cmon you guys....you really dont think energy has any affect on animals....pffffft!!!! and cmon you other guys....you really think energy does it alone.....pffffft!!!!! energy does matter for sure.....look at the damage to the tissues around the bullet hole of the next animal you kill. of course energy does not do it alone by any means...look at the wound channel of a marginal hit and ask yourself why you had to chase it so far.
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OK, I by no way want to stand on the tracks of this thread. But I must admit it is hard not to post so here I am. Great video Walking Buffalo. many other great points of view as well. My coment comes with the ballistic tank that researchers fire a round into to examine the round and match to a certain barrel on a certain firearm. If the water jug test is a key indication of shock wave why when a high powered round is shot into the ballistic tank (point blank) does it not explode? A shock wave of a huge exploision has no limits and levels everything in its path, correct? If bullets created these massive shockwaves the tank to then would explode?? No? Anyone see mythbusters when the they did the tests of shooting into a pool? Ok not as scientific as a major universitiy study but visable slow motion footage of bullet behavior. Bullets either lost energy so rapidly they would not break skin after 12"-18" of travel in the water. They also tried a high powered super fast tactical rifle that was rendered completely usless as bullets completely fragmented on impact with the water. In the high speed footage they showed there was no destructive wave killing machine. The water simply absorbed the bullets energy fast enough to take the leathal energy away. thus confirming the op's opening post. My thoughts here are that the op's artical holds a lot of merit. The video that walking buffalo post does prove that rappid expanding bullets and velocity can spread the damage, but I do not agree that this is a shock wave. It is merely a case of bug meets windshield. Great post here guys, anytime highly regarded scientist's argue a point there has to be merit for us gun toting rednecks to disagree!:argue2::thinking-006::love0025:
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209 where is all of your facts on this as you keep telling us that it is not energy transfer? I have had this same arguement with alot of people and you are wrong.... ENERGY DOES KILL. Extra holes are needed do to bullets that dont transfer energy such as #%!*@^ Bullets.Sorry chuck Holes kill but energy transfer in the holes kill alot better.:)
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wow long read some interesting thoughts. I must say I am glad felt recoil on my rifle is about 70lbs over the couple thousand ft lbs delivered by the bullet in those first few hundred yards.
I understand the seat belt analogy but the energy is absorbed over a large area and is not transfered to a pin point location. Yet the energy in and of it`s self is not likely to kill it certainly will knock an animal down then if the blood loss, organ damage is adequate it is unlikely that the animal will get up. Getting tagged while wearing body armor with a 9mm certainly would not be anything like a magnum rifle even if the body armor did prevent penetration. |
Dr Martin Fackler battlefield surgeon and one of the worlds renowned wounding experts stated in 1987, "It is difficult to be optimistic for the future when these weapons developers still use the scientifically discredited "kinetic energy deposit" method to estimate wounding effects." In his book Bullet Penetration Duncan MacPherson, shows that bullets inflict damage by stress, not energy. When the stress or force of a bullets passage exceed the elastic limits of the flesh it is damaged. Large temporary wound channels produced by kinetic energy is wasted as the flesh returns to its original state.
One last time, energy doesn’t kill, by its very definition it is the force available to allow the bullet to do its work of expanding and penetrating, crushing flesh beyound its limit to rebound. |
Does the energy itself kill?Not likely,but then again ,bullets that create a permanent wound channel with a larger volume normally transfer more energy to the target,which usually results in quicker kills.
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An exceptional example, if you are a believer of Roy Weatherby's Hydroscopic shockwave school of thought the energy released would incapacitate you. In actual fact this hand in the water test wouldn't be a fair test as your hand isn't 100% water and even though the temporary wound channel in the water would move much faster than it could in the hand it still would do nothing to the hand or the person's cns.
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Explain that one please? What does the energy transfer do to kill better? |
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For awhile, it appeared as though this thread would remain constructive and I was tempted to join the discussion. Unfortunately, once the drive to be correct surpassed some posters' intellectual capabilities, insults arose and productive dialogue ceased. Everyone's loss.
Bobby B. |
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Do you have your answer yet as to why energy transfer (ET) is not the cause of death? If not, how about you tell us how ET kills. As you are an experienced and very successful rifle and archery hunter, I look forward to your explanation. |
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It is a combination of of bullet and shockwave damage in the permanent wound channel that is facilitated by the total enegy release of the bullet. Can I get away with this one, 209? |
OK here's what I don't get. Someone here states his beliefs on a subject. Someone else disagrees and asks for proof. That's what this board is all about. Personally I would try to find my own proof and post that but whatever. Person #1 provides the proof that person #2 asks for. A couple of times actually. Now person #2 doesn't like that proof so is asking for more or different proof. To top it all off somebody else throws in comments that are so not even remotely close to comparable it is laughable at best. This has been a good read. Lets keep it going.
Also guys, its OK to be informed and change an opinion or modify that opinion if there is evidence to support it. If someone can provide enough evidence, I'll be man enough to say I was wrong. Clakjp. So does an FMJ not have any energy? One would assume that a pill of same diameter (say .308), weight (say 165) and speed (say 2850 fps) would have the same energy when it strikes the animal regardless of the bullet construction. If this hydrostatic wave theory is true, the FMJ should start a wave and destroy as much as the standard hunting bullet. Since it doesn't, then we are back to the idea of a temporary wound cavity bouncing back and the opening bullet simply destroying more tissues as it blows on thru. At least that's the way I see it. I shoot a .257 Roberts and a 7MM Rem mag. The 7 is pushing 140 grain pills at 3200 fps. The 1/4 bore is pushing 100 grain pills at 3000ish fps. The 7 obviously has way more energy and in theory a bigger shock wave. Why is it that almost all of the deer I shoot with the bigger gun go farther than the little gun? Almost every deer shot with that .257 Roberts dies instantly. Bang flop! The deer shot with the 7 never go far, usually less than 40 yards, but they are rarely bang flops. There's one to ponder for you. Yes shot placement is the same for me. I always aim for the lung area. |
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Also would the fish die easier if you used a milk jug over a zippy bag? Interesting stuff. |
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Don't let a couple of crude posts interfere with an educational thread. Please join in with your comments. DK |
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the reason a cop doesnt die when taking a hit to his bullet proof vest is the vest spreads the pressures out so much that it only bruises the area. Low pressure over a large area...... Large pressure over a small area is why bean bag guns kill. |
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