Calling who retarded? I think you might be dyslexic. I called people who illegally introduce non native species retarded, not you. Sorry but I can care less about your personal problems.

I see now that you have no conclusive comebacks to support your BS theories and opinions.....because that's what they truly are. The point is, it's been done, it failed. We have proof that it failed on more than one occasion in different parts of the province. All you have is your opinions. So the sooner you see through your own BS is the sooner this dumb debate is over. That's why I said to lock it, it's pointless. Congratulations, you've successfully turned this into an argument between you and myself because you lack the proper reading and social capabilities to converse like an adult. I made my point clear enough already, I'm happy it only took me a few posts, and I only had to subject myself to a fraction of your pointless argument. Have a nice day horsetrader, I look forward to hitting the ignore button.

a bit off topic but relevant,, the other night on the news they were talking about the giant pet store Petsco that got flooded in NY State... so I get it that puppies drowned but what about all the exotic fish and amphibians, where did they go?

Well read again sir I did not say you called me retarded I said you did not have the right to call ANYONE retarded. But you did call dyslexic today but thats ok I just conciser where it comes from. And your right what I'm talking about is my opinion, In my opinion a put and take bass fishery can work what you are talking about i have NO idea.

your post: If the bass can even survive our winters, I think it would be a bad idea. Like perch, people would bucket them into lakes and rivers where they shouldn't be. And they're a predator species, It wouldn't be hard for them to compete with pike. I think it would be a good idea though to stock them into lakes that were illegally stocked with perch. They'd clear up that problem pretty well I think.
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So what is your choice............:thinking-006:

your post: The only species of fish that aren't native are brown, brook, and most rainbow populations.
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HMMMMMMMMM I knew there was 11 and Sheephunter came up with 14


your post:Look, this is rediculous. They stocked the rivers with brown and rainbows and they survived and were able to breed. They stocked many lakes with bass and NONE of their populations survived except for maybe island lake, and a small population if any at all. They've tried it, it failed. What more do you guys want? If you want to fish for bass, either move to a different province or take a trip. Alot determines whether a population of fish can survive in a body of water. You can't just throw things in a water body and expect them to survive. Do you even know what water alkalinity is?
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As far as the bow 99% of the waters they stock them it they DO NOT spawn.

As far as them trying it and it failing your mistaken they did not try put and take with bass and as I had said that is what i was talking about.

Yes I do know what water alkalinity is but it had nothing to do with any problem with Bass the problem is temp and oxygen.

And now your final statement that i turn it in to a personal argument no that can't be true for me to have a personal argument i would have to be concerned with what the other person says and in your case I could care less.
It is your option to hit the ignore button but I doubt that you will you don't seem to be able to commit. But as you said this is just my opinion

good post STEELHEAD :love0025:

That pretty much ended the discussion for me , it's pretty much bang on. I've always wondered why others who know so little about bass have these terrible visions of what a largemouth would do in a river that can't break 50 degrees all summer ? Bass can't spawn if the water doesn't reach above 65 F.


The rationale behind the naysayers is strange .... Mostly miss informed , because I have fished and invested many many fishing hours and research on these fish back home fishing many events with the csfl and I can tell you cold water doesn't jive with bass . Whatever lake in Alberta that could actually support them would be a miracle but very rare like island lake . and really would be on alot of anglers fish list.

We need to embrace this fish not manufacture ridiculous stories and theories based on an failed experiment in the 80s. And no sorry comparing bass to any other species like perch is also bogus , perch spawn vastly different even in frequency and eggs and is a menace to other fishs spawn.

These don't need to be proven, these are facts and if you fish east coast you can ask about any angler and they will tell you the same

I wonder what ichthyologists would say?

I wonder how you could be up at 1:00 am pouncing on the first post in a short while with some bs proposition like that...

AVB3 posted......


.........Quote:
Originally Posted by steelhead
The 2 provinces have vastly differing climates. And that is a huge reason why bass would never harm trout streams and habitat in this province.

Seeing your so *sure* of this, then you must have some peer reviewed studies which indicate the same. Or at least ONE, right?




If you didnt know BC and Alberta had differing climates, something every canadian should have learned in grade 8, then you dont belong in this discussion.


As for info, look as hard as you can for "Bass invading high mountain streams in Canada" Look real hard and tell me what you find. And if you do find something, find out what climate the area is in. Makes a difference, believe me.


The Bow river has Pike and perch. Any reports of Pike or perch being caught in say, the highwood above longview? Threepoint creek? The sheep river? And pike are a river fish on the cusp of cold and cool water species. What gives there? Especially those destructive perch. They ruin trout potholes, but not the streams. Interesting.






Sheephunter wrote..........



........... It seems to me that if forage is truly an issue that there would be far better and more economical choices to stock than bass but I could be wrong.


Since you know Pigeon more than the rest of us, are you gonna tell me that all those skinny walleyes are from a disease? Methinks they are starving. Pine coulee, Pine lake, Lac lanonne, Long Lake, and the list goes on of skinny walleye lakes. Walleye eating shrimp and whitefish gorging on spotails. Yes, theres a forage issue in many lakes, for sure. The more forage species the better.


As for billions of studies, well, Google is your friend!

Start your search in the eastern provinces. Find a lake with largemouth in it and read the studies. largemouth are all introduced in the east in all lakes.

You may also want to familiarize yourselves with the definitions of cold, cool, and warm water fishes and the temperatures they tolerate.


And all through that, keep in mind Alberta waters are 3 degrees cooler than every other province in Canada on average. You can google river flow charts and temp data from evey province as its all available on the internet. Compare the temps for each province and average it and compare it to alberta. Just like I did when i went to school, only i had to go to the library and reques info from government sources.

Once you have done that, maybee you will think twice about your trains of thought.


Sheep also added......

..... I know I've read loads of information on the dangers of smallmouth bass specifically entering waters where trout exist. It seems smallmouth are quite comfortable in cooler waters where trout exist. Not sure why this would be different in Alberta.

Most of that information is based on potholes and stocked lakes. The issue has never come up with Bass invading high trout streams as it hasnt happened yet, EXCEPT, where the climate plays host to perfect conditions where bass thrive ie. Vancouver Island, Where its a rainforset blah blah blah.

Different climates and the Elk river example. The area of the Elk river drainage is very simular to Alberta streams, cold water flowing into cool waters. No Bass. excellent example.


STEELHEAD

LOL, I just remembered this from school. The prof used this as an example about bass and the difference between warm and cold water fishes exploring out of thier temp ranges.



Bass is like taking someone from Guatamala, where people go hypothermic at +7 degrees in temp, and dropping him off in Inuvik in the winter. You'd be damned sure, if he made it out of there alive, with his gonads still operational, you can bet he'll never come back.


He was funny lookin, thats why that stuck.


STEELHEAD

Just because they are thriving here doesnt mean they are native. I have a book at home that tells when what fish was introduced, in what drainage basin, what water bodies and when.
ya, they experimented a lot in the national parks with some very strange and exotic species of fish. I think they need to put some grass carp in Muir. that place is over growing with weeds.

Here is what i found on the 'net and it lists everything. Everyone can read it and see what was i troduced and what is native.

http://www.whyte.org/time/riveroflife/fishmgmt.pdf

dude!!!!! you just proved yourself wrong.... lol!!!!!!

Perhaps you misunderstood my question. I was asking for studies on lakes with populations of pike, perch and walleye where bass populations did not previously exist and I was speaking of smallmouth. They are far more tolerant of cold water than largemouth. If there are 200-300 million studies out there, you think one would have popped up on Google. If you could point me to one or two of those billions I'd be very appreciative. All that Google keeps spitting out at me is studies that indicate how stocked smallmouth negatively effect trout populations. Perhaps they can venture into colder water than you believe?

Largemouth perhaps...smallmouth not so much. I think you skipped a couple days of school.

I'm pretty aware of what native means xtreme...your original comment was out to lunch. See the list of non-native fish posted above.

Fish like walleye and pike and cutthroat are most definitely native to Alberta. Even your link says that. There are definitely way more native than non-native game fish in Alberta.

Hmmmmm perhaps it would give more validity to your post if you actually gave a reference to a Ichthyologists that disputed mszomola post other words its just a big word.......:sign0161:

Actually the majority of studies I looked at were in rivers and many of those rivers with temperatures similar to those found in Alberta's foothills. Just type "Effects of stocked smallmouth on trout in rivers" into Google. While there aren't billions of studies, a few fairly comprehensive ones do pop up.

We all know that they introduced smallmouths into some lakes in Alberta but i've yet to find an article showing any negative effects on native. Perhaps i'm missing it some place if you know of any article could you possibly post a link. I have sent e-mails to SRD and my wild alberta and have received nothing other than an acknowledgment of my e-mail. any incite you could give would be appreciated.

just google ecosystem dynamics.

Sheephunter wrote........



.........Largemouth perhaps...smallmouth not so much. I think you skipped a couple days of school.



* Smallmouths have the same tolerances as walleye*. I learned that in school and theres charts online to show that. Its basic knowledge of the fishing world and taught in first year.


Remember I mentioned the imajinary line in the rivers where you dont see walleyes and goldeyes and just see trout and whitefish?


Now, dont skip this question like you usually do to avoid answering when you find yourself wrong. here it is....

....... Have you ever caught a perch or a pike anywhere in the highwood river system? Have you heard of ANYONE catching pike or perch in that system?

If those species are not up there, then neither will bass.


Ever iced fished Bass, and not just once or twice, I mean ALOT? Guess what, its almost impossible to catch either smallmouths or largemouths while ice fishing. They tend to be incedental catches. What do bass do when its too cold for them? They go right to the bottom and hide in the mud or lay dormant and not feed. They cant take the cold. Pike and walleyes still move, but bass of both species go dormant.

Where do walleyes and goldeyes go in the winter? Well, because they cant take the cold of our frozen rivers, they head to Diefenbaker to winter. Years of ice fishing the rivers in the south in the deep winter, I have never caught a single walleye or goldeye, anyone else? Pike, yes, burbot , yes, Whitefish, yes, but never goldeyes or walleyes.



I think you are missing something entirely and to argue it, well, I see someone skipped school and never even signed up. Its ok to still learn something. Everything I mentioned is basic education. Its in the fishermans bible. Pick one up.


STEELHEAD

Sorry I don't know of one, positive or negative. Not sure what follow up was done but please keep us informed if you hear anything.

Walleye, pike and trout are commonly found in the same stretches of numerous Alberta rivers, even the Bow. Perhaps it's you that is missing something entirely? I think your imaginary line exists only in your imagination.

As for smallmouth hiding in the mud in the winter.....I think you a reading the wrong bible. Largemouth do get pretty lethargic though.

Thanks for the reply will do

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/d...ermoclines.jpg





I see you still dont get it. And its getting sillyer everytime. Its obvious you know nothing of Bass, and fishing them once or twice in BC and a bit in Ontario for a couple of days just doesnt cut it. So heres a visual aid.


As the chart shows, the temperature difference between smallmouths and the first trout on the list have close to a 8 degree temp difference. Smallmouths are a degree warmer than walleyes.

Thats kinda huge and important, no?


Even perch are 4 degrees warmer than the first trout on the list. One reason why you will never see them invade higher colder trout bearing streams. They have been in the bow for decades and havent reaped the horrors of decimating and outcompeteing high mountain trout. Unless the global temp raises 5 degrees, we will never see them invade.






As for the imaginary line, well, if you dont see it, You have to get river fishing more.


STEELHEAD



For other anglers...... Read and know this chart and get a thermometer. It contains secrets that will unlock a whole new world of fishing and its information has been the basis of anglers, both commercial and recreational, since humanity has been angling for fish.

Why? because it works.

You posted:

To which I replied:

And you came back with:

Which means you missed the point entirely, which I now have outline in bold up above.

So, please direct us to a peer reviewed study which supports your contention.

AVB3


And I replied.......



............. Go online and search everywhere! High and low.

Do your best to find any, and I mean ANY, information about bass or, even perch invading foothills and high mountain streams in Alberta or BC. The key term, "foothills and high mountain streams"

I dare you to look and report your findings.


The lack of information prooves my point.


STEELHEAD

There are smallmouth bass in Northern b.c and water is very cold there as well, bass could probably adapt in Alberta though.

Nothing on there about Alberta Bass introduction just refers back to My Wild Alberta

i agree that the foothills and mountians are safe, its the rest of the province that im concerned with. this isnt just about trout, its the competition with other species should bass take hold and be self sustaining that concerns me. in a fertile system i think it may be safe. in a more fragile system, bass may push out native populations of fish by eating the limited amount of prey species. competition in an already tight food chain may throw everything out of whack.

thats because theres no such thing as ALBERTA BASS.......

Best Guide wrote......


.........There are smallmouth bass in Northern b.c and water is very cold there as well, bass could probably adapt in Alberta though.



Are they in a lake, or a river? Big difference.


Lakes hold warmth in thier depths. Rivers come from snowmelt/glaciers, and frozen mountains and never have a constant temp like a deep lake basin.


They would adapt just fine in Alberta. Not in the rivers, except the lower, larger ones. Lakes and potholes, yes, you bet they would. If Walleyes are there, then bass would be right at home.


STEELHEAD