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-   -   Sheep on a Draw? (http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=49184)

buddyhunter 01-04-2010 12:25 PM

Sheep on a Draw?
 
I have heard that they are seriously considering putting trophy sheep on a draw, they think that this will help curb the amount of short rams being killed. Has anyone else heard anything similar to this??

BigRackLover 01-04-2010 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buddyhunter (Post 472429)
I have heard that they are seriously considering putting trophy sheep on a draw, they think that this will help curb the amount of short rams being killed. Has anyone else heard anything similar to this??

Haven't heard that.

Perhaps a requirement to complete another sheep course would be more success full in curbing the amount of short rams being killed.

Putting them on draw won't solve the root problem IMO.

WhiteyChaser 01-04-2010 01:17 PM

trophy sheep on draw
 
i've heard rumours, but i think thats all it is at this point, it would defintely increase the trophy quality of alberta's sheep population, province wide and if all zones went on draw it would give the average joe a higher chance at killing a book ram in a few years, as more zones are open to draw not everyone will be applying for the same few zones that keep producing year after year. at least in theory anywho it would get my vote if it counts for much

Pathfinder76 01-04-2010 01:19 PM

Those rumors are becoming closer to a reality

sheephunter 01-04-2010 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buddyhunter (Post 472429)
I have heard that they are seriously considering putting trophy sheep on a draw, they think that this will help curb the amount of short rams being killed. Has anyone else heard anything similar to this??

This one of those rumours that seems to surface every year at this time.

buddyhunter 01-04-2010 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteyChaser (Post 472455)
i've heard rumours, but i think thats all it is at this point, it would defintely increase the trophy quality of alberta's sheep population, province wide and if all zones went on draw it would give the average joe a higher chance at killing a book ram in a few years, as more zones are open to draw not everyone will be applying for the same few zones that keep producing year after year. at least in theory anywho it would get my vote if it counts for much

i really hope they don't go to draw and i disagree that it would give the average joe hunter a chance at a book ram every few years. if anything it will hinder your chances at getting a ram.

sheepguide 01-04-2010 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buddyhunter (Post 472490)
i really hope they don't go to draw and i disagree that it would give the average joe hunter a chance at a book ram every few years. if anything it will hinder your chances at getting a ram.

Would all depend on the number of tags issued. But quality should go up. I wouldnt mind putting in for a few years to hunt more big rams but really dont want it to be where you have to put in for 10yrs to get a tag.
SG

buckbrushoutdoors 01-04-2010 02:15 PM

i would like to see sheep go to age rather than just size, there would be alot more mature rams, then we could start killing those old broomed rams
just my 2 cents:)

buddyhunter 01-04-2010 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide (Post 472499)
Would all depend on the number of tags issued. But quality should go up. I wouldnt mind putting in for a few years to hunt more big rams but really dont want it to be where you have to put in for 10yrs to get a tag.
SG

that is the problem though, for the quality to go up they have to issue a minimal amount of tags therefore increasing wait time.

sheephunter 01-04-2010 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buckbrushoutdoors (Post 472505)
i would like to see sheep go to age rather than just size, there would be alot more mature rams, then we could start killing those old broomed rams
just my 2 cents:)

A good idea if it were possible to accurately field-age bighorn but it's not...heck, you can't even get two F&W officers to agree on the age of a dead one. It's pretty simple with thinhorns but impossible with bighorns.

Rackmastr 01-04-2010 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter (Post 472514)
A good idea if it were possible to accurately field-age bighorn but it's not...heck, you can't even get two F&W officers to agree on the age of a dead one. It's pretty simple with thinhorns but impossible with bighorns.

x2...I'd love to start harvesting some of the bigger broomed rams, but bighorns can sure be tough to age properly in the field. Stones and Dalls are quite simple, but bighorns get a lot tougher, especially the older they get...

sheepguide 01-04-2010 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter (Post 472514)
A good idea if it were possible to accurately field-age bighorn but it's not...heck, you can't even get two F&W officers to agree on the age of a dead one. It's pretty simple with thinhorns but impossible with bighorns.

It is tougher but is possible to age a bighorn(as we have argued about b4).
And there arent very many F&W officers that have seen a bighorn in the wild let alone understanding up from down about judging them. They have lost this issue in court due to their lack of experiance in measuring rams.(a person I know just went through this and won, the ram was legal by 3/4 of an inch).
SG

sheepguide 01-04-2010 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rackmastr (Post 472516)
x2...I'd love to start harvesting some of the bigger broomed rams, but bighorns can sure be tough to age properly in the field. Stones and Dalls are quite simple, but bighorns get a lot tougher, especially the older they get...

No ram is simple to judge. Sure some are but alot of things even on thinhorns makes it tough to judge them. Shadows, heat waves, false rings, weather, angle, etc.

sheephunter 01-04-2010 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide (Post 472521)
It is tougher but is possible to age a bighorn(as we have argued about b4).
And there arent very many F&W officers that have seen a bighorn in the wild let alone understanding up from down about judging them. They have lost this issue in court due to their lack of experiance in measuring rams.(a person I know just went through this and won, the ram was legal by 3/4 of an inch).
SG

Considering there isn't a jurisdiction in North America that allow bighorns to be shot on age, I think that says something. Growth rings, especially on southern Alberta rams can be very indistinct.....definitely not obvious enough to determine legality at a distance through a spotting scope.

Okotokian 01-04-2010 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide (Post 472521)
It is tougher but is possible to age a bighorn(as we have argued about b4).

At 300 yards? How would you do that accurately? At least as accurately as judging whether the ram is full curl or not? I'm not arguing with you, I just have no idea how one would do it accurately.

sheepguide 01-04-2010 02:42 PM

With a spotting scope!

hwy_6363 01-04-2010 02:42 PM

I honestly don't think there are enough rams taken by hunters in a season to warrant trophy sheep tags going to a draw (in WMU's where there is currently a general season). Wolves, bears, cougars, and loss of habitat take a far greater toll on the sheep than any hunting pressure could do.

sheepguide 01-04-2010 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hwy_6363 (Post 472541)
I honestly don't think there are enough rams taken by hunters in a season to warrant trophy sheep tags going to a draw (in WMU's where there is currently a general season). Wolves, bears, cougars, and loss of habitat take a far greater toll on the sheep than any hunting pressure could do.

Im in agreement on this. A buddy was hunting two cats a few days ago and they were hanging right with the sheep. And during the cougar study done recently one cat was collared south west of rocky and it ate I beleive it was 5 sheep in a couple weeks. And a couple of those were legal rams!

If you want to stop the shooting of short rams I say increase the penalty!
Bigger fines, be unable to hunt bighorn again, etc.
SG

sheephunter 01-04-2010 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide (Post 472546)
Im in agreement on this. A buddy was hunting two cats a few days ago and they were hanging right with the sheep. And during the cougar study done recently one cat was collared south west of rocky and it ate I beleive it was 5 sheep in a couple weeks. And a couple of those were legal rams!

If you want to stop the shooting of short rams I say increase the penalty!
Bigger fines, be unable to hunt bighorn again, etc.
SG

In some of the studies they did in the Sheep River area, cats were very prey specific with one male actually targeting moose pretty well exclusively. From what I remember, it was as cats got older that they actually switched to sheep on winter range. I also seem to remember that it was females that accounted for the most sheep kills. They can kill an awful lot of sheep....especially a female with kittens. As most hunters target toms, it's unlikely that a lot of the sheep killers are actually getting taken out of the population, even where they are hunted.

SG, have you got a number of how many short rams are shot in a year? I can't imagine it's that many but I could be out to lunch.

LongDraw 01-04-2010 03:00 PM

If sheep (and all other draws IMO) goes on draw you should have to actually purchase the tag if you get drawn, should be automatic.

Lots of people would suddenly become a sheep hunter once it was on draw.

I would think that some areas/zones would get more pressure if put on draw.

Before sheep goes on draw how about getting OHV's out of the sheep zones? Seems like a logical first step to me if in fact there is a problem with too many young rams getting killed

If someone draws a tag that could potentially take numerous years to get I would think they would be less apt to pass on 5.5yr old/ just legal rams?

I am real curious about the number of short rams killed as well. I have never heard it being brought up as a big issue?

sheepguide 01-04-2010 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LongDraw (Post 472561)
If sheep (and all other draws IMO) goes on draw you should have to actually purchase the tag if you get drawn, should be automatic.

Lots of people would suddenly become a sheep hunter once it was on draw.

I would think that some areas/zones would get more pressure if put on draw.

Before sheep goes on draw how about getting OHV's out of the sheep zones? Seems like a logical first step to me if in fact their is a problem with too many young rams getting killed

If someone draws a tag that could potentially take numerous years to get I would think they would be less apt to pass on 5.5yr old/ just legal rams?

How would closing atv use stop young rams being killed?
There arent many atv zones left and there are some people that thats the only way they can go!

And with the zones getting more pressure issue all they have to do is put the draw zone specific and control the number of tags in each zone.

And there is nothing wrong with the shooting of a 5 1/2 year old ram if thats what they want but if a few more rams survive to reach 8 or 9 alot of guys would wait to shoot an older ram.
SG

nube 01-04-2010 03:11 PM

Sheep don't need to be on a draw right now. Maybe some areas are having troubles but the majority of them are doing well.
I don't mind if they do put it on draw as long as wait times are not huge. Why not draw for an area and let the tag holder shoot whatever size of ram he wants?

buckbrushoutdoors 01-04-2010 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter (Post 472554)
In some of the studies they did in the Sheep River area, cats were very prey specific with one male actually targeting moose pretty well exclusively. From what I remember, it was as cats got older that they actually switched to sheep on winter range. I also seem to remember that it was females that accounted for the most sheep kills. They can kill an awful lot of sheep....especially a female with kittens. As most hunters target toms, it's unlikely that a lot of the sheep killers are actually getting taken out of the population, even where they are hunted.

SG, have you got a number of how many short rams are shot in a year? I can't imagine it's that many but I could be out to lunch.

i have always wondered about how many rams are shot every that dont make the 3/4, i really hope that not many do!

bowcanyonranch 01-04-2010 04:21 PM

I dont think the draw would be very helpful and i really do like hunting sheep each year, but that being said i do agree that there is a need for change, there are too many young rams bing killed. I know one guy thats killed 7 sheep with the biggest going maybe 160. They should limite the number of rams killed in a life time, maybe 3 or 4. This would mostlikly decrease the number of rams killed and improve the trophy quality. This way you can kill your squeaker to start and then kill two or three hogs if you ever see one.

sheepguide 01-04-2010 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter (Post 472554)
In some of the studies they did in the Sheep River area, cats were very prey specific with one male actually targeting moose pretty well exclusively. From what I remember, it was as cats got older that they actually switched to sheep on winter range. I also seem to remember that it was females that accounted for the most sheep kills. They can kill an awful lot of sheep....especially a female with kittens. As most hunters target toms, it's unlikely that a lot of the sheep killers are actually getting taken out of the population, even where they are hunted.

SG, have you got a number of how many short rams are shot in a year? I can't imagine it's that many but I could be out to lunch.

I dont have any numbers but really have to agree that it cant be that high of a number! Im sure there are a couple left on the mountain every year and im sure a few turned in that are small but still think a small amount.

The cougar sheep kills that ive herd of are from the guy that chased alot of the cats that were collared and he and the biologists figured sheep were high up on the cougars menu. The also think that it may be the cause of the decreased herd at Ram Mountain west of Rocky. That is part of the reason the sheep foundation helped fund the collaring. There had to be so many cats collared in sheep country so the affects of cats on the sheep population will be better known.

SG

Thickhorn 01-04-2010 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LongDraw (Post 472561)
Before sheep goes on draw how about getting OHV's out of the sheep zones? Seems like a logical first step to me if in fact there is a problem with too many young rams getting killed

X2 - definitely an important first step

sheepguide 01-04-2010 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thickhorn (Post 472638)
X2 - definitely an important first step

So you think stopping the OHV use is gunna help?

How will this help in the 80%+ of bighorn areas that are already closed to OHV.

A sheep hunter is a sheep hunter no matter if he walks, rides horses, or uses an OHV. Everyone has just as much right to be out there as the next guy!

catnthehat 01-04-2010 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide (Post 472521)
It is tougher but is possible to age a bighorn(as we have argued about b4).
And there arent very many F&W officers that have seen a bighorn in the wild let alone understanding up from down about judging them. They have lost this issue in court due to their lack of experiance in measuring rams.(a person I know just went through this and won, the ram was legal by 3/4 of an inch).
SG

Now that would just SUCK!!:cool:
I'm wondering what the outcome will be for the F&W officer?
Likely.... ZIP!:mad:
meanwhile, the poor bugger who has been accused of shooting an illiegal ramm has to go through all that crap.:mad:
Cat

sheepguide 01-04-2010 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catnthehat (Post 472646)
Now that would just SUCK!!:cool:
I'm wondering what the outcome will be for the F&W officer?
Likely.... ZIP!:mad:
meanwhile, the poor bugger who has been accused of shooting an illiegal ramm has to go through all that crap.:mad:
Cat

The deciding factor on the trial was the officers experiance and the number of rams he had checked.

podman 01-04-2010 05:20 PM

If age were the rule how old would the rams need to be?


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