steps in loading black powder in a plastic case - pic heavy!!
 

I was asked on another forum for pics of hand loading black powder without a press, so I went to the garage and took a bunch of pics .
I figured I would share them here.
I normally don't shoot plastic cases with black powder but in the case of the 10 gauge I have to as I cannot get brass cases here in Canada.
First off, many guns are not 2 3/4" but 2",2 1/2" , 2 7/8", and so on.
One must be sure if the chamber is not stamped on a vintage gun!
For the pictures I used a 10 gauge, seeing how i was loading some different shot for testing anyway, and wanted to shoot the old gun tonight!:)
So, I first cut the case to the desired length, these a[=articular 10's were factory Federals, and very long - the chamber on my Westley Richards hammer double is 2 7/8".
I use a band saw here but one can cut the case with a set of shears or a hacksaw as well.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps63d41d2a.jpg
I then use a small punch to drive out the old primer, and install a new one using a bigger punch- you can make a decapping pin from a nail without the point, and use a dowel to seat the primer as well.
I decap on something that will let the primer fall out, in this case a loading block, but drilling a small hole in your work bench or even a socket of the correct size will do. I drive the new primer home on a block of wood.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...pscf92497d.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps62495186.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps255902e7.jpg
Next I use a black powder measure to add the powder - in this case, 110 grains of FFG
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps47d9c97a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps8205a767.jpg
This next picture shows you the proper wad stack that will allow me to roll crimp the case.
I did not use a lubed wad in this case as I new I would be cleaning the gun before too many rounds were fired through it, but normally Ii would.
Si, two nitro card wads, followed by a cushion wad, an .035 wad on top of that to stop the shot embedding in the cushion wad, the shot, then the over shot wad.
I use the same volume of shot as I do powder, so you do not have to change the measure.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps6e435210.jpg
Ready for crimping - note the small amount of case above the overshot wad!:)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psc23987ea.jpg
The roll crimper can be a vintage one, or liek the on in the pics, one that is chucked in a drill - my drill press runs too fast and melts the case, so I use a cordless drill here.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psa5ffc947.jpg
And there you have it, a nicely crimped shell- the only thing left to do is to mark the OS wad with the load data if you like, then shoot the sucker!!:sHa_shakeshout:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps547cdd2f.jpg
Cat

Very cool, thanks for sharing!!

You'd do well with those SHTF guys. :lol:

Grizz

Very nice job for tools that were used. I like the hands on method too.

Good stuff Cat thanks for sharing

That is pretty neat, being new to reloading I have been reading a lot through your threads and they are always very insightful.

How long would you say that took to reload one of those?

Bassett

It doesn't take too long at all really, the longest part of the whole danged process is the crimp, but when you are doing 20 or so it doesn't take too long.

The shelf life is not too long however- they tend to get shot pretty quick!!:sHa_sarcasticlol:
I would say about 30 to 45 seconds max if the case is already cut and trimmed.
I do my low pressure smokeless loads much the same most of the time as well, except I often use a modern wad instead of the stacked fibre wads.
I also often use a Harrel measure to charge the cases when i am doing 50 or more.
if you do 50 one step at a time it cuts down the overall time as well.:)

Cat

This blackpowder stuff is starting to interest me, I must be getting old.

Whadya waiting for - c'mom over to the dark side!!:bad_boys_20:
Cat

For cutting 12 ga plastic hulls down to 2 1/2 inch I use a piece of 3/4 inch pipe squared off in the lathe and measured/cut to the right length.

The measure slips over a 12 ga 3 inch hull (there are lots of freebie hulls out there) and the cut is done with a box cutter. Quick and easy to do up 50 at one time.

For those of you who have not done roll crimped shells before, the roll crimped 2 1/2 inch hull has about the same capacity as a pie crimped 2 3/4 inch hull.

I personally like the hand cranked roll crimper better than the drillpress crimper.

One must remember though, that it is the stack height, not the style of crimp that mandates the capacity of the shell itself, and the recoil and pressure created by using less wad stack and more powder or shot!:scared0018:

I much prefer a roll crimper as well, I find that most drill presses are much to fast .
Chucked up in a cordless however, one can slow them down, but I think that it is much easier to get a good finish by going very slowly, and this is likely why both you and I like the hand crank better- it is easier to get the pressure just right as well.
I have a massive old Lyman unit that I have been trying to find other chucks for , and it does as good a 10 gauge crimp as I have every seen.


Another thing about roll crimping is that it creates slightly less pressure that a fold crimp, which has been argued before, but the pressure tests that Tom Armbrust has done have proven this out.
Fibre wads also create less pressure than modern plastic wad and I think this has more to do with less gas leakage because of the efficiency of the
modern wads sealing extremely well in the proper case.

Cat

Saskbooknut, what are you using to measure you powder?
Do you use a hand measure like I showed in the pics or do you use a production measure?

Cat

I use my ML adjustable powder measure, just about like the one you picture.
There are guys in our club using the Lyman 55 measure for BP.

I also use the same measure for dispensing shot, calibrating it by RCBS scale. The 80 grain setting is just a whisker under 1 1/16 oz. of 7 1/2 shot.

I use a Lee Loadall for depriming and sizing hulls, for seating wads, and for crimping when doing the standard crimps on BP shells.

I have altered one Lee Loadall for crimped 2 1/2 inch hulls - came across a supply of old Gevelot primed 2.5 inch hulls.

Cat,at some point prior to the process illustrated,I'm assuming you used a die and press to resize the hi-brass hulls?

Nope, no need as the measure is calibrated by volume.

I did once upon a time many years ago check the measure aganst a scale and they work out very very close, and no , there is no need to re-size the cases either.
BP is such low pressure stuff that you can switch from one gun to another with ease unless one is using smokeless loads.
I often decap in a MEC press however, and that will re-size the brass for a person in case a smokeless load is being used
Cat

Not sure why your refering to volumetric measuring,but in regards to using a sizing die,your saying theirs no need to resize BP loads...ok.
What about if you are loading BP into once-fired hulls that you scavenged from duck blinds etc,do they not need to be resized even if they were once-fired smokeless shells?

I've never had to except in a very few instances, then it's simply a matter of either running them through a Lee hand loader sizing die or a machine type loader.
I als have a buddy who made a die from an old shotgun chamber, works the same as the lee hand die.
I was pretty sure somebody had commented about checking the measured charge against a scale, I thought it was you.
Cat

Too cool
 

O.K., I have brass hulls, 3" ones for my .410, so I don't/can't roll crimp the hulls. I need a supply of over shot wads, does Will Bilozir have any? Secondly what do you use to keep the over shot wad in place with no crimp? I'm using clear silicon, like the kind used around a bath tub. It works O.K. but gets on the outside of the case and makes extraction of the fired shell hard. Is there a better way?

Where do I get a roll crimper?

What you are using works great, just wipe off the silicone before it dries and you will be fine.
Bilozir sells over shot wads, yes.
I've also used Barge cement, tremclad primer, and fletching cement.
Some people put a slight crimp on their brass cases but it shortens the case life, I never felt the need to.
Cat

It is only for those that love smoke and flames.

I used a piece of pipe to trim 3" hulls down to 2 3/4 for years. It works great.

Don't forget the smell....gotta love the smell!
My only experience is with BP rifles...but this thread has got me to thinkin how fun it would be to have 3 guys in a duck blind cuttn loose with 9 rounds of the Holy Black,lol.....probly couldn't even see the ducks thru the fog of smoke after 5th 6th shot,woooot!! :D

Does BP sell that roll crimper you were using?

Yes they do.
Cat

I an tell you it's pretty spectacular when the big 10 gets let loose!:sHa_shakeshout:

Cat

Another question Cat?

Are you concerned about wad pressure in these loads?

Thanks.

I compress the black powder loads "just a little", over the years I have found that just a slight crunch is all that is needed ( 30lbs on a MEC scale IIRC)
after the shot goes in, and the crimp is started, it all comes together well and bottoms out on the overshot wads, it will give more than sufficient pressure.
Compressing black powder is the same as smokeless to a certain extent ,but not nearly so important when it comes to even pressure, but it does need to be consistent.
Anybody who has shot a round ball gun can tell you that it doesn't take long to develop the right feel on the ram rod for seating the ball.:)

With a plastic wad and smokeless it is more important that the wad seat on the powder, but with light loads it is very important in the cold weather otherwise bloopers and velocity loss is common!:thinking-006:
Cat