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3/4 of the people that post in this thread have no clue about native history and how the treaties came about , they only see the present situation ,but really don't have a clue. |
I think the thread had been going well and a lot of good information is being posted where we can see other's point of view etc. Learn a little, try to be open minded and maybe even come up with some viable solutions to problems that keep surfacing. I do not want to see the thread closed or anybody else to be banned.
Flint you have some great input in many areas with a lot of expierience in many facets of outdoor pursuit. I am not saying anything to personally offend you but..... calling others on here bigots or any other names is totally un called for and does nothing constructive for the rest of us. The history of the treaties is important as we need to understand the past to protect the future. Everybody's expierience with the past is part of the problem/solution for the future. Play nice. |
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Not only the white man killed,raped and burned,the natives committed the same atrocities.Regardless of how the natives were treated in the past,it does not change the fact that legislated racism is wrong in today's society.I wish that I could truthfully say that I lived in a country where every man,woman and child was equal under the law,but in Canada,that simply isn't the case.As great as Canada is,we still have backwards racist laws,that prevent us from being an even greater country.
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I guess I'm a bigot, I've been called a lot worse on the interweb. Don't really care to tell you the truth. History is just that, history, and we need to work towards tomorrow to save out fish and wild life.
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It is not legislated racism
Flint only touched on a few points on how the natives were treated. They were the keepers of the land for perhaps thousands of years and lived in harmony with nature only taking what they needed as nature provided.
The treaty rights for hunting and fishing were granted by representatives of the "whites" and for the most part they were promised "the sky" for the people making the promises were certain they would never have to live up to the letter of the law as "assimilation" and even "genocide" would by and large eliiminate the need to fulfill the promises. You could lose status and thus not qualify for treaty rights by converting to Christianity (the Jesuits looked afte that one as well as marryiing "white". Many lost status serving in the world Wars for you could not enlist and keep status. It is largely incorrect to state that natives also raped, burned and killed for they for the most part learned this from the original settlers of the land who the natives offered to share with (not be enslaved). whites invented scalping, and thought it was such a joke for native women to complain about rape (nes squaw = no sex) that they named native women "squaws". (sex) then look at the early settlersdistributing chicken pox infected blankets to the newly established "reservations" and you have a very small idea of how this "genocide" was planned so promised rights from the Great Father (King) would never be claimed. thousands of years living on and from the land compared to a few hundred years of destroying it with ever expanding range requirements? Whose rights need reining in????? |
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Have you ever read the terms of some of the treaties?I have read several,including treaties three,five and eight.I for one would like to see Canada follow the terms of those treaties to the letter.By the way,there was a clause in several of those treaties that allowed for Canada to regulate hunting and fishing by aboriginals,so the government could regulate their hunting without violating the terms of most of the treaties. |
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counting coup
Not all but many battles were determined by gaining an advantage over an adversary and it was not necessary to kill to win. Counting coup is based on pride of winning the battle without killing the opponent. Like many creatures in the animal world natives recognized survival of the species necessitated non lethal battles much the same as the rest of the animals kingdom where holding an advantage the dominant animal gives way when the opponent goes to submissive posture.
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree for I do not feel legislation that corrects past injustices is racism for it was racism that caused the legislation to be passed to correct the white is right attitude prevalent for many years. Treaties that contain provisions to restrict hunting and fishing rights have not been acted upon because for the most part populations can sustain a harvest. Wonder how much the east coast fishery was affected by the animal rights groups boycotting seal products and killing the seal harvest or Japanese factory fishing ships but a native substenance fishing with a pitch fork will get the blame. |
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This is just my opinion, but I think the Natives are very fortunate to have what they have. I haven't done extensive research, but i don't know of another country other than Canada, and the U.S where this is going on. If you were taken over , sort of speaking by another race, you didn't have exceptions, you counted your lucky stars you weren't wiped out, thus you began living like the conqueror.
I think that if some Groups are going to abuse the systems our goverment has created for them, OR any other special interest group in Canada, their privilages should be revoked.No different than any other profession that doesn't keep current on schooling, training or hours.Let the ones using their special exceptions continue too , only if it's for the better of Canada and society, there are grateful people out there too!. |
Non-Natives, are just Jelous that they dont have the hunting& Fishing, privlages that our aboriginal people do.
I know that if I was Native i'd hunt 8 months of the year for Trophy animals,and I'd Eat the Meat aswell!!! I know some Natives from Saskatchewan that live in a reserve that border's our hunting area,and these two brothers have shot 7 whitetail bucks over 190".and 5 out of the seven where shot in the hunting season.but even if they were'nt it does'nt matter because it's there RIGHT to hunt year round!!! |
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I dont care if Natives dont have to pay for there tags but in order to properly manage are Wildlife populations they should have to follow the same seasons as non native people do and have the same bag limits. Sustenance hunting is a crock of S**T because from what I can see the Bands have more money then most people I know. |
When I see Metis subsistence fishermen climb into their 185 with floats and head out to their favorite lake(walleyes knows who I mean), and see other subsistence fishermen who own a trucking company situated in more than one place, that is worth in excess of $60 million, and subsistence fishing at Touchwood, I have a huge problem(walleyes knows him as well). Was there a fish fry at the Ponoka Stampede?
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I don't mind paying for tags, I have something called a job. I don't want to hunt for free, I want everyone to pay so it's equal. Guess that makes me racist. |
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What's the point to have rules to preserve our wildlife, when there are groups who are exempt and can effect the outcome for the rest of Alberta. |
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Lot of those "History on Film" movies that you have been watching are just that movies not historical fact. Just to show where your reasoning is flawed would be for me to counterpoint your argument by saying natives were allied with the english in the film "Last of the Mohicans" Gotta go me and Shwanky have to go worship satan:rolleye2::rolleye2: Great way to wreck a thread. |
One interesting thing I found this winter was in Mexico. The wife and I did a tour of a mayan village. Mayans in mexico are the equivalent to our natives. These mayans for the most part still live totally off the land and recieve absolutely nothing as far as tax breaks and money from the government. These people were poor but very happy. The tour guide who was also a Mayan was very insistant in none of the tourists giving the people any money. They know what it will lead too. The children make little trinkits you can buy but that is about it. I found it quite interesting how they live versus our reserves. I asked the tour guide about any issues with drug and alcohol abuse in the villages. He looked at me kind of weird and said absolutely not. As far as I could tell the only differences between them and our natives was government exemptions and handouts.
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Every time.....
I think I am out, they pull me back in.
First off I am sick and tired of all the non-native people on this board playing the victim. Our hunting rights are pretty much the only advantage we have over non-natives. Bill Maher said it best that racism is still alive and well. But most white people only recognize reverse racisim. They don't lynch people any more but those feelings are still there brewing deeply. Trying to strip our hunting rights are just another more relevent tactic. Sure in a perfect world everyone would be equal. But this isn't Eutopia. The feeling you get when you see a native person deep in your gut is hate. As long as it's there we can never be equal. Alberta is to Canada as the "deep south" is to the united states. There are far deeper issues masking themselves in the posts that so frequently occur. Just because you say you are not racist does not make it so. It's not all the non-native's fault. Hate flows both ways. Hate breeds ignorance and pettyness. That's why these threads tend to follow the same patterns. I am aboriginal. I practice subsistance hunting. I feed my family. I will not apologize for it. And I will do whatever it takes to keep this right. |
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Now for the list of the breaks given to non-natives-it's so short,that it doesn't even exist. |
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I commend you for buying tags if you are status ! Do you feel hatred when you see native people ? I won't believe 5 % of the people feel that. The main issue of contention here is giving more or greater rights to metis. And remember this fall if you get skunked you still can get an animal to feed your family for "subsistence." You already have that right along with every other person on this forum. Now that is equality it the 1st order. |
Maybe our views of history are different.
I am not Metis. Not Indian. I am Inuit. I buy tags for hunting with my non native friends. My wife is full treaty Cree. I don't know about your views but to me "native" and "advantage" are two words that I don't associate with each other. I did not say it was our only advantage so you better reread my post.
What I can tell you is my personal experiecs being native. Living in Alberta you see first hand the interaction between natives and non natives. Although many people are not racist they do perpetuate stereotypes. I constantly feel the need to "prove" myself to my non native counter parts. You have no idea how many times I've heard "You are so well spoken." I am not saying "whitey is evil". My father is non native. Racism is alive and well on both sides. To say it not is ignorant. If saying "5%" of people feel this way that's still over 20000 people in Edmonton alone. People have just been ridiculed to the point where they no longer express their views outloud. I have a degree in Native Studies and a minor in Anthropology. Believe me when I tell you how well I know the topic of Native history and the human nature of it especially as it applies to Alberta. I would like some actual cconstructive discussion rather the same old few tired arguments. |
"some reserves have major problems which they need to fix themselves"
The reserve in itself is a problem for native people. They were convinced to go there and give up huge tracts of traditional land on the premise that their needs would be looked after. How does a tradition of hunter/gatherer do in a concentration camp. Go visit one sometime and see the poverty, depression, suicide, hopelessness. to the many who are getting an education and become successful on saw mills, trucking companies or whatever my hat is off to them for they have risen above the odds and made success from what could be more trajedy. My grandparents were native and made a decent living from guiding trapping and hunted and fished when they needed food to feed 9 children. they never took a handout and were not affiiated with any reserve. Although poor by comparison to the white expectation they were very happy on their homesteaded little piece of land. A televison education on aboriginal culture (the savages) was written by white folks and is not an accurate depiction of the true culture. Get an education if you would like to make an informed statement. Start by listening to many of the informed elders on the culture and history. One i heard thought it was hilarious Columbus is given credit for discovering America "as we were not lost, he was" the natives offered cohabitation to their new "friends". Some and not all of the settlers viewed natives as savages or pagans despite having their own culture, goverment and religion. This from a white culture that was still hunting down heretics and witchs and burning them at the stake. That is civilized. the natives did not bring a knife to a gun fight but rather welcomed the settlers and assisted them in many ways in acquiring food and shelter in what was considered a harsh climate. The reward was the taking of all land and being set up in concentration camps where speaking their language, practicing their religion or even passing the native ways education on to their childeren was declared illegal. A once proud society has many problems which some members can't overcome but many are doing well. I think it was Mark Twain who said "if the definition of a ni**er is a shiftless lazy person we have a few white ones as well". As has been mentioned there are lazy folks in all cultures. Some as well aspire to greater things but removing treaty rights is just breaking more promises and widening the gap between have and have not. Just as some homeless people are just unlucky in their circumstances that put them on the street some natives just can't seem to catch a break to get out of the rut. the so called "reverse discrimination" laws gives them some advantages to correct past injustices from a largely prejudiced society. Look around many don't fit the sterotype that was typical twenty years ago, and in twenty more years more progress will be made. 200 years can't be overcome in a short period of time. |
We are talking about METIS hunting "rights". Not taking status rights away.
The metis want to INCREASE unregulated access to the wildlife. This is a new deal. Stereotyping is never fair to anyone. I could care less if someone thinks i'm cheap or drink too much scotch because my grandfather came from scotland. I have also seen french girls who were less than 9's and ukrainians who did not like cabbage. As "they" say - don't sweat the small stuff. |
In no way do I say that they should have to give up any treaty rights. There should be some control over animal harvest. The needy can still hunt for food, for free, but there needs to be some control. To continue moving the native people in a forward progressive manner things may have to change a little. And as far as I am concerned, If you move off the reserve and have a career and a successful life, there is absolutely no reason for special treatment. Can I blame some for taking advantage of the system? nope, but that doesn't mean its right. abuse is abuse.
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Isnt he the guy who said they wrap the flank rope around the "Bulls Balz`in order to make him buck harder.. Just because you seem to think I `Hate`you when I see you, doesn't mean you are correct. In fact the ability to even say such a thing reeks of lack of self confidence. Grow a set will yah. I think the best thing that can happen to any tribe is to have self governance of their lands. Right now the Gov owns them. Let the Bands have at them and those that fail will die, those that prosper will make out ok. This is a issue with lots of pitfalls. Unfortunately we seem to have a group (Metis) who like to ask for way more than they deserve. (imho) If we as a nation keep giving away part of who we are, soon we will have no idea who we are. One people, one set of rules. Jamie |
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