6.5 swede question
My father gave me a model '96 swede many many years ago. Before I owned a chronograph I worked up a load for accuracy, and slowly increased the powder charge until it showed some pressure signs, such as cratered primers difficult bolt lift and or shiny spots on the case head. Once one of more of these showed up I backed off to the last most accurate charge. About 10 years ago I finally pick up a chronograph but never really got around to testing the swede. A few weeks ago I ran 10 rds thru it and discovered to my astonishment it was shooting 140gr spbt at 3008 fps average with a SD of 10 fps. All the literature I've read and research on line indicates the 6.5x55 shouldn't be able to handle this velocity without extreme pressures and probable damage to the firearm and or myself. My question is do I continue with this load or abandon it as a ticking time bomb?
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I never push the old actions like the '96's or the mannlichers that fast even if I don't see pressure signs because once you see them they are already way over the ceiling.
Personally I would run the 140's about 2,500-2,600 FPS in '96 Cat |
loads
What loads are you using specifically? The Swedish steel actions are strong but lack the safety features of the 98 action that replaced it Worldwide.If they let go somebody usually gets hurt or worse. The 96 mauser was designed for 45000-47000 PSI You should have a 29.1" barrel on your 96 If you post the load you are using I have 96 data from the Hornady book that should be safer.Before someone pipes up about the modern sporters Kimber made ....they quit that practice after several incidents/blowups. Beautiful rifles and scary accurate...if the 300 yard zero bothers you install a taller front sight.......Harold
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By the time you see brass extrusion and difficult bolt lift, you are way beyond acceptable pressures, so if you only back off until these pressure signs disappear, you are still beyond acceptable pressures. I run modern actions at around 2750 to 2800fps, with 140gr bullets, and 3000fps is way beyond what I would be pushing with an older action.
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Op if you are running at 3008 out of a 6.5x55 you are way way over safe and normal pressures. I would be pulling the bullets if it were mine.
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I am presently having a similar problem with my m96. I will be turfing my old brass, as the bases are already expanded. Starting with new brass I'll be loading from minimum and increasing 1gr at a time till I see high pressure signs, and recording the velocities. This info will be sent to one of the powder manufactures technicians (who I have been in contact with). He is also concerned as I was blowing primers a couple of grains below their published maximums.
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Considering the bullet / powder makers have spent millions of dollars testing and measuring safe loads, I never exceed the listed loads in the books , and if pressure signs appear before the max load is reached I back off until it is gone.
The #1 rule I was taught many years ago is never try to be smarter than the books. So far I haven't had a single issue with a load being adequate to kill or safe for the gun and the shooter, me. I don't want to be that guy with a rubber mallet, or 2x4 beating his bolt open or looking for a drive to the hospital. |
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to reach that velocity with a 140 gr bullet... tick, tick.. |
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Or you may be far exceeding what is safe, and not know it and a catastrophic fail is about to happen. I can not understand the logic, need and desire to push the envelope. If you want that bullet going faster buy a bigger caliber that easily meets your needs safely . When you want more from your 308, buy an 06, or win mag. |
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Scary Data
The differance in reloading data for the M96 6.5x55 swede from different sources is scary.. Hodgdon and Nosler indicate the maximum load for the 140gr bullets as 47 grains of H4831; That's 3 grains above Hornady's max and a whopping 8 grains above Speer's max. I imagine that amounts to a significant pressure increase.:angry3:
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According to an old loading/dope book of mine (I was a meticulous noted keeper regarding shooting and load development) dated mid 90's the load was 48grs of ammomart 47SL, I bought 10lbs of this powder, there was nothing regarding where i got the load data, but there are 6 pages of development data starting at 40grs. I've become a much more competent and conservative reloader since. I have a 8 rounds of this load left. Think I'll just pulled the bullet and dump the powder.
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I will have to check but IIRC 47SL was repackaged H414
I have one of Tom's old flyers downstairs. Cat |
Each firearm is an individual. What is safe in my gun may not be safe in yours and vice versa, when it comes to developing Handloads. For me - if there were no pressure signs and I enjoyed the round I would go ahead and use it! No worries. The specs and data are a starting point for load development. Most figure it's best to start below the data ever so slightly (not much, as this may well present dangers of its own) and work up from there. So no signs of over-pressure equals no worries.
That said, I would not ask after the safety of my handloads online. So, your question leads me (others too, by the foregoing posts I've read here) to believe that you feel the load to be unsafe. If you do, there's your answer. Especially so if you feel you may have over looked any such signs. All the best, safe and happy shootin! |
These powders are VG
Try some RE#22 or IMR 4350 with the 140gr bullet.in a Swedish 96 begin @ 42gr/IMR 4350......2400fps........MAX 44gr.......2600fps keep in mind you have a 29.1" pipe so could be a little faster.Seat bullets out to touch rifling ,then bump back slightly so they don't,check to see if the will still fit the magazine OAL and you are in business .The data I have for RE#22 is for modern sporters so best send Alliant a note and see what they say for a 96 mauser load wise...Harold
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ALL original 96 Gustaff mausers were proof tested at the factory before leaving,
The factory over pressure , proof test load produced about 55 thou , I have had several 96's and any of these with a good bore were remarkable rifles, My favorite load my present 96 Gustaff , is 48.5 gr Reloader 22 , Magnum primer , behind a 140 gr Berger VLD |
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I purchased about 170lbs at app. three bucks per. Remainder of 3031 equivilant died five years ago, ball powder still good. |
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My Speer Reloading manual lists the following load: 140gr Speer 51gr 4831 2631fps 18" barrel Their test rifle was a Swedish mauser. I've found that 47gr 4831 is max for my rifle and hunting loads are just fine at 46gr. |
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I phoned Andrew directly yesterday because couldn't find my AMMOMART flyer with the specs, and he had it right off the top of his head!:) Tom and Andrew both know their stuff , being trained by Old Tom Higginson.:) Cat |
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I suggest verifying your chronograph results using another instrument.
The best would be using a Magnetospeed, Labradar or sonic in conjunction with your chronograph, but optical chronographs can also be used in tandem (series) configuration. Good Luck, YMMV. |
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Why is Speer Sh**ing their pants now? that's almost a 25% decrease. |
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You asked "Why is Speer ****ting their pants now? Those loads shown are at least 25% lower than before" My reply was basically because those loads illustrated in the pic are for old military mausers (which is what we're talking about) that can't handle loads designed for modern actions. Apparently they now figure out their older data produces pressures too high for them. I noted most manuals have separate data with reduced loads for old guns that can't take modern pressure and also have data on adjacent pages for modern guns. I don't have a newer Speer manual but assume it also has separate loading data to be used only for modern guns. I was hoping people take note to make the distinction and identify the proper data to use for the type of firearm they are loading for. Sorry for the confusion. |
Nick in the firing pin
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http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/...psdb9w3occ.jpg |
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The bevel/ rounded corners of your fired cases are identical to your un fired case :thinking-006: |
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