wow! remington

[pickrel pat]

anyone just watch the documentry on the 700 series? wow! to think i was gonna buy one. will never support a company like that! SCOUNDRELS!

[just_dave]

What channel? What's going on? Where's my kitty?

[hillbillyreefer]

anyone just watch the documentry on the 700 series? wow! to think i was gonna buy one. will never support a company like that! SCOUNDRELS!
Yeah because that smear piece by the msm had so much truth to it.
That story is months old, try the search function find the old thread and read it, no point rehashing it again.

[KegRiver]

yeah, I watched it. Nothing too surprising.

I have come to expect that sort of thing from North American companies.

[moosemad]

Is Mrs Remington still crazy? :sEm_oops2: Nevermind, that's a whole different topic.

[Grizzly Adams]

Here's the other side of the story. Kind of like the Toyota acceleration problem.:lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_KVS1hIbQg&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Grizz

[tkhiebs]

Ya I believe everything I see on T.V.:scared0018:

[GeoTrekr]

I had that problem with my Remington 700 SPS Varmint!!!!...













... So I turned the trigger screw back a bit, and it went away. I had gone too far, but fixing it... fixed it. End of story.

Now what I do wish is that Remington would get away from is that stupid rough finish on all their rifles.

[blacktailslayer]

I just posted this on CGN, anyone that is scared of their 700 please send them to me. I am especially fond of the Titanium actioned models. I will of course cover all shipping costs,:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[DanJ]

"I have come to expect that sort of thing from North American companies."

Oh, BEE ESS!

[pikergolf]

Sat down and watched the whole thing aprox.30 min. then the rebuttle from Rem. Well about 10 min. of the rebuttle. The interdepartmental memo's are pretty damning, as well as the footage of it actually happening at the sniper training ranges. It's pretty obvious they know there's a problem and are denying it. Hopefully the class action suit gets them to own up to there responability although the Co. has changed hands a few times since the problem guns where manufactured. I will not purchase another Rem. product based on what I saw, although the only Rem. product I use is ammunition.

[Twisted Canuck]

Never had a problem...if your 700 scares you, I will be happy to save you from it. Don't take a chance, PM me your particulars, and I will take it off your hands for a modest fee. You won't regret it....:)

[Cowtown guy]

Sat down and watched the whole thing aprox.30 min. then the rebuttle from Rem. Well about 10 min. of the rebuttle. The interdepartmental memo's are pretty damning, as well as the footage of it actually happening at the sniper training ranges. It's pretty obvious they know there's a problem and are denying it. Hopefully the class action suit gets them to own up to there responability although the Co. has changed hands a few times since the problem guns where manufactured. I will not purchase another Rem. product based on what I saw, although the only Rem. product I use is ammunition.

To the best of my knowledge every one of the guns that had an issue either had a homemade trigger job done or was neglected. Of course they won't tell you that in a very biased, one-sided documentary.
I clean my 700 properly, which means I take the barrell off after the season and clean the trigger group and the action, had the trigger tuned by a professional and hence will never have a problem.
One of the so called experts that is claiming how unsafe they are bought a 700 after the interviews. Maybe it has an x-mark, I don't know. Seems a little strange to me.

[Grizzly Adams]

Sat down and watched the whole thing aprox.30 min. then the rebuttle from Rem. Well about 10 min. of the rebuttle. The interdepartmental memo's are pretty damning, as well as the footage of it actually happening at the sniper training ranges. It's pretty obvious they know there's a problem and are denying it. Hopefully the class action suit gets them to own up to there responability although the Co. has changed hands a few times since the problem guns where manufactured. I will not purchase another Rem. product based on what I saw, although the only Rem. product I use is ammunition.

Their take, as I saw it, is if you mess with the trigger, you may be creating a problem, not unique to Remington. The sniper range shot, was a perfect example. The unfortunate result will probably be they will make the damn thing non adjustable and you'll have to suffer with whatever the lawyers say is safe. :D

The American government just had to back pedal big time, after a year of investigation, when they decided there was no electronic reason for Toyota's acceleration problem. Pretty easy to develop Mass Hysteria in modern society.:lol:

Grizz

[stinkynuts]

1st that is one side of the story 2 all those rifle triggers have be modifide by some who probably should not be touching it 3 if you watch the other story who ever ajusted the fualty trigger mess up the sear and a bunch of ohter stuff . the morale of the story is no matter what rifle you have only let someone with tons of experiace and trainning ajust things . the 700 is a very safe rifle in my mind i have no fears on doubts about my 700's as they have never been dicked with

[pikergolf]

To the best of my knowledge every one of the guns that had an issue either had a homemade trigger job done or was neglected. Of course they won't tell you that in a very biased, one-sided documentary.
I clean my 700 properly, which means I take the barrell off after the season and clean the trigger group and the action, had the trigger tuned by a professional and hence will never have a problem.
One of the so called experts that is claiming how unsafe they are bought a 700 after the interviews. Maybe it has an x-mark, I don't know. Seems a little strange to me.

As I said I watched the whole thing and never once was it mentioned that the triggers had been adjusted. As to neglected, the way I understand the problem, dirt or grime build up is definantly a factor. Having said that I pretty sure that taking the gun out of it's stock and cleaning the trigger assembly is not done by the vast majority of hunters, you and I withstanding.:) I doubt it's even on most peoples radar. The thing I have a problem with is that they could have fixed it for 5.5 cents many years ago and chose not to. An idiot proof trigger is possible," or vastly safer" see Savage, and I think if you have the technology and don't use it that's a shame.

[nick0danger]

shoot about a dozen 700's since seeing that in September, and not one would go off like that even a couple that where over thirty years old and rarely cleaned.

[6.5x47 lapua]

we all should have bought shares in timney triggers,im sure they have a sh*t eating grin on their faces by now!as far as foolproof or idiot proof triggers,good luck with that thought.

[MK2750]

Just because you never had an issue does not mean that there is no issue. I believe the stats were 1 in 50,000 with problems so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that 49,999 people can jump on a thread and consider themselves an expert for every one that experienced a problem.

I had a new one that my son was hunting with for two years before the problem was noticed. It was only worked on by Dave Henry and I can assure you Dave knows how to work on Remingtons.

It had dangerous issues whether you guys want to believe it or not. I only discovered it after watching the documentary and putting the rifle through some testing.

So keep on giving the expert advise because you have never witnessed the issue. But know that some guy (perhaps a kid) is walking around with a rifle ready to fire when he hits the safety, because of your words of wisdom.

I opted for a new Timney trigger. I just haven't drank enough of the Rem kool-aid to risk my sons life over the price of a tank of gas.

[Cowtown guy]

As I said I watched the whole thing and never once was it mentioned that the triggers had been adjusted. As to neglected, the way I understand the problem, dirt or grime build up is definantly a factor. Having said that I pretty sure that taking the gun out of it's stock and cleaning the trigger assembly is not done by the vast majority of hunters, you and I withstanding.:) I doubt it's even on most peoples radar. The thing I have a problem with is that they could have fixed it for 5.5 cents many years ago and chose not to. An idiot proof trigger is possible," or vastly safer" see Savage, and I think if you have the technology and don't use it that's a shame.

The rebuttal from remington said that the triggers had been played with. They also had pictures of some of the firearms from court admitted evidence and what the documentary failed to show is how rusted, corroded and full of crap the action was out of the stock.

As for fixing the problem. Sure it should have been fixed. But you can't fix stupid. If a gunowner is too simple to think that something could fall down those huge gaps that are left in any factory production rifle then where do you go from there? I'm pretty sure that it says in a manual to ensure the trigger group is kept clean and free of debris. For the less mechanically inclined it even has pictures.:thinking-006:

As Rob said there is no idiot proof trigger. Better, maybe, but never safe from the meatheads.

[MK2750]

You have either witnessed the issue or you don't know. It doesn't matter if you have seen or worked on 100,000 rifles.

You can blame people that have been killed or hurt. You can even call them meatheads if it makes you feel good, but that is not going to change the fact that there are some bad triggers out there.

[Bushrat]

but that is not going to change the fact that there are some bad triggers out there.

I would disagree, I would say there are a lot of neglected and dangerously incorrectly adjusted triggers from all manufacturers. Just because Remington sells more rifles and is a bigger company that produces a rifle that's overwhelmingly the the most popular favorite rifle of people who like to customize and tinker with their rifles. So yah, remington may have a bigger litigation target on their back than the other manufacturers. Hopefully you don't think that it's only remington that puts out triggers that can be made faulty through neglect or improper adjustment. If Winchester, Ruger, Browning, sako, mauser etc, etc were as big as Remington the video and lawsuit would be about one of them. It's not like all those other manufacturers have never had a trigger /safety failure. Which one of them will be sued next. Pretty much any trigger can be made unsafe, a wrong turn of the adjustment screws, a tiny piece of debris where it dosen't belong and any of these triggers/safetys can fail. It's like the brakes on your car, keep them maintained correctly or sooner or later they will fail.

If you think about how much abuse triggers take, how little maintenance they recieve, it's amazing how few fail.

[gitrdun]

Lot's of funny things happen when clowns handle guns.

[Unregistered user]

Don't point a gun at something you don't intend to break or kill and it doesn't matter what kind of trigger you have. BTW that media piece was bunk, scumbags seeking ratings at the expense of a great company.
http://remington700.tv/#/home FWIW I shoot Savage.:)

[honda450]

Easy fix.

Don't like or trust Remingtons.............don't buy em.

Can't trust the one ya got ............sell it.

I have 2 700's and was well aware of this so called problem bout 2 years ago. I tried everything I could to make them misfire...........no dice.

Your results may vary. hehe

[MK2750]

Lot's of funny things happen when clowns handle guns.

Mine was new. The only person who touched was Dave Henry. I am sure he will give a $%#^ about your expert opinion.

[honda450]

Mine was new. The only person who touched was Dave Henry. I am sure he will give a $%#^ about your expert opinion.

What ya talking about? Jumping to conclusions again. :snapoutofit:

[MK2750]

I would disagree, I would say there are a lot of neglected and dangerously incorrectly adjusted triggers from all manufacturers. Just because Remington sells more rifles and is a bigger company that produces a rifle that's overwhelmingly the the most popular favorite rifle of people who like to customize and tinker with their rifles. So yah, remington may have a bigger litigation target on their back than the other manufacturers. Hopefully you don't think that it's only remington that puts out triggers that can be made faulty through neglect or improper adjustment. If Winchester, Ruger, Browning, sako, mauser etc, etc were as big as Remington the video and lawsuit would be about one of them. It's not like all those other manufacturers have never had a trigger /safety failure. Which one of them will be sued next. Pretty much any trigger can be made unsafe, a wrong turn of the adjustment screws, a tiny piece of debris where it dosen't belong and any of these triggers/safetys can fail. It's like the brakes on your car, keep them maintained correctly or sooner or later they will fail.

If you think about how much abuse triggers take, how little maintenance they recieve, it's amazing how few fail.

I don't trust factory work. I had Dave go over the gun. From the factory the trigger pull was close to ten pounds. The trigger group was spotless always.

The rifle still hasn't had 100 rounds through it and some were reduced recoil.

Sometimes when you pulled the trigger nothing would happen. If at that point you tap the bolt or touch the safety it would fire. I took it in to Dave again he could see nothing wrong except the group was sloppy.

So what exactly do you figure I should do at this point.

A. Say screw it and send my 14 years old out with gun as if nothing happened.

or

B. Throw the POS trigger in the trash and put on a new one that is safe.

[6.5x47 lapua]

Lot's of funny things happen when clowns handle guns.

how very true.scary part is how many people trust their lives with safetys.scarier yet is how many people teach their kids to trust their lives with safetys.what happened to always point your gun in a safe direction to take safety off.guns dont kill people,stupiidty does.

[savage7mm]

how very true.scary part is how many people trust their lives with safetys.scarier yet is how many people teach their kids to trust their lives with safetys.what happened to always point your gun in a safe direction to take safety off.guns dont kill people,stupiidty does.

x2, neither does a 30 round clip lol jk:sHa_shakeshout:

[MK2750]

how very true.scary part is how many people trust their lives with safetys.scarier yet is how many people teach their kids to trust their lives with safetys.what happened to always point your gun in a safe direction to take safety off.guns dont kill people,stupiidty does.

Couldn't agree more, and let me add that if your rifle fires when you hit the safety you should take it to a good gun smith. If the gun smith can not identify a way to positively fix the issue then you should change the trigger group.

[Bushrat]

I don't trust factory work. I had Dave go over the gun. From the factory the trigger pull was close to ten pounds. The trigger group was spotless always.

The rifle still hasn't had 100 rounds through it and some were reduced recoil.

Sometimes when you pulled the trigger nothing would happen. If at that point you tap the bolt or touch the safety it would fire. I took it in to Dave again he could see nothing wrong except the group was sloppy.

So what exactly do you figure I should do at this point.

A. Say screw it and send my 14 years old out with gun as if nothing happened.

or

B. Throw the POS trigger in the trash and put on a new one that is safe.

Choose B. Except don't throw the trigger away. I'll give you $100 for it, I want to find whats wrong with it.

You say it has done it frequently before you had fired the first 100 rounds out of a brand new rifle. Did it do it when Dave looked at it?

[MK2750]

Choose B. Except don't throw the trigger away. I'll give you $100 for it, I want to find whats wrong with it.

You say it has done it frequently before you had fired the first 100 rounds out of a brand new rifle. Did it do it when Dave looked at it?

It had side to side play as if the pins were wore out. It had not done it frequently. After I watched the documentary I took it to the range to check it out. If you pulled the trigger with the safety on nothing happened. If you then took it off safety it twice would not fire. After the failed attempt at firing the rifle would now fire if you touched the bolt or the safety.

It was not repeatable every time but it did happen. I took the rifle home, stripped it down and carefully sprayed the group out with brake cleaner over a white piece of cardboard. I expected to find something but did not. I reassembled the rifle and could not get it to repeat the problem on a dry fire.

I took it to Dave and he couldn't see any issues except that there was an unusual amount of side to side play. Sloppy is how he described it.

Anyhow I had already seen enough so I just had him change it out. I would give you the trigger but Dave, like yourself, wanted it to see if he could get it tightened up or use it for his parts bin as it has a left handed safety assembly.

I don't want to argue this. Dave likes Walker triggers also and had never seen one with an issue out of hundreds or maybe thousands.

I don't believe there is a better action than the 700. But at nearly $1000 for a BDL or CDL I think you can buy a much better rifle. Nearly all manufacturers are offering a really good trigger, a bedded action and a free floating barrel. It is a sad day when a $300 Stevens will out shoot Remington's flagship model without major upgrades.

[KegRiver]

I'm with you on this one MK2750. Some folks just won't admit that North American brands can have problems.

I remember this same argument involving Imperial ammunition, which apparently could hang fire. Sometimes, after a considerable amount of time after the trigger was pulled.
Several people were injured due to hang fires. Other like myself never had a problem. Many argued that it was due to stupid handling. It eventually lead to law suits and the end of Imperial.

[FunwithGuns]

It was only worked on by Dave Henry and I can assure you Dave knows how to work on Remingtons.

So you had someone modify a factory trigger. Unless Dave works for Remington and is authorized to work on it, the blame lies on you. Remington, as well as a lot of the users of these guns recognize that modifications (or neglect) can cause the unwanted firing issue. I'm sure that Dave does top-notch work, but you can't blame a manufacturer for a defect after someones else has tampered with it. If Dave knew the action so intimately, he would recognize the defect and would never touch a 700 again. Reality is when a manufacturer of ANYTHING place their product out there on a mass scale, they will see every problem imaginable with it, be it neglect, improper use, storage, care, modification or whatever. Bottom line is that it's extremely rare and if you do your due diligence, it's not worth worrying about.

[MK2750]

So you had someone modify a factory trigger. Unless Dave works for Remington and is authorized to work on it, the blame lies on you. Remington, as well as a lot of the users of these guns recognize that modifications (or neglect) can cause the unwanted firing issue. I'm sure that Dave does top-notch work, but you can't blame a manufacturer for a defect after someones else has tampered with it. If Dave knew the action so intimately, he would recognize the defect and would never touch a 700 again. Reality is when a manufacturer of ANYTHING place their product out there on a mass scale, they will see every problem imaginable with it, be it neglect, improper use, storage, care, modification or whatever. Bottom line is that it's extremely rare and if you do your due diligence, it's not worth worrying about.

I believe Dave was an authorized warranty guy at one time but got tired of the head ache. Unless you know something no one else knows I would suggest you not comment on Dave Henry's qualifications as a gun smith. He is one of most respecting gunsmiths in the industry.

I did do my due diligence and I am not worried about it.

[FunwithGuns]

I believe Dave was an authorized warranty guy at one time but got tired of the head ache. Unless you know something no one else knows I would suggest you not comment on Dave Henry's qualifications as a gun smith. He is one of most respecting gunsmiths in the industry.

I did do my due diligence and I am not worried about it.

I don't know Dave Henry, nor am I commenting as to his qualifications. I'm simply making a point that when anyone starts to tamper with a factory design that is NOT his own and undesirable results occur, that the OEM cannot be blamed.

I say this as someone with extensive experience in manufacturing and design and see first hand what happens when people tinker with something that they don't fully understand.

Remington or any other gun manufacturer have a huge amount of resources. There is reasoning for the way the end product is shipped. It's not in their best interest to knowingly send out something that would endanger their client, or worse, give the anti's more "ammunition" for their fight.

[303carbine]

anyone just watch the documentry on the 700 series? wow! to think i was gonna buy one. will never support a company like that! SCOUNDRELS!



The problem isn't with the rifles, it's with the ignorance and poor gun handling skills of the person behind the trigger that allows accidents to happen.
The rifles that showed the problems were so rusty and poorly maintained that it's amazing they fired at all. The rifle that the military guy fired while closing the bolt suddenly went "missing" when it was requested that it be brought to the Remington factory for inspection.
I have had mostly Remington rifles for the past 35 years, I have never had a problem like the ones they showed on that hack job documentary.
What's worse is that some uninformed people believe this kind of reporting and perpetuate the ignorance.

[catnthehat]

So you had someone modify a factory trigger. Unless Dave works for Remington and is authorized to work on it, the blame lies on you. Remington, as well as a lot of the users of these guns recognize that modifications (or neglect) can cause the unwanted firing issue. I'm sure that Dave does top-notch work, but you can't blame a manufacturer for a defect after someones else has tampered with it. If Dave knew the action so intimately, he would recognize the defect and would never touch a 700 again. Reality is when a manufacturer of ANYTHING place their product out there on a mass scale, they will see every problem imaginable with it, be it neglect, improper use, storage, care, modification or whatever. Bottom line is that it's extremely rare and if you do your due diligence, it's not worth worrying about.

TAMPERED WITH??!!
putting David Henry in the same sentence as tampering with a trigger is akin to putting mike walker in the the same sentence!!
He is an authorized dealer, and a master gunsmith, as are other gunsmiths that can tell you the same thing.
I've stayed out of this topic, but I have to agree that most triggers Ii have seen that are unsafe were made that way through ignorance, mostly taking the trigger below its intended weight pull.
Cat

[North of 53]

I have a couple of 700 and have had the trigger replaced on one and worked on bu my gun smith on the other. They are safe as far as I can tell but that's not really the point here.
The point is the arms business is a very lucrative business and Remington makes a ton of money building guns. In exchange for that they need to be sure they have the safest product for sale that they can. Their own memos would seam to show that they could have done better for very little extra cost and they made the choice not to. If a trigger is going to fail it needs to fail safely, that is to say there needs to be no bang at all. If you you are going to sell a 100,000 guns a year and there is a one in a million chance that your gun could accidentally kill some one that means that every ten years some dies because of your greed. There is no playing the numbers game with safety when you have the option to do better you have to take it. Remington could have done better and they didn't.

[gitrdun]

North, certainly NOT to take away Remington's responsibility to construct a safe and reliable trigger/safety mechanism, not one bit. But no one would die if proper firearm handling was first and foremost with the end user. I have been fortunate enough to never owning a defective trigger in the many Remington products that I've had. But, I could certainly name a few individuals whose improper handling certainly would result in injury or worse had they been cursed with a defective trigger.

[North of 53]

North, certainly NOT to take away Remington's responsibility to construct a safe and reliable trigger/safety mechanism, not one bit. But no one would die if proper firearm handling was first and foremost with the end user. I have been fortunate enough to never owning a defective trigger in the many Remington products that I've had. But, I could certainly name a few individuals whose improper handling certainly would result in injury or worse had they been cursed with a defective trigger.

I totally agree that we can never drop our guard when it come to safe gun handling. We must always assume a gun is loaded even when we are sure it is not. If there is a reasonable safer way to handle a gun we must always do it. We must also be vigilant in pointing out to our fellow gun owners when we feel they have slipped up and could have done a better safer job in safer gun handling.
It is that same principal that the gun manufactures must live up to. We as gun owners must do our part to keep our sport safe and we should expect no less from the gun manufactures that make millions of dollars each year from our sport.

[Cowtown guy]

North, certainly NOT to take away Remington's responsibility to construct a safe and reliable trigger/safety mechanism, not one bit. But no one would die if proper firearm handling was first and foremost with the end user. I have been fortunate enough to never owning a defective trigger in the many Remington products that I've had. But, I could certainly name a few individuals whose improper handling certainly would result in injury or worse had they been cursed with a defective trigger.

I agree. No-one dies if the rifle is pointed in a safe direction at "ALL" times. Relying on a safety is almost negligent in itself. I have never trusted a safety. I never will. I leave one out of the tube until I'm ready to aim and fire. If the opportunity for a shot disappears then I unchamber the round and stuff it back into the mag.

In every case one of these cases it wasn't Remingtons fault that a person was killed or hurt. It was the fault of the person handling the firearm. That may sound crass but it's true. If they had followed proper firearm handling procedures nobody would have had the gun pointed at them.

[KegRiver]

Let me see if I got this right.

MK2750 buys a rifle, after a while he discovers there is a problem with this rifle so he takes it to one of the best, if not the best gunsmith in the country and has it repaired.

Now somehow it's his fault for having the gun repaired?
How does that work?


Oh yeah, now I remember, the gun was dirty and rusty. Being that it was new when the problem appeared, I must assume that Remington manufactures dirty rusty guns.

Now I remember why I like my old 303. Even dirty and rusty the don't fire without the trigger being pulled.

Sure sure Mr. Hero, all my guns are dirty and rusty. What did you expect.
I don't own any Remingtons.

[bobly]

As a gunsmith for 30 years I have adjusted many Remington 700 triggers. Some had problems before they came to me. Upon examination of the adjusting screws, I found most had been tampered with because the screws were no longer sealed. The pull was adjusted way too light. In my view 2.5 lbs is as low as you should go. A lot of times the sear adjustment screw and the lash screw had also been adjusted... taboo! A lot of guys are clueless in this realm and are out to save a few bucks with a do-it-yourself trigger job. They should stick to their computers!

I never once had a factory adjusted trigger with problems...all the problem triggers were dicked with. Bubba was working overtime for these guys. I find the Reminton triggers are just fine when undisturbed. Pull is a bit heavy but they do that to protect the buyer and the company.

They could foolproof triggers, I suppose but then you would have a trigger with a very heavy pull. You could probably hang a frozen turkey off the trigger with no release on such a trigger! Trigger adjustment is not for everyone that owns a jewellers screwdriver set.

[Cowtown guy]

Let me see if I got this right.

MK2750 buys a rifle, after a while he discovers there is a problem with this rifle so he takes it to one of the best, if not the best gunsmith in the country and has it repaired.

Now somehow it's his fault for having the gun repaired?
How does that work?


Oh yeah, now I remember, the gun was dirty and rusty. Being that it was new when the problem appeared, I must assume that Remington manufactures dirty rusty guns.

Now I remember why I like my old 303. Even dirty and rusty the don't fire without the trigger being pulled.

Sure sure Mr. Hero, all my guns are dirty and rusty. What did you expect.
I don't own any Remingtons.

MK has a right to be upset. A new gun with issues is not right. If the gun was new shouldn't it have had an x-mark? Is there an issue with these as well? I was under the assumption that it was only the old triggers had issues.

The guns in the rebuttal all had trigger work done from an outside source. The pictures shown in the court documents (that were not shown in the documentary by the way) were corroded and it was a miracle the things could work at all. Nobody here can say that may not be a contributing factor to any firearm issues.

I commend you for taking the time to looking into your gun MK. As a result you have taken the danger away from you and your son. I would have done the same and switched the trigger.

[6.5x47 lapua]

As a gunsmith for 30 years I have adjusted many Remington 700 triggers. Some had problems before they came to me. Upon examination of the adjusting screws, I found most had been tampered with because the screws were no longer sealed. The pull was adjusted way too light. In my view 2.5 lbs is as low as you should go. A lot of times the sear adjustment screw and the lash screw had also been adjusted... taboo! A lot of guys are clueless in this realm and are out to save a few bucks with a do-it-yourself trigger job. They should stick to their computers!

I never once had a factory adjusted trigger with problems...all the problem triggers were dicked with. Bubba was working overtime for these guys. I find the Reminton triggers are just fine when undisturbed. Pull is a bit heavy but they do that to protect the buyer and the company.

They could foolproof triggers, I suppose but then you would have a trigger with a very heavy pull. You could probably hang a frozen turkey off the trigger with no release on such a trigger! Trigger adjustment is not for everyone that owns a jewellers screwdriver set.

to further add to this,guns are mass produced!every once in a while something comes out of the factory that isnt perfect.and dont insult me and tell me it is just remington.i might have something to do with working on guns pretty much every day and it is all makes!hence the need for a warranty centre.utopia is not possible.handle your firearms SAFELY,DONT TRUST THE SAFETY WITH YOUR LIFE,AND EVERYBODY GOES HOME SAFE AT END OF DAY.end of story.

[gitrdun]

^^^ yup, for sure. Most shooters/hunters are looking for a firearm within what their budget allows them. That puts them into the "mass produced" relm. And, in the mass produced relm, chit happens, things go past quality control. If one wants the assurance that "nothing" will ever go wrong with the mechanisms of their tools, then they ought to UP the ante by several thousand dollars. But, that doesn't fall into the budget of most hunters, does it? Still though, the final responsibility of firearm safety falls in the hands of the fellow or gal who had that firearm in their hand. So, in my humble opinion, the consequences of an accidental discharge, be it mechanical or not, still falls as a responsibility of the person that had said firearm in THEIR hand, no one else.

[FunwithGuns]

If one wants the assurance that "nothing" will ever go wrong with the mechanisms of their tools, then they ought to UP the ante by several thousand dollars. [/B]

I agree with you, but spending more money is no guarantee. Military planes crash, satellites fail and space shuttles blow up.. Any machine can fail, and the results are worse when in the hands of someone untrained, incompetent or negligent. Just my $0.02..

[gitrdun]

I agree with you, but spending more money is no guarantee. Military planes crash, satellites fail and space shuttles blow up.. Any machine can fail, and the results are worse when in the hands of someone untrained, incompetent or negligent. Just my $0.02..

Agreed, you're just simply duplicating what I said earlier about the fact that the cause and effect of the firearm lies in the hands of the one that holds it.

git

[KegRiver]

So, if I were one of those unfortunate folks who bought a gun, took good care of it, did not mess with it or alter it in any way, and some time later discovered that it would fire without me ever touching the trigger, and even though I had been diligent with safety and nothing had been harmed, and no one was injured, you think I have no reason to complain or even to be concerned about.

That is what you are saying to MK2750 and folks like him.

Wow, you are a charitable bunch!

See, safety needs both sides to participate, to be most effective. In this case, first the gun owner, second, the gun manufacture.
To place it all on the shoulders of the gun owner is unfair, unwise, unreasonable and dangerous.
It is in fact exactly what Remington is doing.

We have all seen guns that were unsafe because they were neglected, abused, or altered. Clearly this matter is not in that category. Not when the man who designed that trigger says he warned the company of potential problems for years while in their employ.

[gitrdun]

So, if I were one of those unfortunate folks who bought a gun, took good care of it, did not mess with it or alter it in any way, and some time later discovered that it would fire without me ever touching the trigger, and even though I had been diligent with safety and nothing had been harmed, and no one was injured, you think I have no reason to complain or even to be concerned about.

That is what you are saying to MK2750 and folks like him.

Wow, you are a charitable bunch!

See, safety needs both sides to participate, to be most effective. In this case, first the gun owner, second, the gun manufacture.
To place it all on the shoulders of the gun owner is unfair, unwise, unreasonable and dangerous.
It is in fact exactly what Remington is doing.

We have all seen guns that were unsafe because they were neglected, abused, or altered. Clearly this matter is not in that category. Not when the man who designed that trigger says he warned the company of potential problems for years while in their employ.

Well Keg, I've had mods 721, 788, 751's and recently a 700 LSS. After viewing this program, I removed the scope from my 700LSS and literally beat the crap out of it. I couldn't muster a misfire no matter what. So, no I'm not going to argue with you, nor no one else about misfires as I could not duplicate one. But, you've stated as being a safe firearm user yourself and also stated as not ever having a misfire with one of your beloved .303 LE's. No argument there either, but have you ever checked the head space on one of them SMLE's? you might be in for an unpleasant surprise. As an owner of several SMLE's myself in mint "outer" condition, I've never had a single one that met SAAMI specs. in regards to head spacing. Therfore, if we're gonna talk about trigger/safety integrity, why not go a bit further and talk of the entire mechanism's safety, including head spacing etc.

[KegRiver]

So now it's my fault ?

[KegRiver]

Yeah I get what you are saying. Anyone who does not agree with you had better be squeaky clean. And I'm not, so I had better shut my mouth.
Right ?

[KegRiver]

Oh and by the way, the head space on my .303 is atrocious.
Bad enough to lead to case head separation after a little as three reloads.
Would you like to know the exact measurement ? Would it make a difference ?

See I know a thing or two about gunsmithing myself. You should see the 6.5x55 I converted to a sporter. Mighty fine looking gun according to those who have seen it. I contoured the barrel, turned down the bolt handle, fitted a sporter stock and a scope.
That gun has taken a good number of bear since I let it go. The new owner is very happy with it.

There, that is what you were hoping for wasn't it, something you could point to and say, "shut up, you are a dangerous man! You are not a qualified gunsmith, you are a truck driver!"

So there you have it, I'm not licensed so I'm a dangerous man. Right?

Or am I ? Do you know what training I have had ? Do you know what licenses I have ? Did I say I was untrained or unlicensed ?

Now, shall we get back on topic. Remington. Remember?

[gitrdun]

Wholly crap Kreg, not at all what I meant. Jeeperz, we can't disagree? What are you talking about this squeaky clean crap?

[KegRiver]

Then what are you saying ? How does my 303 have anything to do with the topic, namely Remington's faulty triggers.

[gitrdun]

Then what are you saying ? How does my 303 have anything to do with the topic, namely Remington's faulty triggers.


Because in post #44, you mentioned it:

Now I remember why I like my old 303. Even dirty and rusty the don't fire without the trigger being pulled.

The trigger doesn't require "pulling", it requires "towing".....lol.

[KegRiver]

I did. Yeah towing might be a more appropriate term.

As to the original post, I mentioned my old 303 because I don't buy this idea that all those accidental firings were the result of dirty or neglected guns.
I don't buy that all those guns had their triggers altered by the owners either.

In the documentary even the man who designed that trigger mechanism expressed concern that his design could fail accidentally and he further stated that he had brought his concerns to the attention of the company, plus offered a solution, which the company ignored.

I realize that he might have an agenda, but I doubt it. It would be most unusual for one to admit they had designed a faulty mechanism, if there were nothing wrong with it.

Also, the sheer number of complaints suggests to me that there is something to this.
Granted, as was stated in the documentary, it is only one in 50,000, and if no easy solution were available, that may be acceptable. But given that an aftermarket replacement is said to solve the problem, I believe that this should have been dealt with by the company a long time ago.

I further realize that many have had no issues with the same make and model of gun. That to me does not make it not true. Nore does it show that it was the fault of any of the victims.

I have no doubt that Remington, or for that matter, any big company would try to deflect the blame onto the consumer in such a situation. As I said, it is what I have come to expect from North American companies.
After all, it is the way most people do things in this society.

Just have a look around. A speeder slides into the ditch and tries to blame it on the road maintenance contractor. A drunk falls off a roof and tries to blame it on the home owner. Such things are common in our society.
Why would anyone think that large companies would be any different then the general public.

Sure I know, someone will say that the roads must have been slippery and the drunk was lured up that ladder by the home owner. You see, we have many examples of this attitude right here on this thread.

[6.5x47 lapua]

So, if I were one of those unfortunate folks who bought a gun, took good care of it, did not mess with it or alter it in any way, and some time later discovered that it would fire without me ever touching the trigger, and even though I had been diligent with safety and nothing had been harmed, and no one was injured, you think I have no reason to complain or even to be concerned about.

That is what you are saying to MK2750 and folks like him.

Wow, you are a charitable bunch!

See, safety needs both sides to participate, to be most effective. In this case, first the gun owner, second, the gun manufacture.
To place it all on the shoulders of the gun owner is unfair, unwise, unreasonable and dangerous.
It is in fact exactly what Remington is doing.

We have all seen guns that were unsafe because they were neglected, abused, or altered. Clearly this matter is not in that category. Not when the man who designed that trigger says he warned the company of potential problems for years while in their employ.

he has every right to be upset that his trigger was malfunctioning(did i not mention something a little while ago about warranty?)should he fear for his life from this?not if he handles his guns safely.there is no charity in safe handling of firearms.if you have a hard on for rems dont go near one.just dont go around assuming that the euro guns or all the rest of them are infallable because you are sadly mistaken.

[huntingd]

easy fix. If your gun has problems trash it or get it fixed. If it doesnt then use it. I dont use a safety. Never have as i always thought they were unreliable. I keep the bolt open about halfway. I use a remington m700 XCR and never had problems although i did see the show. I believe the problems are a mix of unsafe operaters and a faulty trigger mechanism. One accident happened while cleaning it with the safety on. i mean come on how is that even remotely considered safe.

[Cowtown guy]

The whole point of this deal is that the documentary was extremely biased with some very creative editing. Almost to the point of being laughable.

If you believe everything that the documentary says at face value then I got a bridge for sale.

The reason for bringing up the rebuttal is that it gives a whole new hill of beans to consider. Is it biased? Probably.

Just remember that there are always two sides to every story. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth.

Am I scared of the 700's? Never. I have owned several. I will buy more. Do I worry about shooting someone? Nope. Proper gun handling prevents this. If I did shoot someone I sure as he ll wouldn't blame Remington for my pointing a gun at someone.

[hardy]

My question is who goes to the store and buys a rifle based on how safe it is? To me its like goin and buyin a Ferrari based on how many air bags it has. Maybe its just me but I like to buy things based on the performance.

[MK2750]

My question is who goes to the store and buys a rifle based on how safe it is? To me its like goin and buyin a Ferrari based on how many air bags it has. Maybe its just me but I like to buy things based on the performance.

How about the brakes fail on your new Ferrari or a wheel falls off when you are coming into a sharp corner.

Come on people! There are only three or four working parts on a bolt gun. Is it out to lunch to expect them to work?

Performance? How about the buck of your dreams high tailing it through the bush because your gun went off when you weren't expecting it? How about you wound the buck and never recover? A charging Griz would be a good time for a failure?

Is that Performance to you?

[PoppaW]

Just change the trigger and keep shooting. Or buy a real gun. :scared0018:

[Cowtown guy]

MK did your gun have the old trigger? I see it was new. I thought they switched over to the x-mark on the new guns. Is there an issue there as well?

[hardy]

Actually if your real anal about safety, you wouldn't take the safety off until your on target. If remingtons go off when you take the safety off then wouldn't you hit your target?




How about the brakes fail on your new Ferrari or a wheel falls off when you are coming into a sharp corner.

Come on people! There are only three or four working parts on a bolt gun. Is it out to lunch to expect them to work?

Performance? How about the buck of your dreams high tailing it through the bush because your gun went off when you weren't expecting it? How about you wound the buck and never recover? A charging Griz would be a good time for a failure?

Is that Performance to you?

[MK2750]

MK did your gun have the old trigger? I see it was new. I thought they switched over to the x-mark on the new guns. Is there an issue there as well?

Mine is an 07 model with the old trigger. I bought it new in 08. If you do a search on gunnutz there has been at least one of the new models that has given grief and several of the old.

The response there was a bunch of bashing as well. Somehow getting a faulty gun makes you a bad guy.

[hardy]

I hope you know that when i made my first comment it wasn't directed to you but more so to the people who saw the nbc broadcast and are flippin out like chickens with your head cut off. Your not a bad guy because you own a gun that was busted. I had a savage with a sharpshooter trigger that shot when you flipped off the safety. Too little of sear engagement me thinks.


Mine is an 07 model with the old trigger. I bought it new in 08. If you do a search on gunnutz there has been at least one of the new models that has given grief and several of the old.

The response there was a bunch of bashing as well. Somehow getting a faulty gun makes you a bad guy.

[MK2750]

Actually if your real anal about safety, you wouldn't take the safety off until your on target. If remingtons go off when you take the safety off then wouldn't you hit your target?

You are quicker on the key board than I. Let's just leave it at that.

[FunwithGuns]

How about the brakes fail on your new Ferrari or a wheel falls off when you are coming into a sharp corner.

Come on people! There are only three or four working parts on a bolt gun. Is it out to lunch to expect them to work?

Performance? How about the buck of your dreams high tailing it through the bush because your gun went off when you weren't expecting it? How about you wound the buck and never recover? A charging Griz would be a good time for a failure?

Is that Performance to you?

Given how many of these actions are used for LE and military, and how many gunsmiths (including some mentioned earlier in the discussion) use them for the base for a custom rifle, I would say they can be considered performance. Reliability is excellent in these guns as many here have proclaimed. All because you had a bad experience with out does NOT make it defective design. It means you had a dud and NBC wants you to believe that it's a conspiracy that Remington is covering up. In addition, if I had a FACTORY unmodified rifle that was very new, clean and well maintained that had this issue I would contact Remington and ask what they would like to do. I'm certain they would want it back ASAP to investigate the problem. Seems like the owners with this issue never want to send it back to the manufacturer for examination.

If it's so simple to mass-produce a product and make it perfectly flawless for any use in any environment then I propose you offer your own design and manufacture it. I would be happy to help you build the prototype.

The point I 'm trying to make is it's a machine, and machines fail. Certain designs will lend themselves to certain successes and failures. You got the 1/50000. This doesn't make it a defective design. There are too many variables in the process to reliably attribute to design failure. Applying this type of logic is similar to those who say that removing guns will eliminate the problems. There will always be the 1/50000. If my any of my guns went off without a trigger pull I would probably get rid of it. (And probably be on here bitching that it's junk):)

[KegRiver]

Oddly enough, the only faulty gun I have personal experience with was a Remington Fieldmaster 22. But that had nothing to do with the trigger.
It's fault was the bore was not cantered in the Barrel. As a result it threw bullets hard to the right so far the sights could not be adjusted enough to bring it on target, even at twenty feet.

So far as the trigger issue, it would not scare me away from Remington.
But it would make me look to other makes first.

From my point of view, it's not the fault that concerns me, it's the denial.
To me it's clear that this was a known and easy to fix problem which Remington continues to deny and avoid fixing.

I see no reason to believe that the documentary I saw was entirely true and accurate. I expect that there was considerable slant to the story. Never-the-less, if the designer states that his design had a flaw, I believe HIM.

I do not see where he had anything to gain by making such a claim.
I can see where Remington had a great deal to gain by denying the problem.
Link that to the sheer number of complaints and I find the story very plausible.

So far as the claim that incompetent adjustment caused the problem, I don't buy that. I don't doubt that many if not all of those triggers had been adjusted. Given that the designer stated that one of the solutions Remington chose was to set the trigger pull to 10 pounds.

As I have said, I have considerable experience with gunsmithing myself.
I Know that the normal trigger pull is 4 to 6 lbs. I find 6 to be on the heavy side. 10lbs would in my opinion be intolerable. So to me, owners adjusting the trigger is the result of the problem, not the source of the problem.

[Okotokian]

If the problem is improper maintenance and not trigger design, then one would expect the number of accidental discharges per firearm produced to be the same for every brand, unless you could prove Remington buyers were somehow irresponsible pigs and other's weren't (oh shut up, I know what you were going to say there LOL).

All other things being equal if Remington has a higher rate then they have a design flaw they need to address. I didn't watch all the original video, and the rebuttal video makes no mention of failure rates versus other brands.

All the talk about "I don't depend on a safety, I'd never point a loaded firarm at anyone" is really irrelevant. I don't want my rifle firing accidently even if I have it pointed safely downrange. It should go off when I pull the trigger, PERIOD.

Would I be concerned if I were a Remington owner? Probably not. chances are pretty slim. Should a Remington executive or a class action lawyer be concerned? Absolutely.

[PoppaW]

[QUOTE=FunwithGuns;833304]Given how many of these actions are used for LE and militaryQUOTE]

Remember the military buys what is the cheapest on a bid. Not the best. Gunsmiths like the 700 because it is easy to work on and get a good gun from. A worked over Remington from a smith may only have the receiver and bolt original.

[gitrdun]

Oh and by the way, the head space on my .303 is atrocious.
Bad enough to lead to case head separation after a little as three reloads.
Would you like to know the exact measurement ? Would it make a difference ?

See I know a thing or two about gunsmithing myself. You should see the 6.5x55 I converted to a sporter. Mighty fine looking gun according to those who have seen it. I contoured the barrel, turned down the bolt handle, fitted a sporter stock and a scope.
That gun has taken a good number of bear since I let it go. The new owner is very happy with it.

There, that is what you were hoping for wasn't it, something you could point to and say, "shut up, you are a dangerous man! You are not a qualified gunsmith, you are a truck driver!"

So there you have it, I'm not licensed so I'm a dangerous man. Right?

Or am I ? Do you know what training I have had ? Do you know what licenses I have ? Did I say I was untrained or unlicensed ?

Now, shall we get back on topic. Remington. Remember?

No Keg, no one has said any of those negative things about you, especially the one about being a bad guy or dangerous, I wouldn't have you on my friend list if that were the case. Let's leave at the fact that we simply agree to disagree and that's that. And if you ready back some of my previous posts on the topic, you'll see that I stated the Remington does have an obligation to repair the problem if one exists. To those that suspect a defective trigger mechanism, simply have it replaced, and to ALL, just follow the ten commandments of safe firearm handling, whether it be with a Remington or any other trigger. :)

[D-Cell]

how very true.scary part is how many people trust their lives with safetys.scarier yet is how many people teach their kids to trust their lives with safetys.what happened to always point your gun in a safe direction to take safety off.guns dont kill people,stupiidty does.

Exactally. Treat every firearm if it were loaded (fail), point muzzle in a safe direction (fail) and something deadly happens.

Hunt with the bolt open until you are ready to shoot and have the muzzle pointed in a safe direction always life is good. Never trust safties.

Drop the gun, or loose muzzle control and expect the worst.

I am pretty sure they are a problem rifle, if it looks like a duck....

I am pretty sure the rifle itself doesnt kill people.... Unsafe use does.

Pointing a firearm loaded or supposidly not in a unsafe direction anything could happen, logic says so.

Remington knows the likelyhood of a accident happening is low so instead of fixing the problem it is cheaper to pay off the odd lawsuit. Because that is how companies do buisness, what is the bigger profit. It was documented as such within the company, and the inventer of the Walker trigger group for the 700.

On the other hand allot of Americans (or people in general) and proper gun safety should not be metioned in the same sentence. Not to say there isnt alot of responsible Americans. It only takes a couple to make the whole works look bad.

[D-Cell]

easy fix. If your gun has problems trash it or get it fixed. If it doesnt then use it. I dont use a safety. Never have as i always thought they were unreliable. I keep the bolt open about halfway. I use a remington m700 XCR and never had problems although i did see the show. I believe the problems are a mix of unsafe operaters and a faulty trigger mechanism. One accident happened while cleaning it with the safety on. i mean come on how is that even remotely considered safe.

Exactally!!!

[pickrel pat]

heres another.

[Leeper]

The problem, as indentified by Jack Belk, was the inclusion of the sear connector in the design. This is all fine and one can rant about how Remington should have altered the design except for one thing; Jack Belk is wrong. The sear connector, although it is a superfluous part, is not the root cause of the rifle firing on safety release. It has never been demonstrated to be the cause but it was recognized as being unnecessary as part of the design early on. It did offer some minor benefits from a manufacturing standpoint, however, and Remington stuck with it when they should have let it go. Still, the fact remains, it is not the cause of the trigger malfunctions which have been identified. The manufacturing defect which was the root cause of the malfunction was identified and addressed by Remington in the late seventies and early eighties.
As far as the documentaries are concerned, both sides have their own axe to grind and the resultant sparks do nothing but obscure the facts. Leeper

[skidderman]

What some are saying then is that it's ok for the gun to go off without pulling the trigger as long as it is pointed in a safe direction. I would like to see the reaction when that happens.

[catnthehat]

What some are saying then is that it's ok for the gun to go off without pulling the trigger as long as it is pointed in a safe direction. I would like to see the reaction when that happens.

When that happened and it was attributed to a worn or misadjusted trigger it was fixed.
Only one Remington but I have seen it several times over the years where the trigger/ safety system was at fault.
In every instance it wad the trigger that had been adjusted or wad worn .
And no, that is not what is being conveyed.
What people are saying is IF there is a malfunction be it operator or mechanical , if the firearm is printed on a safe direction them injury or death will be averted
.
In that same vein it can be misconstrued that you are saying it is okay to Point a gun at someone safely if we have the safety on, which I am sure you You are not advocating .:thinking-006: