14 .303 that was made in 1917 with micro adjust Parker Hale sights (circa 1935). My rifle is sporterized and some would say it is therefore ruined but I am very pleased with the way it began to shoot once I understood how your eye would just naturally find the centre of the aperture if you simply allowed it to happen rather than second-guessing yourself.
Does anyone else have anything to say regarding peeps? I realize they are still being used in some shooting disciplines so I guess I am talking to those of you who simply have a taste or maybe even a preference for them. There was one happy day my 94 year old war-horse turned in an 1 1/2 inch group of three at one hundred yards. That was with an ammature squeezing the trigger!

I shoot iron sighted rifles in both small bore and full bore, but have not shot competitively for a few years now.
They are, to my mind the ultimate zen style of shooting , because you MUST become one with the rifle once you are strapped into the gun with a jacket and single point sling !:>)

I have a very hard time figuring out a better feeling knowing that once the fundamentals of slinging up, looking at the target not the sights, experiencing just how precise automatic alignment is and how it affects shot placement , getting that "perfect " trigger break and knowing full well that after follow through , without looking spotting scope that your last shot was a Bull.
Be it at 50 meters with a small bore match rifle or 900 with a Palma gun, the feeling never gets old!!!=>)
Cat

[Rem - P14]

Thanks Poppaw:
I have looked through a few samples of peeps before and I believe the Parker Hale model 5B on my .303 places me at an advantage over some I saw. They are micro-adjust and the aperture itself is adjustable. I am still young enough to be somewhat in awe at the technology that was already available in 1935. Kind of naive of me I know.

[mudbug]

When it comes to open sight shooting they've been one of my favorites :sHa_shakeshout:

[Rem - P14]

Catnthehat:
I think you nailed the feeling very well. As for becoming "one with the rifle" the closest previous feeling I had was when I gave up on my compound bow and went back to a recurve without sights and drilled myself until I could (sometimes) make the arrow go directly to the spot where I was looking. I think Jack Kempf of Sherwood Park archery who made that bow for me deserved much of the credit.
Thank-you very much for your very descriptive answer to my original post. It is easy to tell you speak from experience. I shoot with a scope now but the .303 will be allowed to stretch its legs every now and then you can be sure.

[catnthehat]

One of my favourite hunting rifles, although I no longer own it!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/catnthehat/ruger7x57.jpg
here is, without dispute, the winningest small bore match rifle ever made - the famous Anschutz Super Match!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/catnthehat/anschutzsupermatch004.jpg
Here's some long range fun!
The target is the little white spot at the bottom of the black cliff, 1,000 meters away - it is a4'X5' piece of plate steel! there is a 20" circle on it, and a 10" circle .
Rifle is a Omark/Sportco M44 match rifle with Central peep sights
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/catnthehat/settingupforthe1K.jpg
Cat

[KegRiver]

Peep sights are a mystery to many people. The problem is you do not use Peep sights like you would a traditional iron sight in that you do not line up the front and rear sights.

The way to use a Peep sight is to acquire the front sight through the rear aperture, then forget that the rear sight exists. Focus entirely on the front sight and the target. At this point a most amazing thing happens, your eye will automatically center your vision at the precise center of the rear aperture with precision far beyond what you can intentionally achieve.
For this reason Peep sights are said to be most accurate sight system ever invented. I read somewhere that Double Peep sights were at one time, the sight of choice for competition shooters because of this.

It take some practice to get used to, but I found that in the end Peep sights are faster to get on target with, give a better view of the target, and I can hit better with a Peep then any other sight I have tried.

[Mxyzptik]

One of my favourite hunting rifles, although I no longer own it!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/catnthehat/ruger7x57.jpg
here is, without dispute, the winningest small bore match rifle ever made - the famous Anschutz Super Match!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/catnthehat/anschutzsupermatch004.jpg
Here's some long range fun!
The target is the little white spot at the bottom of the black cliff, 1,000 meters away - it is a4'X5' piece of plate steel! there is a 20" circle on it, and a 10" circle .
Rifle is a Omark/Sportco M44 match rifle with Central peep sights
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/catnthehat/settingupforthe1K.jpg


Cat


Cat, what peep did you have on the RSI ? I have that exact rifle in a 7x 57 and might want to put one on it ?

[KegRiver]

You didn't mention it, so I wonder, were you aware that your P14 is in fact a P14 Enfield, and it was designed for the British military to counter the Mauser rifles in use at the beginning of WW2? It is in fact, a modified Mauser action chambered for the .303 British Cartridge.
The British were to busy building Lee Enfields to be able to build enough P14s for effective use so they contracted with US companies to produce them.
Some of those American built P14s were converted to 30-06 for use in the US army and those rifles were designated P17.

Just a bit of trivia I though you might find interesting, if you did not already know it.

I learned all that after I bought a P17 back in the 70s and went looking to find out more about my "new" gun.

It was a wonderfully accurate rifle. Built to take a beating and then some. It was build as strong as any rifle I have ever seen. But it weighed a ton and cranked like a model T Ford.

[catnthehat]

The peep sight on the RSI is an NECG, a pretty nice piece of work actually!
Cat

[catnthehat]

Catnthehat:
I think you nailed the feeling very well. As for becoming "one with the rifle" the closest previous feeling I had was when I gave up on my compound bow and went back to a recurve without sights and drilled myself until I could (sometimes) make the arrow go directly to the spot where I was looking. I think Jack Kempf of Sherwood Park archery who made that bow for me deserved much of the credit.
Thank-you very much for your very descriptive answer to my original post. It is easy to tell you speak from experience. I shoot with a scope now but the .303 will be allowed to stretch its legs every now and then you can be sure.
HA HA!! I also shoot one of Jack's flat bows!
jack and i have had many great conversations over the years, and I had him build a Freestyle bow for my father that is a super accurate piece of equipment!
Cat

[Deer Hunter]

I have a Slidin Lyman peep on a Winchester Lever. It is suprisingly accurate over the plain buckhorn due to the distance between the rear sight and front sight being considerably greater. The army figured this out too as most late model 1903's and enfields were equipped with aperature sights as well.

[LiegeRiver]

I put an aperture sight on my Mod 94, 32 Spl. No problem shooting 1 1/2 - 2" groups at 100 yards, if I do my part. Also shot with them for years, in Service rifle, here at Connaught Ranges,Ottawa, in Bisley,England, the US. Always enjoyed it. Did really well, too, with the FNC1 and the first draft of the C7.

Gord

[oldgutpile]

Used to have a browning remake of the old model 71 in .348 win. that I mounted a peep on. Fantastic bush gun. The peep is very fast for aquiring your target when you get used to it. No problem getting those 1-2 in. groups at 100 yds.
As I get older, I find that I am having a more difficult time with the peep. I can either focus on the target or the bead, but both at the same time....

[Grizzly Adams]

Peep sights are a mystery to many people. The problem is you do not use Peep sights like you would a traditional iron sight in that you do not line up the front and rear sights.

The way to use a Peep sight is to acquire the front sight through the rear aperture, then forget that the rear sight exists. Focus entirely on the front sight and the target. At this point a most amazing thing happens, your eye will automatically center your vision at the precise center of the rear aperture with precision far beyond what you can intentionally achieve.
For this reason Peep sights are said to be most accurate sight system ever invented. I read somewhere that Double Peep sights were at one time, the sight of choice for competition shooters because of this.

It take some practice to get used to, but I found that in the end Peep sights are faster to get on target with, give a better view of the target, and I can hit better with a Peep then any other sight I have tried.

That's why us guys with older eyes like em.:lol: Only the front sight and target to focus on.

Grizz

[Grizzly Adams]

You didn't mention it, so I wonder, were you aware that your P14 is in fact a P14 Enfield, and it was designed for the British military to counter the Mauser rifles in use at the beginning of WW2? It is in fact, a modified Mauser action chambered for the .303 British Cartridge.
The British were to busy building Lee Enfields to be able to build enough P14s for effective use so they contracted with US companies to produce them.
Some of those American built P14s were converted to 30-06 for use in the US army and those rifles were designated P17.

Just a bit of trivia I though you might find interesting, if you did not already know it.

I learned all that after I bought a P17 back in the 70s and went looking to find out more about my "new" gun.

It was a wonderfully accurate rifle. Built to take a beating and then some. It was build as strong as any rifle I have ever seen. But it weighed a ton and cranked like a model T Ford.

Good story. Wrong war.:lol:

Grizz

[Rem - P14]

Thank-you KegRiver:
My experiences so far indicate your claim is credible. There is that certain feeling that seems to come with allowing the front sight to lead your eye that really appeals to me now. Even if they did not have the potential for wonderful accuracy, I would still enjoy using them.
I think back to instinctive shooting with a sightless recurve bow and I remember a claim I heard one time that it can take a lifetime to become proficient. Still, I bet the masters of such archery equipment would consider their lifetime well spent wouldn't they?

[hornhead]

reciever sights and / or target sights are addictive... extremely addictive.

i have been known to buy rcvr/tgt sights for no other reason than to marvel at their engineering as i had no rifles to put them on.

the only cure is to buy said rifles.

NOT a cost effective remedy. but intoxicating... like a search for the grail...

i had a target sight in a box for years , then i found out it was for a winchester 52B,C,D whatever.

have you priced out a winchester 52? so i got one, 52B, and it came with target sights... so i swapped the 52 sight i had for a rcvr sight for a savage 99...
sold the rifle ... now i have a brand new in the box redfield sight for a 52 sporter... picked it up on CGN... get thee behind me Satan!!! sporter 52s are the heroin of rifles... crazy wild expensive.

i am now looking for a target sight for ANOTHER 52 i have... an original ... looks like a garand. i don't know why i need another target sight ... it is deadly accurate with the military style sights ... but theres no audible ... CLICK!!

i have been haunting gun shows wearing a deer stalker hat and a cape, looking madly at tiny boxes of SIGHTS!!! it is out there ... one must believe... my PRECCCCCIOOOOUS! maybe at yorkton... the search continues...

i understand there is a 12 click program for me ... how would that change the elevation tho.

[Rem - P14]

HA HA!! I also shoot one of Jack's flat bows!
jack and i have had many great conversations over the years, and I had him build a Freestyle bow for my father that is a super accurate piece of equipment!
Cat

This is good to know. I was hoping someone would recognize Jack's name. He has contributed a lot to the world of Archery

[Rem - P14]

Hornhead:
Your warning is very well taken. Your experiences looking for sights sound something like my own after learning that I too could reload ammunition! Then I simply kept reloading without necessarily checking the results of my experiments. Reloading shells is almost as much fun as shooting them!
I am not obsessive about firearms but I understand how one might become that way.

[Rem - P14]

Good to hear from you Gord:
I know I have a lot of work to become truly proficient but even at my level, the peep sights are a lot of fun. It is good to know the possible standards are so high.

[KegRiver]

Good story. Wrong war.:lol:

Grizz


LOL Yes indeed! Now why did I say WW2 ? I know, I was distracted, the phone rang! Yeah that's it, The Phone! Can't be age, must be the phone.

[32-40win]

Have a #1 I bought, that came with a Parker rear peep, and a Valmet Lion that came with a full set of Walther equipt. I pirated the Walther stuff for my 1885.
I can't shoot any better with the scope at 200 than the irons, bench or offhand.
I like to adjust the diopter to just encircle the front sight housing so I am not looking at so much daylite around the frt sight There was a fella in Kamloops that used to keep a lot of target peep oriented stuff, he was at Calgary gun show last year. He's been a regular there for 20+ years and I have a total mental block on his name at present. seems to me I still have a spare Parker peep setup stashed away somewhere.

[catnthehat]

Have a #1 I bought, that came with a Parker rear peep, and a Valmet Lion that came with a full set of Walther equipt. I pirated the Walther stuff for my 1885.
I can't shoot any better with the scope at 200 than the irons, bench or offhand.
I like to adjust the diopter to just encircle the front sight housing so I am not looking at so much daylite around the frt sight There was a fella in Kamloops that used to keep a lot of target peep oriented stuff, he was at Calgary gun show last year. He's been a regular there for 20+ years and I have a total mental block on his name at present. seems to me I still have a spare Parker peep setup stashed away somewhere.

Paul Reibin would be the man's name? Old time family friend!:)
Cat

[Rem - P14]

Have a #1 I bought, that came with a Parker rear peep, and a Valmet Lion that came with a full set of Walther equipt. I pirated the Walther stuff for my 1885.
I can't shoot any better with the scope at 200 than the irons, bench or offhand.
I like to adjust the diopter to just encircle the front sight housing so I am not looking at so much daylite around the frt sight There was a fella in Kamloops that used to keep a lot of target peep oriented stuff, he was at Calgary gun show last year. He's been a regular there for 20+ years and I have a total mental block on his name at present. seems to me I still have a spare Parker peep setup stashed away somewhere.

I shoot strictly bench with mine but I would like to change that sometime soon I have seen some true marksman doing wonderful things with their rifles without benefit of bench. Mind you, the old .303 has shown me enough potential from the bench that I am now convinced the fliers are all my fault. Holding that rifle steady in the off-hand position is proving to be quite the challenge and I am beginning to think a weight training program might be a prerequisite to trying off-hand.

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

I developed an interest in apertures years ago, when I saw my first unlimited focus binoculars.

one thing that is truly valuable is for sighting in, you can use a very small aperture in bright light with a well lit target to develop a load and be very accurate with it, then when hunting, you can enlarge the aperture, or remove it all together had have a pseudo "Ghost Ring" style peep.

and training with a very small aperture will quickly show you how well or poorly fit your firearm is to you. A well fit firearm will bring the sights to your eye, and if all is in zen, you would have a natural sight picture with the larger opening.

for those who doubt the power of the aperture, I offer this experiment.
1) take one piece of stiff paper, or tablet backing and make a small hole with a pushpin or needle. a hole around 1mm should work.

2) Take one VERY nearsighted person, (you know them, thick rimmed lenses, blind without them) and have them read a sign from 50 feet without their glasses. They will probably NOT be able to do so

3) let them read the same sign from the same distance while peering through the small hole. ALL will be in focus and they will be able to read the sign just fine.

it is NOT Voodoo magic, it just plain works. Physics is the science here I think.

Now, think of the benefit of an iris attached to your glasses like Bullseye shooters use. Even some black tape with a small hole in the corner of your glasses where you would peer through while sighting.

EVERYTHING will be in focus, and you will shoot more accurately

[spentround]

Something natural about peep sights. Way back in school days I bought from the local hardware store a peep sighted Lee Enfield 303 British. I had never shot a rifle before except pellet guns. Took this 303 to a field, set up a 6 inch pumpkin a hundred paces away, sat down and shot - punkin blewup real good. Took that gun hunting that fall - big buck running hard straight away at 100- 150 yards, took a quick sighting and shot - he dropped dead. I was just a silly kid but there was something natural about using a peep site.

[Rem - P14]

One more experience for those of you with the patience for my enthusiasm (thank-you in advance). I had my gunsmith mount some Lymann peep sights on an old Win. Model 69 .22. The front sight is wrapped very nicely in a globe and by taking an exact posture with the rifle cradled perfectly, I am able to line that globe up perfectly with the rear aperture. In such a position the front sight has absolutely nowhere to go but the midddle of the aperture. Downside is that this position takes a little more time than is preferable get exact and probably would not be great for hunting (maybe someone in here can share their experiences in that regard).
Thanks again

[catnthehat]

One more experience for those of you with the patience for my enthusiasm (thank-you in advance). I had my gunsmith mount some Lymann peep sights on an old Win. Model 69 .22. The front sight is wrapped very nicely in a globe and by taking an exact posture with the rifle cradled perfectly, I am able to line that globe up perfectly with the rear aperture. In such a position the front sight has absolutely nowhere to go but the midddle of the aperture. Downside is that this position takes a little more time than is preferable get exact and probably would not be great for hunting (maybe someone in here can share their experiences in that regard).
Thanks again

What have you got in the rear for an insert?
Unscrew the aperture out of the rear sight and look through the big hole - simple as that , just completely disregard the rear sight .
You will be amazed at just how fat it is!
Cat

[Rem - P14]

I believe I know what you are getting at CAT. Fact is, the way I'm using this system now I do have to observe a particular (uncomfortable and unnatural) posture in order to make the peep and front sight globe line up with each other. I will try your idea and see if that improves things. Seems like a very long time until I will have the time to go to the gun-range again. Every spring is the same long wait. (sigh)
Thanks again.


What have you got in the rear for an insert?
Unscrew the aperture out of the rear sight and look through the big hole - simple as that , just completely disregard the rear sight .
You will be amazed at just how fat it is!
Cat

[couleefolk]

Here in Manitoba, we use peep sights in our junior rifle program. kids are always saying we should use scopes, but peeps are way better for our discipline. first, they are extremely easy to line up, round eyeball, round rear apperature, round from sight, round bullseye, round bullet hole. less weight than a scope (we often start students at the age of 8 if they are of large build). extremely durable, especially when we start them off in the prone position, and the guns are always on the floor. an important point, give some people a scope at the range and they see that their heartbeat is pulling the gun off the x and they start to yank the trigger instead of squeezing it, throws the concentration off. peeps are very nice for this. we prefer to use the plastic discs up front with the countersunk hole so you have no side bars holding your front apperature ring.

[Rem - P14]

Here in Manitoba, we use peep sights in our junior rifle program. kids are always saying we should use scopes, but peeps are way better for our discipline. first, they are extremely easy to line up, round eyeball, round rear apperature, round from sight, round bullseye, round bullet hole. less weight than a scope (we often start students at the age of 8 if they are of large build). extremely durable, especially when we start them off in the prone position, and the guns are always on the floor. an important point, give some people a scope at the range and they see that their heartbeat is pulling the gun off the x and they start to yank the trigger instead of squeezing it, throws the concentration off. peeps are very nice for this. we prefer to use the plastic discs up front with the countersunk hole so you have no side bars holding your front apperature ring.

Thank-you Coulee folk:
Sorry for the very late reply. I was away for a while and did not notice your message until just now. I can really identify with the shakiness of the scope view you described. Never would have thought of the peep as being any kind of a cure for that affliction though. I beleve you are correct.

[densa44]

This rifle has the best peep sight I've ever seen. It has elevation and Windage corrections, and for the unwashed you can turn them down and have a normal Iron sight.

The first time I shot an FN 7.62 it had a peep sight and very accurate rapid fire was easy. What happened to all those rifles, they were very accurate.

[Rem - P14]

This rifle has the best peep sight I've ever seen. It has elevation and Windage corrections, and for the unwashed you can turn them down and have a normal Iron sight.

The first time I shot an FN 7.62 it had a peep sight and very accurate rapid fire was easy. What happened to all those rifles, they were very accurate.

It sounds as though you were experimenting with a very similar sight to the one I was looking at on a Ross of an undetermined vintage. I did not fire that rifle but I could not believe how clear the peep sight system was when I looked through it. Perhaps that is also a reflection of how substandard my front sight is on my P-14, I cannot say for sure.
Anyway, the Ross I was looking at had a twenty inch barrel and I once ran across a picture of what appeared to be an identical rifle that was billed as a "1905". Then I saw other 1905s with much longer barrels. I'm still in the dark.
I couldn't agree with you more regarding the sights and their clarity.
Regards,
Rem