Respect for landowners. You think they want to start planning for our hunting season in July, Aug? Hunting permission maybe big for us in fact it is everything . But most land owners don't want permission to be a year long issue. I secure permission early but actual dates are not set until a couple weeks before hand.

On the properties I hunt most, I have permission year round. I am in contact with those landowners periodically throughout the year. I stop in and see how things are as often as I can.

I always ask if they are still okay with me using there place, and they always are. I also always ask if they want me to call before I come out to hunt, and very rarely do I hear an answer other than "Just go ahead. Come out any time you want." I always make a point of asking these questions in late summer well before the season, so they can focus on harvest and moving cattle and other seasonally intensive activities.

In fact, I have two dogs and two cats buried in a spot overlooking a river where I do most of my bird hunting. Needless to say I am very protective of these landowners' property.

Here is a real solution for you, start reporting catching a and taking away the licenses of anyone breaking the rules. This includes hunting out of your vehicle or shooing off the hood, or road allowance. You want to **** people off this will do it, I would bet 100 times more dear are poached than are taken with a bow, I would bet that the number of deer taken completely legally ( not chased or put up with a vehicle, on property with permission, during regular hours, without bait) is less than 70% in this province.

I debated as to whether or not to bother, but any way;

CORRECTION to post #460... I meant to quote the following:



Pudel, your statements are clear and concise (as i am sure you already know) and mirror my thoughts on the matter.

you guys have gone off track here in the last couple pages. this has nothing at all to do with deer numbers, or trophy quality. this talk about mismanagement leading to poor herd numbers is real, but completely irrelevant to the proposal of an archery draw. it is looming simply because some zones are over the 15% harvest limit that is determined by license sales which show 15% of hunters to be archers.

what you ought to be arguing is how those numbers are attained....and dang it, if i could show you i would. i gotta figure something out here. we as hunters dont need to be attacking each other over this. the real problem (in my opinion of course) is how srd is doing their arithmetic.

ok....finally able to copy, so here goes.....

For 2011, there were 58,924 completed surveys for all licence types, which was 26% of all licences purchased (222,957 in total).*

In regards specifically to the “General Mule Deer licence” (the licence used during the archery only season for antlered mule deer), 4,183 people responded to the survey for this licence type. There were a total of 14,501 licences sold, meaning 29% of hunters who purchased this licence responded to the survey.

Using the survey results and the actual harvest numbers, the estimated harvest for each WMU is determined. From these numbers and the response of hunters to the questions regarding the weapon used, the archery harvest is estimated. If the survey results have a low sample size, the results are taken with a grain of salt and their accuracy is questionable. For the purpose of determining the archery harvest and allocation of antlered mule deer harvest for bow hunters, SRD only looks at the number of antlered mule deer harvested by the General Mule Deer Licence during the archery only season. Bowhunters who harvested a mule deer under the authority of a Special Licence obtained in the draw process are not counted as part of the general mule deer harvest for this analysis.


. Data is for the 2011 hunting season and is for WMUs 108, 208 and 357. Harvest is only for bow hunter kills during the archery only season and does not take into account youth bow hunter harvest (which occurred in all zones). Estimated total harvest includes bow hunter harvest from General and Youth Licences, Special Licences (the draw) and Landowner Licences.


WMU Bowhunter
Respondent
Per WMU Estimated
Bowhunters Reported Antlered
MUDE Bhtr Harvest Est Bow hunter Harvest Est Total Harvest Est % Bow Hunter Harvest
108 64 222 14 49 157 31.2
208 58 201 10 35 85 41.2
357 54 187 6 21 66 31.8


In calculating the numbers (using the stats from WMU 108 as an example), the 64 bowhunters who responded on the game harvest survey who had a general mule deer tag is divided by the total of 4,183 people who responded (all bowhunters, and rifle hunters who had the general mule deer tag). This (1.53 % or .0153) is the actual percentage of hunters with this licence who bowhunted in WMU 108. This is then multiplied by the overall number of hunters who bought a general mule deer license (.0153 x 14501) to come up with the estimated number of bowhunters who bowhunted WMU 108 (222). To estimate the bowhunter harvest, the actual reported bowhunter harvest (14) is divided by the total bowhunter respondents (64) and this (.22 or 22%) is then multiplied by the estimated number of bowhunters (222 from calculation above) to get the estimated bowhunter harvest of 49 buck mule deer. This is then divided into the overall estimated harvest (includes bow hunter harvest from General and Youth Licences, Special Licences (the draw) and Landowner Licences)(49/157)(calculated using the same type of formulas) to determine the estimated bowhunter harvest (which is limited to 15% as per current policy – bowhunters account for app 15% of the overall hunting population).




now, as i said, this is a summary of the complete report that will be in the upcoming ABA newsletter. thanks to the ABA for allowing me to present the data early here to AO. for a full report, be sure to join the ABA to keep up to date on this and other important issues concerning archery hunting in alberta. if you are a bowhunter in this province, it really is in your best interest to belong to this organization to have your voice heard.


****edit*** the numbers in the chart didnt translate in chart form, so read that part closely to decipher the info.

There's more pages on this summary dale stating proposed draw zones and more info. Not sure if you didn't see it but there's several pages on this pdf.

Edit maybe this isn't from the pdf I saw tonight.

yeah, i got it. ABA members will see the whole report.....i just needed to show everyone how the numbers are calculated. in my opinion, the real problem that stinks most here is how the percentages are calculated. ive taken some heavy math courses in college, and have an understanding of statistics....but i really disagree with how these numbers are being obtained.

its that number at the end that is pushing the archery draw issue. ive said it all along that i have no problem believing that many wmus are over the 15% limit....but i just dont see the numbers in this report being even close.

and i saw your edit....they are indeed two different documents, but both are a concern to bowhunters.

I havent had a chance to read through the whole thing. I gave it a fast scan looked at proposed zones and such. Not as bad as it was first made out to be...but still a lost opportunity for hunters.

depends where you live. take a look at the wmus where im at....there will be no local options left.....but actually i agree with those ones.

So they are assuming that 22% of the 222 guys that bowhunted in 108 actually took a deer.Just because that 22% of the guys who filled out the survey filled there tags. I guess assuming is enough these days.
Maybe I misread some of that.

no, you got it right. what nobody is taking into account is that successful hunters are more likely to report to the survey. take a look at this forum. there are tons of successful hunt threads and very few threads about the unsuccessful ones. they are also assuming that success is identical across the province with no regard for differences in hunting style on the prairies vs the forests.

i expected more to pick up on that, but maybe just all the guys upset about this havent seen the post yet.

It certainly seems like this is flawed reasoning and estimations. It makes it tough to swallow such a change.

maybe just a little.....:scared0018:

Thanks for clarifying that. I guess thats why its important to fill out those surveys when they are given, even as annoying as they may be.

Do we know how the draw is going to work? Will it be only good for the archery season or lumped in with the riflers?

Two hallmarks of any good study and any good statistic:
1) produced by random sampling
2) based on a sufficient sample size

The above quoted statistics suffer from a lack of both. In the future a possible solution might be to implement mandatory reporting - this is another topic entirely. However, if this were the case, then we wouldn't be estimating the archery harvest, we would know it (in so far as the numbers represent what respondents claim to have killed or not killed).

Even if we knew exactly how much archery hunters contributed to the harvest in 2011, this in itself would not be sufficient information to decide if archery hunters are exceeding or not exceeding the 15% limit. That's because that statistic is itself a sample from a larger population. Specifically, it is a sample of one of many years. What we need to look at are archery harvest TRENDS, not simply a slice in time (2011). It is possible that archery harvest for 2012 is estimated at under 15%, yet the trend over the years might indicate that we (archers) are tending to exceed the 15% limit.

Several people have already mentioned the issue that the likelihood of kill reporting might differ between gun and archery hunters. This is a major concern, and if we could have an estimate of response rates between the two parties (bow vs. gun vs. bow+gun hunters), then we might be in a position to make some conclusions.

What I find out hard to understand is why the bowhunters are limited to only 15% of the acceptable harvest . If they make up more than 15 % of the hunters afield , why would there allowance be lower ? As bowhunter numbers rise wouldn't you think there should be some adjusting of the scale ? Maybe should be cutting some tags from the other side in order to balance it out .

Mule deer applicants
48780 in 2006
50973 in 2007
53600 in 2008
58934 in 2009
61218 in 2010
64519 in 2011
64780 in 2012

They have added zones to the draw over the years so it has increased applicants numbers but those zones added don't give these kind of increases. The point here is srd is managing based on mule numbers, zones added and demand for tags. Bow pressure has grown as well as rifle, get used to it, they'll manage it as best they can with the resources they have no matter how much you covet bow hunting.