i would like your guys opinion of where the front of the horn has to be on a 4/5 th's legal ram. the regs say the anterior of the eye, which i take to be the eyeball, but i have been told by a fish and wildlife officer that the front of the tear duct is the anterior of the eye. if this is so how do they measure a caped ram with no tear ducts left?

As only the eye socket and eyeball are required to remain intact for registration, I think that would negate the use of the tear duct for determining legality.

The eye ball is the part to go buy.

"The eyeball" is too vague. The front or the back of the eyeball? The middle? Clearly the F&W guy said the tear duct because the tear duct is at the front of the eyeball (when viewed from profile). The definition of "anterior" is "situated before or towards the front". This is clearly described and illustrated in the regs.

And who goes and buys eyeballs? :lol:

I think you misunderstood the question Oko. There is no question that the regs clearly state the forward portion of the eye...the question is what constitutes the eye. To me it means the eyeball and as the regs state the anterior portion, that to me means the front of the eye ball. The problem with using the tear duct is that it's not part of the skull when you submit the head for registration....the eyeball is. Although with that said, I'm not going to shoot a ram that's legal to the eyeball and not the tear duct...lol but for registration purposes, I can't see them using anything but the eyeball.

I agree it is tough to judge full curl or 4/5ths curl. The ram we shot this year is only a couple inches past full curl on the one side and barely full curl on the other. We were in a 4/5ths zone so we were not worried but in 400 we might have left him. We were below the sheep even though we were close from that angle they looked shorter. The ram we left was most likely 4/5ths but we left him because we did not want to come up short. I am sure he was close to a 180+ ram though because his bases were almost as big as the other ram just a few inches shorter.

I think the key words there are "for guys that haven't done it before".

Neither 4/5 or full curl are particularily difficult to judge once you have some experience but for the novice, it can be intimidating. Most Alberta hunters have very little experience judging full curl rams and what many guys consider full curl rams don't make it by legal definition. It's big leap from 4/5 to full and as Rack pointed out, many rams will never be full curl despite being truely giant rams. This is especially true in southern parts of the province.

And the current regs protect these "genetically inferior" rams and allow them to continue to reproduce. How about reversing the rules for a few years and allowing sub-curl rams to be harvested, protect the big boys and allow them to reproduce, sort of like what is done for some fish? Just a thought (an admittedly pretty uninformed one) ;):D

LOL......hardly genetically inferior...just a horn style more common in southern Alberta. The current regulations allow for the harvesting of these "genetically inferior" in the vast majority of WMUs.

x2....the key words are 'for guys that havent done it before'. Its a skill (like anything else) that is learned. Takes a lot of looking and a lot of patience and looking in the off-season at every ram you can (dead or alive) to really get good at judging sheep.

Sure is wild to see some big loopy rams in 400 that are just true pigs but are a long ways off full-curl. Some of them just barely squeak by 4/5ths and are still very big heavy loose curled rams.

4/5
 

Just so you guys know it may say the eyeball in the regs but it actually is the eye socket!!
I know this from past experience with a hunting buddy of mine that I was with and killed a ram. The sheep was taken away from him. He was given the meat and was told he was not allowed to hunt sheep the next year. No fine was given. He had skinned the sheep out and the Head Edmonton "sheep expert" came in and said he was short by 1/16 of an inch. This was 1/16 of the eye socket and even though he said it may say eyeball in the regs the definition of eyeball is supposedly the eye socket. He said if we didn't cape it out it probably would have passed.
Needless to say a little bit of Lawyering and a few $$$$ my friend got his sheep back. Not sure really sure if they were flexing their muscles a bit but it was one of the district main dudes that took the sheep away to begin with. Not sure why they left the meat to my friend if they deemed it illegal.
Moral of the story that I learned is if it is close don't cape it out if you can help it.
Wish I had close up pictures of the ram so show you.

I think the fact that your friend got the sheep back proves that the "expert" was wrong and it's not actually the eye socket. Your advice about leaving a cape on a close sheep is good though. Sounds like your buddy got lucky......I doubt anyone could judge 1/16 of an inch on live ram. It still amazes me why guys will pull the trigger on such close sheep.....

I've made the call on some close sheep over the years but a 1/2" is a long ways from a 1/16 inch. If it's that close...don't shoot! I've never even seen a square put on a ram.....that's the way I like it.

This kinda stuff sucks and happens more than a guy thinks. Last ram I checked in for an outfitter was broomed a good inch over legal and the first officer said he couldnt get it legal. So he called in another officer that I know well and had been in Rocky for a pile of years and he didnt even put the square on it and called it legal.
Lots of guys get transfer into districts that have to check sheep in and have no experiance in it.
Moral of the story is I guess that be sure its well over legal.

A large ram with great genetics can be broomed off a long ways back (you would be surprised how much they can lose) making it less than full curl, so I don't really think that would accomplish much.

hunter harvests
 

http://www.huntingfortomorrow.com/HF...20Oct%2008.pdf

Alberta resident hunters account for 70 to 75 percent of the sheep harvest in Alberta. Far too many small rams are being harvested by resident hunters too lazy to get a closer look and determine if a ram is legal. The current fines for shooting a short ram are extremely affordable and do not act as a deterent.

When it goes on draw at least we will get more money from guiding which will be great but in some WMU's residents unfortunately will have to wait up to 30 years for a tag. This will create more opportunities such as creating allocations available to non-residents as well.

Sheephunter, that was 1/16 of an inch short from the eye socket part. It will amaze you how much more length it takes to get it legal for the eye socket. Take a look the next time you cape a ram out and you will see it takes a fair bit more length. We had watched the ram for a long time and were also within 80 yards of him for at least 1/2 hour. I didn't have any doubt it was legal and caped it out having no doubts. I new how the cape being taken off would effect it and still didn't think it was going to be a problem I was so confident. Boy was I surprised. From now on anything remotely close stays cape on if I can help it.

Thanks pika....I knew those numbers had to be somewhere. 188 rams harvested in 2007...I thought there would be more.

Those stats sure prove how ineffective that resident hunters really are. Over 50% success for the outfitters and 7% for residents. Considering residents get an extra three weeks to hunt and can hunt WMUs not open to outfitters, it really makes you wonder if the problem is not enough mature rams or just poor sheep hunters. The stats seem to indicate the latter. No question that limited entry draws would lead to more larger rams but I'm not sure it would equal more succcess. It seems there are plenty of legal sheep out there........

That shows us how ineficient most residents are at killing sheep. I know in Wilmore the one outfitter I know usually hits 6 out of 8 tags and usually higher success. In fact I was told by one of the guides they killed 8 for 8 this year and killed another 4 sheep for friends. Pretty good success I would say.
If a guy has just as much time to hunt sheep as a client he should be getting one every 2nd year you would think. Why is it that some guys take 10 years to kill one? It isn't sheep numbers I don't think.

If sheep goes on draw the group that would benefit the most would be the outfitters.

In theory less residents would be out there.

The sheep outfitters also lobby hard to be able to hunt the first and last two weeks. If this was ever changed it would have a definate effect on resident success.

Really makes you ponder what group would be pushing for a resident draw?

My understanding is that they will make it a 5 year wait after a successful hunt way before they make it a draw.

I fail to really see what that will accomplish. I don't think the problem is guys shooting multiple rams but lots of sheep hunters each taking a ram. I question a system that punishes those that work hard at sheep hunting and are successful.

Full Curl
 

It is simple, put sheep on full curl all over the province if anyone shoots a sheep less than an 1.5 inchs short of legal they pay a fine which goes directly into sheep habitat and they get to keep the ram. (Honest Mistake) If it is shorter than that tough luck you loose your ram and get the book thrown at you. Protects immature rams everyone gets to hunt.....

Factor in time and sheep herders and you'll have your answer.

Does anyoe have the total number of Nonresident tags held by outfitters?

You have to realize that with the resident sheep tags, a portion of these are the guys that are the weekend hunter guys that only hunt sheep a couple days a year. I see alot of these guys up on the hummingbird. And then some of the tags are guys hunting for the very first time and dont really know whats happening yet. The actual number of true sheep hunters will be well lower than tht total shows.

If every guy dedicated the time into sheep hunting like the outfitters the resident numbers would sky rocket and sheep numbers would be really hurting. There are guys that put in the time and effort every year and these groups are usually pretty successful.

Outfitters are doing what everyone on here would do in the same position. Do anything to protect a make it easier to make a living.
Im not defending them but they lobby to get stuff then guys cry about it! We out number them 100-1 at least so If we put our time and efforts into the issues that concern us instead of just talking about it alot of things would be different.
SG

Better yet, you shoot a short sheep and you're done. Period. Lifetime ban on sheep hunting. If I can pay that close of attention you can to. Sometimes it just takes a little motivation to care enough to do so.

85

So them big broomed book sheep that dont make full curl shouldnt be hunted?
Lots of bighorns in alberta will never be anywhere close to full curl and it has nothing to do with age or genetics. Like TJ stated its just horn structure seen in our province.

HORN LENGTH DOESNT SHOW MATURITY OR AGE

Full Curl
 

I shot a 8.5 year old ram that was 40 inches on both sides in a 4/5 zone in 1998 that Scored 182 2/8 and you would have difficulty telling if it is a full curl ram standing beside the mount. No one should be second guessed for taking a mature ram like this in full curl zone, as that is what it is intended to do.

Full Curl
 

I guess that insures that the genetics will not be depleted by leaving some of the big broomed rams. Also, the same rule could be applied to an age structre. If he is less than one year under the age requirment you keep him and pay a fine. If more than that too bad...

X2