Power Line Over the Bow River

[ConcernedCitizen]

As many of you probably know, the fishing around the Bow - Highwood confluence is rather good, however that beautiful area is in danger of being destroyed due to a proposed Altalink transmission line over the the Bow river. This line is called the North Foothills Transmission Project. The proposed line would go down into the valley on both sides of the Bow river just east of the confluence and as such it would be only 45 to 60 meters (it may hang as low as 30 meters) over the water of the Bow river. What is most annoying is that the first round of consultations were planned for a time when the area farmers would be in their fields and too busy to think about their land being stolen, but with the wet fields and the late start (it could get later yet) the local landowners have had a chance to inquire into this theft.

Ostensibly this transmission line is being built to bring "clean" and "green" wind energy to Calgary, but there are quite a few rumors about a gas fired power plant that is to be built close to High River, maybe Altalink will build another power line for it. Whichever may be the case, what is rather interesting is that there are no proposals to upgrade any of the existing power lines, or even to purchase the land (or to recompense the owners for the land value that would be lost) that will be destroyed by this line.

Luckily the government no longer requires any sort of Environmental Impact Assessment for major transmission projects so that we can all be sure that the area in question will be "protected" from destruction, I wonder what would happen if one of the live lines were to break (possibly due to birdstrikes during the fall migration) and fall into the Bow river. If you are at all interested in further information about this power line may I divert your attention to the following website:

http://albertaelectricityfuture.com/alberta/?page_id=5001

This all ties into the recent passage of Bills 19, 36 and 50, which allow land to be stolen without compensation. What is most interesting is that Altalink is a for-profit company; they earn money by building power lines, but it does not matter if electricity is actually sent through the line, for you as an Albertan consumer will still be paying for the construction and the profit margin that goes to Altalink. In this particular case the farmers who will be affected will merely get one thousand dollars per tower, but how much will it cost them to seed around each and every tower? How much extra pesticide must they use to eradicate the weeds that will use each tower as a refuge and spawning point? Hell, how will the farmers even spray the base of every tower in an efficient manner?

If any of you fine folks are at all interested in preserving the natural splendors of the area in question please raise your concerns with both Altalink and the provincial government, however please be aware of the fact that Altalink (due to the "democratic" considerations of the provincial Conservatives) must only consider the concerns of those who live within a half-mile of the line, not those whose view, lifestyle, or land value would be severly affacted.

[Grizzly Adams]

More people, more Power. Would you rather have Nuclear, or just run the lights half the time?

http://en.rian.ru/video/20101123/161465038.html

Grizz

[bobalong]

More people, more Power. Would you rather have Nuclear, or just run the lights half the time?

Grizz

Typical of so many comments on here........as long as it does not effect my area, it's ok, regardless of environmental impact or anything else.

[Grizzly Adams]

Typical of so many comments on here........as long as it does not effect my area, it's ok, regardless of environmental impact or anything else.

Doesn't matter what we do, it's going to affect somebody. Only option we don't have, if we want to maintain our way of life, is do nothing. Ironic that his particular location is surrounded by super energy consuming mansions, on small acreages.

Grizz

[ConcernedCitizen]

Well why doesn't Altalink even bother to consider upgrading one of there existing power lines? There is an existing line a few miles east of the confluence and a few lines directly south of Calgary, but Altalink only considers the number of people who would potentially live within a half-mile of the line.

Why will they not bother to compensate those whose land (and especially it's value) will be affected? Altalink is a private for-profit company, but it will not even consider some sort of profit sharing scheme with those who have something at stake; all the profit goes to them, but it is the locals who must carry the burden of this developement. It is they whose land will be rendered essentially worthless; who would want to live beside a major power line? A lot of guys have been holding on to their land in the hope of selling it for some acreages or subdivisions (even though this would still be a long way off), but now comes Altalink and the provincial government and instead of offering some compensation or offering to buy the land (and then rent it back) they have decided to simply steal it instead.

Lastly, how could they even think of putting the power line down into the valley bottom? Have they even thought about the affects of such a developement? Of course they haven't because when I looked into it I found that they simply made the line in question follow the center section line (the imaginary north-south line that divides a section into two half-sections), why did they not make the line follow a road allowance? When I asked some Altalink employees about this (at one of their openhouses) they said that this was the simplest way of drawing the line.

[Pudelpointer]

... what is rather interesting is that there are no proposals to upgrade any of the existing power lines, or even to purchase the land (or to recompense the owners for the land value that would be lost) that will be destroyed by this line.

... I wonder what would happen if one of the live lines were to break (possibly due to birdstrikes during the fall migration) and fall into the Bow river. ...

This all ties into the recent passage of Bills 19, 36 and 50, which allow land to be stolen without compensation. What is most interesting is that Altalink is a for-profit company; they earn money by building power lines, but it does not matter if electricity is actually sent through the line, for you as an Albertan consumer will still be paying for the construction and the profit margin that goes to Altalink. In this particular case the farmers who will be affected will merely get one thousand dollars per tower, but how much will it cost them to seed around each and every tower? How much extra pesticide must they use to eradicate the weeds that will use each tower as a refuge and spawning point? Hell, how will the farmers even spray the base of every tower in an efficient manner?

If any of you fine folks are at all interested in preserving the natural splendors of the area in question please raise your concerns with both Altalink and the provincial government, ...

A couple observations CC;

First, existing lines cannot be upgraded or rebuilt until there are alternative transmission options, or do you not mind if they shut your power off for 6 months at a time while they rebuild each tower and restring?

Second, what land is being destroyed? A tower placement is what? 10m x 10m? Is the land under the line ROW useless? Can it not still be farmed?

Third, "birdstrikes"? Come on, at least have a serious argument or concern. If a bird strike is enough to bring down a powerline, then we have some serious reliability concerns with our utility grid! Seriously. And if it DID fall in the river, so what? It may kill a few thousand fish at most in a one-time event, in a river with thousands of fish per mile. It would not pollute the river, it would not destroy habitat, it would not introduce detrimental changes in any way - just some dead fish. NOT a serious environmental concern.

Fourth, each tower placement provides the landowner with a $1000 p/yr payment you state. So which is it? Is the land being stolen, or leased? Stolen would indicate no payment shall be made at any time. This same situation occurs with pipelines, wells, mining, etc. Why would electricity transmission be any different?

As for "natural splendours" of the area, see my following comments....


Well why doesn't Altalink even bother to consider upgrading one of there existing power lines? There is an existing line a few miles east of the confluence and a few lines directly south of Calgary,...

Why will they not bother to compensate those whose land (and especially it's value) will be affected? ...

...It is they whose land will be rendered essentially worthless; who would want to live beside a major power line? A lot of guys have been holding on to their land in the hope of selling it for some acreages or subdivisions (even though this would still be a long way off), but now comes Altalink and the provincial government and instead of offering some compensation or offering to buy the land (and then rent it back) they have decided to simply steal it instead.

Does the line to the east belong to AltaLink? Frankly it does not matter. The point of building these new lines is to reinforce the existing grid, not to replace it. The old lines will not be removed or left to degenerate, they will continue to supply power to our growing population.

Again, is there a payment for affected landowners? Are you "affected" because you can see the line from 3 miles away? Do you deserve to receive compensation (at the expense of everyone else) because your viewscape includes a powerline?

And then there is the true crux of the issue, subdivisions and residential development. So which is it CC; "natural splendours" or "acreages and subdivisions"? Sorry, but to me these are exclusive options. I would rather see the Bow River valley undeveloped with 6 powerline crossings than with 60,000 people living along its currently undeveloped shores.

And on that note, why do you think we need these powerlines? Maybe to supply power to the many "acreage" developments in the area around Calgary... what do you think, is there a connection there? Do 4800 square foot homes need more power then a solar panel can provide?

And then back to stealing....

Sorry CC, but I see your post as nothing more than a NIMBY rant to protect your own self-interests.

If you care to do some research on why the lines are being built where, when, and why, it is not because AltaLink or Atco Electric or whoever thought it would be a great idea. It is because the need was identified, the areas were proposed and the dates set by government (or quasi-governmental bodies to be accurate). Yell at your MLA.

FWIW, it is because of whining landowners that Lethbridge has a 240 kV line crossing the river right along HWY 3 as you enter town. It was supposed to be about 2 km to the north, but landowners screamed, so they put the line through the north end of the Blood Reserve, and they put it right along the highway to get it there. Thanks landowners.

[weedcatcher]

I like to fish at the confluence there. If there was a big power line a ways downstream, it may harm the scenery a bit, but not a huge amount. As long as during the installation, they don't run bulldozers through the streams and muddy up the water and destroy habitat that way.

Leave the rivers pristine, and clean up the fields after the installation is over. I, for one, don't plan to quit using electricity, so I guess I'll have to live with another line across the river.

[tasco]

I say "bring it on." We are using more and more power. I am a land owner, the power line is not going through my land, but if it needed to I would not have any serious objections. It's all about progress, I wonder how much we would all scream if we had to deal with brownouts.

[bobalong]

Doesn't matter what we do, it's going to affect somebody. Only option we don't have, if we want to maintain our way of life, is do nothing. Ironic that his particular location is surrounded by super energy consuming mansions, on small acreages.

Grizz

You may not want to take everything the government tells you as gospel. Even if you are not a land owner you should be pizzed at what the govt and Altalink have done to push this through.
One of the quotes from the following article.

The $16-billion plan has no precedent or parallel on the continent, adds Bur.
In fact no other jurisdiction has proposed to build eight times its existing transmission infrastructure at taxpayers' expense with no public needs assessment.


http://thetyee.ca/News/2011/02/08/AlbertaElectricity/

[Photoplex]

A couple observations CC;<snip>

Some great points, excellently expressed.

[Pudelpointer]

Some great points, excellently expressed.

If you read the entire piece (of #### IMO) you will see this little tidbit about the author:

"(Full Disclosure: Andrew Nikiforuk is a rural landowner and member of the Livingstone Landowner's Group. As a taxpayer and long-time landowner's advocate, he is also opposing power line proposals in southern Alberta based on the absence of any public needs assessment and government legislation that attacks property rights.) "

The entire 'article' is written based on information provided by Joe Anglin and HIS lawyers. Hard to separate fact from opinion. Have any of you met Joe Anglin? I have seen this "saviour" in person and he comes across as borderline psychotic and manipulative. He has a bee in his bonnet, and he does not care who he runs over in his quest for blood.

I do agree on one thing though, there definitely should have been (or should be) a PUBLIC needs assessment on the proposed infrastructure. However, it is whacky BS like "bird strikes" causing powerlines to collapse that makes one wonder if there is any point. If the anti-powerline people can not come up with a better argument then "bird strikes" and "natural splendour" - whoops, I mean "self interest development", then I have no interest in listening to it.


ETA, Who is saying that the proposal is to build "8 times" the current capacity? Currently there is at least 4 - 240kV lines (some may be 500kV) connecting the Genesee area with points farther south. As much as a single DC line (WHICH ANGLIN STATED WAS THE ONLY REASONABLE OPTION) can increase the amount of power one line can carry (in this case 500kV), there is only one proposed for west of Edmonton and one east. How does that = an eight fold increase?!?!? Currently at least 860kV, adding 500kV - yup, 8x increase. Smoke something else cause that stuff is making you loopy!

If anyone with a background in electrical transmission can explain power capacity, etc. that would be great, cause I don't understand it well.

[billie]

To keep it simple, voltage x amperage (current) equals capacity (VA). Raising voltage reduces the required ampacity to create equal capacity. Lower amperage means smaller wire. So, it you have a maximum wire size (tower loading) that will accommodate "X" amps, raising the voltage at the same "X" amps equals increased capacity. The amperage is basically fixed, voltage is variable given the source equipment. DC is more efficient than AC because losses are reduced but there's a bunch of theory on that side.

I say X2 on developement on the Bow. The last thing I want to see is houses even within sight. It is truly a treat to float that section and only see a few farmer's summer houses. The one power line along there is barely noticable to me.

BTW PP, floated last Sunday, just a single 18" RB. The invitation is still open if you're in the neighbourhood.

[davric]

Pudelpointer,I am curious, you identify these 2 fellows as having defined interests. How about advising us what your affiliations are?

You seem to be well versed on the subject indicating perhaps a prejudiced opinion.

Just wondering.

G.G.

[Pudelpointer]

Sorry. Been away for a few days and now I am sick.

I am a resident of AB and would rather see a powerline than a housing development. I work as an Environmental consultant and have done some work with AL, however I am only stating my personal opinions.

Do I want to see powerlines all over the landscape? Do I want to pay for this? Do I think we should blindly accept what government and industry says as gospel truth?

The answer to all the above is a succint NO; however I am not so naive, self centered or hypocritical to believe that my land development plans or my viewscape is more important than the reliability of our electrical transmission system.

What is your affiliation / position based on?

[TyreeUM]

bird strikes hahaha wow

[Grizzly Adams]

Well why doesn't Altalink even bother to consider upgrading one of there existing power lines? There is an existing line a few miles east of the confluence and a few lines directly south of Calgary, but Altalink only considers the number of people who would potentially live within a half-mile of the line.

Why will they not bother to compensate those whose land (and especially it's value) will be affected? Altalink is a private for-profit company, but it will not even consider some sort of profit sharing scheme with those who have something at stake; all the profit goes to them, but it is the locals who must carry the burden of this developement. It is they whose land will be rendered essentially worthless; who would want to live beside a major power line? A lot of guys have been holding on to their land in the hope of selling it for some acreages or subdivisions (even though this would still be a long way off), but now comes Altalink and the provincial government and instead of offering some compensation or offering to buy the land (and then rent it back) they have decided to simply steal it instead.

Lastly, how could they even think of putting the power line down into the valley bottom? Have they even thought about the affects of such a developement? Of course they haven't because when I looked into it I found that they simply made the line in question follow the center section line (the imaginary north-south line that divides a section into two half-sections), why did they not make the line follow a road allowance? When I asked some Altalink employees about this (at one of their openhouses) they said that this was the simplest way of drawing the line.

Hey, I live within a few hundred feet of three major pipelines. Don't interfere with my operations and I get a VERY nice check, every year. Thank you very much. Once that powerline is in place, you probably won't even notice it, coming down the river. As for the road allowance, they are designated for future road construction. You wanna mess with that?:lol: Let's see now , with a handle of Concerned Citizen and a grand total of two posts, you didn't just show up on this Forum to troll, did you?

Grizz

[ishootbambi]

, you didn't just show up on this Forum to troll, did you?

Grizz

not so much trolling as looking for support for his plans to get rich subdividing his land. you ask me thats a far worse destruction of wildlife habitat.

[Pudelpointer]

BTW PP, floated last Sunday, just a single 18" RB. The invitation is still open if you're in the neighbourhood.

jealous. I am hoping to get your way before run off begins in ernest. Looking forward to meeting up soon.

[Kokanee9]

I googled "power line dangers". The link below seems to explain a lot of stuff that I didn't really know anything about. One of the points is that pregnant women should not go near the lines.

Can the lines have any effect on any migration or spawning of fish? If we look at things differently, perhaps these lines may have the capability of affecting us.

http://www.powerlinefacts.com/faq.htm

[Dale S]

I will bet that Concerned Citizin is'nt a fisherman or a hunter. Just someone how wants to stir the pot. A tree hugger. There are hundreds of powerlines crossing water.This sould not be on the fishing forum.

[KegRiver]

I believe the line you speak of is part of a larger system, some of which was recently built just down the road from me.

I too have concerns about this line. But not destruction of land, that didn't happen, or theft of land, that didn't happen either.

There can be only one reason for this line. To feed power from a Nuclear power plant planned for the Peace River area, to markets in the south, and possibly Alaska.

We were told the line was to bring us cheaper power, but it ties into the old system at only one point, again this point is just down the road from me.
So all the inefficiencies of the old lines still apply.

Moreover, the old lines were utilized at around 65% of capacity. We had room for years of growth without this new line. This new line has up to 24 times the capacity of the old line. Except, it really doesn't increase the capacity at all does it. After all, it will be the old line distributing the power from here to all points beyond.

Think of it this way. Hook up 500 feet of garden hose and you will find that pressure at the end will not be great. Now hook that line up to a 24 inch line. Water is still going through the small line to your spray nozzle. Is the pressure any better. If the pressure at the start of your small line is the same then it will still be low at the end. This is the situation with this new power line being hooked to the old line.

What we have here people is you and I are paying to build a power line that for a private company to earn profit from selling Nuclear power to markets outside Canada. They will own the line we build and they will take all the profit earned. We will get nothing. Not cheaper power, not greater capacity, we won't even get the line WE paid for.

Steady Eddie sold us down the river here folks.

Oh, and about bird strikes. If that bird is the size and weight of a 747 perhaps. I stood only feet from that line while the pulled it across hwy 35, with a D5 Caterpillar. Well actually they pulled all 14 or 16 wires at a time.
Still, we are talking GABLE here, not a thin speaker wire.

[Pudelpointer]

I won't argue with any of your comments Keg, except for the capacity arguement. From what I understand (which is not a lot!) we average using just over 1/2 our capacity most days, however we have come VERY close recently to not having enough (>90%). At the rate we are growing it will not be long before a very cold - or a very hot day could put us in a dangerous position.

As for exporting power, well we import it now, so why not? I have not seen anything that clearly indicates exporting power is on the agenda, but I won't say it is impossible - however, so what? We sell oil, natural gas, minerals, lumber, etc. Why not surplus electricity? I don't understand the "export" objection; paying for private development, I agree, but why shouldn't we sell electrical energy?

[KegRiver]

I don't think anyone has any objection to selling power, across border or otherwise. I know I sure don't. What I object to is being forced to pay for a business venture I have no say in and will receive no benefit from.

And I am incensed that we will most likely pay for the Nuclear plant the will make that power. There is no doubt, a Nuclear plant has been approved for somewhere in Alberta. There would be no point in THIS line without a Nuclear plant, or a Massive Hydroelectric dam. Since we have no potential for such a dam, Nuclear is the only option capable of providing enough power to justify a Power Line of this size.

I don't know what the power situation in your area is, but I know that up here we are no where near capacity, for either power generation or transmission.
That is according to Alberta Power figures.

Moreover, at the present rate of growth, we have enough capacity in generation and transmission, right now, to meet our power needs for the next 25 years.

Why are you and I paying for a power line we have no need of and will see no benefit from?

By the way. I don't have the exact figures in front of me so my figures may be off by a bit. But I know they are close enough to give you the idea.

Some of the figures I do have.

The Wesley Creek to Meikle transmission line currently runs at 144 kV, but was built to carry 240 kV of power. This is the new line I've been talking about. These figures are actually deceiving because this line has a total capacity of 500 KV but was set up to deliver 240 KV for now.

Our old lines, there were two, I was told have a capacity of 64 KV each.

Our old lines were single wire, the new one is double wire. This makes the new line capable of caring twice the amperage. To put that in prospective.

A double wire 144 KV line has four times the capacity of a single wire 64 KV line.

[Pudelpointer]

Lots of rumours out there, that is for sure, and I agree with your main objection Keg, about who is paying for this?

As for "a nuclear power plant has been approved for somewhere in AB", do you have any more info on that? I recall a big discussion a year or two ago about a proposed plant in the Peace but have not heard anything for a while. Did it get the go ahead? If so, I think the press dropped the ball on that one!

From what I understand, the only possible "surplus power generator" in the province at the moment is the co-gen plants in the McMurray area, but this is just more rumours I have heard, so I can't substantiate anything. In fact, I believe this was one of Anglin's conspiracy theories, but who knows.

If anyone truly wants to hear my opinion (my wife sure doesn't anymore!) I think we are really missing something in this province. Everyone criticizes the oil sands because of the amount of GHG emissions (mostly from co-gen power required to separate the bitumen from the sand) generated in producing the oil. Follow me for a second:

- North-east AB (NEA) is damn near an "earthquake free zone"
- NEA is darn close to NW Sask (& Uranium City)
- The CANDU reactor has one of the safest / most reliable operation records of all nuclear reactor types
- Bitumen production requires enormous amounts of steam to process the oil sands
- Nuclear reactors produce large amounts of steam! Usually it is used to turn a turbine for electrical production but why not just use the steam?
- If built far enough away from Lake Athabasca a tsunami failure is unlikely....

See what I am getting at? Anyone? Bueller?

[KegRiver]

As for "a nuclear power plant has been approved for somewhere in AB", do you have any more info on that? I recall a big discussion a year or two ago about a proposed plant in the Peace but have not heard anything for a while. Did it get the go ahead? If so, I think the press dropped the ball on that one!


The official word, what we were told, was that there are several steps to go before approval can even be considered.

However, at present, the site of that proposed Nuclear Plant is about four miles east of my brother-in-law's ranch. Bruce power started site preparation work last fall.

Couple that with this new power line that is capable of transmitting several times out present generation capacity, and draw your own conclusions.

One last thing. Were Albertans consulted before it was decided that taxpayers would fund this new power line ?
Let me answer that for you. We were only informed of that decision after construction was started.

So do you think this government would inform us if they had approved a Nuclear Plant?