Education and Teachers

[MWD 800]

Please read the whole thing before you comment. I just saw this on Facebook and as my future Mrs is a teacher I think it is something everyone should give a quick read to.

Are you sick of highly paid teachers?

Are you sick of highly paid teachers? Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit! We can get that for less than minimum wage. ... That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours). Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations. LET'S SEE.... That's $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries). What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year. Wait a minute -- there's something wrong here! There sure is! The average teacher's salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!! Make a teacher smile; repost this to show appreciation for all educators. Update: I'm glad that many people have shown their support for teachers by reposting this note, but I am not the original author. I received this as an anonymous chain letter email, and I wanted to share it to support the public workers of Wisconsin

[eastcoast]

I agree teachers deserve what they get for doing what they do, only whiny people complain about what teachers get and how high their salaries are all the while saying the government needs better roads and a 35 billion dollar jet project, which is more important a few less potholes and a new jet project or your childs education from competent professionals?

on a side note I resent having to pay education taxes on my property tax considering I don't have any children. and if I were to have a child tommorow it would be 4-5 years before they would start school, so being a homeowner for the last 5 years and possibly paying another 5-6 years before I get any benefit from the thousands of dollars I have had to pay toward education taxes with no children,the parents are lucky I am not in charge because I would not charge the people without children education taxes and pass along the real costs to the parents who have children, I see no point in getting people with no kids or seniors subsidizing other people, same goes for city busses, museums, the zoo etc, you use it you pay for it.

[pickrel pat]

I agree teachers deserve what they get for doing what they do, only whiny people complain about what teachers get and how high their salaries are all the while saying the government needs better roads and a 35 billion dollar jet project, which is more important a few less potholes and a new jet project or your childs education from competent professionals?

on a side note I resent having to pay education taxes on my property tax considering I don't have any children. and if I were to have a child tommorow it would be 4-5 years before they would start school, so being a homeowner for the last 5 years and possibly paying another 5-6 years before I get any benefit from the thousands of dollars I have had to pay toward education taxes with no children,the parents are lucky I am not in charge because I would not charge the people without children education taxes and pass along the real costs to the parents who have children, I see no point in getting people with no kids or seniors subsidizing other people, same goes for city busses, museums, the zoo etc, you use it you pay for it.those kiddys getting educated on tax payers money are the same kiddys that will end up being your doctors and caregivers when you need them. cmon now.... its for the kids! you use it..... you pay for it? trust me.... we will be using those kids. did i mention they are kids?

[eastcoast]

those kiddys getting educated on tax payers money are the same kiddys that will end up being your doctors and caregivers when you need them. cmon now.... its for the kids! you use it..... you pay for it? trust me.... we will be using those kids. did i mention they are kids?

I have nothing against the kids at all, nor would they be denied an education if it were set up my way, it would be a shifting of funding that's all, I don't see why I have to pay for other people's children to go to school,nor should I have to subsidize bus riders or museums or zoo's, like I said you use it you pay the full cost of it.

[Lonnie]

no problem with a teachers rate of pay the problem is with the education its self it needs a complete overhaul as we now turn out educated idiots. That don't have a clue about most things in the real world.

[Wolf Medicine]

Eastcoast.. You know all them fishermen back east?? Know about EI?? Are they getting my tax dollars to work for part of the year??? They get more out of that system then they pay into it.. By your thinking if you don't use it then you shouldn't have to pay for it right?? Well why should Alberta tax payers make all them transfer payments too float which ever home province you came from?? Partly paid for the education you got, Right? Think their might be A slight chance this is the truth?? Not stating this to cause any argument. Just to show how your line of thinking goes further then just this education issue.. Just A opinion.. Good luck gents!!

WM.

[JB_AOL]

I have nothing against the kids at all, nor would they be denied an education if it were set up my way, it would be a shifting of funding that's all, I don't see why I have to pay for other people's children to go to school,nor should I have to subsidize bus riders or museums or zoo's, like I said you use it you pay the full cost of it.

What about healthcare, policing, fire? Does that apply. Only the people that Lose their houses have to pay for fire. Yeah that makes sense. Actually I only want to pay for the roads I drive on.

Sorry.. Doesn't work. You must've just finished doing your taxes and are a little bitter. You could always just go home and live off EI. Oh wait, if no one pays it, there is none.

By us paying taxes and paying for our children to go to school we are planning for the future. Our kids are the ones who will be trying to save your "eastcoast" ass once you have a heart attack. Or they could just leave you.

[crawfy]

Please read the whole thing before you comment. I just saw this on Facebook and as my future Mrs is a teacher I think it is something everyone should give a quick read to.

Are you sick of highly paid teachers?

Are you sick of highly paid teachers? Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit! We can get that for less than minimum wage. ... That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours). Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations. LET'S SEE.... That's $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries). What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year. Wait a minute -- there's something wrong here! There sure is! The average teacher's salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!! Make a teacher smile; repost this to show appreciation for all educators. Update: I'm glad that many people have shown their support for teachers by reposting this note, but I am not the original author. I received this as an anonymous chain letter email, and I wanted to share it to support the public workers of Wisconsin

Having a couple of kids myself i would gladly pay higher taxes for wages for teacher,firefighters, nurses, ect. Its the politictions wasting my tax dollars on frivolous things that i cant stand.

[Private Ear]

I have nothing against the kids at all, nor would they be denied an education if it were set up my way, it would be a shifting of funding that's all, I don't see why I have to pay for other people's children to go to school,nor should I have to subsidize bus riders or museums or zoo's, like I said you use it you pay the full cost of it.

As far as the paying school taxes, I look at it this way. I have no children in school but the kids in the system right now are the taxpayers of tomorrow.

An argument could be made that anyone without kids is not contributing to the future tax base and therefore should be paying more.

Careful what you wish for:)

As far as the original post. Good one MWD

[eastcoast]

Eastcoast.. You know all them fishermen back east?? Know about EI?? Are they getting my tax dollars to work for part of the year??? They get more out of that system then they pay into it.. By your thinking if you don't use it then you shouldn't have to pay for it right?? Well why should Alberta tax payers make all them transfer payments too float which ever home province you came from?? Partly paid for the education you got, Right? Think their might be A slight chance this is the truth?? Not stating this to cause any argument. Just to show how your line of thinking goes further then just this education issue.. Just A opinion.. Good luck gents!!

WM.

do you think cause I am from the east coast that I fish? I have never been on a fishing boat or fished in my entire life, I have lived in alberta for 11 years and am in the same boat as you paying for them, same goes for the farmers in alberta getting tax breaks while they live in arizona half the year, drive new diesel trucks and complain about having no money.

we should take care of the poorest and the people who can't take care of themselves, everybody else should take care of themselves.

[TomE]

I agree teachers deserve what they get for doing what they do, only whiny people complain about what teachers get and how high their salaries are all the while saying the government needs better roads and a 35 billion dollar jet project, which is more important a few less potholes and a new jet project or your childs education from competent professionals?

on a side note I resent having to pay education taxes on my property tax considering I don't have any children. and if I were to have a child tommorow it would be 4-5 years before they would start school, so being a homeowner for the last 5 years and possibly paying another 5-6 years before I get any benefit from the thousands of dollars I have had to pay toward education taxes with no children,the parents are lucky I am not in charge because I would not charge the people without children education taxes and pass along the real costs to the parents who have children, I see no point in getting people with no kids or seniors subsidizing other people, same goes for city busses, museums, the zoo etc, you use it you pay for it.

:snapoutofit:

Wow! Should have kept that Side note to yourself Laddie..I Suppose I should Resent that too..My Oldest is out of School now and My son Graduates in June...And to hell with the People in Rural Areas all over Canada that our Taxes Support in providing Roads, Snow Clearing, Phone Service, Doctors,(Cause I don't get sick), Firefighters and on and on...They should move to Cities...Wow....Try Running for Gov on that Platform...

[eastcoast]

What about healthcare, policing, fire? Does that apply. Only the people that Lose their houses have to pay for fire. Yeah that makes sense. Actually I only want to pay for the roads I drive on.

Sorry.. Doesn't work. You must've just finished doing your taxes and are a little bitter. You could always just go home and live off EI. Oh wait, if no one pays it, there is none.

By us paying taxes and paying for our children to go to school we are planning for the future. Our kids are the ones who will be trying to save your "eastcoast" ass once you have a heart attack. Or they could just leave you.

well I pay taxes that go toward healthcare,also in my property taxes that go toward policing and fire, and I have fire insurance for my house,and I pay gas taxes 10c a litre that go toward roads aswell as registration and insurance.

I did just finish my taxes and got a good refund even though I still paid in about 15 g after my refund,i have no problem paying taxes for fire,cops,army,coast guard what I do have a problem with is subsidizing other people who don't bear the full cost of what they do,I don't get a tax break being married and no kids, married couples get tax breaks if they have kids they can write them off as dependants,and we both pay for education taxes eventhough I don't have kids tell me how that fair?

ei is an insurance that's why it's called employment insurance not the same thing to get ei you must pay into it.

I am not advocating no education I am advocating the parents of the children should bear more of the costs toward instead of relying on people without kids to pay for something they get nothing from,it cost me about $700 a year in education taxes on my property tax and unknown else on my provincial taxes toward education,I don't really have a problem with the provincial part more toward the property tax part,so simple math $700 a year for say 10 years before I have children go to school equals $7000 for nothing that's alot of money that I worked for to get nothing,and they only increase every year,I feel the same way about the lrt and bus system by the way im not picking on kids or education, people should pay the full ammount of what they use and not be subsidized by others who don't use it.

[eastcoast]

:snapoutofit:

Wow! Should have kept that Side note to yourself Laddie..I Suppose I should Resent that too..My Oldest is out of School now and My son Graduates in June...And to hell with the People in Rural Areas all over Canada that our Taxes Support in providing Roads, Snow Clearing, Phone Service, Doctors,(Cause I don't get sick), Firefighters and on and on...They should move to Cities...Wow....Try Running for Gov on that Platform...

well I never said it would be a succesful platform:scared0018:

and im not planning on running for anything just some personal feeling that people should be treated fairly and only have to pay for what they use,governments know the system is complicated and they take advantage of it and raise rates all the time.

[TomE]

well I never said it would be a succesful platform:scared0018:

and im not planning on running for anything just some personal feeling that people should be treated fairly and only have to pay for what they use,governments know the system is complicated and they take advantage of it and raise rates all the time.

LOL! I Hear ya but be careful what you wish for..I live and Work in Calgary. I'd say 1/4 of the People I work with live outside the city in Bedroom Communities and Pay no Taxes in Calgary..Should Calgary put Toll Booths at each entrance to the City? My Property Taxes continue to Rise and our New Mayor keeps a Tax Break from the Provincial Gov't to offset Rising costs of maintaining the Roads...Pay for what you use?...Hmmm.. Try taking your Family to the Zoo in Calgary..it's expensive yet Heavily subsidized, but...I'm sure only Calgarians go there..

[Heron]

well I never said it would be a succesful platform:scared0018:

and im not planning on running for anything just some personal feeling that people should be treated fairly and only have to pay for what they use,governments know the system is complicated and they take advantage of it and raise rates all the time.

Uh... I presume you were once a student?

[eastcoast]

Uh... I presume you were once a student?

yes and my parents paid for it.

[pickrel pat]

eastcoast..... there are some pretty poor familys out there.... a poor family with say .... 4 or 5 kids wouldnt be able to afford to send kids to school. it may even be the parents fault that they are poor.( booze, drugs, poor life choices....) you get the picture. is it fair these kids get left behind from the rest of the world? no its not. would you eastcoast, say screw the poor kids? or would you donate a small fraction of your earnings to help the less fortunate kids? remember.... its not the kids fault...... they are at our mercy... so.....you say screw em?

[eastcoast]

LOL! I Hear ya but be careful what you wish for..I live and Work in Calgary. I'd say 1/4 of the People I work with live outside the city in Bedroom Communities and Pay no Taxes in Calgary..Should Calgary put Toll Booths at each entrance to the City? My Property Taxes continue to Rise and our New Mayor keeps a Tax Break from the Provincial Gov't to offset Rising costs of maintaining the Roads...Pay for what you use?...Hmmm.. Try taking your Family to the Zoo in Calgary..it's expensive yet Heavily subsidized, but...I'm sure only Calgarians go there..

calgary isn't half as bad as edmonton for this, the majority of people in calgary actually live in calgary edmonton it's about 70%. id be in favour of toll booths personally but it would be a major pain for traffic disruption.

[eastcoast]

eastcoast..... there are some pretty poor familys out there.... a poor family with say .... 4 or 5 kids wouldnt be able to afford to send kids to school. it may even be the parents fault that they are poor.( booze, drugs, poor life choices....) you get the picture. is it fair these kids get left behind from the rest of the world? no its not. would you eastcoast, say screw the poor kids? or would you donate a small fraction of your earnings to help the less fortunate kids? remember.... its not the kids fault...... they are at our mercy... so.....you say screw em?

I said we should take care of the poorest people in this thread and in that case yes we should,im not talking about the poorest of the poor I am talking about the middle class families who can afford it, not only do they get tax breaks for having children now they get $100 for each child,nobody made anybody have children it's a choice.

[greylynx]

:innocent:

[TomE]

Please read the whole thing before you comment. I just saw this on Facebook and as my future Mrs is a teacher I think it is something everyone should give a quick read to.

Are you sick of highly paid teachers?

Are you sick of highly paid teachers? Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit! We can get that for less than minimum wage. ... That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours). Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations. LET'S SEE.... That's $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries). What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year. Wait a minute -- there's something wrong here! There sure is! The average teacher's salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!! Make a teacher smile; repost this to show appreciation for all educators. Update: I'm glad that many people have shown their support for teachers by reposting this note, but I am not the original author. I received this as an anonymous chain letter email, and I wanted to share it to support the public workers of Wisconsin

Teachers are worth their weight in Gold..:sHa_shakeshout:

[Okotokian]

:innocent:

:love0025:

LOL Ain't gonna be no winners in this one boys. Let's talk some hunting and fishing and outdoors. ;)

[pickrel pat]

I said we should take care of the poorest people in this thread and in that case yes we should,im not talking about the poorest of the poor I am talking about the middle class families who can afford it, not only do they get tax breaks for having children now they get $100 for each child,nobody made anybody have children it's a choice.in case you havnt noticed, but in the last few years, a hell of alot of " middle class " people are struggling to survive. education isnt a priveledge anymore..... its a neccesity! dear government......please tax me so that everyone is insured an education. p.s..... dont tax me for a new arena or the indy 500. it could be better spent elsewhere.

[TomE]

calgary isn't half as bad as edmonton for this, the majority of people in calgary actually live in calgary edmonton it's about 70%. id be in favour of toll booths personally but it would be a major pain for traffic disruption.

I disagree..Many Bedroom Communities around Calgary..I am not endorsing Toll Booths..If it was a big concern I'd move to Airdrie...You are missing my Point..We share the Misery to conform to a Civilized Society..Well Mostly Civilized....Oh, And did your Parents send you to Private School?
Maybe a flat tax of 10% across the Board? The Guy raising his Family on
$30 G's a year pays $3 G's..The guy Raising his Family on $100 G's pays $10 G's.
Someone, Somewhere would complain about that too..

[WCTHEMI]

IBTL:sHa_shakeshout:

[eastcoast]

in case you havnt noticed, but in the last few years, a hell of alot of " middle class " people are struggling to survive. education isnt a priveledge anymore..... its a neccesity! dear government......please tax me so that everyone is insured an education. p.s..... dont tax me for a new arena or the indy 500. it could be better spent elsewhere.

yeah I have had those pains aswell, did I get a tax break and not have to pay education taxes while I was struggling? everybody makes their own deal in life you get what you give,I moved to edmonton 11 years ago with $200 in my pocket and now have a nice home and decent life, the people I see complaining most of the time are the people who don't try to get ahead in life but complain about everybody else leapfrogging them.

I agree the arena and indy are an absolute waste of money and time, I just want to add a few more to it like education taxes, busses, the zoo, the muttart etc,nobody should have to pay for things they don't use except the bare essentials like the army,police,fire the coast guard etc.

[eastcoast]

I disagree..Many Bedroom Communities around Calgary..I am not endorsing Toll Booths..If it was a big concern I'd move to Airdrie...You are missing my Point..We share the Misery to conform to a Civilized Society..Well Mostly Civilized....Oh, And did your Parents send you to Private School?
Maybe a flat tax of 10% across the Board? The Guy raising his Family on
$30 G's a year pays $3 G's..The guy Raising his Family on $100 G's pays $10 G's.
Someone, Somewhere would complain about that too..

edmonton has a larger greater area, calgary has airdrie,okatoks and cochrane, edmonton has sherwood park, st alberta, fort saskatchewan, spruce grove, stony plain, devon, leduc etc here are some stats.


In 2006, the City of Calgary had a population of 988,193
entire metropolitan area had a 2006 population of 1,079,310
the difference is 91117 who don't live in calgary.

edmonton's population in 2006 had a population of 730,372
entire metropolitan area had a population of 1,034,945
the difference is 304572 who don't live in edmonton.

[pickrel pat]

east...... im with you on not wanting to pay taxes on things we dont use, but education is different..... we all "use" it. and "need" it. do we all use the new arena? ... no.... are we all going to watch the indy races? .... no..... do we use and need education?...... you bet! im done. bye yall.

[savage shooter]

I'm dating a teacher. She gets paid waaaay too much. She gets home around 4-5 o'clock, gets TONS of ridiculous hollidays. Gets a salary of around 60k which equals about $30/hr IF she worked 40 hours a week (she doesn't) and IF she worked all year round. So it probably equals greater than $40 an hour. Let's not forget all the ridiculous personal days and huge allotment of sick days she gets too!

...and then she gets to collect EI in the summer! It's ****ing ridiculous. She's spoiled and WAY WAY WAY over paid and I tell her so.

[Okotokian]

I'm dating a teacher. She gets paid waaaay too much. She gets home around 4-5 o'clock, gets TONS of ridiculous hollidays. Gets a salary of around 60k which equals about $30/hr IF she worked 40 hours a week (she doesn't) and IF she worked all year round. So it probably equals greater than $40 an hour. Let's not forget all the ridiculous personal days and huge allotment of sick days she gets too!

...and then she gets to collect EI in the summer! It's ****ing ridiculous. She's spoiled and WAY WAY WAY over paid and I tell her so.

Fake post. Imaginary girlfriend. LOL

Personal days? You mean my wife can take a day off whenever she chooses? Man, we never knew! And the school board certainly told everyone they couldn't. ;)

They also can't collect EI in the summer. The contracts are 12 month. Maybe she has collected EI after she's been fired or not had her contract renewed because of her obvious lack of work ethic. LOL

Move along, nothing to see here.

[savage shooter]

Fake post. Imaginary girlfriend. LOL

Personal days? You mean my wife can take a day off whenever she chooses? Man, we never knew! And the school board certainly told everyone they couldn't. ;)

They also can't collect EI in the summer. The contracts are 12 month. Maybe she has collected EI after she's been fired or not had her contract renewed because of her obvious lack of work ethic. LOL

Move along, nothing to see here.

Actually, it's 100% true as she's told it to me. Maybe Things are different in Okotok than they are here...

Even if we ignore the 'personal days' and EI, they still get paid sick days which more normal working folk don't get and are still waaaaay overpaid with way too much vacation.

[eastcoast]

Actually, it's 100% true as she's told it to me. Maybe Things are different in Okotok than they are here...

Even if we ignore the 'personal days' and EI, they still get paid sick days which more normal working folk don't get and are still waaaaay overpaid with way too much vacation.

if you can't beat em join them:scared0018:

[FCLightning]

Oh, And did your Parents send you to Private School?

Even then the public tax coffers would have paid for his education. Private schools receive gov't funding for the students who attend there.

[Okotokian]

Actually, it's 100% true as she's told it to me. Maybe Things are different in Okotok than they are here...

Even if we ignore the 'personal days' and EI, they still get paid sick days which more normal working folk don't get and are still waaaaay overpaid with way too much vacation.

Actually many many people get paid sick days. I can take 6 months worth before it kicks over to insurance. I think I took a sick day last year.....

[TheClash]

interesting response from a teacher:

http://front.moveon.org/the-most-aggressive-defense-of-teachers-youll-hear-this-year/?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d840515ef1f166e%2C2

the education system is a bit of a mess on both sides for all involved. But thank heaven for those teachers out there that do want to make a difference, that do love to teach and for those teachers I don't think what they get paid is unreasonable..

[JB_AOL]

It cost me about $700 a year in education taxes on my property tax and unknown else on my provincial taxes toward education,I don't really have a problem with the provincial part more toward the property tax part

So.. you're ok with paying for the prov. education tax. You just don't want to part of your property tax to go towards education? Please explain your reasoning behind this.

[JB_AOL]

Back on topic,
I think teachers are paid very well once you add up everything they get.
2 months vacation, teacher's conventions, 2 weeks off at christmas, 1 week of at easter, plus their pension & benefits.

[eastcoast]

So.. you're ok with paying for the prov. education tax. You just don't want to part of your property tax to go towards education? Please explain your reasoning behind this.

I know it ultimately comes from the same source and it's silly, but I can't see how much I have to pay provincially I see it every year on my property taxes:angry3:

[eastcoast]

Back on topic,
I think teachers are paid very well once you add up everything they get.
2 months vacation, teacher's conventions, 2 weeks off at christmas, 1 week of at easter, plus their pension & benefits.

ever hear the old saying "to the victor goes the spoils"

people do good in school then get into university and pass and become a teacher, should they work for cheap with 50 g in debt from university because you have to pay them? you guys would be terrible bosses evaluating everything every single person does every day.

[JB_AOL]

people do good in school then get into university and pass and become a teacher, should they work for cheap with 50 g in debt from university because you have to pay them?

Yes because it is their choice.
How's it different from an Engineer, Doctor or lawyer? It's your choice what you want to do and if you want to go into debt to go to post secondary. I chose what I wanted to do, knew what I'd be doing when I graduated, how much I'd be making, and that I didn't want a huge student loan when they got out.

you guys would be terrible bosses evaluating everything every single person does every day.
Thanks.. I was generalizing. I know alot better than you, what a teacher does. Both my mother & MIL are teachers, and they aren't struggling.

[eastcoast]

Yes because it is their choice.
How's it different from an Engineer, Doctor or lawyer? It's your choice what you want to do and if you want to go into debt to go to post secondary. I chose what I wanted to do, knew what I'd be doing when I graduated, how much I'd be making, and that I didn't want a huge student loan when they got out.


Thanks.. I was generalizing. I know alot better than you, what a teacher does. Both my mother & MIL are teachers, and they aren't struggling.


should they struggle?

[JB_AOL]

If they made the decision to go into debt, to go to post secondary. Yes, they should struggle. Students who work part time and go to school full time have to work alot harder than than those that don't. Struggle during school or struggle after, the choice is their's.

Do you see where I'm going with this? Teachers (in general) do not become teachers for the money. Sure the general theme, when you ask them if they are paid enough, the answer is no. I'm not a teacher, and I'm not paid enough either. It's never enough.

Oh yeah, and go drive through a school parking lot. Bet there's some pretty nice vehicles in the lot. Like I said, choices.

[Samhael]

My wife is a teacher, ~20 yrs experience.

However here are some suggestions:

Pay should not be based entirely on years of teaching plus years of education - but also performance. Six Years of education grants you higher pay, it doesn't mean what you learned will facilitate your teaching. Master's in History teaching kindergarten?

I would prefer to see a lower pay scale with more teachers/aides and much smaller mroe focused classes.

Teaching to the general level versus pushing students to their potential - when I went to school we had 3 classes for our grade A/B/C, whatever you want to call it, and yes each class was formed based on ability. This is a contentious point of view but I would prefer to see over achievers pushed, rather than ignored because they can do it.

Oh well time to :scared0018: before my wife and her friends see this and we get into a "discussion" again.

[Okotokian]

I know it ultimately comes from the same source and it's silly, but I can't see how much I have to pay provincially I see it every year on my property taxes:angry3:

The province changed the system some years ago so that local education taxes do not in fact go to local boards, but into general fund which is then doled out to each board per student. So it's almost pointless to do it.

[Heron]

A few comments from a teacher who previously worked in many other sectors....

There are good and bad employees in every profession. Please don't paint 30,000 of us with the same paint brush. In my experience there is more dead weight in other professions. I have personally seen quite a few teachers pushed out due to incompetence and stress.

I was never asked if I wanted to join the union. It is not a choice however as an educated person I understand the balance between fair treatment of employees and raw capitalism. There is a balance and this balance needs frequent adjusting. There is a system in place and it works for the most part. I think we are paid appropriately. We gave up at least 4 years of our life and spent a lot of money (some of us all by our selves) to attain a degree. Most boards have 1 or 2 “personal days” which we pay for if we take. I have taken exactly 2 sick days in 15 years.

Teaching is a great job. Teaching is a tough job. Not everyone can do it and finally I'll say what I say to everybody who wants to argue about this... If teaching looks like such an amazing job, why don't you become one?

[dumoulin]

Actually, it's 100% true as she's told it to me. Maybe Things are different in Okotok than they are here...

Even if we ignore the 'personal days' and EI, they still get paid sick days which more normal working folk don't get and are still waaaaay overpaid with way too much vacation.

Just a quick note: Teachers have to plan for their sick days which take a lot of time, they don't get paid for vacation as they are contract employees. (their salaries are simply divided in eiher 10 or 12 equal paychecks.) In addition, they don't qualify for EI either so if they loose their jobs, they are toast! Also, concider that they work in one one of the dirtyest environment--kids don't wash their hands and that they are prone to be ill. On most occasions, like most people, teachers prefer to go to work than stay home...

I just can't see how anyone would think that four or more years of university education and/or trade school is worth less that what they are getting paid. The average teacher net salary is 3500$ per month (after taxes, union dues,their pension plan, CCP, EI (for which they don't qualify))

Remember that you get what you pay for!

[dumoulin]

My wife is a teacher, ~20 yrs experience.
Pay should not be based entirely on years of teaching plus years of education - but also performance. Six Years of education grants you higher pay, it doesn't mean what you learned will facilitate your teaching. Master's in History teaching kindergarten?.

I hear what you are saying; however, what do you do with schools who stream students (private and vocational schools), inner city schools. etc... merrit pay doesn't work because it's up to the student to motivate themselves and learn what has been taught. The teachers can't cram it in the student's ear...that would be too easy! :)

[dumoulin]

Interesting note. In Finland, university students who drop out a faculty of education end up in business, law or medical school. Teachers there are paid huge, but they are also the cream of the crop and most have either a Masters degree or a Ph.D That said, the Fins are some of the most well educated folks on the planet!

Food for thaught.

[greylynx]

God Bless the A.T.A.

[Sneeze]

That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours).

Yea we should just pay them all one billion dollars a year.

Anybody that thinks the salaries of public sector employee's are somehow in touch with reality are either

a) working in the public sector
b) has a direct family member working in the public sector

[greylynx]

Yea we should just pay them all one billion dollars a year.

Anybody that thinks the salaries of public sector employee's are somehow in touch with reality are either

a) working in the public sector
b) has a direct family member working in the public sector

And another little dirty fact from statistics canada shows public sector employees making 25 percent more on average than the people who pay them. This includes all benefits.

[chasingtail]

Fire the older over paid lazy teachers and bring in new teachers that get paid less and probably work harder. There is no shortage of teachers, 100's of recent grads that can't find anything other than subbing a couple times a week, and the old retired teachers always get first shot at subbing for $600 a day instead of $200 a day for new teachers. Hey thats unions for you.

[Prdtrgttr]

Ct, you should stick to doing what your handle states.
Sub pay is a flat rate, and has nothing to do with your years of teaching experience.

[kennedy]

I really get a kick reading about the negativity towards teachers and how much they make. There must be a lot of millionaire teachers out there! Do some of you know that the average teacher is paying around 600-700 Dollars towards the unfunded pension liability dating back to the 1950? This is money that they will never see. it does not go into thei9r pension but interest from government mismanagement. yet we dont hear about those poor teachers complaining. Why? because they have class!
Oh dear, teachers make so much money that we all have big nice houses and drive mercedes.
Funny, how no one ever mentions the big time billionaires that keep screwing us up such as trying to get a subsidized arena. But lets blame teachers for high taxes because they only babysit due to some parents inability to install values into their kids. for every doctor, engineer, nurse, welder, mechanic etc, there was always a teacher. if you dont like paying taxes well take it with the government. I'm sure they need 75 million to spend on cell phone bills.

So the millionaire pays less taxes then you? Maybe! Go ask him how he does it. Do some of you realize how much private school cost? GIve progressive academy a call. Around $ 8000/yr.

How about those poor souls working two jobs the getting screwed with income tax and not being able to even collect a dime in gst credit but yet the wealfare case gets all these benefits plus a salary cause he wont get his ass out of bed?
Remenber, A teacher, nurse is a steady employable person that pays more taxes than most complainers make. In this country everyone has the choice to be whatever they want. So you want the big bucks that teachers make? go to university and spend 4-5 years of living with loans.

[kennedy]

subbing for $600 a day instead of $200 a day

You need to readjust those prices. You are very misinformed with that pay. Listen before you talk

[Sneeze]

Do some of you know that the average teacher is paying around 600-700 Dollars towards the unfunded pension liability dating back to the 1950?

Do you know how many private sector workers have NO pension liability because they have no pension?


A teacher, nurse is a steady employable person that pays more taxes than most complainers make.


I am glad we agree on the problem, teachers make too much money.


In this country everyone has the choice to be whatever they want. So you want the big bucks that teachers make? go to university and spend 4-5 years of living with loans.

You actually think the measly tuition payments a university student will pay for 4 years comes any where close to what it costs to actually putting a student through four years of school?

Us private peasants pay for that too.

[MWD 800]

wow that went sideways. Not even going to bother reading my own thread anymore. ridiculous

[chasingtail]

You need to readjust those prices. You are very misinformed with that pay. Listen before you talk

Thats what I was told by a young teacher friend of mine. So your saying a retired teacher with 40 years of experience makes the exact same as a recent grad subbing?

I don't really care how much teachers make, what I care about is allowing poor teachers to continue teaching while there are 100's of new teachers that can't get jobs. There is no shortage of teachers so we should not have to put up with poor ones.

Edit
Did a little research this time it's more like $200 for new and $400 for Retired subs. IMO recent grads should get first crack at the sub jobs over retired teachers already collecting a pension.

[260 Rem]

I was going to stay out of this discussion but it's snowing again and doesn't look I'll be able to get to the Range for a couple of days. I am retired after 32 years of "teaching", 30 of which I served as principal. I also spent many years chairing Negotiating Committies so have "negotiated" lots of Collective Agreements. Things may have changed a bit since I retired in 2002, but I think I still have a fair grasp of what is happening in classrooms. (Oh yeah, I also spent several semesters supervising student teachers for the U of A since I retired. Here's my take on take on the situation.
First, teaching like all other "occupations" is pretty reflective of society in general. A few are lazy, incompetent, and take advantage of "benefits....but most are hardworking, competent, and dedicated to their work. I suspect that teachers are more closely supervised and routinely evaluated than workers in any other occupation. Incompetence is tolerated only by Principals who are not doing a good job of evaluation.
Most teachers work long hours. I would guess the average teacher is engaged in job related activities for close to 50 hrs each week school is in session. Most teachers, put some time in on weekends and other "holidays". Many teachers are working at least 2-3 weeks before school starts in September ...sorry, make that August now!
Teachers earn a decent wage and have decent benefits... everything they earn is negotiated. There is no "overtime" ever paid, regardless of how many evenings or weekends they find themselves coaching teams or hosting science fairs.
There needs to be a good mix in terms of age, but it is not easy for those with little or no experience to get jobs. Often, principals doing the hiring are looking for somebody who has proven competence. Hard to argue preferences like that when dealing with what is in the best interest of kids.
OK folks, pile on...I'm ready!!

[Iron Brew]

Some good posts here, and some bad.

Streaming - personally VERY pro streaming. I'm also very pro real discipline consequences for actions in the class room.

Pay - Teachers who do their jobs are underpaid. Been there, done that. I now work trades. I get paid more for WAY less stress. I have two degrees and a trade ticket. I've been management through trades. Being on the journeyman trades route is simply the best. By a long shot.

Work load - Trades are much easier to deal with. I still work in the trades (millwright). I have every intention of continuing until I retire. My regret? I didn't get a ticket 20 years ago. I probably wouldn't be as appreciative of my ticket either though...

Time off - Meh - spent a good chunk of that when teaching recuperating and vegetating. When I recovered enough, I started on the curriculum for the new (read different) classes I taught. I also started on the curriculum for the classes that the government changed the curriculum of. Yup, you can slack off. But not if you are respectful of your job...

BTW, those "easy to mark" multiple choice tests? Much harder to make a valid multiple choice test than a long answer. In a class of 25 students, it is faster to mark long answer than make and mark multiple choice. I made multiple choice tests and exams (not exclusively - taught math and wanted to see the work) so the students were not walking into the diplomas and provincials unprepared. As I say, lots more work.

Anyway, yup, weed out those who don't really want the education. Weed out those who don't want to give the education. Stream the kids from about grade 3. The rest... educate or pay them appropriately. Look at what a journeyman plumber makes, or millwright, or... take your pick, then look at what those who mould the countries future make. If you pay too high, you get people who are doing it for the money. Too low and you don't get quality. (these are generalities, not absolutes).

[Redfrog]

yes and my parents paid for it.

They should ask for a refund.:thinking-006:

[Gongshow]

About the pay for subbing......the cost of a substitute is about $200 a day, whether they are a new teacher or a retired teacher. After the third consecutive day of a subbing assignment the substitutes wage changes to 1/200 of their pay according to where they fall on the pay grid. The difference is, in our board, retired teachers who are substitutes can not take assignments that are longer than three days,these are reserved for younger teachers to gain experience.

As for paying teachers based on merit, some has been said already on the topic but I'll add my two bits worth. How would the merit be assessed? Most likely through a standardized test, correct? Who would make these tests for each grade? Probably the government. So, the government would have to hire people to make these tests, and correct these tests and track teachers and their marks. Seems to me that this would cost a ton of money to do it. And teachers who change grades or are reassigned each year would be at a huge disadvantage to those who have taught the same subject for many years.

Take me for example, I have been teaching for ten years now. The first three years of my career, I was on temporary contracts and moved schools and grades each year. I wasn't proficient in the grades I taught, so my merit pay would have been low. The next three years I spent teaching special education classes. My students all had IQ's between 50-75. If they were given a standardized government test, their marks would have been extremely low, so my merit pay would have been extremely low too. Then I was back in the regular classes for the next three years, but a different grade each year. Again, my merit pay would have been low as I was not proficient in those grades. And this year I am back in special education, this time teaching students whose IQ's are between 25-50. Again, on standardized tests, these students would score very low. In fact, these students are exempted from writing the government tests.

So, to make a long point short, merit pay would not work, the system of years of schooling plus years of experience works because it is the fairest way possible to determine pay. Merit pay would work if all the students were exactly the same from kindergarten to grade twelve, but we all know that's not the case.


I didn't go into teaching for the money (my younger brother makes more than I do as an electrician, and my best friend, who didn't even graduate high school makes more than me as a salesman). I went into teaching because I enjoy working with kids and seeing their excitement when they finally "get it" and I really enjoy the coaching.


I could say more but my fingers are tired from typing!

[260 Rem]

Chasingtail - Unless agreements have changed-- Subs, regardless of grid placement (education and experience) are paid the same daily rate for the first five days in a given position. During that period, the "sick"/absent teacher is responsible to supply plans etc.
On the sixth day, the sub assumes more of a "teacher" role and is paid according to their grid placement. In the real world, there are few subs who work the same position for more than five consecutive days beacuse few teachers are absent that much in one stretch. Teachers who are absent more than 2 consecurtve days are required to provide "proof" of illness. Typically, subs who work a position for a day or two at a time do not do any of the marking and very little planning. The marking waits foir the sick teacher to return so they can do it at night!!! Because school budgets are "school based", principals tend to change subs before they qualify for grid placement to save money. Personally, I didn't do that because the change was not an educationally sound practice!
Collecting pension has nothing to do with being paid for the job you are doing.... I guess what you are suggesting is that because I am retired, I should not get the going rate for doing your job?? My pension consists of money I paid into a plan which was invested and is paying me returns. It is my "savings plan". In the year prior to retirement, I paid over $800.00 per month into my pension plan.

[Sneeze]

wow that went sideways. Not even going to bother reading my own thread anymore. ridiculous

You opened the door... I walked through it.




So, to make a long point short, merit pay would not work, the system of years of schooling plus years of experience works because it is the fairest way possible to determine pay. Merit pay would work if all the students were exactly the same from kindergarten to grade twelve, but we all know that's not the case.



Job performance & merit pay (in the real world) is evaluated by your superiors not by your product.

Imagine that, having an experienced boss that could give you a raise or fire you? The HORROR.

[Gongshow]

[QUOTE
Job performance & merit pay (in the real world) is evaluated by your superiors not by your product.

Imagine that, having an experienced boss that could give you a raise or fire you? The HORROR.[/QUOTE]



Touché

[260 Rem]

For accurate, up-to-date information...regarding agreements...google Alberta Teacher's Association and click on "Collective Agreements" ---you can access the facts for teachers in your area. Apparently the "qualifing period" for subs moving to grid is now three days, not five which was my experience prior to 2002.

[nof60]

on a side note I resent having to pay education taxes on my property tax considering I don't have any children. and if I were to have a child tommorow it would be 4-5 years before they would start school, so being a homeowner for the last 5 years and possibly paying another 5-6 years before I get any benefit from the thousands of dollars I have had to pay toward education taxes with no children,the parents are lucky I am not in charge because I would not charge the people without children education taxes and pass along the real costs to the parents who have children, I see no point in getting people with no kids or seniors subsidizing other people, same goes for city busses, museums, the zoo etc, you use it you pay for it.

I resent paying income tax to support people from the east coast

[nof60]

do you think cause I am from the east coast that I fish? I have never been on a fishing boat or fished in my entire life, I have lived in alberta for 11 years and am in the same boat as you paying for them, same goes for the farmers in alberta getting tax breaks while they live in arizona half the year, drive new diesel trucks and complain about having no money.

we should take care of the poorest and the people who can't take care of themselves, everybody else should take care of themselves.

If you had several mil invetsed in a business that feeds the world nobody would begrudge you a new pickup.

[nof60]

Actually, it's 100% true as she's told it to me. Maybe Things are different in Okotok than they are here...

Even if we ignore the 'personal days' and EI, they still get paid sick days which more normal working folk don't get and are still waaaaay overpaid with way too much vacation.

Sounds like you should have been as smart as your girlfriend and been a teacher.

[nof60]

Do you know how many private sector workers have NO pension liability because they have no pension?



I am glad we agree on the problem, teachers make too much money.



You actually think the measly tuition payments a university student will pay for 4 years comes any where close to what it costs to actually putting a student through four years of school?

Us private peasants pay for that too.

Funny how the biggest critics of education are the ones without one. Thats good though, my kids will need your kids to cook the fries and dig the ditches. My grandma always said that the lightest burden I would ever carry is an education. I am the first in my family to get one and I have made more money, paid more tax and had a far easier life because of it. Remember it only takes one generation to change your family tree, or stick whatever the case may be.

[eastcoast]

I resent paying income tax to support people from the east coast

so do I what's your point? I don't live there and I didn't set the system up in the first place.

[eastcoast]

If you had several mil invetsed in a business that feeds the world nobody would begrudge you a new pickup.

lots of people have money invested into different things, should they get government subsidies and tax breaks because of it? fair is fair if you give it to one you have to give it everybody, and if your business isn't making money or can't because of a government subsidy they sell it and get another job that's what the rest of us do,are you really doing it to feed people or are you doing it for money cause I know why I go to work and it's to feed myself.

[nof60]

lots of people have money invested into different things, should they get government subsidies and tax breaks because of it? fair is fair if you give it to one you have to give it everybody, and if your business isn't making money or can't because of a government subsidy they sell it and get another job that's what the rest of us do,are you really doing it to feed people or are you doing it for money cause I know why I go to work and it's to feed myself.

Business of all types is subsidized through tax breaks, low royalties, property tax breaks etc. If food cost what it was worth instead of our cheap food policy the farmers would not need subsidy. If you don't like farmers getting subsidies pay a farmer what his produce is worth. Maybe think of where your food came from and the work that went into growing it. Better yet if it is easy as you say why don't you buy a farm and than you can have a new diesel and winter in Arizona.

[eastcoast]

Business of all types is subsidized through tax breaks, low royalties, property tax breaks etc. If food cost what it was worth instead of our cheap food policy the farmers would not need subsidy. If you don't like farmers getting subsidies pay a farmer what his produce is worth. Maybe think of where your food came from and the work that went into growing it. Better yet if it is easy as you say why don't you buy a farm and than you can have a new diesel and winter in Arizona.

yes I know businesses of all types get subsidies and I don't think that's right either.

I thought wheat was at an all time high?

the market place sets the price it's called supply and demand.

I don't want to be a farmer, I don't complain enough, and my arm isn't hurting from having it stretched out looking for handouts.

don't think I am picking on farmers I feel the same way and the fishermen back home too, if a business or job isn't working out it should not be the responsibility of the government to keep it going forever, it's glorofied welfare and it does nothing for anybody except create a culture of dependancy, if I had a tangeable asset worth millions and I wasn't making money from it I am pretty sure I would sell it and live off the money.

[Redfrog]

"
How Taxes Work . . . the story of ten men going out to dinner representing how our tax system in the U.S. works... and why its not smart to continually overtax the rich?

This is a VERY simple way to understand the tax laws. Read on -- it does make you think!!

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men — the poorest — would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the ninth $18, and the tenth man — the richest — would pay $59.

That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement — until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language a tax cut).

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six — the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"

The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.

But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man who pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too . . . It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!".

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were FIFTY-TWO DOLLARS short of paying the bill! Imagine that!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore. There are lots of good restaurants in Monaco and the Caribbean.

Where would that leave the rest? Unfortunately, most taxing authorities anywhere cannot seem to grasp this rather straightforward logic!"

[Sneeze]

Funny how the biggest critics of education are the ones without one. Thats good though, my kids will need your kids to cook the fries and dig the ditches.

I do not understand what "education" has to do with teacher's salaries.

In your infinite wisdom o-great educated one, has there been some study or science proving that the more money we throw at teachers the better educated our children become?

The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Is it going to be tough to get that last word in... with your mouth full of fries, and poor uneducated me already gone to dig another ditch?

[dumoulin]

Funny how the biggest complainers of teacher salaries or civil employee salaries don't actually know how much they actualy make because [most] haven't gotten that far or don't really care that much..? But that's not even the point...what do you want these people to do? Cut your lawn or shovel your sidewalk before work every day so you can feel like you get more?

I just don't understand why we don't pick on unemployment, welfare, old age pensions, health care (nurses, doctors, specialists...), senators, judges, cops, firemen, etc...? For God sakes, firemen and cops just wait around until something happens, speed around in fancy vehicles and force you to pay fines! Surgeons, they just stand around and fiddle with stuff and get paid several hundreds of thousands of dollars. Heck, judges sit around and do nothing but waive a gavel around---they are get $140, 000 a year!

Why are teacher salaries the downfall of Alberta's economy ? I guess someone has to take the heat!!! Thank God the private sector is soooo efficent! Like the welders helper p*st leaning against the pipe rack, the sandblaster drunk and asleep in a tank, the taxi driver lost, ppl wasting time on online forums at work or masterbate in the can at coffee time. Yup the private sector is sooooo much accountable alright, but to whom!?! YOU!

If teachers are overpaid, so is everyone else! :snapoutofit:

[eastcoast]

Funny how the biggest complainers of teacher salaries or civil employee salaries don't actually know how much they actualy make because [most] haven't gotten that far or don't really care that much..? But that's not even the point...what do you want these people to do? Cut your lawn or shovel your sidewalk before work every day so you can feel like you get more?

I just don't understand why we don't pick on unemployment, welfare, old age pensions, health care (nurses, doctors, specialists...), senators, judges, cops, firemen, etc...? For God sakes, firemen and cops just wait around until something happens, speed around in fancy vehicles and force you to pay fines! Surgeons, they just stand around and fiddle with stuff and get paid several hundreds of thousands of dollars. Heck, judges sit around and do nothing but waive a gavel around---they are get $140, 000 a year!

Why are teacher salaries the downfall of Alberta's economy ? I guess someone has to take the heat!!! Thank God the private sector is soooo efficent! Like the welders helper p*st leaning against the pipe rack, the sandblaster drunk and asleep in a tank, the taxi driver lost, ppl wasting time on online forums at work or masterbate in the can at coffee time. Yup the private sector is sooooo much accountable alright, but to whom!?! YOU!

If teachers are overpaid, so is everyone else! :snapoutofit:

I guess you haven't figured it out yet, people just like to complain about everything and teachers are easy targets, most people don't see doctors or nurses or judges everyday they do have to deal with teachers all the time if they have kids so it's more in their life.

it's the same people who complain about the state of the roads and also complain when crews show up to fix them, they want the roads fixed just not when they are on them.

it's the same people who complain about the bums back east sitting around on ei or welfare too lazy to work, and when these lazy people come to alberta to work they complain about them working and taking jobs, and taking over etc

you see a pattern people that complain about teachers are the same people who like to complain about everything, there is nothing you can do to make them happy.

[dumoulin]

I guess you haven't figured it out yet, people just like to complain about everything and teachers are easy targets, most people don't see doctors or nurses or judges everyday they do have to deal with teachers all the time if they have kids so it's more in their life.

it's the same people who complain about the state of the roads and also complain when crews show up to fix them, they want the roads fixed just not when they are on them.

it's the same people who complain about the bums back east sitting around on ei or welfare too lazy to work, and when these lazy people come to alberta to work they complain about them working and taking jobs, and taking over etc

you see a pattern people that complain about teachers are the same people who like to complain about everything, there is nothing you can do to make them happy.

No I got that. I just wanted to expose "them" for what they really are, but you hit the nail right on the head...

[raised by wolves]

Different districts have different levels of pay for their Subs. Some districts pay a flat rate per day and the pay does not change even if the assignment is for multiple days. In most districts, there is a flat rate for half days and full days, then for anything beyond 1.5 days the salary grid is applied.

As for the complaints, quit whining about it and go back to school if you figure teachers have it so easy. Go get yourself a B.Ed. And start rolling in all that cash and all those easy to schedule "sick days" that you mention. I wish I had access to all those sick/sluff off days.

As for the EI comment, Teachers on a permanent full time contract can not claim EI. Possibly if they are only part time. Most likely if they are an Educational Assistant or Classroom Assistant. I know for certain that two of my EAs claimed EI during the summer as they were not on a yearlong contract as they were hourly wage staff.

Most of my hunting buddies are Tradesmen electricians. They all make more money than I do, their hours are much more flexible than mine and their overall schedules are much more conducive to hunting than are mine.

What about those horrible creatures known as Accountants? Don't they make ridiculous amounts of undeserved money? Who do they think they are? Going to school, earning their way, and then having the audacity of giving us a bill for their services (insert sarcasm sign).

And then, what about ProSports? Are the same whiners ready to direct their scrutiny at this relm?

Despite all this nonsense, my complaints and whining is for soldiers. They don't get paid enough for what they do, for their contributions, and the jobs that take them away from their families and things in life they would rather be doing.

It's all about perspective. For the whiners and complainers, what is it about your jobs that make you so bitter about everyone else's choice of career?

[IR_mike]

They should ask for a refund.:thinking-006:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Thanks redfrog..........classic. :)

[greylynx]

How are teachers evaluated for their work?

What percentage of students in Alberta ever make it past grade 8?

What percentage of students in Alberta ever make it to post secondary education? ....like getting a trade.

How many students are passed on from grade to grade to make the teacher look good when the student has not mastered a single item?

A lot of taxpayers are asking the same questions I am.

Remember: Answer the question. Marks will not be given for B.S.

[eastcoast]

How are teachers evaluated for their work?

What percentage of students in Alberta ever make it past grade 8?

What percentage of students in Alberta ever make it to post secondary education? ....like getting a trade.

How many students are passed on from grade to grade to make the teacher look good when the student has not mastered a single item?

A lot of taxpayers are asking the same questions I am.

Remember: Answer the question. Marks will not be given for B.S.

it's not the teachers responsibility to raise your child, if your child drops out of school how is that the teachers fault?

some question are legitimate but it seems like you are putting alot of pressure on teachers and yet telling us they make too much money at the same time,if you want teachers to raise childeren they will need a raise to go along with it.

[greylynx]

it's not the teachers responsibility to raise your child, if your child drops out of school how is that the teachers fault?

some question are legitimate but it seems like you are putting alot of pressure on teachers and yet telling us they make too much money at the same time,if you want teachers to raise childeren they will need a raise to go along with it.

You did not answer the questions eastcoast.

You get zero.

[eastcoast]

You did not answer the questions eastcoast.

You get zero.

I don't know the answers really, and im sure you probably don't either.

[nof60]

I do not understand what "education" has to do with teacher's salaries.

In your infinite wisdom o-great educated one, has there been some study or science proving that the more money we throw at teachers the better educated our children become?

The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Is it going to be tough to get that last word in... with your mouth full of fries, and poor uneducated me already gone to dig another ditch?


I will try and dumb it down a little. A teacher spent 4 to 6 years in University getting the education required to teach children. As such they are entitled to a respectable wage as is an engineer or a doctor or an accountant or your boss. They are not asking to get rich, only to be fairly compensated. They are preparing the people that will look after us in our old age and run the country after all. If you promote education at home and instill your children with the value of education teachers will bend over backwards to help them. The teachers job is to teach, not parent or babysit. There are two things that influence compensation. What you know and what you are willing to put up with. If you are willing to give up a normal life in return for an oilfield life you will get well rewarded or nobody would do it. If you have special skills you will get paid for them as they are a finite resource. I bet you hate rich people too cause they got ahead by taking advantage of poor little old you. Oh well if you want your kids to not have a better life than you had you are certainly showing them the right attitude. Their are many studies correlating education level and lifetime earnings and quality of life. Try reading a book not written by Louis Lamour sometime.

[sns2]

I agree teachers deserve what they get for doing what they do, only whiny people complain about what teachers get and how high their salaries are all the while saying the government needs better roads and a 35 billion dollar jet project, which is more important a few less potholes and a new jet project or your childs education from competent professionals?

on a side note I resent having to pay education taxes on my property tax considering I don't have any children. and if I were to have a child tommorow it would be 4-5 years before they would start school, so being a homeowner for the last 5 years and possibly paying another 5-6 years before I get any benefit from the thousands of dollars I have had to pay toward education taxes with no children,the parents are lucky I am not in charge because I would not charge the people without children education taxes and pass along the real costs to the parents who have children, I see no point in getting people with no kids or seniors subsidizing other people, same goes for city busses, museums, the zoo etc, you use it you pay for it.

I get what you are saying, but don't agree. You enjoy the benefits of living in a country whereby the citizenry is educated. We all reap the benefits. We all pay the taxes, regardless of what stage of life we are currently at or whether we choose, or are fortunate enough, to have had the opportunity to raise children. Think about it.

[Sneeze]

I will try and dumb it down a little. A teacher spent 4 to 6 years in University getting the education required to teach children. As such they are entitled to a respectable wage as is an engineer or a doctor or an accountant or your boss.

Since we are dumbing it down...You didn't answer my question. I asked for you to provide me with some evidence that high teachers salaries result in better quality education for my children.

You were unable too. Perhaps you need a few more years of school?

I will get back to my Louis Lamour while you once again scramble for an insulting last word.

[dumoulin]

Since we are dumbing it down...You didn't answer my question. I asked for you to provide me with some evidence that high teachers salaries result in better quality education for my children.

You were unable too. Perhaps you need a few more years of school?

I will get back to my Louis Lamour while you once again scramble for an insulting last word.

Sneeze, what do you consider a "high salary" to be? Just asking...

[TheClash]

The majority of the reports I have read state that students educated at a private school, which usually have a higher pay scale, a different curriculum, class size and standards over all score higher on standardized tests. Like I said, most, not all the studies I have read.

I have known a few teachers that have taught and still teach at private schools and their contracts are much different than a public school teacher. Less secure, more checks and balances etc.

[dumoulin]

The majority of the reports I have read state that students educated at a private school, which usually have a higher pay scale, a different curriculum, class size and standards over all score higher on standardized tests. Like I said, most, not all the studies I have read.

I have known a few teachers that have taught and still teach at private schools and their contracts are much different than a public school teacher. Less secure, more checks and balances etc.

To which studies are you reffering?

I would not us that information as it is wrong. Every teacher in the province is payed on the same pay grid (4-6 year of education 0-11+ years of experience) but their salaries can differ from one division to another by one or two percent (since every division is different.) Also, teachers are subject to teaching the same programs of study as mandated by Alberta Education but some any schools may offer complementary courses which isn't offered by AB ED--like hunters ed. Therefore, that school will have to charge parents for that class/ set of courses; however, teachers aren't payed any more for offering them. Finaly, teachers must be part of the ATA if tghey want to teach in Alberta which means anyone's of their jobs is as secure as the next.

In the end, the checks and balances are the same for any school....

[TheClash]

you may be right in Alberta, however I never stated it was Alberta that I know teachers that are teaching at private schools. These are teachers teaching at American schools.

[Okotokian]

teachers aren't payed any more for offering them.


I'm not sure that's true. We knew someone working at Strathcona Tweedsmuir and they got paid more. I believe some other private schools also pay less. The major schoolboards in Alberta have all banded together and negotiate as one with the ATA, but I don't think every school in the province is part of that group.

One thing to remember about many of the seemingly high performing private schools is that apart from the enrichment, richer parents, etc is the fact that many of them have entrance tests and standards. Its not hard to have a high achieving school if you refuse to admit students who aren't high achievers.

That said there are also poorly performing private schools, whose student body is often comprised of many kids who couldn't cut academically or, more often, socially, in the public schools. They often don't have as many resources or do as well.

[Sneeze]

Sneeze, what do you consider a "high salary" to be? Just asking...

I am not sure if it's a matter of "high salary". What I would condiser to be a high salary is pretty subjective.

I think the salaries of teachers could be considered "high" as they do not base them on performance, value, merit or demand.

[pickrel pat]

The majority of the reports I have read state that students educated at a private school, which usually have a higher pay scale, a different curriculum, class size and standards over all score higher on standardized tests. Like I said, most, not all the studies I have read.

I have known a few teachers that have taught and still teach at private schools and their contracts are much different than a public school teacher. Less secure, more checks and balances etc.the reason those kids in private school score higher is that they are more intelligent.(through genetics). the parents that send the kids to private school make more money than the parents that send their kids to public school. why do those parents make more money? (on average). those parents are (on average again ) more intelligent. genetics plays a big part.

[dumoulin]

The majority of the reports I have read state that students educated at a private school, which usually have a higher pay scale, a different curriculum, class size and standards over all score higher on standardized tests. Like I said, most, not all the studies I have read.

I have known a few teachers that have taught and still teach at private schools and their contracts are much different than a public school teacher. Less secure, more checks and balances etc.

To which reports and studies are you refering? Just currious...

[TheClash]

To which reports and studies are you refering? Just currious...

They were ones I read while doing my education 2500 class at the U of L...discussed the pros and cons of both public, private and charter schools etc. Do not have them with me or remember the link.

But like all studies I understand that the results can and usually are skewed towards the outcome desired by the people FUNDING the study lol.

[dumoulin]

I am not sure if it's a matter of "high salary". What I would condiser to be a high salary is pretty subjective.

I think the salaries of teachers could be considered "high" as they do not base them on performance, value, merit or demand.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure if I follow your logic. Are you saying that teachers' salary, as it is now, would be justifiable only if there were fewer teachers alltogether and more kids in class?

[TheClash]

dumoulin as far as your security comment, I am not too sure if you are totally correct either...but then again I may be wrong. I have had a few friends teach for private schools in alberta and they were never on more than a one year contract that could either be renewed or canceled each year.

maybe I am wrong about this though, do you know?

The other two teachers I am friends with that teach at private schools are both in California...and they are most definitely paid more than public teachers are.

[dumoulin]

I'm not sure that's true. We knew someone working at Strathcona Tweedsmuir and they got paid more. I believe some other private schools also pay less. The major schoolboards in Alberta have all banded together and negotiate as one with the ATA, but I don't think every school in the province is part of that group.

One thing to remember about many of the seemingly high performing private schools is that apart from the enrichment, richer parents, etc is the fact that many of them have entrance tests and standards. Its not hard to have a high achieving school if you refuse to admit students who aren't high achievers.

That said there are also poorly performing private schools, whose student body is often comprised of many kids who couldn't cut academically or, more often, socially, in the public schools. They often don't have as many resources or do as well.

Read the post again, please.

[dumoulin]

dumoulin as far as your security comment, I am not too sure if you are totally correct either...but then again I may be wrong. I have had a few friends teach for private schools in alberta and they were never on more than a one year contract that could either be renewed or canceled each year.

maybe I am wrong about this though, do you know?

The other two teachers I am friends with that teach at private schools are both in California...and they are most definitely paid more than public teachers are.

Every school division pays different amounts but within one to two percent and all have to be members of the ATA. That said, principals are not obliged to renew a (new) teachers contract; however, once they have tenure they have the same kob security as any other teacher with a long-term contract.

All this information should have been taught to you by youy ATA rep. If not, youn should take a closser look on the ATA Website and become much more familiar with policy 2.1.5.

[TheClash]

Every school division pays different amounts but within one to two percent and all have to be members of the ATA. That said, principals are not obliged to renew a (new) teachers contract; however, once they have tenure they have the same kob security as any other teacher with a long-term contract.

All this information should have been taught to you by youy ATA rep. If not, youn should take a closser look on the ATA Website and become much more familiar with policy 2.1.5.

which I would have learned if i continued down that road. My understanding from the teachers I talked to at private schools was that tenure was not as easily achieved at a private school as it is at a public school. Again I may have misunderstood.

As for pay, again my experience with that is with high end California private schools, not here in Alberta.

[dumoulin]

The Clash, reffer to these links:
http://www.teachers.ab.ca/For%20Members/Professional%20Development/Professional%20Growth%20Plans/Pages/Index.aspx

http://www.teachers.ab.ca/For%20Members/Salary%20Benefits%20and%20Pension/CollectiveAgreements/Pages/Collective%20Agreements.aspx

http://www.teachers.ab.ca/For%20Members/Salary%20Benefits%20and%20Pension/TeacherQualificationsService/Pages/Index.aspx

[TheClash]

Thanks, but I don't really care enough to wade through it all..just wanted to know if you knew...

[dumoulin]

which I would have learned if i continued down that road. My understanding from the teachers I talked to at private schools was that tenure was not as easily achieved at a private school as it is at a public school. Again I may have misunderstood.

As for pay, again my experience with that is with high end California private schools, not here in Alberta.

Tenure depends on supply and demand and it's relationship with government budgets. Also, depends on how "with it" the new teacher is and how they fit-in with students, staff and parents. No one will hire a dud if they see that person to be one! In private schools, since parents fork out more cash for an "enhanced" education, principals remain allthemore selective and can become more weiryto hand out tenures. That said, if they want to hang on to young talent, they can't lead them on too long.

[dumoulin]

Thanks, but I don't really care enough to wade through it all..just wanted to know if you knew...

I don't blame you for not wanting to sort through it...no one realy does! LOL

[TheClash]

Tenure depends on supply and demand and it's relationship with government budgets. Also, depends on how "with it" the new teacher is and how they fit-in with students, staff and parents. No one will hire a dud if they see that person to be one! In private schools, since parents fork out more cash for an "enhanced" education, principals remain allthemore selective and can become more weiryto hand out tenures. That said, if they want to hang on to young talent, they can't lead them on too long.

cool, that is what i thought.....here is something interesting i found though..will try to get the link to work

PRIVATE SCHOOLS
There are two main categories of private schools in Alberta: registered and accredited. As of January 2008, there were 10 registered and 149 accredited private schools. There are also a number of Early Childhood Services (ECS) eligible for funding as private schools. Currently, accredited private schools and ECS operators receive 60 per cent of the funding given to schools in Alberta’s public education system.
REGISTERED PRIVATE SCHOOLS
Registered private schools in Alberta
© do not receive funding from Alberta taxpayers,
© do not have to employ certificated teachers,
© do not have to teach the Alberta program of studies, and
© cannot grant high school credits.
ACCREDITED PRIVATE SCHOOLS
Accredited private schools in Alberta
© must be run by a non-profit agency;
© receive 60 per cent of the per-student instructional grant given to
public and separate schools;
© may charge tuition fees and operate for a profit;
© must offer programs approved by the Minister of Education;
© must ensure that their students write provincial achievement and
diploma examinations; and
© must employ certificated teachers; however, teachers in accredited private schools are not eligible for active membership in the ATA, and are not subject to the teaching profession’s Code of Professional Conduct.**


so...looks like for some "private" schools they do not have to teach according to the Alberta curriculum and do not have to hire certified teachers. and that teachers at other private schools are NOT members of the ATA

www.teachers.ab.ca/.../ATA/.../Going%20to%20School%20in%20Alberta.pdf

[dumoulin]

cool, that is what i thought.....here is something interesting i found though..will try to get the link to work

PRIVATE SCHOOLS
There are two main categories of private schools in Alberta: registered and accredited. As of January 2008, there were 10 registered and 149 accredited private schools. There are also a number of Early Childhood Services (ECS) eligible for funding as private schools. Currently, accredited private schools and ECS operators receive 60 per cent of the funding given to schools in Alberta’s public education system.
REGISTERED PRIVATE SCHOOLS
Registered private schools in Alberta
© do not receive funding from Alberta taxpayers,
© do not have to employ certificated teachers,
© do not have to teach the Alberta program of studies, and
© cannot grant high school credits.
ACCREDITED PRIVATE SCHOOLS
Accredited private schools in Alberta
© must be run by a non-profit agency;
© receive 60 per cent of the per-student instructional grant given to
public and separate schools;
© may charge tuition fees and operate for a profit;
© must offer programs approved by the Minister of Education;
© must ensure that their students write provincial achievement and
diploma examinations; and
© must employ certificated teachers; however, teachers in accredited private schools are not eligible for active membership in the ATA, and are not subject to the teaching profession’s Code of Professional Conduct.**


so...looks like for some "private" schools they do not have to teach according to the Alberta curriculum and do not have to hire certified teachers. and that teachers at other private schools are NOT members of the ATA

www.teachers.ab.ca/.../ATA/.../Going%20to%20School%20in%20Alberta.pdf

Ummmm registered private school are special ed. scholols and accredited private school are : religious (pre-)colleges, academic colleges, (some) universities and vocational in nature.

See : http://education.alberta.ca/parents/choice/private.aspx

[TheClash]

clears that up..cool..

[denpacc]

the reason those kids in private school score higher is that they are more intelligent.(through genetics). the parents that send the kids to private school make more money than the parents that send their kids to public school. why do those parents make more money? (on average). those parents are (on average again ) more intelligent. genetics plays a big part.

The reason that "those kids in private school score higher" is not soley intelligence via genetics. Many private schools flunk out anyone who doesn't do well thereby chopping out the less intelligent students. That means the private school's overall student base is made up of only those who "cut the grade". Many of those "kids of rich (supposedly intelligent) parents" flunk out, you just never hear about them. If you did the same at any public schools you'd get the same or similar "high grades" that they do at private schools. Plus many of the kids at private schools have parents that can afford tutors and other professionals to help their kids get better grades. That wealthy-intelligence argument is weak at best with regards to a particular private school's grade achievement.

I am not saying genetics have nothing to do with intelligence, but to say that private schools achieve higher overall marks because the parents are wealthy (therefore intelligent) is bogus IMO.

[Okotokian]

Read the post again, please.

I did. You're actually wrong on a couple counts. Check the Teaching Professions Act. There are a number of instances where Teachers can opt out of ATA membership. Also, check this from the Alberta Education website:
"All private schools... employ teachers holding valid Alberta teaching certificates but not eligible for active memberships in the ATA as per the Teaching Profession Act." http://education.alberta.ca/parents/choice/private.aspx

The ATA does not grant teaching certificates in Alberta. Alberta Education does....

The ATA does not protect private school teachers jobs. In fact it's the position of the ATA that government stop funding private schools altogther.

And as you said yourself, even public boards do not pay the same as eachother.

[Okotokian]

The reason that "those kids in private school score higher" is not soley intelligence via genetics. Many private schools flunk out anyone who doesn't do well thereby chopping out the less intelligent students. .

In fact many don't let mediocre students gain entry in the first place.

[dumoulin]

I did. You're actually wrong on a couple counts. Check the Teaching Professions Act. There are a number of instances where Teachers can opt out of ATA membership. Also, check this from the Alberta Education website:
"All private schools... employ teachers holding valid Alberta teaching certificates but not eligible for active memberships in the ATA as per the Teaching Profession Act." http://education.alberta.ca/parents/choice/private.aspx

The ATA does not grant teaching certificates in Alberta. Alberta Education does....

The ATA does not protect private school teachers jobs. In fact it's the position of the ATA that government stop funding private schools altogther.

And as you said yourself, even public boards do not pay the same as eachother.

So you mean to tell me that I have been an active member of the ATA all these years for nothing? Holly cow!

[kreator]

Not sure why anyone would want to opt out of being a member of the ATA. Are you going to defend yourself in court when some kid or parent with an axe to grind makes a completely false accusation?

[sns2]

the reason those kids in private school score higher is that they are more intelligent.(through genetics). the parents that send the kids to private school make more money than the parents that send their kids to public school. why do those parents make more money? (on average). those parents are (on average again ) more intelligent. genetics plays a big part.

I am a teacher and find a number of your comments strange to say the least. There is no such thing as a smart gene. If there were, gov'ts would be genetically modifying the human race.

Your point about parents of higher achieving children is somewhat on track. Anyone who is familiar with education knows that parents with high incomes generally have a higher level of education than lower income parents. They know the doors which education have opened for them. Thus, they value it as being important in their own children's lives. As well, they also help their children along more in school in terms of homework, tutors and such. This all works together to raising higher achieving children on the whole. You may argue, but this is fact.

As for my profession being overpaid, we are unequivocally on the lower end of university degreed professions when it comes to pay. Further, my students can leave school, take a one year course at Keyano College, get a job up in Ft. Mac and make more in their first year than the principal of the high school they graduated from.

I love my profession and can't think of anything I'd rather do, but any of you guys who are saying we are overpaid need to try and do what we do. Most of you would change your mind about our wages in a hurry.

[denpacc]

In fact many don't let mediocre students gain entry in the first place.

Agreed. Another good point that I missed.

[greylynx]

I do not understand what "education" has to do with teacher's salaries.

In your infinite wisdom o-great educated one, has there been some study or science proving that the more money we throw at teachers the better educated our children become?

The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Is it going to be tough to get that last word in... with your mouth full of fries, and poor uneducated me already gone to dig another ditch?

You guys are good at digging up information out the of ATA manual, but what studies have been done showing a linear regression, or multiple regression analysis at money thrown at teachers and the quality of education?

Surely there was an Educational Foundations 4xx course that revealed this money results study.

You guys sure do know your Ed Admin 416 ATA rules course though.

[unclebuck]

I am a teacher and find a number of your comments strange to say the least. There is no such thing as a smart gene. If there were, gov'ts would be genetically modifying the human race.

Your point about parents of higher achieving children is somewhat on track. Anyone who is familiar with education knows that parents with high incomes generally have a higher level of education than lower income parents. They know the doors which education have opened for them. Thus, they value it as being important in their own children's lives. As well, they also help their children along more in school in terms of homework, tutors and such. This all works together to raising higher achieving children on the whole. You may argue, but this is fact.

As for my profession being overpaid, we are unequivocally on the lower end of university degreed professions when it comes to pay. Further, my students can leave school, take a one year course at Keyano College, get a job up in Ft. Mac and make more in their first year than the principal of the high school they graduated from.

I love my profession and can't think of anything I'd rather do, but any of you guys who are saying we are overpaid need to try and do what we do. Most of you would change your mind about our wages in a hurry.

Both of my kids went to private school from Gr.10 - 12. They were told by their high school counsellor that they would be in the "3" classes, rather than the "0" classes. Both of them graduated with their "30's", gained university entrance with marks in the 80's, something that the public system would not have given them a chance at. Both have post graduate degrees. So much for the teachers that land an overpaid & underworked job in the public system and push their mediocre talents and agendas in the public system!!!!

Just my comment on real life as I see and have experienced.

[RandyBoBandy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU&feature=player_embedded#at=141
Just saw this today...:)