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-   -   Canadian Forces looking to replace Browning HiPower (http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=312271)

rugatika 01-11-2017 10:43 PM

Canadian Forces looking to replace Browning HiPower
 
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...other-10-years
Quote:

The Canadian military is looking to replace its Second World War-era handguns but it could take up to 10 years for all of the new pistols to be distributed to the troops.

Replacing the 1940s-era Browning handguns has been on the Department of National Defence’s procurement list for years.

But now the purchase of new guns appears to be moving ahead.

Still the Canadian Forces figures if the purchase is approved – and there are no delays – it won’t have all the new pistols in hand and being used until 2026.

The military plans to conduct a survey later this year to determine what the role of handguns might be in the future Canadian Forces.


Last year army procurement officers briefed industry representatives about their quest for a new pistol. Industry officials were told that between 15,000 and 25,000 handguns are needed and the military estimated the project would cost around $50 million, according to documents recently obtained by the Ottawa Citizen.
Any suggestions?

Glock 21?
Another 9mm?
Sig?

10 years to pick out a gun and distribute them. Seems real efficient. They must have the government involved somehow. :sHa_sarcasticlol:


$50,000,000. That's around $2000 a gun supposedly including spare parts etc. I think they should use me as a middle man...looks like there's some extra juice in the orange.

thirty-30 01-11-2017 11:37 PM

Sig
 
P226 all the way.

CaberTosser 01-12-2017 12:13 AM

I believe JTF2 is already packing the Sig 226, just order more.

hilt134 01-12-2017 01:12 AM

I think the beretta brigadier looks solid as all get out. I dont really care what they use as long as it is what they are comfortable with and fits what they need personally. Spend the money to get what they want. And ten years is a tad pathetic if they know it needs to replaced just get it done not dragged out like a municiple road repair.

sikwhiskey 01-12-2017 03:45 AM

Hk pl30.....and since its govt contract, hk mr308 for the same coast as they would pay for just one colt pistol..............with lifetime waranty and service and free ice cream......

sharp_85 01-12-2017 07:02 AM

In my opinion they should definitely look at another 9mm. It will save a lot of headaches and unnecessary wasted time and money that would be cause by changing to a new calibre. I'd love to see P226's become standard issue but I'd even settle for just getting brand new Hi-Powers.

My favourite quote from the whole article: "Industry representatives have privately questioned why Canada would take so long to buy a new pistol, noting that the process could be completed in about a year or two at most."

It really highlights the underlying problem. The fact that the procurement system for the Canadian Forces is completely and utterly broken. The system needs to be scrapped and redone from the ground up so we can replace equipment needed in a timely manner, and no I don't consider 10-20 years a timely manner.

Dubious 01-12-2017 07:55 AM

The military police already pack glocks as well. The browning hipower is a pretty bad pistol the magazines where prone to getting dust inside and jamming the spring making the rounds all fall out if you flip the mag upside down after you loaded the first round. Not everyone gets a pistol and the primary weapon is the c7 or c8 for the armoured guys. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for the role of these new pistols there army many benefits to a pistol over the c7 other than walking to the mess hall and having to be armed.

Jack Hardin 01-12-2017 08:23 AM

I Carried the old Browning for a few years as an AFP/MP. We were only allowed 10 rds in the mag....to save the mag spring, they said. MP commissioned officers and SIU (now CFNIS) were issued the Colt Cobra in .38 spl. Female MPs were issued the S&W 5 shot Chiefs Special in .38 spl.

Not sure what MPs are using today.

recce43 01-12-2017 08:41 AM

They should have replaced them in early 90s.
The barrels used to rattle around in them so worn out

super7mag 01-12-2017 08:58 AM

Go with the beretta just like the boys down south.

3blade 01-12-2017 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by super7mag (Post 3440897)
Go with the beretta just like the boys down south.

That was a political favor and a poor decision as every single test at the time favored the sig.

However, for the current discussion, the sig is outdated itself. Stupid double action to single trigger idea that never should have got off the ground. If anyone is scared to carry a loaded gun, take up knitting.

Glock 19 is the the Americans current pick and would work well here. Say what you will about plastic, there's a good reason so many police forces and militaries use them. They work and almost everyone can shoot them well.

brendan's dad 01-12-2017 09:52 AM

It will be Glock

65% of all LE in North America use Glock
FBI just went to Glock
Several Specialize US military units have gone to Glock

They beat every other option in testing at 2/3 the cost. 34 total parts and they are so simple the Glock Armorer course is only 1 day(took it this past summer).

It will be Glock

Rockman 01-12-2017 09:58 AM

Many LE agencies in the States have had a $50/gun deal with Glock. Whenever the gun gets old, free trade-in for another new one. The used ones get sold to the public for much more than initial cost.

And regardless of that, $2k per gun and 10 years? I could put a deal together in a week that'd have them outfitted in a year or two at most and much lower cost. :sign0176:

brendan's dad 01-12-2017 10:56 AM

The 10 years would be the testing, procurement, and then roll out and conversion training. If they just accepted previous testing results from other organizations (FBI, Specialized forces, NYPD etc) then the time would be significantly reduced, but I doubt that will happen.

When the Mounties went from the 38 to the Smith it took 4 years to train approx. 15000 Members. It will take time to train all Armed Forces and complete the new COF. If they do accept the previous testing reports, I say still a minimum of 7 years for procurement, roll out and all employees trained.

CNP 01-12-2017 11:13 AM

Sig p225 if keeping with 9mm ammunition

Sig p226 if changing to another ammunition........say.40 S&W:)

Okotokian 01-12-2017 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rugatika (Post 3440787)
[
10 years to pick out a gun and distribute them. Seems real efficient. They must have the government involved somehow. :sHa_sarcasticlol:


$50,000,000. That's around $2000 a gun supposedly including spare parts etc. I think they should use me as a middle man...looks like there's some extra juice in the orange.

oh with the study and all that procurement time, plus a couple of program cancellations and restarts, the true cost per handgun will probably be $20,000 each.

Also, the story is a bit misleading. It cites the handgun as being "1940's era". I doubt soldiers are carrying around 70 year old firearms. I think that is when that model was first introduced. Heck, when was the 1911 first introduced ;) ???? Anything wrong with it?

ex811 01-12-2017 11:41 AM

Carried the Browning High Powered 9MM for my 20 year career as an MP. Awesome weapon that I Never had a problem with, just gotta give it some tender TLC every once in a while and you were good to go.

I'd say just purchase the newest version of the Browning in 9MM. It'll save a allot of monies in the long run and be uber effect for the troops that use them.

Selkirk 01-12-2017 12:08 PM

Canada's painfully slow military procurement process.
 
From the National Post article linked in the OP's first post ...
" ... Industry representatives have privately questioned why Canada would take so long to buy a new pistol, noting that the process could be completed in about a year or two at most ..."

We have too many government bureaucrats, afraid to make decisions in a timely manner ... constantly kicking the can down the road. :rolleye2:

Mac

Okotokian 01-12-2017 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacLeod (Post 3441021)
From the National Post article linked in the OP's first post ...
" ... Industry representatives have privately questioned why Canada would take so long to buy a new pistol, noting that the process could be completed in about a year or two at most ..."

We have too many government bureaucrats, afraid to make decisions in a timely manner ... constantly kicking the can down the road. :rolleye2:

Mac

They are taking into account the next election where the Leader of (fill in the blank) Party will promise to cancel the program.... and later reconsider. Then the next election will come and the Leader of (fill in the blank again) Party will.....

rugatika 01-12-2017 12:21 PM

Another great thing about glocks is their weight. I would imagine humping around all the weight soldiers do ounces start to matter. Especially a secondary weapon like a handgun.

Selkirk 01-12-2017 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okotokian (Post 3441028)

They are taking into account the next election where the Leader of (fill in the blank) Party will promise to cancel the program.... and later reconsider. Then the next election will come and the Leader of (fill in the blank again) Party will.....


Yes ... so true ^ !

And if they are estimating a 10 year process, in the end it will probably take 20 years. And in the meantime (to fill the gap), they will probably issue our troops slingshots from Walmart.

Mac

rugatika 01-12-2017 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacLeod (Post 3441044)
Yes ... so true ^ !

And if they are estimating a 10 year process, in the end it will probably take 20 years. And in the meantime (to fill the gap), they will probably issue our troops slingshots from Walmart.

Mac

Better penetration than a 9mm. :)

HunterDave 01-12-2017 01:26 PM

If it's the Liberals making the procurement I'll guess that they'll buy used sidearms at a discounted price that don't function correctly and spend 100's of millions of dollars refitting them so they function correctly. Think British subs.

CaberTosser 01-12-2017 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterDave (Post 3441085)
If it's the Liberals making the procurement I'll guess that they'll buy used sidearms at a discounted price that don't function correctly and spend 100's of millions of dollars refitting them so they function correctly. Think British subs.

Maybe they can get some surplus Tokarev's and get them repeatedly rebuilt, revised & improved until they are desert tan FN FNX .45's! (just have to keep an original pin or a piece of spring steel)

Mr Conservation 01-12-2017 03:19 PM

Procurement Process
 
For an interesting perspective on the lengthy procurement process the Canadian Forces have to go through, read retired General Rick Hillier's book "A Soldier First". It will give a good idea on why it takes so long to procure anything, let alone a new sidearm for the troops. Too many layers, too much politics, and too many people with their finger in the pie. :angry3:


Mr Conservation

Headdamage 01-12-2017 04:02 PM

Just buy new Hi-powers, nothing wrong with the design. I've used it for years.

Dick284 01-12-2017 06:03 PM

It will be in 9x19. That's the NATO standard.

This replacement has been in the works for sometime. I thought I read someplace that a Sig pistol was the intended replacement, but for the life of me I'm struggling to find any information now.

Selkirk 01-12-2017 06:03 PM

Rick Hillier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Conservation (Post 3441162)
For an interesting perspective on the lengthy procurement process the Canadian Forces have to go through, read retired General Rick Hillier's book "A Soldier First". It will give a good idea on why it takes so long to procure anything, let alone a new sidearm for the troops. Too many layers, too much politics, and too many people with their finger in the pie. :angry3:


Mr Conservation

I wish Hillier would run for leader of the Conservatives.

But I digress,

Mac

HalfBreed 01-12-2017 06:09 PM

I'd be surprised if it isn't the Sig considering it's already in use and the last pistol I was issued before retiring. I believe the MPs have them in use as well.

Mr Conservation 01-12-2017 11:41 PM

General Rick Hillier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MacLeod (Post 3441285)
I wish Hillier would run for leader of the Conservatives.
Mac

Me too !!

Mr. Conservation


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