That’s another good reason also.


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Can you tell me what shape a piston is at -30C?

Just be glad that you don't have a neighbor that drives a school bus. My neighbor used to leave the bus idling outside of her home, and it was far louder than most diesel pickups.:)

The muffler thing I 100% agree on. However they need to write the law in a way stating a muffler needs to be used behind a turbocharger assembly. In some places they consider a turbocharger a form of a muffler. It’s all on how the law is perceived.

Newer diesels have strategies to warm up the engine within 10 or 15 minutes of start-up. This is because they are technically required to meet tier 4 emissions within 10 or 15 minutes. I forget if its 10 or 15. A cold engine will not meet emissions, the hotter it is, the cleaner it burns. (Except NOx) That is why most new trucks idle for about a minute then go to high idle and apply backpressure to the engine to create boost. More boost means more fuel. More fuel means more heat. Simple really.

Manufacturers only did this and recommend this since the advent of Tier 4 though? Why do you think that is? They are required to, that's why.

Caterpillar had a chart that had idle times for their engines. I'm not about to find it but it used to have minimum idle times for ambient temperatures. I am ballparking these numbers, so don't hold me to it, but I am very close. At +5 they wanted 3-5 minutes of idling. At -10C it was 15ish minutes. At -20C all they said was to idle as necessary.

Cold weather can cause piston skirts to collapse. (If Cabertosser researched what shape a piston is at -30C he will now know why piston skirts collapse and then score cylinders)

Heavier oils used in diesels require more time to warm up to provide proper lubrication. This prevents things like valves from sticking open. Which also requires enough ambient temperature of the valve guides so as not to "freeze" the oil entering it. Having your lubricants able to meet their requirements, as a lubricant, also requires them to be in certain temperatures too. That I consider quite important before you spool up your turbocharger to 100,000 RPM. This also applies to the proper film strength of the oil. Your crankshaft will thank you for providing proper film for heavy load purposes.

If you never bring your diesel to proper temp its susceptible to freezing off its breather and pumping the oil out.

Depending on the temp, your transmission and power steering benefit from the engine warming up.

I have seen oil pumps shear off their drive trying to move heavy oil at higher RPMs

I disagree with the article HunterDave posted. I can shoot videos of equipment starting up and monitor the engine temp in real time on ET. In extreme cold, 7 minutes would likely not have frost off the block yet, let alone at temp. Many times I have not brought a piece of iron off low idle for 20 minutes to just start warming it up, but that is extreme conditions. The article is correct that it may not rise in temp anymore but what it isn't saying is that your entire cooling system and engine will heat-soak to say 120F (just a random number I'm using) with extended idle times. With only 7 minutes the only thing that is 120F is the water jacket on the block and the cylinders. Then the thermostat opens and thermal shocks that engine core down to 50F. Go ahead, I make a very good living due to cold weather. I've never experienced a major engine failure, but lots of people pay me to fix theirs. Many change their operating style, and oils after they talk to me about the failure they just experienced.

Block heaters, and webastoes are great but idle time is required. Even at +5 you should be idling it for 5ish minutes if you went by manufacturers recommendations. Idling for 10-20 is probably about right for most situations.
I would also say that applies to gas engines as well.

Idling with straight pipes doesn't matter if its a diesel or gas job, its just loud. That is irrelevant. That has nothing to do with whether an engine should be idled.

I am surprised that emissions and noise requirements for vehicles has not been improved in this province. One of these days a dbag in a dodge is going to roll coal past some NDP MLA, and the free ride on emissions in Alberta will change. In fact now that I think about it, maybe I will call my local MLA and suggest requiring annual emissions testing. It might be the only useful thing the NDP ever do.

Absolutely! Where's the like button? Got one next door built the same way, jacked to the moon also. Never seen it tow anything, don't think it even has a hitch. Never seen it with anything loaded in the back either.

Not breaking any laws, but not making any friends on the street either.

I've got a question though. Do these modified diesels only accelerate when they're operated at full throttle? That's the way the neighbour does it every morning after it's backed out of the driveway.

My truck has a Bully dog tuner that I can set to
"No Power"
"Tow"
"Performance"
"Extreme"
I keep it on performance and drive it sanely, the fuel mileage is great that way.
Tow mode is when I am hauling the 5th wheel
Never used the "extreme" mode and no longer use the "no power" after I( found out the fuel difference.
When I start it up I let it idle, it will pick up revs then back down on its own.
Cat

Nothing wrong with that and I don't think you've got 8" stacks coming out of the box bed either.
I myself have had a duramax since 2006 tuned and used about the same as what you do. Only difference may be is that I keep it a 40F heated garage so don't need to idle it too long.
To take liberty with the "guns don't kill people" phrase, diesels don't pizz people off, people pizzz people off.

See my post about 6 up. Our neighbour had 3. Breathing diesel fumes and listening to those pigs fire up at 6:00 am is a great way to start the morning. Right up there with napalm.

Idling is silly, if it isnt clanking, ticking or knocking you have lubrication....get moving. Too bad the government has the urge to try and fix stupid all the time.

Mine is an'05 6 liter - it is ALWAYS clanking ,ticking and knocking!!:sHa_sarcasticlol:
Cat

Of course there is an oil film there and their clearances as well as their higher compression are also part of the reason that diesels run higher viscosity lubricant in the first place. I was just noting your incorrect description, when it comes to technical descriptions I'm a stickler for accuracy, heck even the rings have an oil film separating them from the cylinder wall if you want to go down that road. If you want to idle excessively you go right ahead, it seems probable that you're running employer supplied/reimbursed fuel if you're fine with the financial waste of idling for so long. People who pay for their own fuel tend to not be so devil-may-care with how much of it is being burned unnecessarily. Just don't think that everyone else is as easy to blind with inaccuracy as your neighbor is.

What is up with the group of fellows who can't bear a brief chill while their vehicle is getting up to temp? I'll drive as soon as I can safely see through the windshield....

I used to have a neighbour who had a tow truck, one of those big ones with a bed. It ran on timer every hour for about 20 minutes when the guy was at home, at least three months out of the year. That thing was loud. And stinky. The guy lived a few houses down, thankfully. I have no idea how his next door neighbours lived with that **** (maybe still do).

Same. I do not own a diesel though.

Where did I say I let it idle excessively? I did even say how long I let it idle. I let it idle 15min tops. And anyone who owns a 5.9 Cummins will tell you that is not long enough to get heat going lol. I pay for my own fuel and pay and do my own repairs. That’s why I let my truck warm up fuel is cheaper and easier to put in the engines.


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All I know is that when I go,to,town or the so called city people who live there are subjected to a lot of noise pollution...throw in the idiot or two the increase this well you got the icing on the cake...enjoy.

He may have his description wrong but I know what he was trying to explain. When your cold piston (cylinder shape, now shrunk significantly from the cylinder it now rides in) begins to warm from combustion the mass of aluminum varies throughout the piston, thus the piston expands at different rates. Also the bottom of the piston has ambient air temperature oil being sprayed onto the bottom of the head cooling it more than say the skirt. This causes the piston to be shaped more like a trapezoid. So for basic explanations it is a triangle moving in a cylinder. During this time with excessive pressure from compression it forces the thrust side of the piston to tilt causing contact of the cylinder wall as the piston is now travelling cocked in the bore. Then when it goes to intake the piston is flopped in the opposite side of the cylinder wall causing it to contact the opposite side as the cocked piston travels down. This leaves 4 distinct lines on your cylinder wall as someone else pointed out.

I wouldn't argue about a hot water heater with you. I would and have taken any advice you have given about them. I know more about the workings of diesel engines than likely 99.5% of members on this board, please extend me the same professional courtesy. Engines have come a long way in even the last 20 years. A lot of issues we saw as common problems then, now don't seem as prominent. Even Teflon coating pistons helps with cold start-up and the prevention of skirt collapsing. The technology makes the engines more resilient to cold start-up but there are definite benefits to warming an engine up. When you score your cylinder walls as mentioned above, which I see in a lot engines nowadays, I guarantee it causes slight oil consumption, and slight power loss. When this engine needs an overhaul, those cylinders will need to be changed not just honed. (wet sleeve engine) Likely the tech may be uncomfortable with reusing your pistons too. All because you couldn't wait an additional 8 minutes at the cost of 67 cents of diesel.

My personal vehicles all idle to temp, all on my dime. Actually, every internal combustion engine I own (which is a lot when you step back and think about it) idles for a period of time before being loaded. Even in the summer.

As another poster said, "why does google only bring up articles saying not to idle more than 5 minutes." The answer is the same scenario as this thread. All kinds of driver instructors, yoga teachers, and NDP mla's all write their opinions and overwhelm the 3 people that actually professionally work on engines. So the few correct answers are drowned out by the many articles from the dog groomers posting info about diesel engines.

Like! And sorry to cabertosser that I didn’t explain to you in as much detail as him. Next time I will. Next time someone say you don’t need to warm up engines. Start a sled up and pin it tell me how far you go.


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Yes, its all about costs.

Funds towards fuel to warm up motor gas or diesel.
Or funds at a later date for motor repairs.

Cold starts suck,,, gas or diesel, excessive wear as the oil pump tries to get that thick sludge oil to the top of the motor,,, cam bearings, lifters, rockers, turbo along with lower crank case jets that help cool and lubricant the piston skirts.

Motor oil just doesn't flow to these parts at the turn of a key, a good portion of it flows threw the bypass on cold starts.
The colder it is the longer it takes to flow.

Fine and dandy,,, what happens when all motors need to "so called" warm up 3, 5, 7, or endless times threw out the day...

What other components might be in the mix.
As stated, power steering pump and system, the belts and pulleys, tranny, cooling system, charging, fuel and the motor its self.

How would one know what's working they might ask.
Simple.

Do a weeks worth of short city driving or even 30 minute non loaded drives... Normal winter time driving in Western Canada first.

Then on the weekend take the tapped cover off, drain the power steering fluid, check the tranny breather tube.
What would a person see,,, tinge white sludge.
The best practical way to get rid of it is get that motor hot,,, and keep it hot all day long.

How long,,, that depends on moisture in the air,,, even dry winter Alberta has enough to start this milking process,,, funny thing is that the awesome artical does not talk about this.

Next is to head East young man.
Cold wet snow weather Eastern Canada / USA as the milky oil oil in motor, tranny, and power steering systems is a constant.

Hot hot hot with many hours of burns this milk oil off,,, countless starts and stops turns these oils whiter and whiter.

Manufacturers love this,,, selling vehicles is what it is all about.

As for me and family,,, start it up and put on the miles, gas or diesel.
If your going to hang out at A or B for a limited amount of time,,, leave to darn thing running.

Again,,, each to their own and situations that arise.
Each situation is different, and a wize owner will choose what works best for them.

There's no right or wrong, he said this she said that,,, this is what the book said, must be true I guess.
Oh wait a minute,,, how come there is nothing in the book about this or that,,, Hummm,,, somethings not adding up here.

I know one thing, today it is cold, our power units are running and working making us money,,, some will idle slow, some fast.

Doesn't matter so long as remain running for 1 to 2 million miles,,, hopefully we see a profit at some point.
Not only on the commercial side,,, but our personal side as well.

Fuel is frugal, the cost of repairs and down time sucks,,, at times so does winter. LOL

More wrong than right Don

"To each their own" is exactly correct!! When people act like A holes then they get the same in return. Me and the wife both run diesels( need for hauling) and dont ever cause grief because hers is stock mufflers and mine a simple delete which is barely louder.Both are warmed up every morning, longer when cold of course. I believe this is mainly about the straight pipes

I'm curious to known how much damage is caused by idling a diesel all night as compared to starting it in the morning when plugged in and using quality oils. The amount of condensation in that motor after running all night would be significant and would run into corrosion problems. IMO you're probably better off running good oil, plugging it in minimize idle time. Happy owner, happy neighbours.


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i'm not condoning impaired driving...but, that's the kind of creative thinking and can do attitude that makes this province great.

I'm thinking a broken windshield and a brick on the front seat

That sounds about right :thinking-006:

Some situation don't allow the plugging in thing,,, some hotels and camps have plug ins for the 1 tons down, but not our heavy hual units as they sit in the staging areas,,, Wabascos and Pro Heat are nice on our oil field units,,, none on our gravel division. Those units are rev'ed up.

Once there hot and rev'ed up the moisture is brunt off right away,,, if they are slobbering on idle at night, then it seems that condensation starts to build up but very minimal.
So what about the cold start,,, if it's -20c for the heavier with no pro Heat or Wabasco, gloo plugs,,, its going to be a tuff start. -30c on up means your unit won't be working that day. Out comes the tarps, Herman Nelson for a few hours. All profits lost that day.

1 tons with gloo plugs in "most" cases will hammer up at -20 below,,, the odd units might even come to life in the -30c range. High Arctic in the -45c would be nasty.

It is said that a cold cold start is equal to 500 miles of wear. The extra cold is more like 2000 miles. LOL.

There are no records to go by less common sense.
Take a licken on fast idling or cold start.
Again, depends on money.

Let's say a person has an expensive $10.000 gasoline car that is supposed to last you 5, 7, 10+++ years.
1/3 of its life is cold starts.
The question is,,, how will it fare over all.

Let's say it's a diesel VW, would it last as long as the gas motor unit,,, we'd sure hope so.

Some folks have said this light auto diesels are throw away motors,,, they might be right since the cost of a full rebuild "could" top a $7 to $9 G bill.
If a heavy goes down and 1/2 of it is salvagible, $20 G ish give or take.
If it's worse than that,,, $30 G.
If it's pooched,,, $45 on up the $66 G in Cnd funds. this is with labour.

A few of my friends are on replacement rebuilds in their 1 tons,,, the majority of those projects were all closer to the $20 G bill take or give.

Those that have the Ford twin turbo 6 piston gas will chime in on those costs I'm sure.
Last small bill I seen on 1 of them was $6000 ponys. LOL. Lucky thing he did the work him self.

Yuppers, no right or wrong as it boils down to funds.
My day driver is a frugal asperrated 6 piston 2 wdr 1/2 ton. I couldn't even imagine what one of these motors would cost to rebuild or replace.
I'm guessing a $5 G bill easy.

I hope I don't find out,,, as for the others we have.

It takes along time to recoup these costs.

At base their plugged in, even then we always hope the marbles don't spill out onto the ground.

Fingers crossed.

Don

I think concealed carry will solve the whole issue. :scared0018:

Construction outfit from town left their d8's running over night a couple years back. Took the motor out of one.

Except it's not possible.

aw that sucks....$35,000 rebuild?

damned if you do or don't :(