Do unions have a place in Alberta? What is your opinion?

[greylynx]

Do unions have a place in the civil service?

Do unions have a place in the regular work place.

What do you think?

[rugatika]

Not in the civil service.

Possibly in private business, but frankly many unions abuse their powers for the benefit of union bosses rather than members but some unions are able to strike an appropriate balance and function fairly well alongside management.

With labour laws etc, I really think unions are a bit of an anachronism.

I would never chose to be a member of a union...but that's just me.

[ishootbambi]

no!

[crazyfish]

I say YES, theres lots of guys that would be treated very poorly or unfairly if they didn't know all they're rights! 20 years of construction as a skilled craftsman with pride in his work. I've seen lots of good and bad along the way, but i prefer to work union.Also ensures very good training for some fields of work ! A union site in construction is always a safer one !

On the other hand,:thinking-006: i have seen where some individuals get to know the system and really abuse it to they're advantage and everyone around them has to pick up the slack. I can see where some of the stereotypes come from, but in general, it's a good way to earn a decent living !:)

[bigdaddy37]

Unions had a larger place when labor laws were weak and employers felt they could walk over everyone. Times have changed. Laws are much stronger and most employers value their employees and treat them well (I did say most, because I see some employers that still think it's 1890)

I believe unions are not as necessary today. I feel they bread mediocrity and complacency and don't allow those with ambition to grow. In a union environment, seniority seems to count more than work quality. It seems you only get to move forward in a union shop when those with more seniority either die or retire. A young person with drive, ambition and skill gets kept "under the thumb" of the old guard. Regularily do I hear "stop working so hard, you'll make the rest of us look bad".

On the other side of the coin, because of a union, an employer has difficulty getting rid of a poor employee. They become "protected" and the other employees know that person is no good but continues to keep their job. When this occurs, the good employees eventually say "what am I doing, I bust my tail for nothing, he does nothing and keeps his job", thus creating a toxic environment of mediocrity and complacency.

I know I've over simplified things, but this has been my experience with them.

[pikergolf]

I'm going to say that the vast majority of the safety stuff that's in place now is because of unions. Large Co. and Gov. don't give two fiddles about their workers. Most would run you into the ground and then shed you when your wore out. For the life of me I don't understand how workers can tear down unionized work forces because the unionized workers have it better. Why not aspire to having a better life and form a union rather than try and tear down someone that has it good. Government fostered the public service unions when they first came out because they wanted business to follow along, but they didn't and now the average working stiff villainizes unions because they don't have what the unions have. It's your choice to not work for a union, just like it's the union members choice to work for one. I fully believe that the patch is not unionized because workers were making more money working to many hours and not resting long enough, they didn't want a bunch of rules to hinder how much money they made. But in the end it costs in health and family issues. All you have to do is check out construction sights, union all the saftey stuff is there people get breaks etc. Non union some of them are a free for all and the owner has still managed to convince his staff how bad unions are? Flame away

[hal53]

They were very much needed in the day...70-80 years ago, when workers had no rights...as usual the pendulum swings too far the other way!...$$$ Unions these days are a way for a lazy man to remain employed see...GM retired employees payments ...sad,, glad my tax dollars went to pay for that fiasco!!! PS...lot of "oilpatch trash" don't make the money per hour that some guy does leaning on a shovel for the city all day...but they have some pride in what they do....

[glen1971]

Unions have a place, and have done alot of good in the work force, but I think they need a bit of revamping.. There are too many loop holes and ways to stop people from thinking and actually doing their job.. In some instances, trained tradesmen are not even allowed to do what they went to school for, and are treated like it is their first day in the work force.

Not speaking of ALL the unions, but there are some members that know the ins and outs of their union. They know how to hide in, an manipulate, the system. They know that no matter how little they do, or how little they even show up, they can't be fired.

If they could get the production up by half, while maintiaining their safety record, more places wouldn't cringe when the word "Union" comes up. Before I get hung, I am not saying EVERYONE does cringe, but lots do... From workers to clients...

[Off in the Bushes]

Yes unions are need as much today as they where 70 years ago. In years gone bye workers needed unions to protect your health/ safety and rights in the workforce. Now they are need so that large corporations don't walk all over you and move the manufactureing etc out of the country for the share holders can get a extra 10 cent on the share price. With out unions there would be no middle class. Large corparation are not going to had out raises and benefits because it is the right thing to do.
If you get a chance read "Laying it on the Line" by Buzz Hargrove, I think it might change your prespective unions, or if you are pro it will help solidify your stand with unions.

[Cattle Dog]

Unions were beneficial in the early stages of the industrial revelution, when 12 yr old kids were pushing small coal cars in english mines.

Union threats of work stopage to correct safety concerns have been beneficial in some cases.

USSR found out that if everybody belongs to the union of one sort or another, then that means there is no-one remaining to blackmail, and go on strike against!;
becaused they would be striking against themselves.

USSR also found out that if you pay everybody the same wage, that means the guy doing hard manual work shoveling the ditch gets paid the same as the deadbeat leaning on the shovel !


So now, the highpaid blackmailing unions go on strike, say teachers for example, (and hold the students and taxpayers hostage intil they get their raise): It causes a higher upper and middle class, and much more poverty in the lower class.

Most unions are grossly overpaid; ie longshoremen, quebec judges, mail sorters.
I dislike very much anyone blackmailing their employer, when it was the employer who gave them
the job in the first place.

[Off in the Bushes]

I dislike very much anyone blackmailing their employer, when it was the employer who gave them
the job in the first place.

It is never blackmailing when the employeer agrees to it.

[chasingtail]

No to unions, and on the other side no foreign workers to push down wages.

[catnthehat]

We have no strike- no lockout agreements in place in the building trades unions.

I've been a union member most of my adult life, and with the carpenter's union for 27 years.
The building trades unions are set up differently than some, there is no seniority, you can be fired, and we are all accountable.
the carpenters BTW, have been leading the way in such instances as alcohol and drug testing before taking a dispatch, safety in the construction and carpentry industry, and that Alberta Regional Council of Carpenters and Allied Workers has the most in depth scaffolding apprenticeship anywhere.

WE are the ones that have been pushing to see carpentry and scaffolding as provincial mandatory trades, something which this Government doesn't seem to think is needed.
Think about this for a bit:
A welder needs a ticket to weld a pipe on top of a concrete superstructure 100 feet i the air, but the carpenter who built the superstructure the pipe sits on , and the scaffolder that built the scaffold that the welder is standing on does NOT need a ticket!!
Something is very wrong with that picture, and we as a union have been trying to change that for years.

Our work places are safe because we have demanded them to be and hold our members accountable to work safe as well.
We have lots of rights, but ALSO have lots of Obligations as union members,and the main own I am always preaching to my members as their business agent is to give an honest day's pay for an honest dollar earned.
We have a good relationship with the contractors we are signatory to for the most part, and even the ones that we don't , I make sure I treat them with respect when I am talking to them , and expect the same back.

After all, that is one of the important things in life IMHO.
Cat

[chasingtail]

I don't work in a union, and most of the companies in the oil patch go overboard with safety, to the point where even the important stuff isn't taken seriously anymore.
I wouldn't mind unions so much if the union leaders were not so corrupt (long history of mafia involvment) and didn't support marxist communist left wing agenda in every other aspect outside the work place.

[The Elkster]

I don't like everything unions do but then again I don't like everything companies and bosses do either. Unions have their place and without them its only a matter of time before we revert back in time. Its not like companies and bosses won't do questionable things if they aren't held to task. If we don't learn from the past we are destined to repeat. Nothing has changed as far as human nature is concerned. Don't let the good times put your guard down too much eh;)

[ksteed17]

We have no strike- no lockout agreements in place in the building trades unions.

I've been a union member most of my adult life, and with the carpenter's union for 27 years.
The building trades unions are set up differently than some, there is no seniority, you can be fired, and we are all accountable.
the carpenters BTW, have been leading the way in such instances as alcohol and drug testing before taking a dispatch, safety in the construction and carpentry industry, and that Alberta Regional Council of Carpenters and Allied Workers has the most in depth scaffolding apprenticeship anywhere.

WE are the ones that have been pushing to see carpentry and scaffolding as provincial mandatory trades, something which this Government doesn't seem to think is needed.
Think about this for a bit:
A welder needs a ticket to weld a pipe on top of a concrete superstructure 100 feet i the air, but the carpenter who built the superstructure the pipe sits on , and the scaffolder that built the scaffold that the welder is standing on does NOT need a ticket!!
Something is very wrong with that picture, and we as a union have been trying to change that for years.

Our work places are safe because we have demanded them to be and hold our members accountable to work safe as well.
We have lots of rights, but ALSO have lots of Obligations as union members,and the main own I am always preaching to my members as their business agent is to give an honest day's pay for an honest dollar earned.
We have a good relationship with the contractors we are signatory to for the most part, and even the ones that we don't , I make sure I treat them with respect when I am talking to them , and expect the same back.

After all, that is one of the important things in life IMHO.
Cat

i hear ya cat, im a ticketed plumber/gasfitter and my wife has to have her ticket to cut your hair but any joe can build a house! Now i know theres alot of good builders out there but i also know of alot of summer builders(school teachers) who should not be allowed to swing a hammer but every summer are flipping homes, it doesnt make sense to me

[winged1]

Nothing has changed as far as human nature is concerned. Don't let the good times put your guard down too much eh

You know it. Would there be a lot of crying and midnight meetings when a slow economy had employers ducking on pensions, health benefits, and thier nephews replacing your hours.

I've worked both sides of the fence and love the dynamics. There will always be a place for organized labour.

[bobalong]

I do not presently work in a union but I have in the past. My observation of employees with bad work ethics, all falls back on the managers (out of scope, non union). Managers have been reluctant to document poor performance and neglect to outline clear expectations of what is expected of an employee or to offer training/coaching that will help the employee. They tolerate poor performance for years some time and document nothing, then after two or three years they finally want to fire an employee. The union goes back and reviews the employees performance reports and the managers have documented nothing negative and in fact on numerous occasions have given satisfactory or better performance reviews in the past. Their are usually lots of controls in place to ensure that satisfactory performance is displayed by all employees, the only way an employee "can work the system" is if he has a manager that does not have the balz to do anything about it. Too many managers have not got the balz to confront employees with bad performance, instead they ignore it expecting it to get better by it self. I believe an employee should have a good work ethic on their own, if they have any pride in their work or themselves at all, unfortunately that is not always the case.

[jack88]

After being on the paying end of a turnaround, NO, NO, NO!

[So Nova *!%]

does your private sector job have
tool allowance
training allowance
rrsp shared contributions?
cost of living adjustments
I would love a union job southern Alberta just kills the unions and we can't all live in FtMac
jump on unions all you like but at least a union employee can cope better than I can with inflation.
My wage is not artificial it is in line with my trade, what is artificial is the price of moving food to market, mortgages, taxes and the like.
When the Gov't raised the MINIMUM wage to better the lives of the severely impoverished Did your wages go up? probably not! but does that not mean that the value of your contribution to society is now worth less?
just my opinion though

[Tundra Monkey]

Bobolong nailed it IMO.

I work union. I like the fact that things are "laid out" and keeps things on an even field. It is no different than working in the private sector....you show up at work and you work.

Once a month the guys that aren't normally allowed out get out for a beer with the boyz under the guise of a "meeting" so that's a plus :)

tm

[Wolf Medicine]

Have many higher level hunters from the U.S. And other countries. Most of them where unions have been long established.. The unions no longer work for the greater good of the worker. But babysit the useless ones. and there own interests. Astounding how liable the employers are for benefit plans and pensions with no say in how those funds are invested.. And if they tank due to the unions poor management those employers are on the hook to make it up. SO realistically the government standards and employers wanting to keep quality people in their firms trumps any perceived benefits the unions can offer. If they stayed specific to A trade and were really doing the things they were meant to do then I do believe they are of some benefit. But realistically there is little need for them in today's marketplace. Unless you are looking to be A freeloader on the backs of others. And there is more then enough of that in today's society. If you can do your job well there is always A job for you. and the safety things you want will be provided, or legislated already for the most part..

WM.

[Tundra Monkey]

But realistically there is little need for them in today's marketplace. Unless you are looking to be A freeloader on the backs of others.

Brutal man....I work with a ton of great guys who are top shelf in their fields.

You should read Bobalong's post.

tm

[firegod74]

I used to work in a Union mill, and now I don't. Its just the way life works.
I see many posts that say that unions are no longer needed. Allot of those labor laws are there because of unions and their lobbyists, and I would hazard to guess that if unions were goen big buisiness would try to erode those laws as much as possible.
Also to say that unions breed lazy workers, If that mill were still open I would pit 90% of the people against any other work group. They were honest workers that were proud of the job they did. And most people finished the day sweating and bone tired. And 10 buck an hour richer than the non union mill in town.
I once went to a union busting course. The main way to keep a union out? Treat your emplyees with respect and dignity. That is why I think unions still have a place. They keep everybody else honest.
I no longer work union, but have no fear of the evil they are protrayed as.

[Jimboy]

All wealth comes from labour , and to labour it should belong , Unions are just working people looking out for their fellow workers , WE NEED TO UNITE NOW MORE THAN EVER , immigration is being promoted by our Govts and big business to bust unions , so big business can profit more off the backs of cheap alian labour such as mexico , and Asian countrys , why do you think gm has a plant down there in Mexico now.

[So Nova *!%]

That is why I think unions still have a place. They keep everybody else honest.


that is the truth, treat someone like they help put food on your table and they probably will. treat them like they are a dime a dozen and wonder why you can't keep quality employees
I like the idea of being held to some standard as to what is expected "laid on the line" and a documented history with a company
I believe those that have gone before have paved the way and should be honored for their contribution to society as a whole
Worked for a guy in Edmonton for a bit, he was paying $2/ hour more than anyone else I had worked for, his reason ...If I don't compete with the union everybody just goes to them
as to free loading , you ever have one of those days at work where there really was nothing to do? how tired were you at the end of that LONG LONG day?
I'd rather swing a pick all day than to have to "pretend " to work now I wish everybody was like that but I guess someone needs to be a politician right?
JK :sign0068:
unions are needed

[omega50]

The pendulum swings.
Whenever abuses of labour become rampant then I see a need.

When the union becomes a tool to be petty and spiteful against management then it becomes the abuser.

I worked in a factory in WPG in the 70's and served as recording secretary for the Steelworkers Union.

Guys would sit on the smoke bench for a break and throw some oily rag on the floor as a boss was making his rounds. If the boss bent down to pick up the rag(safety hazard) then my brudders in the union would all file grievances for "Work by excluded persons"



It became one long ugly game.

Treat people fairly-pay a fair wage and try not to stand on the guy's nuts too hard and the incentive to unionize is minimized.


Profit is the difference between revenue and expenses. That statement applies to both Management and Workers.

[eastcoast]

I have worked both sides of the fence and I would prefer unions, they are a balance at work if the business says they aren't making any profit the union hires a cpa and looks it over,I was union through 2 negotiating time the first time the company wasn't making much money so the union backed off and we got cost of living, 3 years later the company said they weren't making any money again,the workers and union knew it wasn't true and hired a cpa and found out the company was lying,we got a decent raise that time 4% a year and less payable benefits,so unions have give and take companies don't,without unions today in places like mcmurray it would be flooded with foreign workers and we as albertans would suffer because of it,plus union worksites are much safer most of the problems in mcmurray have happened at cnrl the only non union plant there, coincidence?

[The Elkster]

The one thing you hear often is the "mob style" actions of a union. I would like to say that on a labour level that is the only way to have any real say. An average worker with no directoral control is a minnow in the ocean even though he is very necessary to that business and its success. You have a select few at the top that have all the decision making rights and control of all the money. Not saying thats bad it just is what it is. There has to be a check to that kind of power. If you live most places outside AB where employment and venture cash isn't so plentiful you start to see the uglier side of the top brass. Fortunately in AB companies can easily afford to pay decent...but rest assured AB is an anomoly.

[crawfy]

Without some type of Labour movement, do people not think that all that was gained in the past from Unions, work weeks, working conditions, holidays, hours, days off, benefits, wages etc, would be torn apart and lost by corporate greed and I would not hope that people would think that goverments would protect the working person. Unions have their place even in todays society. I work for a large Canadian company and I could not imagine how bad working conditions and pay would be if we did not have a Union standing strong behind us.

[catnthehat]

The pendulum swings.
Whenever abuses of labour become rampant then I see a need.

When the union becomes a tool to be petty and spiteful against management then it becomes the abuser.

I worked in a factory in WPG in the 70's and served as recording secretary for the Steelworkers Union.

Guys would sit on the smoke bench for a break and throw some oily rag on the floor as a boss was making his rounds. If the boss bent down to pick up the rag(safety hazard) then my brudders in the union would all file grievances for "Work by excluded persons"



It became one long ugly game.

Treat people fairly-pay a fair wage and try not to stand on the guy's nuts too hard and the incentive to unionize is minimized.


Profit is the difference between revenue and expenses. That statement applies to both Management and Workers.

If one of our union members pulled crap like that he would be shown my door FAST!!
The first thing that needs to be done in a grievance situation is to get statements from both sides, and our members know if they string me a line of crap I'll find out aout it right quick.
I support our members totally, but at the same time if I cannot win a grievance ( and that one would not be won by a building trades union today) I won't file it.
However, there are many insitancs where the contractor has been less than honest, and we have won many grievances in front of the labour board - more than we have lost......
Cat

[Freedom55]

...about union employees, but unless you have a specific beef about a specific individual, then some of you are blowing a lot of regurgitated pap that your grandpappy said or that you read in some anti-USSR publication written by some flag waving USA congressman.

Someone mentioned civic workers leaning on a shovel all day and drawing a (high) wage. How is it that you know that factoid? Did you stand on the sidewalk all day to watch? Was that a productive day for you? Or did you drive by a crew working on a water main break at 20k over the speed limit (most of you also proclaim the right to drive as fast as you like in any situation including a zone where you must by law be travelling at 20k under the limit) and momentarily glimpse someone looking idle? Did those workers curse at you out of fear for their well-being or for being spat at? How do you know that their wages are high? Did you never have a duck the fog moment in your career?

Perhaps you were on the dole at the time and you resented them because they had to work for the same pay that you were receiving in the mail? Or do your biases come from the ridiculous notion that YOU are paying the wages of those workers?

Maybe your commute was interupted and delayed by some mindless paving crew or freight train operator that forced you to detour, thus further interupting your right to get to your destination before anyone else, causing you to blame someone other than yourself for your poor planning.

Someone else mentioned union workers being grossly overpaid. Is that because you are grossly underpaid and can not get a union job? (although for the life of me I can't see the relationship between a ditch digger and a Quebec judge) How much is grossly? I remember when Rod Sykes was the mayor of Calgary (January 1978) and he was quoted as saying "...city workers do not need color tv or an automatic washing machine. My mother got by with an old wringer washer..." Do you buy that line at all? BTW Sykes was tossed out and Ralph Klein replaced him soon after. Ralph loved city workers. And rig workers. And farmers. And anybody who paid their taxes and bought him a beer from time to time.

Maybe some of you have the misguided idea that city workers are drawing a high wage (like any of you would turn that offer down) and receiving a generous benefits package as well.

Maybe you are miffed that a bunch of illiterate underachievers can prosper in the high speed world you live in, particulatly this union shmoe that knows a thing or two about grammar, spelling and sentence structure.

Maybe it is the 4 day work week that gets you all riled up. Civic workers get all the good camping spots because they are able to pitch their tents on Thursday night.

Do you resent the fact that I slept in my own bed every night while you roughed it in a bush camp for poor wages and lousy working conditions?

Here's the rub. I was able to make the day before my 55th birthday the last day of my union life and my crappy city job (and any job is crappy if you do it for 30 years), and retire to live and fish on the half pay that I get now. A pension that I funded myself, along with the subsidy that my employer kicked in that made up for the wages that they did not have to pay over those years. And as a retired worker, there is no subsidy now and my benefits package is coming wholey out of my pocket.

Yes it is true. I am a retired city worker that put up with this kind of commentary for more than 33 years, and worse. But my houses are paid for and my children are well educated and my only bill is when the revenuers come knocking every April. Plus I can go fishing every day.

And by the way. Being Alberta born and raised I know a lot of rednecks who either have a wife working in a civic job, albeit indoors, or wish that they did!

I guess that means that I believe there is a place for the unionized workers in society, and we don't need a bunch of blue collar workers imitating the chattering classes in their attempt to belittle us and our work.

Freedom (nearly 57 and loving it)

[Beerfish]

Yes of course unions have a place in Alberta and for the civil service. That doesn't mean that there aren't bad agreements signed that favour either the unionized employees or the management group negotiating with the union. For the most part these agreements work reasonably well, being generous when times are good and there are other alternatives for employment and being much less generous when cash is tight and there are few alternatives.

[eastcoast]

everybody likes to pick on the teachers union and sometimes there is good reason for it,but I for one would never want to be a teacher,listening to whiny kids with their winey parents,being crowded in classrooms etc,going to school for 4 years and being 40-50 grand in debt to make 50 grand a year doesn't add up to me.

[So Nova *!%]

everybody likes to pick on the teachers union and sometimes there is good reason for it,but I for one would never want to be a teacher,listening to whiny kids with their winey parents,being crowded in classrooms etc,going to school for 4 years and being 40-50 grand in debt to make 50 grand a year doesn't add up to me.

yup lets hear it for those overpaid union employees

[Dakota369]

Not any place. In this day and age of provincial and federally legislated laws protecting the right of workers, as well as the laws in regard to safety (which I might add are in place due to the mentality of litigation in this country, not due to unions as was suggested earlier) there is no place for unions. Unions do way more damage to our economy then any good these days. Unions do only one thing in today's day and age, and that is drive up the cost of manufacturing to the point that it is impossible for any Canadian or American and to some extent British (the birthplace of unions) manufacturers to be able to manufacture anything and be competitive on the world market. When the cost of manufacture is elevated due to high labor costs, of course many many manufacturers are going to set up shop in foreign country's to be able to compete on the world market! Except for certain areas where the production/manufacture is location dictated (ie the oilfield) manufacturers can and do relocate taking all the actual manufacturing jobs, as well as the spin off positions generated by a thriving manufacturing sector (eg. Lunch Truck, etc.) to other country's where labor costs are still reasonable. You have unions to thank for this loss of employment..... Ever wonder why cars are so expensive in North America??? Average cost per hour for an autoworker including benefits to the big manufacturer's, approx $65.00/hour. To put this in perspective, the average cost per hour to a Chinese auto manufacturer for their labor..... $3.00/hour. Not hard to see why the up and coming trend to buy Chinese and Indian made autos is so attractive. It's not that they are made better, but many are made just as well, and cost 1/10 the price, and this is all due to unions.
Unions destroy work ethics as well, as they will protect a bad worked, even one who is dangerous to the bitter end costing the company more then it is worth to get rid of him/her. Provincial unions are the worst........ when my ex wife worked for the AUPE, she was reprimanded and told to sit at her desk and read a book or play computer games (at $18.00/hour of your and my tax dollars)......... her crime you ask........ as a receptionist she became bored and went around the office and asked if there was anyone who needed help with their paperwork, and was promptly reported for trying to take away other union members work........ just sick..........

And yes I have worked in union places and hated every second of it. It galled me to support (financially) an organization that protected the deadsticks that I had to work with (and who more often created more work then they did) from dismissal. It really galled me that I could not opt out of being in the union and was forced to pay dues, for no real benefit................:fighting0030::fighting0074 :

Lets hear your thoughts!

[pikergolf]

Not any place. In this day and age of provincial and federally legislated laws protecting the right of workers, as well as the laws in regard to safety (which I might add are in place due to the mentality of litigation in this country, not due to unions as was suggested earlier) there is no place for unions. Unions do way more damage to our economy then any good these days. Unions do only one thing in today's day and age, and that is drive up the cost of manufacturing to the point that it is impossible for any Canadian or American and to some extent British (the birthplace of unions) manufacturers to be able to manufacture anything and be competitive on the world market. When the cost of manufacture is elevated due to high labor costs, of course many many manufacturers are going to set up shop in foreign country's to be able to compete on the world market! Except for certain areas where the production/manufacture is location dictated (ie the oilfield) manufacturers can and do relocate taking all the actual manufacturing jobs, as well as the spin off positions generated by a thriving manufacturing sector (eg. Lunch Truck, etc.) to other country's where labor costs are still reasonable. You have unions to thank for this loss of employment..... Ever wonder why cars are so expensive in North America??? Average cost per hour for an autoworker including benefits to the big manufacturer's, approx $65.00/hour. To put this in perspective, the average cost per hour to a Chinese auto manufacturer for their labor..... $3.00/hour. Not hard to see why the up and coming trend to buy Chinese and Indian made autos is so attractive. It's not that they are made better, but many are made just as well, and cost 1/10 the price, and this is all due to unions.
Unions destroy work ethics as well, as they will protect a bad worked, even one who is dangerous to the bitter end costing the company more then it is worth to get rid of him/her. Provincial unions are the worst........ when my ex wife worked for the AUPE, she was reprimanded and told to sit at her desk and read a book or play computer games (at $18.00/hour of your and my tax dollars)......... her crime you ask........ as a receptionist she became bored and went around the office and asked if there was anyone who needed help with their paperwork, and was promptly reported for trying to take away other union members work........ just sick..........

And yes I have worked in union places and hated every second of it. It galled me to support (financially) an organization that protected the deadsticks that I had to work with (and who more often created more work then they did) from dismissal. It really galled me that I could not opt out of being in the union and was forced to pay dues, for no real benefit................:fighting0030::fighting0074 :

Lets hear your thoughts!

I"ll betcha 10 bucks the car you're driving isn't made in India or China!:)

[LAPUA$SLIM]

have you ever worked union?

[Dakota369]

I"ll betcha 10 bucks the car you're driving isn't made in India or China!:)

No, it is not new either, but but one in the fleet is made in Japan, and the next one may well be............

Next??

[eastcoast]

yup lets hear it for those overpaid union employees


so you think going 40-50 grand a year is overpaid after 4 years of a university degree and maybe 50 grand in debt,when I know people who drive a forklift and make that much?

[crazyfish]

[QUOTE=omega50;843041]I worked in a factory in WPG in the 70's and served as recording secretary for the Steelworkers Union.QUOTE]

THe 70's .... thats 40 years ago, and the entire workplace has changed since then. Safety and "due dilligence" are there because people have died at work ! Safety rules are generally written with the blood of others , after the fact, after someones hurt or died ! Workers still die at work , but alot lower frequency ! Safety , i like that i can go to work with a great bunch of guys , who all look out for each other, and pride themselves on going home at the end of the day with 10 fingers, 10 toes and a head still firmly attached at the shoulders ! I have a daily requirement as a supervisor to ensure my guys have a safe environment to work in for the day. If not I can personally be fined and/or put in jail !!!The newest OH+S regulations are very clear on responsibilities ...and punishments!

I work Union , yes, But I also do most of my work right now on commercial work sites, half of my work i have to bid on, against non-union companies as well,and i need to be on target at the end of the day ! The lazy guys hear it from their peers, they won't work twice as hard so the other guy can watch ! An honest day's pay for an honest day's work !!! The funny thing with the recession is that alot of the lazy guys found pink slips , and the quality tradesmen who have pride in their work have'nt had any down time !(generalization, but close )

Union guys can , and do get fired. With just cause and documentation , very easy to do ! If an employee needs to be written-up for an infaction, i do it! I've also written myself up for isssues when it was apparent that i could have better dealt with a situation, or missed something that was required. Like Bobalong said, there are lots of supervisors that won't , or don't document issues. I think this is because the supervision would have to explain why that situation became in the first place, and it's easier to hope it goes away than to take responsibility for his own actions in the first place !

[BrownBear416]

The negatives of working union far outweigh the positives imo..

Working Union for 7 years did nothing for me but cost money and the way they protect those that dont want to work is sickening.The non union facilitys in our company were always happier,made more money,got bigger bonus`s and were treated way better by the company.

When the mill closed down and we needed the union the most to negotiate our rights and future they turned around and stabbed us in the back..

[catnthehat]

Dakota369, not all unions are set up the way you think, and to say that the government is responsible for bringing in safety rules is actually not all cut amnd dried.
Employers like Aluma/brand , PCL, and safway Scaffold services to name but a few, have a much higher level of safety than the rovincial Government dictates, simply because the Government standard is lacking in many respects.
I am talking construction and plant Maint. however, not automobile manufacturing.
My Regional concil also has several union manufacxturing shops however, in the trailer and window sector, and before they were unionized the employess were harrased, overworked, amnd grossy underpayed to the point where they could not afford the very trailers they were building - THAT is just not right.
Now they have a pension plan, better wages and working conditi0ns, and for some reason the company production ratios have gone up and there lost time injuries have gone down!
not sure where all the hate is coming from, I never hated non- union workers myself, and if a man or woman does not want to join the ranks, fine for them.
Cat

[So Nova *!%]

so you think going 40-50 grand a year is overpaid after 4 years of a university degree and maybe 50 grand in debt,when I know people who drive a forklift and make that much?

WHOA!! fifty grand to put up with kids from hundreds of different backgrounds, ethnicities, home lives ?
you read me soooo wrong on that!
That my friend is what they call sarcasm

[pikergolf]

yup lets hear it for those overpaid union employees
So how come we think of unionized workers as overpaid, and not the none unionized as underpaid?

[Okotokian]

There are a ton of things I don't like about unions, but it's hard to say whether they should be gone or not. Remember, even if you are in a non-union shop, unions still influence how you are treated. Your employer makes sure you are treated reasonably and paid within spitting-distance of unionized workers so that you don't opt for a union. The threat actually helps you.

I just think a lot of them are out of touch with the real desires of their members.

[catnthehat]

yup lets hear it for those overpaid union employees
So how come we think of unionized workers as overpaid, and not the none unionized as underpaid?

That's a very good question!
the fact is, in the building trades anyway, the Union wages drive the non- unon wages, not the other way around!
So if yur raktes went down through Government legislated roll backs, so would the non- union rates drop even further, but i doubt if the contactors rates would drop very much.....
Cat

[Okotokian]

The non union facilitys in our company were always happier,made more money,got bigger bonus`s and were treated way better by the company.


And why do you think that is???? I work in HR in a company with union and non-union employees. A company keeps it that way so the non-union workers won't unionize. So you got the benefit of a union without having to pay dues.

[catnthehat]

There are a ton of things I don't like about unions, but it's hard to say whether they should be gone or not. Remember, even if you are in a non-union shop, unions still influence how you are treated. Your employer makes sure you are treated reasonably and paid within spitting-distance of unionized workers so that you don't opt for a union. The threat actually helps you.

I just think a lot of them are out of touch with the real desires of their members.
The thing is, the members ARE the union, and our representatives sole existance is to make sure pour colective agrements ae being honoured - by both sides!:)
You are right about employers trying to keep the wages comparable .
If all companies treated their workers fairly, and took care of them afely, there very well would be no need for unions - such is not the case.....
Cat

[Dakota369]

Dakota369, not all unions are set up the way you think, and to say that the government is responsible for bringing in safety rules is actually not all cut amnd dried.
Employers like Aluma/brand , PCL, and safway Scaffold services to name but a few, have a much higher level of safety than the rovincial Government dictates, simply because the Government standard is lacking in many respects.
I am talking construction and plant Maint. however, not automobile manufacturing.
My Regional concil also has several union manufacxturing shops however, in the trailer and window sector, and before they were unionized the employess were harrased, overworked, amnd grossy underpayed to the point where they could not afford the very trailers they were building - THAT is just not right.
Now they have a pension plan, better wages and working conditi0ns, and for some reason the company production ratios have gone up and there lost time injuries have gone down!
not sure where all the hate is coming from, I never hated non- union workers myself, and if a man or woman does not want to join the ranks, fine for them.
Cat

Never said I hated union workers, some of my best friends are, but I do hate Unions and what as a group they have done to labor ethics, as well as the damage done to our economy here in North America, directly (In my opinion) attributable to unions.

[catnthehat]

Never said I hated union workers, some of my best friends are, but I do hate Unions and what as a group they have done to labor ethics, as well as the damage done to our economy here in North America, directly (In my opinion) attributable to unions.

But the workers ARE the union!:confused:
every man and woman that is in the union office as a rep.
was at one time on the tools, and may be again !
Most of our delegates in fact are in the field on the tools.
Cat

[eastcoast]

There are a ton of things I don't like about unions, but it's hard to say whether they should be gone or not. Remember, even if you are in a non-union shop, unions still influence how you are treated. Your employer makes sure you are treated reasonably and paid within spitting-distance of unionized workers so that you don't opt for a union. The threat actually helps you.

I just think a lot of them are out of touch with the real desires of their members.

that exact thing happened to me a few years ago,and I don't think alot of non union workers realize it happens so often,I was working for a local paving company in edmonton I think in 08 when the oe955 brought in a good raise for their guys,being that we were in competition with them they gave everybody working there the exact same raise as the union guys got.

[BrownBear416]

The thing is, the members ARE the union, and our representatives sole existance is to make sure pour colective agrements ae being honoured - by both sides!:)
You are right about employers trying to keep the wages comparable .
If all companies treated their workers fairly, and took care of them afely, there very well would be no need for unions - such is not the case.....Cat

Cat do you really believe that this is a very large percentage of companies anymore ...

I always felt that the company always had such a hatred for the union that the members in the end always got screwed over anyways..

[pikergolf]

Never said I hated union workers, some of my best friends are, but I do hate Unions and what as a group they have done to labor ethics, as well as the damage done to our economy here in North America, directly (In my opinion) attributable to unions.

I think our insatiable appetite for the cheapest available product has damaged our economy far more than unions could ever hope to. When Japanese cars first hit the market they were junk, as quality went up so did the price, same for the Korean cars. Everything I have ever bought that was made in China or India is junk, it can't not be. People that put out products that cheaply don't give a rats butt about you or your health, workers are basically working in sweat shops, and you hold that up as a model to aspire to. I avoid anything made in china as best I can because I know it's going to break or wear out before its time. And the materials are probably toxic on top of it.

[crazyfish]

I will agree that there are times and places that unions have not been a good thing for a site or situation. Expensive , last year i paid just over 2K in union dues, and probably received 3 times that back in other ways, dental plans( family of 5) almost all covered, medication , glasses if required, and have a pension plan. (hopefully still there when i retire! )

The Contruction unions are a good thing . They have a large , stable, well trained, work force of skilled tradesmen that is able to assure large corporations that they can come to alberta and build a 6 billion dollar plant. Interesting how many non-union companies (ledcor etc) have set up "job shops" so they can try to convince the big companies that they have suitable manpower to compete with the unions! Same thing different name !

There are bad apples in every part of society, unions, non-unions etc. It's funny how the stereo types are so much stronger when unions are involved. Yes the mob was involved way back when, thats not the case today. Yes they had big walk outs and strikes, we can't strike anymore ! They will stand up and negotiate a fair contract for all. There are lots of guys who would never be able to negotiate a fair deal for themselves if they had to !

[Dakota369]

But the workers ARE the union!:confused:
every man and woman that is in the union office as a rep.
was at one time on the tools, and may be again !
Most of our delegates in fact are in the field on the tools.
Cat

cattle droppings...........

The workers are the financial support for the politicians that are in the head office.

In all honesty, you as an officer in a union may have nothing but the best interests of your members at heart, but in my experience that is the exception not the rule.

Most union hacks (yes I said hacks) are only in it for themselves, and really like not being out swinging a hammer/pulling a wrench etc........ I was at one time romanced by a Union to step up and become involved, and join the payroll as part of the union itself, but told them too sod off and if I could I wouldn't be part of their socialist, way too political union anyways........ Why do you think they hold elections for union officials........ it's a political office plain and simple....... all too often disguised as a role simply to help the other union members......

[Dakota369]

I think our insatiable appetite for the cheapest available product has damaged our economy far more than unions could ever hope to. When Japanese cars first hit the market they were junk, as quality went up so did the price, same for the Korean cars. Everything I have ever bought that was made in China or India is junk, it can't not be. People that put out products that cheaply don't give a rats butt about you or your health, workers are basically working in sweat shops, and you hold that up as a model to aspire to. I avoid anything made in china as best I can because I know it's going to break or wear out before its time. And the materials are probably toxic on top of it.

You do realize that 90% of the parts that make up your North American built autos are made in places like China/Japan/Korea etc............. A North American Car has to be assembled in North America, the parts to assemble it do not have to be made in North America, and very rarely are.....................:)

[crazyfish]

You do realize that 90% of the parts that make up your North American built autos are made in places like China/Japan/Korea etc............. A North American Car has to be assembled in North America, the parts to assemble it do not have to be made in North America, and very rarely are.....................:)

And when a corporation can get a 1% more profit to move to Africa , they will and your qaulity will suffer again...The world has demanded that they want everything at the lowest possible price, walmart is proof of that. There are those who will pay for qaulity, but it has a price. As long as it is fair, then there will be a market for it ! Skilled labour is needed and should be paid for ! I will assume that you expect a raise peiodically..... when is that no longer "viable" to your employer ? Lots of companies in a crunch will ditch the high paid / older employees and go with the cheaper / younger ones to try and make a buck.

[pikergolf]

You do realize that 90% of the parts that make up your North American built autos are made in places like China/Japan/Korea etc............. A North American Car has to be assembled in North America, the parts to assemble it do not have to be made in North America, and very rarely are.....................:)

China does not belong in the same sentence as Japan or Korea. As I said earlier Japan and Korea learned that you cannot do good work cheaply, and I guarantee you they are looking after their workers, how do I know this because they are putting out good products.

[catnthehat]

Cat do you really believe that this is a very large percentage of companies anymore ...

I always felt that the company always had such a hatred for the union that the members in the end always got screwed over anyways..

Yes, and I see evidence of it every day.
Cat

[catnthehat]

cattle droppings...........

The workers are the financial support for the politicians that are in the head office.

In all honesty, you as an officer in a union may have nothing but the best interests of your members at heart, but in my experience that is the exception not the rule.

Most union hacks (yes I said hacks) are only in it for themselves, and really like not being out swinging a hammer/pulling a wrench etc........ I was at one time romanced by a Union to step up and become involved, and join the payroll as part of the union itself, but told them too sod off and if I could I wouldn't be part of their socialist, way too political union anyways........ Why do you think they hold elections for union officials........ it's a political office plain and simple....... all too often disguised as a role simply to help the other union members......

So in your mind the Union officials do nothing all day to help the members?
They would not last long in my union, and business reps and job stewards alike have been replaced - by myself and others .
I am accountable, my exectutive sec/treasurer is accounbtable , my president is accountable as ae all the other officers in my regional Council.
If one of us is not doing our job, it doesn't take long for the hammer to come down.

Cat

[Okotokian]

The thing is, the members ARE the union, and our representatives sole existance is to make sure pour colective agrements ae being honoured - by both sides!:)


At the local level perhaps. Cat, what I was talking about is more the left-wing, social justice, multicultural, "workers of the world solidarity" stance that unions and union leadership push when many/most of their blue collar members are more conservative. Their dues are in many cases going towards things they don't support personally or at the provincial or federal ballot box.

Check the Canadian Labour Congress' "Issues" tab. Divided into 4 areas: "Social and Economic", "Environmental", "International", and "Workplace". To me, only the last one might relate to the concerns you see your reps working on, and reflect the views of most members. Thats more what I was referring to.

[eastcoast]

At the local level perhaps. Cat, what I was talking about is more the left-wing, social justice, multicultural, "workers of the world solidarity" stance that unions and union leadership push when many/most of their blue collar members are more conservative. Their dues are in many cases going towards things they don't support personally or at the provincial or federal ballot box.

Check the Canadian Labour Congress' "Issues" tab. Divided into 4 areas: "Social and Economic", "Environmental", "International", and "Workplace". To me, only the last one might relate to the concerns you see your reps working on, and reflect the views of most members. Thats more what I was referring to.


that goes both ways okie,big business is staunchly conservative and the workers may be liberals,the business gives to conservatives overwhelmingly do the workers think that way maybe not,unions will always be liberal and businesses always conservative for various selfish reasons.

[pikergolf]

At the local level perhaps. Cat, what I was talking about is more the left-wing, social justice, multicultural, "workers of the world solidarity" stance that unions and union leadership push when many/most of their blue collar members are more conservative. Their dues are in many cases going towards things they don't support personally or at the provincial or federal ballot box.

Check the Canadian Labour Congress' "Issues" tab. Divided into 4 areas: "Social and Economic", "Environmental", "International", and "Workplace". To me, only the last one might relate to the concerns you see your reps working on, and reflect the views of most members. Thats more what I was referring to.

At that point the membership has to step up and say, excuse me your job is to represent me and not go pushing your personal agenda on my time and dime.

[Okotokian]

that goes both ways okie,big business is staunchly conservative and the workers may be liberals,the business gives to conservatives overwhelmingly do the workers think that way maybe not,unions will always be liberal and businesses always conservative for various selfish reasons.

Not sure about back east in your neck of the woods, but most of the boys and girls who turn a wrench or punch a time card in this province vote blue, not red or orange. I'm just sayin'.....

[eastcoast]

Not sure about back east in your neck of the woods, but most of the boys and girls who turn a wrench or punch a time card in this province vote blue, not red or orange. I'm just sayin'.....

what does that matter you said unions don't represent people views,alot of people are liberal in alberta,they might not win in elections and this is a more conservative province, but does that mean in bc or ontario unions should rule because they are liberal?

if someone chooses to work union im sure they know about what the union's support I know I do,you don't have to work union if you don't agree with what they do,but to most people it's not as important as a pay cheque to them.

[S-in-Cochrane]

Unions, I think really depends on the industry AND Collective Agreement.

I work in construction in the Oilsands. We are non-union ( CLAC ). I have worked with building trades subs and they were excellent.

The safety in our industry is highly stressed regardless of Union VS Non Union. The emphasis comes from the client and is mandated to the contractors. I think that in the past, unions played a much larger and important role in these sorts of things.

As for production of union vs non, I think it has more to do with the quality of people hired than whether or not they are union. I've seen good and bad in both.

The one thing that many of the skilled trades and I both like about the non union environment is the ability to name hire as many people as you want. Good for both parties.

My brother is an electrician and has worked for me in the past and he prefers the non union jobs because they generally get more overtime and rotations.

The union guys are generally local to Fort Mac, they get payed for travel time whereas CLAC members stay in camp. We usually try to keep the union guys on a 40 hour 5 day work week (doube time for OT).

CLAC guys generally work 20 days on 8 days off at 10 HRS a day. Usually works out to 7 hours regular time + 3 hours OT (time and a half) per day, depending on the agreement.

So I guess to me, the unions are really no better or worse than the non union jobs. They are just different. For our industry if you are local to Fort Mac and want a normal life (40 Hour work weeks) the union jobs might be better for you. For guys like my brother who lives in Manitoba, non union is a better option for him due to the flights + turnarounds.

Cheers,

S

[catnthehat]

Many of our project labour agreements have flights as well, and an extended type of shift schedule.
We also have a name hire policy within our Union.
Cat

[Okotokian]

to most people it's not as important as a pay cheque to them.

Exactly, so they put up with it. But if you asked them if they supported the political views of the union leadership, MOST in this province would say no. That's proven at the ballot box.

As for choosing to work in a union shop, I'm not sure most workers really do. They need a job, need to feed their families. There is an opening at a union shop, so they apply.

I'd be more supportive of a union that just looked after my direct interests and didn't delve into politics or social causes. If I want to support a particular party or agenda, I'll send them a cheque or work for them directly, not through my union..

[crazyfish]

The one thing that many of the skilled trades and I both like about the non union environment is the ability to name hire as many people as you want. Good for both parties.Cheers,

The name hire policy depends largely on the union , the carpenters and scaffolders (1325) has apretty much wide open policy. Name hire as many as you want ! The electricians have a ratio ,forget what it is, makes it alot harder to do !

[catnthehat]

The name hire policy depends largely on the union , the carpenters and scaffolders (1325) has apretty much wide open policy. Name hire as many as you want ! The electricians have a ratio ,forget what it is, makes it alot harder to do !

One good thing about the name hire policy is when I get a call from a contractor complaining about a member for whatever reason .
My first response is " Well you name hired him!!":sHa_sarcasticlol:
Just because a fella ges name hired does not mean he is a number one worker.
Cat

[Dakota369]

And when a corporation can get a 1% more profit to move to Africa , they will and your qaulity will suffer again...The world has demanded that they want everything at the lowest possible price, walmart is proof of that. There are those who will pay for qaulity, but it has a price. As long as it is fair, then there will be a market for it ! Skilled labour is needed and should be paid for ! I will assume that you expect a raise peiodically..... when is that no longer "viable" to your employer ? Lots of companies in a crunch will ditch the high paid / older employees and go with the cheaper / younger ones to try and make a buck.

This has no relevance in regard to a discussion about unions........if you want to discuss bad employer habits start another thread..........

[Dakota369]

China does not belong in the same sentence as Japan or Korea. As I said earlier Japan and Korea learned that you cannot do good work cheaply, and I guarantee you they are looking after their workers, how do I know this because they are putting out good products.

I am currently in a position where I buy product 's manufactured in China and they are every bit as capable as anywhere else in the world of making a quality product, it does cost a bit more (relatively) but is still far cheaper then doing it here......... why do you think all the foundry's in North America are going under, and all the raw materials to make stool are going to places like China and India.....(which is currently where we buy our mill runs from.......)

Do you do any purchasing for manufacturing????????

[Dakota369]

So in your mind the Union officials do nothing all day to help the members?
They would not last long in my union, and business reps and job stewards alike have been replaced - by myself and others .
I am accountable, my exectutive sec/treasurer is accounbtable , my president is accountable as ae all the other officers in my regional Council.
If one of us is not doing our job, it doesn't take long for the hammer to come down.

Cat

No actually in my experience the elected union officials do just enough to hang on to their positions, and to get re-elected............... like most politicians........... Don't gt me wrong, not all union involved members are politically driven, but in my experience most are. Wherever you find politicians, you usually find upper level union people....... there is a reason for that.

[catnthehat]

No actually in my experience the elected union officials do just enough to hang on to their positions, and to get re-elected............... like most politicians........... Don't gt me wrong, not all union involved members are politically driven, but in my experience most are. Wherever you find politicians, you usually find upper level union people....... there is a reason for that.

The building trades unions remain accoiuntablt ro their members as a genral rule.
I'm sure we can site instances where such is not the cae, but I can assure you that the official in charge was also brought up on charges anbd/or fired as well.
You seem to be implying that a union member with a political agenda would not be hoenst, but a non union member would.
That is not the case, because both indiviuals would have their own motives, and just because a person is a union member does not make him what you make them out to be.
I know for a fact that I am a typical union carpenter and have been for over 25 years.
I am neither lazy nor politicaly motivated, and truly believe in treating people as I feel I should be treated.
Cat

[crawfy]

Never said I hated union workers, some of my best friends are, but I do hate Unions and what as a group they have done to labor ethics, as well as the damage done to our economy here in North America, directly (In my opinion) attributable to unions.

You say the Unions have Damaged our North American economy, what Unions did this. Was it the ones that worked for Enron, Maldorf, Conrad Black or Wallstreet maybe it was that Union that was lending money to people who did not have jobs and were given hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy homes that they could not pay for. Or maybe it was the CAW who's members took roll backs and consessions while the heads of these companys still drove around on corporate jets and earned millions of dollars anually. Good read in Mcleans magazine about CEO's salarys in the past 12 years here in canada went up 444% surely justified im sure, don't think any of these guys belong to a Union.

You seriously need to look at the world around you before you say its Unions that caused this damage to the Economy in North America. I think there is a little more to the economy than just the Unions.

[Dakota369]

The building trades unions remain accoiuntablt ro their members as a genral rule.
I'm sure we can site instances where such is not the cae, but I can assure you that the official in charge was also brought up on charges anbd/or fired as well.
You seem to be implying that a union member with a political agenda would not be hoenst, but a non union member would.
That is not the case, because both indiviuals would have their own motives, and just because a person is a union member does not make him what you make them out to be.
I know for a fact that I am a typical union carpenter and have been for over 25 years.
I am neither lazy nor politicaly motivated, and truly believe in treating people as I feel I should be treated.
Cat

And as I have repeatedly mentioned you are the exception to the rule in my experience. Now I have not had a ton of experience with the building trades, and they may be much closer to their membership, in doing what they want. The huge trades that I do have experience in dealing with (AUPE, UFCW etc.) are mostly concerned with getting more money, and more benefits and more ......(you see the trend here) while making it more and more difficult to reward honest hard work.

[Dakota369]

You say the Unions have Damaged our North American economy what Unions did this. Was it the ones that worked for Enron, Maldorf, Conrad Black or Wallstreet maybe it was that Union that was lending money to people who did not have jobs and where given hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy homes that they could not pay for. Or maybe it was the CAW who's members took roll backs and consessions while the heads of these companys still drove around on corperate jets and took billions of dollars and still doyled out huge bonuses.

You seriously need to look at the world around you before you say its Unions that caused this damage to the Economy in North America. I think there a little more to it than just the Unions.

And you really gotta read a bit slower, because I never stated that unions were solely responsible for the crappy state of affair the North America economy is in right now....... but I will go on the record as saying that they have certainly contributed to the current state of affairs.........

[rottie]

You say the Unions have Damaged our North American economy what Unions did this. Was it the ones that worked for Enron, Maldorf, Conrad Black or Wallstreet maybe it was that Union that was lending money to people who did not have jobs and where given hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy homes that they could not pay for. Or maybe it was the CAW who's members took roll backs and consessions while the heads of these companys still drove around on corperate jets and took billions of dollars and still doyled out huge bonuses.

You seriously need to look at the world around you before you say its Unions that caused this damage to the Economy in North America. I think there a little more to it than just the Unions.

Very well said, you have expressed a very valid point

[S-in-Cochrane]

Many of our project labour agreements have flights as well, and an extended type of shift schedule.
We also have a name hire policy within our Union.
Cat

That's why I said it also depends on the collective agreement!


Just curious does your name hire policy limit the % that can be name hired?

Last job I was on 92% were name hired.

S

[S-in-Cochrane]

One good thing about the name hire policy is when I get a call from a contractor complaining about a member for whatever reason .
My first response is " Well you name hired him!!":sHa_sarcasticlol:
Just because a fella ges name hired does not mean he is a number one worker.
Cat

Hah, that can be very true! People always want their wife's cousin's sister's boyfriend hired and depending on where the person doing the asking is in the food chain, you might just have to hire the wife's cousin's sisters...whatever!


S

[rottie]

So Dakota as I work on an AUPE site does this mean as a Fourth Class Power Engineer that I should work for less than the private sector ?
Have you gone to the AUPE site and looked up the wages of our trades people ?You probably should,all the wages are listed under the contract section.

I am a Union member ( a steward as well) but I also realize that the Union is not always right but then neither is the employer.

Contracts are a set of responsibilties laid out that both the employer AND the Union members are to follow. On some sites managment will not follow these responsibilities unless they know they are going to be held accountable as the workers are.

If you work in the civil sevice sector without a Union we would be working for peanuts, we are constanly loosing good people to the private sector as it pays more with the same benifits. So in my opinion a Union can in some instances be a good thing

[crawfy]

And you really gotta read a bit slower, because I never stated that unions were solely responsible for the crappy state of affair the North America economy is in right now....... but I will go on the record as saying that they have certainly contributed to the current state of affairs.........

Sorry was still editing my previous post, I do not belive that I said that you did say that, just pointed out to you the other side of why I think that the North American Economy might be in trouble.

[Dakota369]

So Dakota as I work on an AUPE site does this mean as a Fourth Class Power Engineer that I should work for less than the private sector ?
Have you gone to the AUPE site and looked up the wages of our trades people ?You probably should,all the wages are listed under the contract section.

I am a Union member ( a steward as well) but I also realize that the Union is not always right but then neither is the employer.

Contracts are a set of responsibilties laid out that both the employer AND the Union members are to follow. On some sites managment will not follow these responsibilities unless they know they are going to be held accountable as the workers are.

If you work in the civil sevice sector without a Union we would be working for peanuts, we are constanly loosing good people to the private sector as it pays more with the same benifits. So in my opinion a Union can in some instances be a good thing

You should get paid what your worth......... period....... unfortunately in a union that is not always possible, while in the non-union private sector it is....... that would be why you lose people there all the time perhaps???

[catnthehat]

That's why I said it also depends on the collective agreement!


Just curious does your name hire policy limit the % that can be name hired?

Last job I was on 92% were name hired.

S

Are you speaking of a 92% local 1325 name hire on a building trades site?

There is no policy in place as such, but contractors soon learn that they do not always get the best people by not hirng off the job board .
Many times a name hire gets everyone oin more hot water than they are worth!
Cat

[catnthehat]

You should get paid what your worth......... period....... unfortunately in a union that is not always possible, while in the non-union private sector it is....... that would be why you lose people there all the time perhaps???

It works the same the other way around as well.
I recently brought in a red seal carpenter who was making less than his non- ticketed partner, but doing the layout for all their houses.
That is just not right.....
Cat

[rottie]

You should get paid what your worth......... period....... unfortunately in a union that is not always possible, while in the non-union private sector it is....... that would be why you lose people there all the time perhaps???

That is a good point Dakota, its the work being done that deserves the wage,it is up to each individual to make sure his/her work is up to standard. If its not co workers should let them know long before it becomes a managment issue. I expect no one to carry me on the job site and expect the same in return.

As stated before Unions are not always right,but with our government being the way it is without a Union to fight for decent wages we wouldnt be able to attract and keep ticketed trades people.

Without these people our services would suffer

[S-in-Cochrane]

Are you speaking of a 92% local 1325 name hire on a building trades site?

There is no policy in place as such, but contractors soon learn that they do not always get the best people by not hirng off the job board .
Many times a name hire gets everyone oin more hot water than they are worth!
Cat

Sorry no. I meant 92% of the guys we had working for us ( all trades + labor) were name hired on a CLAC project. We had a Union piping insulation sub, though I'm not sure which local they were (out of Fort Mac). They were excellent, better than some of the non union insulation subs I've worked with.

The first half was about your local, just wondering what the policy was, I've only worked with building trades as a subcontract.

And you are very right about the name hiring. It all depends on WHY the person was hired. I've only name hired based on guys I've worked with previously that I know are good. Other's hire their family members just because. Other's hire who they are told to hire by their boss. It can be good or bad, depending on the why!

S

[BlackHeart]

I respect what the unions acheived in the far past.
But now their own lack of vision and inflexibility (and thinking they are defending the old manufacturing sector jobs, in a truly decaying system)will spell the end of themselves.

Some have mentioned that unions protect jobs.....false.......profits protect jobs.....and profits don't happen if your company cannot maintain its flexiblity and productivity or competitiveness........and that is why corps are moving jobs overseas.....for the profits......and to get away from the cost and inflexibility of the union process or to maintain competitiveness. Is this good.....depends who you ask....the peasant in china who now can buy a cell phone thinks this move is great. No union has ever stopped a company from shutting down or selling or moving. Companies have been bought by union members but the price includes a big reduction in wages.

POLITICALLY: Does anybody remember Bob Rae and how he helped Ontario become what it is. We all know that union donations are a big part of the NDP's finances. Thats also why Jack can fly over the tar sands and advocate shutting it down but in the same breath whine for govt bailouts to save auto sector jobs......simple auto sector jobs are highly unionized where as the oil patch is no so much.

But also we know that the NDP are socialists, far left thinking, and we have seen globally how socialism is working out in Greece and the PIIGS countries....is that the world we want to emulate.

But why socialism.......the brotherhood.....workers in arms.......marxism.....communism.....they all come from the same thought process, just minor variations of thinking on the org structure. And usually those in charge of unions have a very strongs socialst thinking.

So if your a big pro union guy and the union supports the NDP and the NDP would like to see the oil sands shut down, with the resultant loss of jobs and decrease in home values and decrease in financial security........are you not indirectly advocating for the destruction of your own job and finances........as things currently sit.

Some will say, well vote or change thing within the union.......****ing up a rope. Usually the structure and rules are set to entrench those in power currently. My experience was interesting,.....as a requirement of a job, you had to become a union member.....what a farce......president was a drunk and an idiot.......made some really bonehead decisions without discussion with the people they effected, in fact he refused to return mine and others calls,...decide to run against him....talked to someone at union office.....how do I run..."can't gotta be a shop steward for #years"...then I can run?...."No! Gotta a be an area rep for #years,....then I can run against him?......"No! Gotta be on the board to run".....then I can run against him?........"Nope! Gotta be on the board for 5 years and then have the nomination of two board members"..........Thats going to take me 20years to get there before I can do anything about this idiot????........."YEP!".....No wonder why that idiot keeps his job. Welcome to the USSR.

The Rand decision forces employees to belong to unions were they exist whether the employee wants to or not......but I do beleive that the Rand decision is no longer valid and that unions should compete for the dues that they claim will help the worker in the long run. We are in the age of the internet and high tech.....not the company store mining town senario anymore......our education level is much higher.....our access to information is top notch .....our mobility is strong...we know what our rights are and where to hire a lawyer.....and the world is a very competitive place......for our work and for profits......let the market place sort out if there is a need for unions.

Perhaps the place for unions is in the uneducated poor desperate third world where the manufacturing jobs are moving to.

[Dakota369]

That is a good point Dakota, its the work being done that deserves the wage,it is up to each individual to make sure his/her work is up to standard. If its not co workers should let them know long before it becomes a managment issue. I expect no one to carry me on the job site and expect the same in return.

As stated before Unions are not always right,but with our government being the way it is without a Union to fight for decent wages we wouldnt be able to attract and keep ticketed trades people.

Without these people our services would suffer

And when your services begin to suffer, then you will get less business, (oh wait public sector so Gov. run...) or costs will increase which will create a demand for more qualified people who cost more and then the Gov. will be forced to pay more for good people...... not like now where too often they are paying top dollar for average or substandard staff, who are only in the position they are in due to seniority! (another of my union pet peeves...... rewarding longevity by giving supervisory positions based on seniority, not ability........)

[Dakota369]

I respect what the unions acheived in the far past.
But now their own lack of vision and inflexibility (and thinking they are defending the old manufacturing sector jobs, in a truly decaying system)will spell the end of themselves.

Some have mentioned that unions protect jobs.....false.......profits protect jobs.....and profits don't happen if your company cannot maintain its flexiblity and productivity or competitiveness........and that is why corps are moving jobs overseas.....for the profits......and to get away from the cost and inflexibility of the union process or to maintain competitiveness. Is this good.....depends who you ask....the peasant in china who now can buy a cell phone thinks this move is great. No union has ever stopped a company from shutting down or selling or moving. Companies have been bought by union members but the price includes a big reduction in wages.

POLITICALLY: Does anybody remember Bob Rae and how he helped Ontario become what it is. We all know that union donations are a big part of the NDP's finances. Thats also why Jack can fly over the tar sands and advocate shutting it down but in the same breath whine for govt bailouts to save auto sector jobs......simple auto sector jobs are highly unionized where as the oil patch is no so much.

But also we know that the NDP are socialists, far left thinking, and we have seen globally how socialism is working out in Greece and the PIIGS countries....is that the world we want to emulate.

But why socialism.......the brotherhood.....workers in arms.......marxism.....communism.....they all come from the same thought process, just minor variations of thinking on the org structure. And usually those in charge of unions have a very strongs socialst thinking.

So if your a big pro union guy and the union supports the NDP and the NDP would like to see the oil sands shut down, with the resultant loss of jobs and decrease in home values and decrease in financial security........are you not indirectly advocating for the destruction of your own job and finances........as things currently sit.

Some will say, well vote or change thing within the union.......****ing up a rope. Usually the structure and rules are set to entrench those in power currently. My experience was interesting,.....as a requirement of a job, you had to become a union member.....what a farce......president was a drunk and an idiot.......made some really bonehead decisions without discussion with the people they effected, in fact he refused to return mine and others calls,...decide to run against him....talked to someone at union office.....how do I run..."can't gotta be a shop steward for #years"...then I can run?...."No! Gotta a be an area rep for #years,....then I can run against him?......"No! Gotta be on the board to run".....then I can run against him?........"Nope! Gotta be on the board for 5 years and then have the nomination of two board members"..........Thats going to take me 20years to get there before I can do anything about this idiot????........."YEP!".....No wonder why that idiot keeps his job. Welcome to the USSR.

The Rand decision forces employees to belong to unions were they exist whether the employee wants to or not......but I do beleive that the Rand decision is no longer valid and that unions should compete for the dues that they claim will help the worker in the long run. We are in the age of the internet and high tech.....not the company store mining town senario anymore......our education level is much higher.....our access to information is top notch .....our mobility is strong...we know what our rights are and where to hire a lawyer.....and the world is a very competitive place......for our work and for profits......let the market place sort out if there is a need for unions.

Perhaps the place for unions is in the uneducated poor desperate third world where the manufacturing jobs are moving to.

Well thought out response............:test:

[The Elkster]

Most US companies have broken unions by outsourcing work to china and india. The top brass sold us on the short term bonus of cheap goods but that has been more than offset by the loss of good paying jobs all across the US. If people aren't working even the cheap stuff becomes out of reach and the US is well along that trend. Its is falling to its knees very quickly as it has to import everything and pay big to do so. All whilst the top dogs get ever increasing pay and rediculous bonuses while the people doing the actual work are left to wallow. How the heck is that fair?

It sure chaps me to see money managers in new york and chicago making millions and millions for doing nothing but spinning money around and around and pilfering some off the top on each go round. Oh and coming up with a bunch of "exotic" complicated investments/scams that serve the same purpose...NONE. Meanwhile the farmer putting food on your table and the oil worker labouring in the cold fighting to bring energy to your home are left to struggle for a basic wage. Yup that is a great system. No need for unions.


Dakota you need to get outside AB my friend. As soon as you get to a place with less than full employment you will see what happens. All of a sudden employers hold all the cards and its amazing the stuff they pull. Try telling all the out of work americans if they just work hard the pay will come job or no job...nice fantasy but NOT reality. Ultimately if there aren't enough jobs somebody loses out no matter how hard everyone works...that is reality.

[So Nova *!%]

And when your services begin to suffer, then you will get less business, (oh wait public sector so Gov. run...) or costs will increase which will create a demand for more qualified people who cost more and then the Gov. will be forced to pay more for good people...... not like now where too often they are paying top dollar for average or substandard staff, who are only in the position they are in due to seniority! (another of my union pet peeves...... rewarding longevity by giving supervisory positions based on seniority, not ability........)

have been quietly enjoying the back and forth debate lots of good points for and against (and I am Pro Union even though I don't belong to one!)
But I take exception to your Pet peeve I'm sorry if I've worked for company Y for X amount of years then I better Da## well be more senior than some one there with less years (EXPERIENCE) my experience just might save your life because I have seen the almosts, and the not so serious right up to the I can't believe he's still alives So what if I don't throw the tools on daily anymore I've earned that position

[rottie]

And when your services begin to suffer, then you will get less business, (oh wait public sector so Gov. run...) or costs will increase which will create a demand for more qualified people who cost more and then the Gov. will be forced to pay more for good people...... not like now where too often they are paying top dollar for average or substandard staff, who are only in the position they are in due to seniority! (another of my union pet peeves...... rewarding longevity by giving supervisory positions based on seniority, not ability........)

Actually advantcment depends on the contract I guess,ours takes in both qualifications and time in,not just time in.
I work in a Hospital do you really want to see our services suffer before qualified people are retained. That building can get real dark and real cold without good people.

[Dakota369]

Most US companies have broken unions by outsourcing work to china and india. The top brass sold us on the short term bonus of cheap goods but that has been more than offset by the loss of good paying jobs all across the US. If people aren't working even the cheap stuff becomes out of reach and the US is well along that trend. Its is falling to its knees very quickly as it has to import everything and pay big to do so. All whilst the top dogs get ever increasing pay and rediculous bonuses while the people doing the actual work are left to wallow. How the heck is that fair?

It sure chaps me to see money managers in new york and chicago making millions and millions for doing nothing but spinning money around and around and pilfering some off the top on each go round. Oh and coming up with a bunch of "exotic" complicated investments/scams that serve the same purpose...NONE. Meanwhile the farmer putting food on your table and the oil worker labouring in the cold fighting to bring energy to your home are left to struggle for a basic wage. Yup that is a great system. No need for unions.


Dakota you need to get outside AB my friend. As soon as you get to a place with less than full employment you will see what happens. All of a sudden employers hold all the cards and its amazing the stuff they pull. Try telling all the out of work americans if they just work hard the pay will come job or no job...nice fantasy but NOT reality. Ultimately if there aren't enough jobs somebody loses out no matter how hard everyone works...that is reality.

I have been outside of Alberta my friend. It doesn't matter where you are, the creme always rises to the top, and crap ends up on the stick........... the lazy no good worker will remain unemployed, while the aggressive hard working go getter will get a job....... keep that job and go places within the company lucky enough to have them........ unless it's a union job and then god forbid if you reward someone who does twice the work of anyone else with a promotion........ unless they are next on the promotions list due to seniority.......... absolutely pathetic.......

A good portion of those out of work Americans are out of work due to unions....... and of course the crappy mortgage yourself to the hilt and live beyond your means mentality that America is famous for...... take a look at the average debt load most Americans carry and you can see why so many are out of work.

[crawfy]

And when your services begin to suffer, then you will get less business, (oh wait public sector so Gov. run...) or costs will increase which will create a demand for more qualified people who cost more and then the Gov. will be forced to pay more for good people...... not like now where too often they are paying top dollar for average or substandard staff, who are only in the position they are in due to seniority! (another of my union pet peeves...... rewarding longevity by giving supervisory positions based on seniority, not ability........)

I am not sure that all Unions are alike however, you might like our Union because your little pet peeve about rewarding longevity with supervisor positions just does not happen were I am at. All of our supervisor positions are Management and in my location most of my supervisors have about 20 years less service than I do. So just the opposite here no ability and no seniority.:evilgrin:

[Dakota369]

have been quietly enjoying the back and forth debate lots of good points for and against (and I am Pro Union even though I don't belong to one!)
But I take exception to your Pet peeve I'm sorry if I've worked for company Y for X amount of years then I better Da## well be more senior than some one there with less years (EXPERIENCE) my experience just might save your life because I have seen the almosts, and the not so serious right up to the I can't believe he's still alives So what if I don't throw the tools on daily anymore I've earned that position

Read carefully.................. I did not say time in should not be a consideration in promotion, but in the public sector I have promoted based on performance, time in, as well as work ethic........... unions look first at time in, and qualifications as another pointed out, but do not even consider work ethic........ which I find deplorable...... the laziest guy on the job site with the least amount of aptitude can end up foreman or supervisor based on seniority........ that would never happen in the private sector..... unless he is the owners son/cousin/son-in-law etc..........:)

[Dakota369]

I am not sure that all Unions are alike however, you might like our Union because your little pet peeve about rewarding longevity with supervisor positions just does not happen were I am at. All of our supervisor positions are Management and in my location most of my supervisors have about 20 years less service than I do. So just the opposite here no ability and no seniority.:evilgrin:

Nice to hear....... I don't profess to be an authority on all unions, and I am sure that there are some out there that are more progressive then others, I can only speak of the ones I have directly had experiences with and they have left me less then impressed.........(as well most of the trade workers I know personally have repeatedly told me that non-union jobs are completed quicker, and better then the union ones are)

[So Nova *!%]

Read carefully.................. I did not say time in should not be a consideration in promotion, but in the public sector I have promoted based on performance, time in, as well as work ethic........... unions look first at time in, and qualifications as another pointed out, but do not even consider work ethic........ which I find deplorable...... the laziest guy on the job site with the least amount of aptitude can end up foreman or supervisor based on seniority........ that would never happen in the private sector..... unless he is the owners son/cousin/son-in-law etc..........:)

K:)

[lavigne25]

unions are very week in alberta

[Dakota369]

Actually advantcment depends on the contract I guess,ours takes in both qualifications and time in,not just time in.
I work in a Hospital do you really want to see our services suffer before qualified people are retained. That building can get real dark and real cold without good people.

No.............I would like to see two thirds of the upper management fired, and the extra money used to fully staff every medical facility with qualified top notch people, as well as cutting edge equipment........... but that's a whole nother thread................

I really believe anybody who stays in Alberta and works in the medical field deserves a medal as they are doing it help out their fellow man........ (except for the few really poorly trained/lazy who are here because the union protects them....... and they are here I have met them)

[crawfy]

I have been outside of Alberta my friend. It doesn't matter where you are, the creme always rises to the top, and crap ends up on the stick........... the lazy no good worker will remain unemployed, while the aggressive hard working go getter will get a job....... keep that job and go places within the company lucky enough to have them........ unless it's a union job and then god forbid if you reward someone who does twice the work of anyone else with a promotion........ unless they are next on the promotions list due to seniority.......... absolutely pathetic.......

A good portion of those out of work Americans are out of work due to unions....... and of course the crappy mortgage yourself to the hilt and live beyond your means mentality that America is famous for...... take a look at the average debt load most Americans carry and you can see why so many are out of work.

I really dont Think Canada is too far off of your comments of the live beyond your means, and have you been watching the news lately but a Canadian's debt load is higher than an American's. So your two reasons (unions and debt load) make less sense than the B S ponzi schemes that big banks were involved in creating buyer who should not have been able to buy. So if and when this happens to us here in Canada what envolvement did the Unions have in this?:snapoutofit:

[BlackHeart]

Most US companies have broken unions by outsourcing work to china and india. The top brass sold us on the short term bonus of cheap goods but that has been more than offset by the loss of good paying jobs all across the US. If people aren't working even the cheap stuff becomes out of reach and the US is well along that trend. Its is falling to its knees very quickly as it has to import everything and pay big to do so. All whilst the top dogs get ever increasing pay and rediculous bonuses while the people doing the actual work are left to wallow. How the heck is that fair?

It sure chaps me to see money managers in new york and chicago making millions and millions for doing nothing but spinning money around and around and pilfering some off the top on each go round. Oh and coming up with a bunch of "exotic" complicated investments/scams that serve the same purpose...NONE. Meanwhile the farmer putting food on your table and the oil worker labouring in the cold fighting to bring energy to your home are left to struggle for a basic wage. Yup that is a great system. No need for unions.


Dakota you need to get outside AB my friend. As soon as you get to a place with less than full employment you will see what happens. All of a sudden employers hold all the cards and its amazing the stuff they pull. Try telling all the out of work americans if they just work hard the pay will come job or no job...nice fantasy but NOT reality. Ultimately if there aren't enough jobs somebody loses out no matter how hard everyone works...that is reality.

Your view is very ego-centric............who said only the North American worker was entitled to all the jobs, the high standard of living, the wealth and resources of the world at its disposal and the expectation of a cushy retirement.........if you want to be socialist in your thinking, try it at a global level.........to the chinese peasant that is delighted to have a job where he can increase his standard of living up to a tenth of our poor, you are the Fat-Cat keep the poor worker down trodden.

Now I am not an immigrant or minority or foriegn worker so don't start down that road.....but I try to keep my political and ecomonic beleifs true and without the internal conflict that most socialist thinking causes.

As for the current mess in the US and the investment world.......nothing related to the unions and nothing they would have had the knowledge to deal with or even understand.........but a lot more of the working class got sub-prime mortgages when they probably shouldn't have and should have stayed renting from The Man.

Fair..........its never is about fair.......someones going to eat your lunch if you don't fight for it.

Outside of AB and in areas with less than full employment.......would those be more highly unionized area????.........Alberta's advantage is the atmosphere for doing business......lower taxes and less beaucracy.......and unions are usually very beaucratic. The quickest way to kill an economy is to overtax the businesses and workers, create a socialists dream where the incentive for hard work is dampened by the safety net catching everything and burden them with beaucracy so that doing anything takes a monumental task......I have looked at Ontario and BC in regards to business.......won't go there...too much of the above........and I couldn't waste my time making the
State money while filling out their million reports. Unions never contribute to anything positive in these areas.....

And no union ever created a job or business other than their own beaucracy. So don't confuse the economic impacts and the union issue.

In fact I would argue that in times of low employement they are a hinderance to getting the economy going again in that they demand the same level of wages and benefits that existed when times were good as when times are bad. And those that have jobs get to keep them, making it a closed shop for the new kid coming out of school or training. You then need connections to get in.....sort of like a working class class structure.

[lavigne25]

unions in alberta are no more then just like those employment agency , they will never side with the employee if theres a dispute ,they will side with the employers because the employers bring them the work

[crawfy]

unions in alberta are no more then just like those employment agency , they will never side with the employee if theres a dispute ,they will side with the employers because the employers bring them the work

I would say that a Union is only as strong as the members involved in that Union.

[rottie]

No.............I would like to see two thirds of the upper management fired, and the extra money used to fully staff every medical facility with qualified top notch people, as well as cutting edge equipment........... but that's a whole nother thread................

I really believe anybody who stays in Alberta and works in the medical field deserves a medal as they are doing it help out their fellow man........ (except for the few really poorly trained/lazy who are here because the union protects them....... and they are here I have met them)

I may not agree with all your opinions but I do respect them. I do however agree with your sentiments toward our top, heavey managment.
We are too top heavey and could be reduced with no cuts in service at all

There are provisions in our contract to get rid of the slack workers,if managment follows thge guide lines it can be done, It has happened on our site a couple times and in all honesty I was glad to see them go, these are the people that give all Union members a bad name.

[pikergolf]

Read carefully.................. I did not say time in should not be a consideration in promotion, but in the public sector I have promoted based on performance, time in, as well as work ethic........... unions look first at time in, and qualifications as another pointed out, but do not even consider work ethic........ which I find deplorable...... the laziest guy on the job site with the least amount of aptitude can end up foreman or supervisor based on seniority........ that would never happen in the private sector..... unless he is the owners son/cousin/son-in-law etc..........:)

The way you describe the going ons of a union I'm not convinced at all that you have had much to do with them.:)

[BlackHeart]

No.............I would like to see two thirds of the upper management fired, and the extra money used to fully staff every medical facility with qualified top notch people, as well as cutting edge equipment........... but that's a whole nother thread................

I really believe anybody who stays in Alberta and works in the medical field deserves a medal as they are doing it help out their fellow man........ (except for the few really poorly trained/lazy who are here because the union protects them....... and they are here I have met them)

Now I am going to disagree with you as well.......80% of the cost of healthcare is wages......and UNA is one of the biggest chunks and hurdles to making improvements to the system......some politician is eventually going to have to tackle them and bring their contracts down to earth..........my sister in law is a nurse and still hates Klein because he implemented a 5% rollback one year, management included.....doesn't matter that they got it back in a year or two's time and that in some years they got 16% increases and that they are probably the highest paid nurses in Canada......still hates him and votes liberal or NDP.

Read the post on healthcare...one of the poster who talked about .6 nurses and annual wages in the 100K++ range got it right.

[crawfy]

No.............I would like to see two thirds of the upper management fired, and the extra money used to fully staff every medical facility with qualified top notch people, as well as cutting edge equipment........... but that's a whole nother thread................

I really believe anybody who stays in Alberta and works in the medical field deserves a medal as they are doing it help out their fellow man........ (except for the few really poorly trained/lazy who are here because the union protects them....... and they are here I have met them)

Dakota you have those same idiots within Companies to, that the Company protects too they didnt all get their jobs because they were qualified, some where the bosses kids, some knew the bosses and some slept with the bosses.

Again Unions only can protect people who's rights have been violated and when grievances are filed under law, legislation or collective agreements.

[Dakota369]

The way you describe the going ons of a union I'm not convinced at all that you have had much to do with them.:)

As little as possible.............. and even then that has been too much.........of course I did study sociology and Unions and how unionization occurred so some of how I feel is drawn from that as well....... and I do know a fair # of tradespeople and they all have horror stories about unions....... not many have sunshine and joy stories about them however....................
Like one ex acquaintance of mine who I believe still has not passed his third year welding test, and who could not get a job in a non-union welding shop and keep it for more then two weeks (because he is to put it mildly a bit of an idiot) who was, last I heard working as a welder in a ............union shop!!!!

[pikergolf]

Now I am going to disagree with you as well.......80% of the cost of healthcare is wages......and UNA is one of the biggest chunks and hurdles to making improvements to the system......some politician is eventually going to have to tackle them and bring their contracts down to earth..........my sister in law is a nurse and still hates Klein because he implemented a 5% rollback one year, management included.....doesn't matter that they got it back in a year or two's time and that in some years they got 16% increases and that they are probably the highest paid nurses in Canada......still hates him and votes liberal or NDP.

Read the post on healthcare...one of the poster who talked about .6 nurses and annual wages in the 100K++ range got it right.

Meh it's the internet lots of stuff gets said. 52X40X.6=1248
100K/1248=80hr. must work way up north
http://www.una.ab.ca/collectiveagreements/nursingsalaries/

[Dakota369]

Dakota you have those same idiots within Companies to, that the Company protects too they didnt all get their jobs because they were qualified, some where the bosses kids, some knew the bosses and some slept with the bosses.

Again Unions only can protect people who's rights have been violated and when grievances are filed under law, legislation or collective agreements.

In the private sector it is the exception when this happens, and it does happen trust me............but it is not at all uncommon in the union world, I have both seen it and heard of it constantly..........

[pikergolf]

As little as possible.............. and even then that has been too much.........of course I did study sociology and Unions and how unionization occurred so some of how I feel is drawn from that as well....... and I do know a fair # of tradespeople and they all have horror stories about unions....... not many have sunshine and joy stories about them however....................
Like one ex acquaintance of mine who I believe still has not passed his third year welding test, and who could not get a job in a non-union welding shop and keep it for more then two weeks (because he is to put it mildly a bit of an idiot) who was, last I heard working as a welder in a ............union shop!!!!

Ah sociology.

[crawfy]

As little as possible.............. and even then that has been too much.........of course I did study sociology and Unions and how unionization occurred so some of how I feel is drawn from that as well....... and I do know a fair # of tradespeople and they all have horror stories about unions....... not many have sunshine and joy stories about them however....................
Like one ex acquaintance of mine who I believe still has not passed his third year welding test, and who could not get a job in a non-union welding shop and keep it for more then two weeks (because he is to put it mildly a bit of an idiot) who was, last I heard working as a welder in a ............union shop!!!!

So did the Union hire him or did the company, my assumtion probably the Company's HR dept?

[Dakota369]

Now I am going to disagree with you as well.......80% of the cost of healthcare is wages......and UNA is one of the biggest chunks and hurdles to making improvements to the system......some politician is eventually going to have to tackle them and bring their contracts down to earth..........my sister in law is a nurse and still hates Klein because he implemented a 5% rollback one year, management included.....doesn't matter that they got it back in a year or two's time and that in some years they got 16% increases and that they are probably the highest paid nurses in Canada......still hates him and votes liberal or NDP.


Read the post on healthcare...one of the poster who talked about .6 nurses and annual wages in the 100K++ range got it right.

If you have ever been hospitalized, or had a loved one in care for any amount of time you would in all likelihood want each and every nurse given a 50% pay increase considering all the crap (literally) that they have to put up with............

[crawfy]

Meh it's the internet lots of stuff gets said. 52X40X.6=1248
100K/1248=80hr. must work way up north
http://www.una.ab.ca/collectiveagreements/nursingsalaries/

I agree with you, people should not judge one's occupation on salary alone and one should not judge that occupation until they have walked a mile in thier shoes.

[So Nova *!%]

[QUOTE=Dakota369;843665]If you have ever been hospitalized, or had a loved one in care for any amount of time you would in all likelihood want each and every nurse given a 50% pay increase considering all the crap (literally) that they have to put up with............[/QUOT


........and the union reps phone started to ring off the hook:sHa_sarcasticlol:

[So Nova *!%]

I'm guessing there are three things you don't talk about
1 religion
2 politics
3 - unions
but my it is interesting

[BlackHeart]

Meh it's the internet lots of stuff gets said. 52X40X.6=1248
100K/1248=80hr. must work way up north
http://www.una.ab.ca/collectiveagreements/nursingsalaries/

No. Your missing a few things there.......and internet stuff.......many things can be.......but I know the numbers and the facts personally.......we had one nurse make $150K (ten years since then) and she was a .2 position......all her shifts were double time and premiumed.......wouldn't take a full time position even though she worked the equivalent........the .6 position crap has been used to exploit the healthcare system.......the community had 5 full time position equivalents, at least 12 working nurses and none would take full time positions and all enjoyed the equivalent of a full time income.

Any nurse that would dare apply for the full time positions or take a shift at regular time would be brow beaten by her colleagues and union.

The .6 position stuff was put in place to help balance work and life for women/nurses.....but has been used as a weapon against the system by the union.

[rottie]

No. Your missing a few things there.......and internet stuff.......many things can be.......but I know the numbers and the facts personally.......we had one nurse make $150K (ten years since then) and she was a .2 position......all her shifts were double time and premiumed.......wouldn't take a full time position even though she worked the equivalent........the .6 position crap has been used to exploit the healthcare system.......the community had 5 full time position equivalents, at least 12 working nurses and none would take full time positions and all enjoyed the equivalent of a full time income.

Any nurse that would dare apply for the full time positions or take a shift at regular time would be brow beaten by her colleagues and union.

The .6 position stuff was put in place to help balance work and life for women/nurses.....but has been used as a weapon against the system by the union.


On this you are correct, there is alot of abuse of the system. If we looked at how jobs are posted/filled we could save money without touching hourly rates or loosing jobs. By the same token shift work as a whole can be easily abused by any who wants to do so,not just the nurseing proffesion.

That been said having worked in close proximity to the nurses I would have to say the vast majority are real good at what they do and are excellent with their patients.

[BlackHeart]

On this you are correct, there is alot of abuse of the system. If we looked at how jobs are posted/filled we could save money without touching hourly rates or loosing jobs. By the same token shift work as a whole can be easily abused by any who wants to do so,not just the nurseing proffesion.

That been said having worked in close proximity to the nurses I would have to say the vast majority are real good at what they do and are excellent with their patients.

No disagreeing with you there.....

[hornhead]

i should have read all the posts in this thread because it is and should be a good one.

i got as far as some union bashing and flashed thru the rest.

US's problem is with debt load .. private & corporate... and even the government's. could be the union's problem ... don't know ... i am not wise enuff to figure that mess out.

as far as "safety" when management found there was money in safety and $ to be returned, then management got on the band wagon.

i was in building construction for years and when unions started trying to RUN the companies, that spelt the end of their reign.

BUT what the unions were good for was negotiating a "reasonable" wage for workers and health & retirement benefits for a job well done.

they also were VERY good at training apprentices until they were journeymen in their respective trades.

i am now retired but i certainly missed those journeymen in my trade after the dissolution of the unions. they were and still are the best in their field, but they are also now retiring or retired years ago.

is there a place for unions? in this old fart's eyes... YES ... but they forgot that place and fell into an adversarial (sp?) relationship with the very people who were supplying the work.

they thought that they ran the constuction field , but they were just a part of a simple relationship....get the work and we'll send you the men you need to build it.

lot's of work and money in alberta, so non-union is a fine concept ... try working here in manitoba ... it's a whole new world folks.

everyone in my town has 2 jobs to keep afloat ... and i'm not in winnipeg.

sure glad i'm not trying to start now ... it's a brave new world out there ... tuf as nails and your kids are competing with some guy with a laptop computer who lives in a shack under a bridge in some third world country.

and he or she is guaranteed non-union.

[great white whaler]

I'm going to say that the vast majority of the safety stuff that's in place now is because of unions. Large Co. and Gov. don't give two fiddles about their workers. Most would run you into the ground and then shed you when your wore out. For the life of me I don't understand how workers can tear down unionized work forces because the unionized workers have it better. Why not aspire to having a better life and form a union rather than try and tear down someone that has it good. Government fostered the public service unions when they first came out because they wanted business to follow along, but they didn't and now the average working stiff villainizes unions because they don't have what the unions have. It's your choice to not work for a union, just like it's the union members choice to work for one. I fully believe that the patch is not unionized because workers were making more money working to many hours and not resting long enough, they didn't want a bunch of rules to hinder how much money they made. But in the end it costs in health and family issues. All you have to do is check out construction sights, union all the saftey stuff is there people get breaks etc. Non union some of them are a free for all and the owner has still managed to convince his staff how bad unions are? Flame away

X2

[fat cat]

NO worked in ontario...

[purgatory.sv]

#105 5 Hours Ago
crawfy Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lethbridge, A. B.
Posts: 674



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavigne25
unions in alberta are no more then just like those employment agency , they will never side with the employee if theres a dispute ,they will side with the employers because the employers bring them the work

I would say that a Union is only as strong as the members involved in that Union.





I would say that a Union is only as strong as the members involved in that Union.


Many post but this above statement is the closest to the truth there is, if your members do not participate you will never be accountable. On the same hand once you participate the simplicity will disappears. And size matters.

[boomstick]

wow catnthehat for general secretary go cat go ! just teasen ya brother . i to have been in the union a very long time (millwrights,ontario ,alberta 35 yrs total) and have seen the good and the bad but what amazes me is the apprentices we are seeing to-day. lots of drive ,willing to learn. i too share many of your veiws on this subject but also understand that many don,t. those that say i have to vote a certain way because my hall says so i can only say bs , im a free man to vote as i see fit ,those that say i,m overpaid to do what i do should come to work with me ,they would be thankful for that days pay. a fair days work for a fair days pay and slackers don,t last long in my world. nothing is handed to us ,barganing into the night, give and take , just so my family can have decent health benifits. the effects of this have trickeled down to all jobs i think and i only hope that evey worker gets what they deserve.

[catnthehat]

wow catnthehat for general secretary go cat go ! just teasen ya brother . i to have been in the union a very long time (millwrights,ontario ,alberta 35 yrs total) and have seen the good and the bad but what amazes me is the apprentices we are seeing to-day. lots of drive ,willing to learn. i too share many of your veiws on this subject but also understand that many don,t. those that say i have to vote a certain way because my hall says so i can only say bs , im a free man to vote as i see fit ,those that say i,m overpaid to do what i do should come to work with me ,they would be thankful for that days pay. a fair days work for a fair days pay and slackers don,t last long in my world. nothing is handed to us ,barganing into the night, give and take , just so my family can have decent health benifits. the effects of this have trickeled down to all jobs i think and i only hope that evey worker gets what they deserve.

I walk the walk as well as talk the talk, and I can tell you than when my son (millwrights local 1460 of the ARCCAW) announced to his mother that he had accepted a steward's job with the company he was working for, well, let's just say she blame ME!!:sHa_sarcasticlol:
I put everything I can into representing our members to the best of my ability and my partner's and my track records for grievance wins and money awarded to our members and the amount of UNPAID overtime we put in reflects that I think.
I will continue to represent our workers and defend them whenever I am needed to, no matter what was said about union officials by one of the posters here.:)
Cat

[Dakota369]

Ah sociology.

Yeah, sociology........ here is the definition if you need it.....

Sociology is the study of society.[1] It is a social science—a term with which it is sometimes synonymous—which uses various methods of empirical investigation[2] and critical analysis[3] to develop and refine a body of knowledge about human social activity, often with the goal of applying such knowledge to the pursuit of social welfare. Subject matter ranges from the micro level of agency and interaction to the macro level of systems and social structures.[4]

Unions, and unionization are a function of societies fyi.....

:scared0018:

[Dakota369]

So did the Union hire him or did the company, my assumtion probably the Company's HR dept?

I believe he got the position through the hall............

[eastcoast]

union's are a balance to companies abuses,same way lawyers are a balance to police abuses,they are not perfect but they are needed.

[Arn?Narn.]

Unions have a place in todays labor environment. As society changes, so do the systems that maintain various facets of it. Today, with better labor laws, human rights, etc., the role, perception and identity of the union and it's members has changed somewhat.

I am a unionized worker and thankful for it.

[trophyboy]

Public sector unions serve only 2 purposes. They rape the taxpayer and hold the public at large hostage if they don't get their way.

Unions in general are for the weak, end of story!

[pogo]

As long as there are people, there will be those who seek to exploit them.

In Solidarity.

[pogo]

Public sector unions serve only 2 purposes. They rape the taxpayer and hold the public at large hostage if they don't get their way.

Unions in general are for the weak, end of story!

If you worked a little harder yourself, maybe you could afford your taxes.

[Arn?Narn.]

Public sector unions serve only 2 purposes. They rape the taxpayer and hold the public at large hostage if they don't get their way.

Unions in general are for the weak, end of story!

do expand.....:snapoutofit:

[ghglenn]

It is not entirely correct to blame unions for lost/outsourced jobs. The internet brought a new method of communication to the world. This allowed for people of other countries, who accustomed to equivalent, less-paying jobs the ability to bid/vie for the same jobs/services that we apply for. Globalization, through a new/dynamic means of communication, is a major contributing factor for the state of things today. Good unions, give a voice to the middle-class worker, aide them in planning for retirement, and protect their rights in the work place. Unfortunately, if these things weren't guarded by the still remaining unions, I doubt that a complacent public would lift a finger to make it right, but would roll-over for the business machine. Sure there are corrupt union leaders, but there are no corrupt politicians who are in the back pocket of big business....yeah right. Unions serve a valid purpose.

[boomstick]

very well said catnthehat, i to have been a job stewart many times over my years with the millwrights (2309 and 1460) and its not all peaches and cream. fighting for union rights ,members rights with an employer, it a tough and sometimes thankless job but one that i will take to the end. i also feel for ya in the wife deptment cause mine is now on me about getting my son in the hall when he finishes high school in a few months . shes already hit me with the third generation thing (as my dad was before me ), the no work thing , ya almost everything lol. its kind interesting around here right now.:)

[TomE]

Lisa, if you don't like your job you don't strike. You just go in every day, and do it really half-azzed. That's the American way. (Homer Simpson)

There will always be the Half-Azzed workers no matter if in a Union or not. The union I belong to do not back these people..Some do fall thru the cracks though..:sign0161:

[eastcoast]

working at alta steel a few years ago doing some road repairs I vividly remember a sticker in the bathroom.

"united we bargain......divided we beg"

[hal53]

It is not entirely correct to blame unions for lost/outsourced jobs. The internet brought a new method of communication to the world. This allowed for people of other countries, who accustomed to equivalent, less-paying jobs the ability to bid/vie for the same jobs/services that we apply for. Globalization, through a new/dynamic means of communication, is a major contributing factor for the state of things today. Good unions, give a voice to the middle-class worker, aide them in planning for retirement, and protect their rights in the work place. Unfortunately, if these things weren't guarded by the still remaining unions, I doubt that a complacent public would lift a finger to make it right, but would roll-over for the business machine. Sure there are corrupt union leaders, but there are no corrupt politicians who are in the back pocket of big business....yeah right. Unions serve a valid purpose.
Well said, but you conveniently left out the reason for out sourcing...$$$$$...pay a union guy who thinks his job and benefits should pay him $40.00/hr.??? or less wages. with an obviously inferior product???...I'm really torn on this one...and will not, or try not to, buy anything that is not made in canada or the US....it is becoming increasingly hard to find these items though...and no one will convince me that the unions had nothing to do with this...too much pay, for far too little production....

[209x50]

I once did an 11 year strech as a union carpenter. it was like doing time but I needed the job. The union protected more usless people than good. I could never go back.

[crawfy]

I once did an 11 year strech as a union carpenter. it was like doing time but I needed the job. The union protected more usless people than good. I could never go back.

209x50 as I said in a previous post this happens in/and on the otherside of the green grass also, managers protect managers and so on and so on its not just a Union problem.

[waylow]

I'm in a situation right now that I wish I had some union representation. I was working for a company for 2 1/2 yrs. and we decided to move home. I stated my intentions 2 months before our move. No transfer was available due to that there was no position available. Okay, so my last day with them was Dec. 22nd. Move home, getting settled in and get a phone call (Jan.7th) from the company saying that now there is a position. So I take the job, but I am now a contract employee, no holidays, no bonus program, lost pension and benefits, less overtime. I find it quite intriguing that suddenly there was a position for me. Moving expenses were all out of our pockets to boot. So I've been fighting HR over this matter. Their argument is that I resigned, and thus lost my preveliges. My argument is that I would not have resigned if I knew a position was available. I could have kept my old job and lived in camp and waited for the new position to open up. Pretty frustrating.

[crawfy]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/15/us-wisconsin-protests-idUSTRE71E7BY20110215?feedType=RSS&sp=true

This is what is going on in Wisconsin as we speak, and then you have a attorney deputy general in Indian tweeting that all these peaceful protesters should be fired on with live ammunition. Yes politicians would get my vote to help me out as a person in the working public today.:sick:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/ask-dag-jeffery-cox-to-resign-for-his-dangerous-comments/

[snaky]

I'm not for or against unions having worked for the Alberta Gov. for 35 Yrs. I know what unions are all about. Really I have no beef, but I do have a beef about the lack of representation for us seniors. Once you retire no one gives a hoot about you. If you haven't been able to salt it away for a rainy day, TO BAD, SO SAD, your Government. So take what we give you and shut up. Nobody listens to us and nobody cares.:argue2:

[trooper]

I second cats thread.. I'm a member of the IBEW Local 424. In construction, there are no seniority positions and you can get run off just as you can do in a non union environment. If you take a job through your respective hall, it's mandatory that you do a pee test and maybe a mouth swab as well. I've been a member since 1999 and have enjoyed the superb training and benifits that we get as members. I have seen both sides of the fence, union and non union. Believe me, I prefer a union site. Now the local is promoting a code of excellance course. This informs members how to be more competitive against the non union worker, and explains why the unions have been loosing a very large chunk of the market share to the Non union sector in the past 20 or so years. The big problem is the present alberta gov't is viewed by most union members as anti- union. an example would be the anti salting law that was passed a year or two ago.

[pogo]

usless people

...........mmm hmm.

[silver]

Right off the bat, I do not trust big government, big business, or big unions. They all have their own agenda, usually hidden, and it rarely works for my benefit. Last year, the OE brought in crane operators from the states for the big turnarounds even though there journeyman out of work in this country.This was according to a couple of local union men that did work the shutdowns. Another thing that bugs me is the habit of giving dues money to the big labour organizations that support gun control. Didnt Barb Byers fly over Fort Mac a few years ago and pronounce it an evil and dirty place? I am considering joining a union. The cut in pay would be made up for by the better benefits. Having gone through a bad situation, it might be a good idea to have somebody at my back. No one situation is perfect, they each have their good and bad points. I guess we each have to look at the different ways of doing things and see what fits us best.

[catnthehat]

Right off the bat, I do not trust big government, big business, or big unions. They all have their own agenda, usually hidden, and it rarely works for my benefit. Last year, the OE brought in crane operators from the states for the big turnarounds even though there journeyman out of work in this country.This was according to a couple of local union men that did work the shutdowns. Another thing that bugs me is the habit of giving dues money to the big labour organizations that support gun control. Didnt Barb Byers fly over Fort Mac a few years ago and pronounce it an evil and dirty place? I am considering joining a union. The cut in pay would be made up for by the better benefits. Having gone through a bad situation, it might be a good idea to have somebody at my back. No one situation is perfect, they each have their good and bad points. I guess we each have to look at the different ways of doing things and see what fits us best.

It sounds lie you don't tryst anybody, which is not a bad thing, actually.
As far as OE955 bringing in workers from the States, or Europe, there is something called a Labour market Opinion.
When the union cannot get qualified people in Canada to supply the contractor, the particular contractor applies to be able to bring in qualified workers form other areas through the LMO.
That is more than likely where these crane operators came from .
The reason there were operators out of work and these people were brought in would be because
A: workers with a site restriction
B:Workers not ticketed to run the particular rigs
C: workers that had failed A&D issues and were not allowed a dispatch until their programs were finished.
These are the three main reasons that could be found for a union going out of country for workers.
Now, if there were journeymen out of work that were NOT in the union, and they did not apply to work under a permit for the hall for whatever reason, that is their problem , not the union's.
You Hear all kinds if stories from the filed.
last week I was told a particular contractor had more than 30 workers on a site form out of province without dispatches, etc, while out members were out of work.
That person was told that I had all the dispatches for that company, and that I had gone over the daily time sheets as well with the manager.
What we found was a complete match of all workers to dispatches/time sheets, so that was nothing but rumour.
I have to look into these things however, and do every time I am asked to

If you look at the wage/benefit that the union is offering , and it does not match up with what you are making now, why would you switch to work union?

Take a good look however, because there are SOME non- union companies out there that treat their employees very well, and have a higher wage and pension and health and welfare package than some of the unions.

Now as far as politics go, show me a political part that is all for us keeping our guns, raising wages, helping the elderly, giving back our hospital system tom us the way it was , and all the other GOOD things and none of the BAD things, and will do it not just promise it and that party will get my vote!
Cat

[great white whaler]

have never worked for a union ' i have always worked for independent business 'and always got the ****ty end the stick 'where as in a union i would have been taking care of .75 % of canadian business don't have a pension play for there employees .

[Cal]

I dont hate the unions, I thank them for pushing up the wages and getting saftey and benifits programs in place for the rest of us. That being said I've worked union jobs a couple of times and will never again do that. The ones I worked for seemed to promote poor work ethics, provide a place for dog ****ers to make a good living without working up a sweat, and lack any kind of real world efficiancy. Too much time spent on a union site and I get the strong urge to take my clothes off and start flinging my own poop.

[catnthehat]

I dont hate the unions, I thank them for pushing up the wages and getting saftey and benifits programs in place for the rest of us. That being said I've worked union jobs a couple of times and will never again do that. The ones I worked for seemed to promote poor work ethics, provide a place for dog ****ers to make a good living without working up a sweat, and lack any kind of real world efficiancy. Too much time spent on a union site and I get the strong urge to take my clothes off and start flinging my own poop.

I've run into workers like that before myself, and would refuse to work with the.
If I was forced to, I left and let the Hall and management know WHY I left.
rarely was the day that I was leaving a site before I was asked to come to work for anothewr contractor - my answer was ALWAYS the same
" Check with the hall, if it's okay with them and they dispatch me, I'm your man - if not, forget it, I'll go on the out of work board and wait for a job ."
A man makes his own reputation as far as I am concerned , and there are good and bad reputations out there on both sides!!:)
Cat

[209x50]

I dont hate the unions, I thank them for pushing up the wages and getting saftey and benifits programs in place for the rest of us. That being said I've worked union jobs a couple of times and will never again do that. The ones I worked for seemed to promote poor work ethics, provide a place for dog ****ers to make a good living without working up a sweat, and lack any kind of real world efficiancy. Too much time spent on a union site and I get the strong urge to take my clothes off and start flinging my own poop.
Well put, I don't hate unions, they just aren't for me based on my experience in one.

[catnthehat]

Well put, I don't hate unions, they just aren't for me based on my experience in one.

I thought like that at one time, and it was hard for me to join the carpenters after first working with the OE's, but came to realize tha I amy be able to change attitudes through example.
nobody slacked on my crews that I ran or they were gone, through a progress9ve disciplanary system, but I would give them a chance to prove themselves first.
If the lazy drews you were on were condoned by the foreman, I would not work there either......
Cat

[silver]

Cat, you missed the part where I said the cut in pay would be made up by the better benefits. The union pay rate is two bucks an hour less than nonunion but there is a higher copay on dental with non union. There is a pension plan with union. As to makeing political contributions, that is something I would prefer to decide for myself, not have somebody do for me.

[catnthehat]

Cat, you missed the part where I said the cut in pay would be made up by the better benefits. The union pay rate is two bucks an hour less than nonunion but there is a higher copay on dental with non union. There is a pension plan with union. As to makeing political contributions, that is something I would prefer to decide for myself, not have somebody do for me.

I didn't miss it, but what I was trying to relay is that sometimes it is not always the case -m not all unions have the same type of plans.
As far as political contributions go, there are some things i am not in favour of either, and I voice my opinion whenever I can.
Cat

[pogo]

I didn't miss it, but what I was trying to relay is that sometimes it is not always the case -m not all unions have the same type of plans.
As far as political contributions go, there are some things i am not in favour of either, and I voice my opinion whenever I can.
Cat

Exactly. In this way, mostly mid to large size companies, can benefit from an organized work force. SOMETIMES....the organized workers have even gone forth and secured revenue generating contracts FOR the company. Imagine that! A measure of cooperation and collaboration for a common goal between a certified union and a company.

WORKS for me!

[Sundancefisher]

EARLY NEED FOR UNIONS

Labour Unions sprung up originally to protect workers rights via an organized solid alliance of fellow workers. One for all and all for one.

PROTECTION OF STATUS QUO

The problem with the system now is it is a protection for mediocrity. I have a lot of experience with unions and by and far the majority of what they do adds little value to society. Unions protect employees from not caring about their job and not trying their best...why...because any extra effort on the part of the "union man" leads to intense peer pressure to join the ranks and slow down and not make the others look bad. To can a bad employee takes a lot of work, time and money. Other employees see people getting away with crap and that draws them down also. A transit employee that should true customer service gets paid the same as the employee that give a rats azz and poor customer service. Employees that break significant rules can get 1 week off with pay as punishment. Unions really breed small c localized communism. Same pay for work regardless of quality or productivity.

POWER TO THE FEW...NOT THE PEOPLE

I worked for enough unions to see that power corrupts absolutely. Senior leaders share a desire for power and influence and usually at the expense of others. Leading by intimidation is common place.

PRODUCTIVITY DRAIN

I personally seen horrible work ethics at union jobs. I know guys that went to sleep after starting jobs or hung out at fast food joints. A buddy started with Calgary Parks and Rec doing grounds keeping. He was told by his supervisor to start working on a stretch of land along Sarcee. At the end of the day he came back to pick him up and reemed him out bad. Why? Because he finished the whole stretch...properly...where in the past they allocated 3 days. Then he got a lecture on how to kill time. I worked for the city and province and did not take breaks cause I was busy and learning. I was actually written up for making others look bad.

I have a lot of insider knowledge as to how unions work and if and only if they were run properly would their be reason to have them. Now a days companies are more fearful of lawsuits than unions but you can't get rid of unions. Governments have in place tons of legislation to protect workers which was what unions were originally trying to get implemented. Now that the legislation is in place...unions are just there to slow productivity and keep good employees from advancing faster than bad employees.

While union boys will always protect union boys...and not all my generalizations should necessarily apply to all locals...I would love if Nenshi did a productivity task force to streamline labour and productivity in the city. Many are over paid because they don't work hard at all...we gotta weed out the slackers. Often they have a very, very short work day to begin with compared to the average person because they get to work...talk at the coffee machine for 20 minutes...head to work...then break for 15 min break at 9:30 am which is really 30 + minutes...then go for lunch at 11:45 then back at it at 1:15 then another break from 3-3:15 (really 3:30 then off at 4:30. As a tax payer it is very, very annoying.

If I was ever in the position to have a union run my career...I would run...not walk. They just are not needed anymore for government jobs.

[WCTHEMI]

I just don't know what they do for the employee any more. They take money from every cheque. Don't know of any benefits that union workers get that we don't. Vacation, hrs of work and such. Sure the union was a key factor in getting these things in place for us, but to me it seems like paying for HD tv when you don't have an HD tv. Spending money just to spend money.

[Samhael]

I thought like that at one time, and it was hard for me to join the carpenters after first working with the OE's, but came to realize tha I amy be able to change attitudes through example.
nobody slacked on my crews that I ran or they were gone, through a progress9ve disciplanary system, but I would give them a chance to prove themselves first.
If the lazy drews you were on were condoned by the foreman, I would not work there either......
Cat

Now that is well said.

Unfortunately the mjaority of unions have become a business and look to always get more, higher incomes for workers equals higher income for union bosses etc.

However Alebrta Labour laws are the worst in Canada for protecting the rights of a worker.

And without unions the average wage, benefits, for all workers would be lower.

With ~25 years in the workforce and only the lat 2 years in a union, I respect and would recommend unions for everyone. Get involved in the union and try to get its focus back on the benefit of the worker, protection of their rights not demanding more concenssions from the employer.

[Sundancefisher]

I just don't know what they do for the employee any more. They take money from every cheque. Don't know of any benefits that union workers get that we don't. Vacation, hrs of work and such. Sure the union was a key factor in getting these things in place for us, but to me it seems like paying for HD tv when you don't have an HD tv. Spending money just to spend money.

If you are a sub average employee with problems...they keep you from getting fired. If you are an above average employee they keep you from moving ahead.

IMHO