I reread it and I know what you are saying. I just focused in on those particular signs and have seen similar things done here. The most inventive one was they took a No Trespassing sign and a No Hunting Allowed and cut them both up, put them back together to read Trespassing Allowed. Maybe funny to them but I just tore it down and put up 2 more to replace them.

HunterDave and other recent posters here put a spin it whatever way they want to try and blame other factors. Everyone on here gets that there are other factors but that doesn't deflect it from one of the major factors being quaders. That's how you solve big problems, you focus on one aspect, deal with it and then move onto the next. So try and deflect all you want even when everyone knows it's the truth.

Vandals and low lfes who disrepect the environment or other peoples' personal property are just that , no matter if they are on a quad, in a truck, in a boat, or on a horse.
Cat

Guess I'm showing my age. Something rotten in the twine box means that the twine is rotten and won't tie the bundles or things are coming apart. Sorry if I confused you with a saying from Rural Alberta from 50 years ago.

Agreed Cat. I started off earlier by saying that its the bad apples...

Unfortunately its the quading that gets them into all kinds of places they wouldn't on a truck or other larger vehicle. I thought it was a few until I put up cameras to record repeat offenders. Some repeats, but, I was surprised at how many are new every time. It's not like a live in a bad area...other than a lot of good creek land on our property and thus the quaders like the area.

The other point is the damage quads to just by moving. I have one, I use it on the farm for work. It is only a old 2 wheeler. I have to take corners slow on the grass or it rips it up. And the tires I have are down the middle and not too supped up. One of the places where they cut the fence, 3 years ago now. The quad tracks still look like there were just made. Quads do a lot of damage, quickly, and it is long lasting.

It is also strangely very popular in the province. The shear numbers I see are proof. Seems like everyone and their dog has a quad. Why so many want to take them and off road on private property is beyond me. They don't seem to use the local and maintained trails around the river valley.

I hope this helps understand why I'm ticked at one particular group of people.

Hunter Dave,

As I mentioned in another post, if you actually took the time to read it, was.......It's not the signs that are the issue.

I'll repeat.

Signs can be replaced for a cost.

Habitat can't be replaced.

OHV users damage habitat, whether they intend to or not. It does not take a rocket surgeon to understand this.

There are too many OHV users with too little common sense.

Hopefully there will soon be a ban on OHV's on all public lands.

The reality is that all users of the back country cause damage in one way or another.

Given enough time I'm sure most activities will be banned from public lands. Keep in mind that as you champion to have ohv's ban there are those that are attacking your pass times as well. The leftist tree hugger doesn't want you back there hunting or fishing as well.

But hey, keep banging on that drum, I'm sure you'll find satisfaction sooner or later:shark:

Didn't confuse me with the saying just not sure what you were implying is messed up.

You should fix the error in your original post to reflect parts of the Pembina - ie the whole river is not closed.

You are right. I read the reference on the AWA site and didn't expand or research the post completely enough so that it was clear to one and all.
However, this site doesn't allow edits after a short time.
Guess, next time, i'll mind my own business.
Lesson learned yet again.


Don

Same goes for the areas around Fox Creek.... more industry damage here. Pulling thousands of cubes of water daily out of the rivers and creeks here all while chopping and hacking down everything in sight. You don't even have to go too far off the beaten path to see the carnage, but the further you do go the worse it does get. The 'rivers' are creeks and the creeks are a trickle and they're still pumping out of them. Not to mention with every bit of moisture those same rivers and creeks turn into chocolate milk.

Solution?
 

So, does anyone who enjoys ripping their quads through the backcountry have a solution to offer? I have read this thread and all the others on the FFC, FB groups etc. and I don't see any solutions being offered.

This thread has turned into a complete witch hunt for some reason.

Now I'm new to these parts so understand the weight of my opinion. Please keep in mind it's only that - my opinion!

A solution that has been offered elsewhere is seasonal closures to trails. Seems like a good idea or at least a starting point to discuss.

I have a bias to one side of this for sure BUT the commonality I see between all of these threads on all different forums is OHV users only jumping in to bash a fisherman OR to point out that fisherman do damage as well, citing poachers and poor handling. Yeah granted some mutants have infiltrated the fishing community as well and are only interested in a hero shot for FB, with a monster bully - but that is a different talk for a different day. However I feel that if your only argument is that the other party ALSO does damage, what are you seriously accomplishing? If you think the number of OHV users is equivilant to the number of poachers then we are talking apples and oranges. I don't see any solutions offered above just axes being grinded and personal vendettas being aired.

My point being - neither party is faultless in this so we need a solution instead of pointing at the other one. Most of you are probably parents - what is your course of action when one kid says it was the other kid? Both lose is my guess.

If you like quadding - come up with a solution to improve your footprint. As of right now the only answers being offered are fingers pointed.

The finger pointing is done by the fishermen that steadfastly REFUSE to acknowledge that their pastime also causes impact to fish stocks. They say oh its not as much impact. BS. There are lots of lakes in the province that are not in the least affected by quadders, but fish stocks are declining in those areas as well.

Why do we have walleye draws? Why is Calling Lake now down to one small walleye to keep, while pike are closed? Going to tell me quadders are damaging the fish stocks in Calling Lake also?

Couldn't be the hundreds of boats on the lake when you were allowed to keep more fish?

With the amount of fishermen and amount of lakes, rivers in this province, I'm expected to accept the fishermen's position that there are way more bad quadders than fishermen. Again, BS. There are tons of poachers and fishermen that don't follow the rules and damage fish stocks, but lets just concentrate on OHV users.

THAT is the issue I have with their position.

thanks!
 

I appreciate you highlighting my point so quickly.

The draws and regulations etc. I believe are to help with the impact of fisherman on our waters. As I mentioned, we are culpable.

There are many causes of these issues, fishing pressure is one of them and it is one of the easiest for AEP to control hence why there is now a closure in that area.

I doubt 5 years of fishing closure is really going to make that much of a difference though. More likely just like the southern lakes it will force the regular Pembina fishermen to hammer other creeks in that area harder.

Dead wrong. The finger pointing is from decent human beings who like to use the backwoods places in this province but can't stand it due to quading and dirt biking idiots. Imagine sitting in your campground around 9 p.m. What is going to wreck your evening more, a son and his father fishing and enjoying themselves or a ear deafening quader to close for comfort. When riding a horse a long a nice stream, which would you prefer, a nice hello and nod from a fly fisher or a dirt bike coming to close for comfort, scaring the horse, and then his quading buddy roars through the creek yelling profanities. Sound familiar to some here...how about a common occurrence on a long weekend,

You are so out of your element here your really not making any sense.

You are talking about the impact on your enjoyment, he is talking about the impact on the fish populations... Two very different things.

Fishing, even catch and release, definitely has an effect on fish populations. I have seen fishing pressure single handedly negatively affected multiple water bodies in the few years I have fished here...

As I said before there are multiple reasons for the fish population decline and angling pressure is one of those reasons. Whether or not closing the area to fishing instead of taking different approaches is the right way to do things is debatable.

Well said Rav. A very unbiased observation.

No you missed the point. It is not just anglers upset by quaders. The list is long and endless. Which makes his point about anglers blaming quaders incorrect, it is everyone that can make this claim against idiots on machines.

As usual, instead of addressing quaders ripping up and destroying the back country, which is where this started, he defects to Calling lake as a comparison of damage??? Yeah...

Seems others understand the point not sure why you don't. Probably because you refuse to acknowledge your impact on fish stocks. Easy to blame others rather than looking in the mirror. Typical of hypocrites.

One main difference between fishing pressure and OHV damage is that as a fisherman I pay a fee to fish, which can be used to improve and mitigate some of the harm my recreation may inflict on a waterbody. I will pay a licensing fee and those monies will be used to support the Alberta fishery. However, OHV users do nothing to repair/mitigate the damage they may do to streams. They are not required to purchase a fishing license to tear up a stream bed and damage fish habitat. Therefore, they do not contribute any funds to support the repair of that damage. At least as a fisherman I am invested in the health of the areas I fish and will try to protect and/or improve those areas( stream improvement projects Trout U). I doubt OHV users are as interested in those issues as fisherman are. Just another thought.

You might be surprised at the work some riding clubs do. Not only cleaning up trails and building bridges but also picking up smelt containers, old pickrel rigs, and garbage from the slob fishermen. Pretty sure if quadders were charged 25 bucks a year there wouldn't be an end of the world outcry from quadders. A lot of fisherman are using quads and quad trails to get to back country fishing spots nowadays. Maybe it's time to split the difference and start working together.

I have Fished the Upper Pembina for 40 plus years .I have stated on numerous sites closing the the Upper Pembina will actually do more harm then good if the goal is to try and help restore the Grayling population. Why ? Because there is NO PLAN to deal with the issues that caused the problem in the first place. If someone knows or sees this PLAN please let me know. There is no money for this so called plan.. So the Brookies will go wild...

They have banned quading in multiple recreation areas and the fish stocks still aren't amazing in all those areas... Quaders are not the only reason for a poor fish population in the Pembina and you are crazy if you think so.

Want example of fishing pressure issues.

Crimson Lake, fished out in little over a year...
Obed Lake, being fished out with heavy pressure, obvious decline in fish stocks the past couple years.
Wabamun Lake, a catch and release fish sanctuary, many dead and injured fish from handling.
Muir Lake, another primarily catch and release fishery with multiple dead floaters from handling.
Ram River cutties show signs of missing lips, deformed jaws and there are probably dead ones as well all from catch and release fishing.

Those are just a small handful of water bodies that I have seen fishing including catch and release have a significant negative impact on the water body in the few years I have been fishing here.

Quadders may be more damaging but all the other guy claimed and he was right in doing so is that the fishermen also have an effect.

Now instead of arguing on a forum if you think the true reason for poor fish stocks in the Pembina is quadding then get some examples and propose it to the government on why quadding is the actual culprit and try to convince them to close those areas to quadding or at least enforce the laws(quadders aren't supposed to be going in the rivers/creeks so shouldn't have an effect on fish stocks).

The difference in impact is completely different...
Fisherman impact fish stocks/populations which can be managed
OHVs impact the overall habitat which impacts the fish and wildlife populations in the area and downstream for generations, not to mention they impact other rec users peaceful enjoyment of nature.

As already stated; fisherman help mitigate their impact on fish populations by purchasing a license and following regulations. Is this enough? not even close in my opinion. Should OHVs follow something similar...perhaps its time.

Could OHVs be the cause of a fisheries collapse...there are numerous accademic papers on the effects they have on aquatic systems, but with most problems it is way more complex than that and there are numerous contributing factors that have lead to its collapse.

The path that I feel best suits all sides (environment included) is EDUCATION, better communication and enforcement. If OHV users are required to take a operators course in order to drive in the backcountry it would educate them on proper etiquette, best practices for minimizing impact and where and what not to do. The money for these courses could go to local riding clubs or non for profit groups to do habitat mitigation work. Follow this with enforcement and dialoge between user groups so we are not put at odds with one another and there might be a light at the end of the tunnel.

If you consider the amount of money the government collects in taxes for other methods of transportation (car, buses, trains, taxis, planes ect) or in park fees for other rec activities, then OHVs have to be the most destructive least taxed of any transportation or rec user. Is it any wonder why this market boomed and only now are we really starting to see its effects.

Food for thought...

I was ready to come out guns a blazing depending on your response but the above is a good post. And I agree with it.

By the way, I never once talked about the state of fishing. As per all my rants on here...and there are a lot of them...it is the general damage that quaders do anywhere, to anything that turns my stomach. The introduction of fishermen as a problem was done by sympathetic quading supporters on this post when they have no where else to go in this conversation. They don't want to help with ideas, they want to point fingers at something else, as others have put so well here. All they get is a big FAIL on the attempt.

At least you offered some good info and pointing towards a solution. Thanks for that.

For me, I need work on my own land and area farmers on getting rid of them here first. In that, I will not fail.

Evidence of illegal stream crossing from ATVs taken from the West Castle. In sections where they've been banned for years the damage is still evident. All photos were reported to SRD and local MLA.

http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/...psjwfreq4c.jpg

http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/...psxxc0na4z.jpg

.

ATV owners pay a vehicle registrations fee for each atv no different then any other vehicle registration, which happen to be much more then your fishing license.

Here is a report from the Alberta Government for the Bighorn Backcountry Access Management Plan regarding trail monitoring/ maintenance/ repair
http://esrd.alberta.ca/recreation-pu...ry-Feb2016.pdf

There are several clubs out there working on trail maintenance

Looks pretty minimal to me. Nothing wrong with a one track crossing and moving slow and easy while using it. A lot less damage in that than wading miles up and down creeks disturbing numerous redds while fishing.

I spent a few hours today picking up garbage from some fisherman at the East Hillcrest bridge today. Out of towners as there is Mcdonald's bags strewn along with a pile of other garbage where the pigs park. You get a different view there of whats not right as there is no quads around. In the summer you can see the traffic trails over the rocks in the water on every accessible inch of river along with the beat down banks. The fishers who hold there nose in the air and claim they stay exactly on or below the high water mark don't realize they are in the trouts kitchen...

Klondike you are correct about OHV reg. fees as well as trail maintenance. However none of this is beneficial to the streams or the fishing that may be damaged by illegal OHV activities , whereas, some of the WIN card and license fees are used to improve our fisheries, stocking programs, and fish habitat enhancement.