Alberta conservation plan stuns oil patch

[trouty]

wow, talking about biting the hand that feeds them. Way to protect the muskeg and mosquitoes...hopefully the oil sands boys team up and kill this. Short oil sands stocks tomorrow.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/alberta-conservation-plan-stuns-oil-patch/article1971930/

[BlackHeart]

Well now I have to start agreeing with those that say its time for the conservatives in alberta to go and bring in the wildrose......I can only conclude that currently we have a bunch of bumbling baffons in office if they are so niave to do this.

[rugatika]

WOW. Are these guys trying to get thrown out or what? I cannot even begin to fathom how little intelligence you have to have to be such a bunch of incompetents. If they were from Quebec we'd be separating by now...but these morons are actually Albertans...and they are apparently trying to chase away every oil company into Saskatchewan or something.

Astonishing.

Is there a method for recall in Alberta like BC has???

[BallCoeff.435]

Big deal, whatever.

Instead of shoveling out all the tar in just one VP's employment and retirement lifetime, they can string it out for a couple more generations. It's the tempering of sheer greed which is the real concern here.

[hillbillyreefer]

This is not written in stone,” Mr. Knight said in a press conference. “This is a consultation.”

I do believe this is called a trial balloon. See how big a turd storm develops and then back off. The Alberta Conservatives are well known for being stupid, then backing off. One more spike in the coffin.

Anyone know what the provincial election spending laws are for corporations?

[northerntrapper]

It is time the big blue machine goes down. The greenies must have infiltrated the legislature and convinced the no minds that we are now going to turn Alberta into a park. Time to turf them all. Where does Danielle stand on this?

[fordtruckin]

Well only time will teel whats going to happen!

[blackonblackfx4]

I knew i should've sold my CVE shares today

[Neil Waugh]

Actually I kinda like preserving a good chunk of northeastern Alberta so I have somewhere to go fish and hunt. The view from Milred Lake is not exactly one of my favorite spots in the world despite the Syncrude buffalo .
This is, after all, a hunting, fishing and trapping forum. Not a Hudson Bay rules oil sands development forum.
And by the way, when you rip up your PC card and join the Wildrose, you only get to cross the river once, right?
Not every time something the government does gets your goat.
Makes sense, you only get one vote.

[walking buffalo]

I posted on this proposal last fall. Don't get riled up over a newspaper article, read the real info for yourself.

Remember Bill 29 Alberta Parks Act?

The bill would have allowed the minister to make backroom deals to sell park land or allow resource extraction.

The death of bill 29 has put a wrench in the Lower Athabasca Land Use Framework. I'm glad it did.

Land Use Framework link page
http://www.landuse.alberta.ca/RegionalPlans/LowerAthabasca/Default.aspx

Lower Athabasca Land Use Framework proposal
http://www.landuse.alberta.ca/RegionalPlans/LowerAthabasca/documents/DLARP%20Regs_Document_FINAL_March_29_2011_1%2045pm .pdf

My post from last year.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=73178&highlight=lower+athabasca+park+caribou

This proposal comes from ALT. Alberta Landscape Team. Part of the ACC, Alberta Caribou Commision. Their provincial mandate is to provide recommendations for the survival of EVERY caribou herd in Alberta into the next century.

Remember now, The NEW Alberta Parks Act is in the legislature, passed first reading. The Parks Minister will have unilateral power to change land use designations or sell Parks land at will, just 60 day notice beforfe the deal takes effect, NO course for debate. See the Parks thread.http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=74680


From The ACC's Athabasca Caribou Landscape Management Options Report
May 2009.

http://www.albertacariboucommittee.c...ca-Caribou.pdf

Pg.75


Quote:
If the legal right to manage access, both to recreational users as well as industrial ones, along with the mandate to conserve and manage flora and fauna are required, then the Provincial Parks Act and accompanying regulations would appear to provide a useful option. The Provincial Parks Act would be particularly relevant if Zone 1 Areas were to be classified as Wildland Provincial Parks. This approach would align with the Alberta Biodiversity Strategy Implementation Plan, which has recommended that Alberta Parks become the lead agency to manage lands considered “high value conservation lands”.

The ALT suggests that Wildland Provincial Park designation appears to be an
appropriate legislated land management regime for Zone 1 areas. Further
evaluation of existing and proposed legislation2 and policy tools for Zone 1 Areas is recommended. Given the landscape-scale focus of this management option, it is most appropriately evaluated as part of the recently initiated Lower Athabasca Regional Planning process to ensure that the full suite of stakeholder views are acknowledged and considered.

[big-river]

I haven't Danielle stand for much of anything actually.
Just an opportunistic shark circling the Tory lifeboats.

[sjd]

I agree with Neil.

This is the biggest conservation announcement in Alberta in 50 years. Read the plan. All the conservation areas support hunting, fishing and trapping. We should be celebrating this, and I hope AFGA weighs in positvely in the consultation

99% of oil sands leases are untouched. Nothing wrong with retiring a few to get the conservation balance right.

This will be popular. If Wildrose try and make a fuss about this they'll be see as the anti-conservation party

[kreator]

I'm actually disappointed the Lakeland area wasn't included in this plan. Would have liked to see the area from Beaver Lake right through to Wolf Lake as a multi-use PRA like originally planned 30 years ago, instead of a haven for wells and cutblocks like it's turned into.

[Okotokian]

So oil companies won't be allowed to tear up 20% of the area around the Oilsands? WOW! How radical!

Quite honestly, preserving 20% of the area is an environmental whimper, not a roar. I don't think there is any reason to jump the gun just yet. I'll wait to see how many packages are actually impacted. By the same token, I don't discount the general incompetence of this government. I'm just not one of the board members who goes appoplectic anytime any environmental protection action is suggested. For those folks, paving over the entire province can't come too soon (though I wonder how they will continue to hunt and fish)

[Neil Waugh]

Go on the website and read it. Or at least try to, it's a real eye glazer.
The Lakeland is a very important and integral part of the plan.
If this goes through we may finally get K-Country North after Getty promised it 20 years ago.

[Sneeze]

Short oil sands stocks tomorrow.



While I disagree with the Alberta government locking away billions of dollars of income for Albertan's... I think the even worse idea here is to short oil sands stocks at the same time we are bombing Libya.

That would be like eating rocks. (Filling, but counter productive)...

[chasingtail]

I agree with the government here, a lot of the areas affected like most of the Oilsands companies are owned by Americans and China anyways. Lots of Oil up there, lets save some for future generations. The Oilsands should only be developed as fast as Canadian labor will allow. No more foreign workers.

[kreator]

Go on the website and read it. Or at least try to, it's a real eye glazer.
The Lakeland is a very important and integral part of the plan.
If this goes through we may finally get K-Country North after Getty promised it 20 years ago.

Honestly, I tried to get through some of it, but after a while I got tired of reading paragraph after paragraph of vague and unsubstantial pablum.

If this means Lakeland turns into 'K-Country North', they can shove it. I don't want golf courses, a luxury hotel on top of the Touchwood Hill, lake lots and imported white sand, which is constantly rumored to happen. Expand the PRA boundaries, leave it wild, upgrade the current facilities (start with re-opening the Ironwood Lake campground) and promote traditional use.

[sjd]

Yep, the plan is pretty tough sleddin' but the map explains a lot

http://www.landuse.alberta.ca/Resources/MapsDigitalData/documents/Proposed%20Conservation%20and%20RecreationTourism% 20in%20the%20Lower%20Athabasca-Lower%20Peace%20%202011-04-05%20FINAL.pdf

[Redfrog]

"though I wonder how they will continue to hunt and fish"

The other side of the equation. Game farms and stocked dugouts.:sHa_shakeshout:

[blackpheasant]

Old Stelmach he's so crafty LOL, I especially like his timing on things, like the blundered "New Royalty Plan " where all Albertans were to get there "Fair Share", I never did get my share, anyone else ?...these guys are always about 2 years behind the curve on everything they do, I wonder what else Old Ed has up his sleeve for us...

[Okotokian]

"though I wonder how they will continue to hunt and fish"

The other side of the equation. Game farms and stocked dugouts.:sHa_shakeshout:

Hey, gotta support the recreation business. It's the Alberta Advantage. If there's a way to commercialize and ruin a so-called "public resource"...

[Tundra Monkey]

While I disagree with the Alberta government locking away billions of dollars of income for Albertan's...

“Largely, they’ve kept it on the periphery of the rich lands,” said Dave Pryce, CAPP’s vice-president of operations. But CAPP is already girding for a fight as it seeks more money for companies that lose land."

I'm thinking that this is all on the up an up. I'm sure that the Govt of AB would not empty their pockets and I'm sure that the oil companies would be screaming at the top of their lungs if this was bad. It is likely areas that are not mined....already mined or of no use to em'. Smoke and mirrors to make the greenies a little more comfortable. Gotta be tough to make that project look good on that level.....but they gotta try.

tm

[huntfishtrap]

I really doubt that the full blown version will go through. Like Knight said...up for consultation...in any case I can't imagine how much us taxpayers will be paying for compensation to companies that have bought leases, and I might add just recently from the Govt. and proved up reserves which are worth a ton of money (tens of billions at least). Get out your chequebook again Alberta taxpayer, compensation will be horiffic! Most of the areas I saw included were not for mining but In-Situ operations....strangely enough I didn't see any logging restrictions mentioned but I may not have got the whole scoop.

[surhuntsalot]

I'm actually disappointed the Lakeland area wasn't included in this plan. Would have liked to see the area from Beaver Lake right through to Wolf Lake as a multi-use PRA like originally planned 30 years ago, instead of a haven for wells and cutblocks like it's turned into.

From what I've heard, there were alot of ghosts that came with that... An eventual return of traplines to the crown... further land use restrictions (not just for the oil companies)... Devlopment and promotion of designated trails, ecouraging WMU 514 as the "Go To" area for ATV use/hunting area as compensation for eastern slope restrictions....

The first places most people go to for their moose & deer is the cutblocks. They get there via seismic lines and old logging roads. Seems to be providing good habitat for wildlife, as well as acccess for those hunting them.

As for me I like the area left the way it is. The oil and forestry work helps me buy my fuel and bullets to hunt. If you want more restrictions, you have WMU 841 and it"s "Special Places" designation. Still not enough restrictions for ya ? There's always Jasper or Banff...

[hillbillyreefer]

The scary thing is the leases have already been sold to the companies. They are creating development plans based on these leases. Then the socialists jerk it away from them. Makes Alberta look pretty anti business. This is the second time these morons have pulled this crap. Lets put them back in the hog barns before they can try it for a third time.

[surhuntsalot]

“I'm thinking that this is all on the up an up. I'm sure that the Govt of AB would not empty their pockets and I'm sure that the oil companies would be screaming at the top of their lungs if this was bad. It is likely areas that are not mined....already mined or of no use to em'. tm

It has already had several "Cunsultations" in the Lakeland... The residents as well as members of the ATA, and those with a vested interest DID scream and shout about how they were Against it.

In the end I'm sure the headlines will read "After holding consultations with those concerned, we are pleased to announce the plan has been put through..." !

Just like WMU 841 was rammed down our throats in the past.:angry3:

[drake]

but how will the unskilled laborers of the future ever find the money to pay off those great big diesel trucks?......

Dear SRD,

Please protect and conserve our province.....just not at the expense of my rig rocket!!

regards,

StrongBack WeakMind

[hillbillyreefer]

but how will the unskilled laborers of the future ever find the money to pay off those great big diesel trucks?......

Dear SRD,

Please protect and conserve our province.....just not at the expense of my rig rocket!!

regards,

StrongBack WeakMind

Maybe the Yankees will sell us some of that nice clean Gulf of Mexico oil, I prefer the stuff with a bit of dolphin grease mixed in. Kinda like biodiesel only different.

[Sundancefisher]

This is absolutely crazy... Taking away rights that companies have on the books to grow their company is mostly irreplaceable. That is why they invested here and then passed on other opportunities.

Why not just set out clear guidelines for reclamation if that is the concern.

[Grizzly Adams]

Should we really be surprised.:lol: And, when the phones start ringing in Edmonton, they'll reverse themselves again. What a bunch of idiots we have, running the province.

Grizz

[hal53]

but how will the unskilled laborers of the future ever find the money to pay off those great big diesel trucks?......

Dear SRD,

Please protect and conserve our province.....just not at the expense of my rig rocket!!

regards,

StrongBack WeakMind
Hello weak Mind,,,the kids work hard for their money as I see everyday,,,if thats what they choose to spend it on,,,I guess that's their decision... if you cant afford it...please don't slam the 20 something year olds I had out this morning moving the rig at 0430 to get in on the little frost we had....

[kreator]

From what I've heard, there were alot of ghosts that came with that... An eventual return of traplines to the crown... further land use restrictions (not just for the oil companies)... Devlopment and promotion of designated trails, ecouraging WMU 514 as the "Go To" area for ATV use/hunting area as compensation for eastern slope restrictions....

The first places most people go to for their moose & deer is the cutblocks. They get there via seismic lines and old logging roads. Seems to be providing good habitat for wildlife, as well as acccess for those hunting them.

As for me I like the area left the way it is. The oil and forestry work helps me buy my fuel and bullets to hunt. If you want more restrictions, you have WMU 841 and it"s "Special Places" designation. Still not enough restrictions for ya ? There's always Jasper or Banff...

Yes, there is a sunset clause on the trapline in the Provincial Park, which is why I'd like to see the entire area a PRA. There is no sunset clause on the traplines in the PRA, as my family ran one on Seibert from the late 70s to the late 90s, before it changed hands.

[hillbillyreefer]

Hello weak Mind,,,the kids work hard for their money as I see everyday,,,if thats what they choose to spend it on,,,I guess that's their decision... if you cant afford it...please don't slam the 20 something year olds I had out this morning moving the rig at 0430 to get in on the little frost we had....

How'd that work out for ya? We've got enough troubles with body job tank trucks here. Can't imagine moving a service rig.

[Cattle Dog]

We have enough trouble with political and greeny americans trying to stop the proposed pipeline to usa, without the incompetent AB government stabbing the oil patch ( and alberta jobs and economy ) in the back.

[Neil Waugh]

For you younger fellows who are unfortunate victims of the "new" Alberta Education social studies and can't be blamed for being dumber than a sack of hammers, here's how Alberta operates as told to me by the great Peter Lougheed.
Pay attention now.
With the exception of a some freehold mineral rights that precede the creation of the province and the Natural Resources Transfer Act, the Crown in Right of Alberta (that us folks) owns the mineral rights in the oil sands.
Now we could develop them ourselves (useta do it when the Alberta Energy Company was still going) and take the risk.
Or we could contract private sector outfits to do it and take back a commission. Except we call it a royalty.
The mechanism by which we grant the concession to the energy company is called a "lease" to which the company performs certain undertakings on our behalf.
Sure they are given a certain level of security for investing the money.
But at the end of the day WE!!! own the resource - not Imperial or Suncor or CNRL or those mouth breathers from CAPP.
And thus we can change the deal if we damn well please.
Just like Lougheed did when he jacked royalty rates in 1974. And just like Stelmach is doing with the Lower Athabasca Landuse Plan.
Because that's how my Alberta works. Which is something those bullshippers from CAPP know all about too. They don't "own" sweet tweet, they are only the contract help.
Too bad you guys got shortchanged in high school social.

[hillbillyreefer]

For you younger fellows who are unfortunate victims of the "new" Alberta Education social studies and can't be blamed for being dumber than a sack of hammers, here's how Alberta operates as told to me by the great Peter Lougheed.
Pay attention now.
With the exception of a some freehold mineral rights that precede the creation of the province and the Natural Resources Transfer Act, the Crown in Right of Alberta (that us folks) owns the mineral rights in the oil sands.
Now we could develop them ourselves (useta do it when the Alberta Energy Company was still going) and take the risk.
Or we could contract private sector outfits to do it and take back a commission. Except we call it a royalty.
The mechanism by which we grant the concession to the energy company is called a "lease" to which the company performs certain undertakings on our behalf.
Sure they are given a certain level of security for investing the money.
But at the end of the day WE!!! own the resource - not Imperial or Suncor or CNRL or those mouth breathers from CAPP.
And thus we can change the deal if we damn well please.
Just like Lougheed did when he jacked royalty rates in 1974. And just like Stelmach is doing with the Lower Athabasca Landuse Plan.
Because that's how my Alberta works. Which is something those bullshippers from CAPP know all about too. They don't "own" sweet tweet, they are only the contract help.
Too bad you guys got shortchanged in high school social.

And the jobs of at least half the people on this board are dependent on energy activity. If they are all unemployed your old folks home will be underfunded and you'll have to wipe your own butt. Then your socialist utopia will have imploded kind of the same way they do everywhere else. You should have paid less attention to socialism, and more to geography.

[roadkill]

From what I can see, it doesn't look like enough of the province would be locked away to affect anyone's income here any time soon. At least, not unless Oilsands get used up *way* faster than I'd thought.

Conversely, everyone on this board is living at a time when access fo quality hunting land is disappearing. Here, I've seen it happen to the hunters in my family, and since I started last year, we've already lost one of the areas my FIL used to hunt regularly. From what I read, I'm not alone in North American on this.

But honestly, this issue reads to me like a least-effort attempt by the AB government to keep Alberta oil on the market in Europe, since the EU's new fuel labelling law, once its in place, will likely shut AB oil out due to its carbon footprint. I could see getting shut out of markets affecting more jobs than a nature preserve.

[hillbillyreefer]

[QUOTE=roadkill;897178]From what I can see, it doesn't look like enough of the province would be locked away to affect anyone's income here any time soon. At least, not unless Oilsands get used up *way* faster than I'd thought.

Conversely, everyone on this board is living at a time when access fo quality hunting land is disappearing. Here, I've seen it happen to the hunters in my family, and since I started last year, we've already lost one of the areas my FIL used to hunt regularly. From what I read, I'm not alone in North American on this.

But honestly, this issue reads to me like a least-effort attempt by the AB government to keep Alberta oil on the market in Europe, since the EU's new fuel labelling law, once its in place, will likely shut AB oil out due to its carbon footprint. I could see getting shut out of markets affecting more jobs than a nature preserve.[

Well we could just send it to Asia. They'll take our oil and good ole Quebec will still get her cut. Too bad about that hydro project eh, probably going to destroy more habitat permanently than our extracted and then reclaimed oil sands. Worry about your own environmental destruction and we will worry about ours.

[209x50]

Well in all fairness we did teach them that the province was for sale, why should we be surprised if they are upset?

[Sundancefisher]

For you younger fellows who are unfortunate victims of the "new" Alberta Education social studies and can't be blamed for being dumber than a sack of hammers, here's how Alberta operates as told to me by the great Peter Lougheed.
Pay attention now.
With the exception of a some freehold mineral rights that precede the creation of the province and the Natural Resources Transfer Act, the Crown in Right of Alberta (that us folks) owns the mineral rights in the oil sands.
Now we could develop them ourselves (useta do it when the Alberta Energy Company was still going) and take the risk.
Or we could contract private sector outfits to do it and take back a commission. Except we call it a royalty.
The mechanism by which we grant the concession to the energy company is called a "lease" to which the company performs certain undertakings on our behalf.
Sure they are given a certain level of security for investing the money.
But at the end of the day WE!!! own the resource - not Imperial or Suncor or CNRL or those mouth breathers from CAPP.
And thus we can change the deal if we damn well please.
Just like Lougheed did when he jacked royalty rates in 1974. And just like Stelmach is doing with the Lower Athabasca Landuse Plan.
Because that's how my Alberta works. Which is something those bullshippers from CAPP know all about too. They don't "own" sweet tweet, they are only the contract help.
Too bad you guys got shortchanged in high school social.

Maybe if you were not so arrogant in your prose I would take a different response of my own...

You my fine friend seems to be so out of touch with common sense it is amazing you have an audience.

I hate any two faced, illegal and immoral attempts to justify reneging on an agreement by any individual, company or government. I would absolutely love it if the person that sold you your house came to you today and said our deal from 20 years ago is no longer valid and so here is your $100,000 bucks back. Regardless of the fact it is now worth $500,000. In your own opinion...you should be able to break an agreement. The Canadian Government lets you stay here because you are granted citizenship. Please I hope someone reading takes yours away and ships you to Venezuela or better yet...Russia. When they take your rights away...they also throw you in jail for extra protection against whining.:thinking-006:

If you or a company or a government signs an agreement in good faith then that agreement should honoured. Period...end of discussion. Otherwise the trust factor goes to zero. Without trust...it is very hard to operate as a society or an economy. Investment goes to ZERO. NO amount of communist written bullshipping, mouthbreathing sack of rusty hammers that does not understand that a deal is a deal is an odiot. IMHO. :angry3:

You are not advocating any security or protection for anyone signing a "deal" or "contract" or "agreement" with the government. You only seemingly try to hide behind that statement. You can advocate breaking contracts till the Sun comes home because of your obvious left leanings...but in the end whether you are ranting about privately built lakes or not getting enough "fair share" of royalties or demanding the government breaks every contract they signed with anyone... in the end the first person to write in their whiny self serving nature about getting ripped off in a deal because an agreement was not honoured will be you!

Totally unbelievable the shear lack of values shown by someone. Once a long time ago a handshake was all that was needed between gentlemen. Now while still present it is a lost art. So now we rely on agreement to protect the deal and the understanding there of... NOW we have people advocating breaking deals...until it harms them personally.

Unfreaking believable.

Yes...another person hit a soft spot.

Cheers

Sun

[Neil Waugh]

Now heareth what King Peter sayeth:
(This is important stuff Sundancefisher so pay attention. You never know when it may show up when you get hauled before the Committee for Un-Albertan Activities)

"I think you always have to keep in mind that we’re the owner of the resource, the people, and we should always be in a position where we could change the royalty rates. It would be like our sticking with the Social Credit 16 per cent rate when we came to office back in the early 70s. We didn’t; we changed the law and we faced right up to it in the legislature."

Ya get it.
"The owner of the resource."
So we get to change the deal, within reason, if it's in our interest.
That's not some wonkie doodle Edmonton lefty like me blowing it out my ear, it's the Saintly Peter Lougheed, the great icon of Cowtown.
"Will ye no come back again" Pete.
Saying the same thing. Yes we can change the rules because at the end of the day we "own" the resource and the CAPP blowhards don't. They're basically just the hired help.

Now let me get back to my Googling, I'm pretty sure Lougheed had some enlightening views on private trout lakes too.

[Redfrog]

Maybe if you were not so arrogant in your prose I would take a different response of my own...

You my fine friend seems to be so out of touch with common sense it is amazing you have an audience.

I hate any two faced, illegal and immoral attempts to justify reneging on an agreement by any individual, company or government. I would absolutely love it if the person that sold you your house came to you today and said our deal from 20 years ago is no longer valid and so here is your $100,000 bucks back. Regardless of the fact it is now worth $500,000. In your own opinion...you should be able to break an agreement. The Canadian Government lets you stay here because you are granted citizenship. Please I hope someone reading takes yours away and ships you to Venezuela or better yet...Russia. When they take your rights away...they also throw you in jail for extra protection against whining.:thinking-006:

If you or a company or a government signs an agreement in good faith then that agreement should honoured. Period...end of discussion. Otherwise the trust factor goes to zero. Without trust...it is very hard to operate as a society or an economy. Investment goes to ZERO. NO amount of communist written bullshipping, mouthbreathing sack of rusty hammers that does not understand that a deal is a deal is an odiot. IMHO. :angry3:

You are not advocating any security or protection for anyone signing a "deal" or "contract" or "agreement" with the government. You only seemingly try to hide behind that statement. You can advocate breaking contracts till the Sun comes home because of your obvious left leanings...but in the end whether you are ranting about privately built lakes or not getting enough "fair share" of royalties or demanding the government breaks every contract they signed with anyone... in the end the first person to write in their whiny self serving nature about getting ripped off in a deal because an agreement was not honoured will be you!

Totally unbelievable the shear lack of values shown by someone. Once a long time ago a handshake was all that was needed between gentlemen. Now while still present it is a lost art. So now we rely on agreement to protect the deal and the understanding there of... NOW we have people advocating breaking deals...until it harms them personally.

Unfreaking believable.

Yes...another person hit a soft spot.

Cheers

Sun


Some guys get it..............and some never will

[Sundancefisher]

Now heareth what King Peter sayeth:
(This is important stuff Sundancefisher so pay attention. You never know when it may show up when you get hauled before the Committee for Un-Albertan Activities)

"I think you always have to keep in mind that we’re the owner of the resource, the people, and we should always be in a position where we could change the royalty rates. It would be like our sticking with the Social Credit 16 per cent rate when we came to office back in the early 70s. We didn’t; we changed the law and we faced right up to it in the legislature."

Ya get it.
"The owner of the resource."
So we get to change the deal, within reason, if it's in our interest.
That's not some wonkie doodle Edmonton lefty like me blowing it out my ear, it's the Saintly Peter Lougheed, the great icon of Cowtown.
"Will ye no come back again" Pete.
Saying the same thing. Yes we can change the rules because at the end of the day we "own" the resource and the CAPP blowhards don't. They're basically just the hired help.

Now let me get back to my Googling, I'm pretty sure Lougheed had some enlightening views on private trout lakes too.

LOL...you just don't get it. If your credibility is shot...so is your ability to do good business. IF you change the rules mid stride...you might as well just walk off a cliff. You may be willing to do business like that...but normal people in the world just walk away.

You obviously feel that Albertans are giving something away. You fail to understand one iota of a competitive market economy. While you are Googling...make sure you educate yourself on something that the NDP is not feeding the naive.

What was that system called back in the stone ages...when a landlord rules you and your family like a slave...not rights, no agreements, no contracts. I would hate to be a tenant in your rental home. Any day you can come over and beat the family, take anything you want...extort extra money and then when totally beaten...kick me out of the house. You are right...you own it...but under law you better have the contractual right. If you don't legislating it or retroactively changing it is criminal. Your inability to see it shows a hidden anger at others.

Cheers

Sun

[hillbillyreefer]

Lougheed? You mean the former premier who appointed that judge, what's his name? Reilly, you know the one who thinks sexual assault is OK. The same guy who is running as a star candidate for your beloved liberals in Alberta.

The same Lougheed who signed off on NEP, allowing the pillaging of Alberta's wealth.

Are you sure you are an Albertan, Mr. Waugh?

[rugatika]

I think Sundance nailed it pretty well on the head. Neil...the point you are missing is that business likes a stable government and stable rules. It's not even the fact that the amount of oil lost is small percentage...it's that it shows businesses that they can't trust the Alberta government to stand by their word. Stelmach is acting like some tinhorn dictator. As I understand it, the oilsands project into Saskatchewan. If I were a business owner I'd damn well rather be doing business with someone intelligent and honest like Brad Wall, than some crazy moron like Stelmach who is clutching at straws thinking he can save his own behind in the next election.

Oh, and coming on here accusing anyone with a differing opinion than yours of not paying attention in social studies...well that just makes you look like you've forgotten anything you've ever learned, or that you just maybe had bad teachers.

Wasn't Lougheed a big bleeding heart liberal socialist?

Incidentally, heard Danielle Smith on Rutherford the other day speaking on this. She spelled it out pretty clearly. Maybe she'd sit down with you and help touch up your education Neil. Bring on the Wildrose!!

[blackpheasant]

Lougheed was no match for Trudeau and his gang, they cut off his *alls and handed them to him, Stelmach and his gang are just plain dumb, time to hit the refresh button on these goofs...

[Cattle Dog]

A CONTRACT IS A CONTRACT.

Socialist, bleed-hearts, liberals, theives, and other deadbeats,
should not be allowed to come back later and change a previous deal.

Agree with you Pheasant: Lougheed thought he was the blue-eyed arab until canada's worst prime minister Trudeau came and stole more money for Quebec and Ontario,
(called it the National Energy Policy).

[Neil Waugh]

For you younger guys who couldn't find your ass with both hands back in the early 70s, here's what went down.
By the time Lougheed got in the big Devonian reefs had all pretty well been drilled out. Same goes for the Cardium fairway and Swan Hills. Thrown in the Virginia Hills and Slave Lake. The Peace River Arch pinnacle reef play was about to kick off. Before Kaybob and Elmworth when everyone in the patch switched over to gas.
That means the oil companies had already pumped mega millions into land auctions, lease clearing, drilling, gathering systems, pipelines, water floods etc.
Unlike Stelmach's deal where other than a few overflights and maybe a little seismic, zero has been spent outside of the lease price for all that land that's allegedly been "confiscated." Cuz the parks are on the outside fringes (check out the map).
So along comes King Peter and says instead of 16% off right of the top the "owners" of the resource are now gonna take for the sake of argument 32%.
Sure the CAPP guys of the day squawked. It's their job.
Then you know what Lougheed did with all that extra royalty loot?
He built up one of the biggest Jesus governments mankind has ever seen.
Swimming pools galore, pavement to nowhere, hockey arenas in places where there aren't even gas stations, a national park that out park's Banff.
And a huge bureaucracy to keep it ticking and keep the missus working. Plus no consumption tax.
And when he still couldn't figure out what to do with it he stashed it away in the Heritage Fund which now pays out at about a bill a year to keep the government running.
All these oil companies had already laid out the investment and Lougheed said we're doubling the ante. And if you don't like it take a flying F at a rolling dough-nut because we own it.
Because there were political and social reasons to do it.
Just like Stelmach is doing now.
And you know what, despite throwing out a little red meat to the dogs once in a while, Danielle ain't gonna change a thing.
Stelmach has to show that he's not letting the oil sands chew up all of northeastern Alberta by creating parks.
Just like Lougheed needed the extra royalty to build a modern, interventionist society that the baby boomers were demanding.
And the baby boomer babies been living off the fat of the land ever since.
Adam Smith don't live here. Never did and never will.
There's another lesson on how the real Alberta works.

[Okotokian]

I absolutely think there needs to be some environemntal protection up there. That said, wondering if a better way to approach it could be found... let the current leases stand. My understanding is that if they aren't producing in 5 years they revert back. So if companies have real plans and have made investments to produce, let them. Stick to the deal. But perhaps put a moratorium on granting any new leases in the area, keep those areas for conservation purposes, as well as any expired leases as they come back.

I think the companies should have a right to develop the holdings they have paid for (in the most ecologically responsible way possible). They don't have any right to expect new lands or resources to be made available to them. That's our choice as owners.

[freeones]

It scares me that someone who is supposedly part of the "voice of Aberta's outdoorsmen" is so out of touch with reality and the law.

On top of that, it's one thing to disagree and have a different point of view, but it only reflects badly on you Mr. Waugh when it's done so arrogantly and in a such a childish manner. Not exactly the way I'd expect someone that hopes to maintain a level of respect as a journalist to act. Unless of course you're trying to out Ann Coulter Ann Coulter, and then you're doing a bang up job...

Great responses Sundancefisher et al.

[blackpheasant]

For you younger guys who couldn't find your ass with both hands back in the early 70s, here's what went down.
By the time Lougheed got in the big Devonian reefs had all pretty well been drilled out. Same goes for the Cardium fairway and Swan Hills. Thrown in the Virginia Hills and Slave Lake. The Peace River Arch pinnacle reef play was about to kick off. Before Kaybob and Elmworth when everyone in the patch switched over to gas.
That means the oil companies had already pumped mega millions into land auctions, lease clearing, drilling, gathering systems, pipelines, water floods etc.
Unlike Stelmach's deal where other than a few overflights and maybe a little seismic, zero has been spent outside of the lease price for all that land that's allegedly been "confiscated." Cuz the parks are on the outside fringes (check out the map).
So along comes King Peter and says instead of 16% off right of the top the "owners" of the resource are now gonna take for the sake of argument 32%.
Sure the CAPP guys of the day squawked. It's their job.
Then you know what Lougheed did with all that extra royalty loot?
He built up one of the biggest Jesus governments mankind has ever seen.
Swimming pools galore, pavement to nowhere, hockey arenas in places where there aren't even gas stations, a national park that out park's Banff.
And a huge bureaucracy to keep it ticking and keep the missus working. Plus no consumption tax.
And when he still couldn't figure out what to do with it he stashed it away in the Heritage Fund which now pays out at about a bill a year to keep the government running.
All these oil companies had already laid out the investment and Lougheed said we're doubling the ante. And if you don't like it take a flying F at a rolling dough-nut because we own it.
Because there were political and social reasons to do it.
Just like Stelmach is doing now.
And you know what, despite throwing out a little red meat to the dogs once in a while, Danielle ain't gonna change a thing.
Stelmach has to show that he's not letting the oil sands chew up all of northeastern Alberta by creating parks.
Just like Lougheed needed the extra royalty to build a modern, interventionist society that the baby boomers were demanding.
And the baby boomer babies been living off the fat of the land ever since.
Adam Smith don't live here. Never did and never will.
There's another lesson on how the real Alberta works.

Thanks for the History lesson Professor..LOL People can spin the past anyway they want who cares....The Great Province of Alberta deserves better leadership, you don't have a clue as to how the "Wildrose" are going to Govern, the cash ain't flowing into the PC's coffers no more...The Wildrose will be flush and ready for an election, I'd be real suprised If they don't win...

[Sundancefisher]

So I thought best to do a little quick research. In checking with my contacts I am hearing that there is lots of push from outside sources like the Feds to impose rules on Alberta.

The plan is to intercept those thoughts by looking inward in advance and looking to select lands that makes sense for both conservation reasons but also taking in consideration the signed agreements and maintaining sound business practices.

There is a map around somewhere and some comments that contrary to what Neil is saying...CAPP may of commented that some compromise was needed and so far the compromise is not that harsh for oil companies.

So rather than jump the gun to much on this... let's try and actually collect a bit more information so that we are not going blowing hot wind about something having a minor impact on industry while helping out on the conservation side.

While this initially sounded like a huge forced land grab...it may be far from that...and compromise and cooperation does have to occur from time to time...

This kinda sounded like the stupidity of the "fair share" debacle that while guys like Neil still feel made sense...it destroyed Alberta's ability to be seen as a fair partner versus a socialist Venesualan.

Cheers

Sun

[rugatika]

So you're saying Lougheed is the commie that is responsible for the huge bureaucratic leviathan that is Alberta. The very Leviathan that despite huge royalty incomes and an incredibly large industrial base based on resource extraction can barely (if at all) create a surplus. Gotcha. Thanks. Bring on the Wildrose.

[roadkill]

Sorry, did you read any further into what I said than you needed to in order to make an ar5e out of yourself? Was anything I said actually wrong? I was just looking at what the BBC's been saying about a certain impending EU legislation, and the timing of what amounts to a pretty light gesture at conservationism from the AB government, and said what it looks like to me.

Yadda yadda hydro, yadda yadda oilsands. I've done this dance with AO-ers who say it better; you're just being boring.


[QUOTE=roadkill;897178]From what I can see, it doesn't look like enough of the province would be locked away to affect anyone's income here any time soon. At least, not unless Oilsands get used up *way* faster than I'd thought.

Conversely, everyone on this board is living at a time when access fo quality hunting land is disappearing. Here, I've seen it happen to the hunters in my family, and since I started last year, we've already lost one of the areas my FIL used to hunt regularly. From what I read, I'm not alone in North American on this.

But honestly, this issue reads to me like a least-effort attempt by the AB government to keep Alberta oil on the market in Europe, since the EU's new fuel labelling law, once its in place, will likely shut AB oil out due to its carbon footprint. I could see getting shut out of markets affecting more jobs than a nature preserve.[

Well we could just send it to Asia. They'll take our oil and good ole Quebec will still get her cut. Too bad about that hydro project eh, probably going to destroy more habitat permanently than our extracted and then reclaimed oil sands. Worry about your own environmental destruction and we will worry about ours.

[eastcoast]

LOL...you just don't get it. If your credibility is shot...so is your ability to do good business. IF you change the rules mid stride...you might as well just walk off a cliff. You may be willing to do business like that...but normal people in the world just walk away.

You obviously feel that Albertans are giving something away. You fail to understand one iota of a competitive market economy. While you are Googling...make sure you educate yourself on something that the NDP is not feeding the naive.

What was that system called back in the stone ages...when a landlord rules you and your family like a slave...not rights, no agreements, no contracts. I would hate to be a tenant in your rental home. Any day you can come over and beat the family, take anything you want...extort extra money and then when totally beaten...kick me out of the house. You are right...you own it...but under law you better have the contractual right. If you don't legislating it or retroactively changing it is criminal. Your inability to see it shows a hidden anger at others.Cheers

Sun

I don't know a whole lot about this subject so I would rather stay out of the details as I learn more about it, but this paragraph struck me as kinda odd and a little extreme aswell, by your logic if you owned a home that was an investment property you would never increase the rent on the tenant? not to offset higher mortgages you may have against the place, not to offset higher property taxes, not to offset more money in your pocket because you own it and can charge any rate you want because this is an open market and it's your risk? kinda strikes me as odd but I hope if I ever rent again I get you as my landloard I will sign a 10 year deal right away with no rent increases ever.

[Sundancefisher]

I don't know a whole lot about this subject so I would rather stay out of the details as I learn more about it, but this paragraph struck me as kinda odd and a little extreme aswell, by your logic if you owned a home that was an investment property you would never increase the rent on the tenant? not to offset higher mortgages you may have against the place, not to offset higher property taxes, not to offset more money in your pocket because you own it and can charge any rate you want because this is an open market and it's your risk? kinda strikes me as odd but I hope if I ever rent again I get you as my landloard I will sign a 10 year deal right away with no rent increases ever.

Sorry...you missed the point.

The whole point is that back then...there were no agreements...you signed on to a lord and worked the land. You owned nothing...not even the food you grew. The lord allocated what he wanted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom You had no legal recourse if he wanted to turf you and your family.

Now we have laws and contracts and a legal system. Yes...if I wanted to sign you up for a 10 year lease...if we both agree...then it is a done deal. Under Neil's position however...since I own the house...even with a new 10 year lease I can kick your whole family out on the street in the dead of night on the coldest day of the year cause I OWN the house. Seems it is because agreements are meaningless to him.

That is all.

Cheers

Sun

[hillbillyreefer]

Sorry, did you read any further into what I said than you needed to in order to make an ar5e out of yourself? Was anything I said actually wrong? I was just looking at what the BBC's been saying about a certain impending EU legislation, and the timing of what amounts to a pretty light gesture at conservationism from the AB government, and said what it looks like to me.

Yadda yadda hydro, yadda yadda oilsands. I've done this dance with AO-ers who say it better; you're just being boring.


[QUOTE=hillbillyreefer;897213]

In case you don't know oil is an easily transported commodity, it doesn't matter where we sell it, a scarce resource is easy to sell. A long story short, who cares what the BBC, or EU have to say, there are plenty of other markets to sell our product into.

[bessiedog]

If I'm reading this right... We're pretty close to labelling Lougheed a commie!:party0051:

And in this wildlife episode.... the Pack turns on each other and start eating one of their own... KrikeY!!

... Contract law is pretty important Sundance, but almost every major oil related corporation knows that these kinds of adjustments are 'the lay of the land', just as any Talisman, Connocco, Shell... bla bla bla... and they deal with the likes of Gaddaffi, Saddam, uncle Hugo... and the list goes on.

Rule of law is a nice idea....... so is civilization.... lemme know if you find either.


The resource is too valuable, Alberta's slice is pathetic compared to most other countries. I think its still pretty pathetic in comparison even after the last royalty hike... but I better check.

The game changes, oil companies will roll with it. You know this.


big meanie!

[Neil Waugh]

There appear to be two Alberta's. Something I wasn't aware of but it has suddenly become crystal clear and in your face.
One is a parallel universe/negative ion place which exists mainly on this forum.
Then there is the real one.
One believes that the goofy old Alberta PCs are being abandoned by the oil patch.
The other isn't quite so sure.
So let's let the Chief Electoral Officer be the judge. Hey, that's what we pay him the big bucks for.
Quickly the scene shifts to the just-released party disclosures.
First the PCs:

Devon - $10,000
CNRL - $9,230
Enbridge - $11,000
Encana - $14,500
Husky - $9,500
Imperial - $10,250
PCL - $9,250
Penn West - $15,000
Trans-Canada - $11,600

Now Wildrose:

Suncor - $2,800
Ensign - $5,700
Connacher - $9,200
Cenovus - $7,500
And the best of the bunch Encana - $20,000.

Not exactly the stampede to Danielle that some have claimed.
And I would be remiss not to mention that my buddy Ernie Isley (former PC cabinet minister turned Wildrose renegade) bucked up an amazing $500 for the new party he loves so well.
Ernie Isley, the last of the big spenders.

[Sundancefisher]

The resource is too valuable, Alberta's slice is pathetic compared to most other countries. I think its still pretty pathetic in comparison even after the last royalty hike... but I better check.

That is the generally accepted line of the Liberals and NDP and some certain social conservative farmer...but the facts show differently.

In the general premise of the royalty review...they totally dismissed bonus payments stating all jurisdictions pay that so it evens out...thereafter only the royalty matters.

Ergo...the biggest hogwash process in Alberta history.

Our land sale process in Alberta is highly competitive. Companies want to make a 15% rate of return on investment...that means factoring all the wells drilled...dry holes...break evens and profitable ones...factoring in staff costs...operating costs, taxes etc...

So now you have thousands of companies competing in a market place for the same commodity that has a land bottleneck. Companies pay millions and millions for the right for a chance to find something. That speculation drives prices up and stops companies for taking excessive profits from "Albertans". In fact we get most of the money up front.

In other jurisdictions they have bonus payments... In Alberta...you pay the government millions for the right to drill...then you have to pay again for the drilling. In other places it is different...as the bonus is really a commitment to activity...in which your drilling gets deducted from that commitment.

Now people always scream about billion dollar profits...but the company size is multi billions...so of course in an order of magnitude they make big profits. Still mostly comparable in relation to small companies...just people focus on the number and not the rate of return on capital employed.

I have looked at this in detail...Albertan's are definitely NOT ripped off. The oil patch also totally drives the economy. Oil companies pay taxes and salaries and operations. Employees pay taxes and spend income on houses, cars, vacations, food etc. Operations hires contractors and companies that also pay staff and taxes...and buy equipment. Hotels and restaurants in rural Alberta survive on the business. The spin off taxes are far in excess of the royalties and that is ignored by Liberals and NDP'rs.

IMHO

[Sundancefisher]

There appear to be two Alberta's. Something I wasn't aware of but it has suddenly become crystal clear and in your face.
One is a parallel universe/negative ion place which exists mainly on this forum.
Then there is the real one.
One believes that the goofy old Alberta PCs are being abandoned by the oil patch.
The other isn't quite so sure.
So let's let the Chief Electoral Officer be the judge. Hey, that's what we pay him the big bucks for.
Quickly the scene shifts to the just-released party disclosures.
First the PCs:

Devon - $10,000
CNRL - $9,230
Enbridge - $11,000
Encana - $14,500
Husky - $9,500
Imperial - $10,250
PCL - $9,250
Penn West - $15,000
Trans-Canada - $11,600

Now Wildrose:

Suncor - $2,800
Ensign - $5,700
Connacher - $9,200
Cenovus - $7,500
And the best of the bunch Encana - $20,000.

Not exactly the stampede to Danielle that some have claimed.
And I would be remiss not to mention that my buddy Ernie Isley (former PC cabinet minister turned Wildrose renegade) bucked up an amazing $500 for the new party he loves so well.
Ernie Isley, the last of the big spenders.

How much went to the Liberals and NDP?

[rugatika]

There appear to be two Alberta's. Something I wasn't aware of but it has suddenly become crystal clear and in your face.
One is a parallel universe/negative ion place which exists mainly on this forum.
Then there is the real one.
One believes that the goofy old Alberta PCs are being abandoned by the oil patch.
The other isn't quite so sure.
So let's let the Chief Electoral Officer be the judge. Hey, that's what we pay him the big bucks for.
Quickly the scene shifts to the just-released party disclosures.
First the PCs:

Devon - $10,000
CNRL - $9,230
Enbridge - $11,000
Encana - $14,500
Husky - $9,500
Imperial - $10,250
PCL - $9,250
Penn West - $15,000
Trans-Canada - $11,600

Now Wildrose:

Suncor - $2,800
Ensign - $5,700
Connacher - $9,200
Cenovus - $7,500
And the best of the bunch Encana - $20,000.

Not exactly the stampede to Danielle that some have claimed.
And I would be remiss not to mention that my buddy Ernie Isley (former PC cabinet minister turned Wildrose renegade) bucked up an amazing $500 for the new party he loves so well.
Ernie Isley, the last of the big spenders.

Wow. Pretty good for a party that has only been around for 3 years and has yet to elect a member. Compared to a party that has been in power for what 40 years? This upstart party, WITHOUT a single elected member has raised half the funding from oil companies that the entrenched PC's have.

It may not be a stampede, but I'd say the corral gates are open and the shots have been fired.

Everytime I hear Stelmach speak...I'm embarassed for our province. Everytime I hear Danielle speak, I'm impressed. She would be the best thing to happen to this province since Leduc #1.

[blackpheasant]

There appear to be two Alberta's. Something I wasn't aware of but it has suddenly become crystal clear and in your face.
One is a parallel universe/negative ion place which exists mainly on this forum.
Then there is the real one.
One believes that the goofy old Alberta PCs are being abandoned by the oil patch.
The other isn't quite so sure.
So let's let the Chief Electoral Officer be the judge. Hey, that's what we pay him the big bucks for.
Quickly the scene shifts to the just-released party disclosures.
First the PCs:

Devon - $10,000
CNRL - $9,230
Enbridge - $11,000
Encana - $14,500
Husky - $9,500
Imperial - $10,250
PCL - $9,250
Penn West - $15,000
Trans-Canada - $11,600

Now Wildrose:

Suncor - $2,800
Ensign - $5,700
Connacher - $9,200
Cenovus - $7,500
And the best of the bunch Encana - $20,000.

Not exactly the stampede to Danielle that some have claimed.
And I would be remiss not to mention that my buddy Ernie Isley (former PC cabinet minister turned Wildrose renegade) bucked up an amazing $500 for the new party he loves so well.
Ernie Isley, the last of the big spenders.

Interesting, only 13 Oil related co's listed here I wonder where the other 2500 or so Oil and Oilfield related Corps will put there $$$$, I know it's impossible to list personel contribution's here but I would imagine there's a wee bit of green going over to our friends at Wildrose headquaters right about now...:)

[Sundancefisher]

Everytime I hear Danielle speak, I'm impressed. She would be the best thing to happen to this province since Leduc #1.

I have chatted personally with Danielle at a function, asked questions at a talk...and quite frankly I am not impressed. My problem is not what she said per se but rather the quality of the response which to date has not shown she understands the issues. I must say she has great handlers and has some very good canned responses...but unfortunately up until then she says the correct retoric but nothing more. She has been the master of not answering a question.

I have not decided how I would vote between the PC's and the Wildose...I am in fact on the fence. I am for now just sitting back and watching how they act. The Conservative Leadership race is the next critical step in the political process. If we can get someone more like Dinning that understands the issues and has the experience and is a fiscal Conservative...then we can start to turn around the floundering ship. If another Stelmach or worse gets in...this sailor is jumping ship.

Hopefully we can all engage in the future on what the Premier wannabees have offer.

Currently I see the Wildrose being right of center...Conservatives being center, Liberals being a ways left of center...and the NDP...way off in the distance left of center. The Conservatives need to move back to the right somewhat...although the social dynamic in Alberta (many people have immigrated to Alberta for jobs over the past 5 years) may not accept a party too far right of center.

Cheers

Sun

P.S. Our saving grace is the Liberals are run by a bunch of mindless quacks that can't take advantage of a $100 bill...even if it was just lying on the road in front of them.