Originally Posted by RZR (Post 3931152)

Life can be cruel, and for the record the majority of 3-4 yr. old rams are the one that do most of the breeding. The older rams spend more time trying to fend off other older rams and that is where the younger rams move in to do their thing.

Originally Posted by bdub (Post 3931225)

In a herd with a healthy age structure of rams this is false. It may be true when there is one or two squeaker 6 yr olds and a pile of young rams trying to service a bunch of ewes. Its screwed up and not healthy for the ram herd. Survival of those rams post rut is much poorer than it should be.

As for your dilema Charlie about the only solution is draw. Alot of guys couldn’t dtermine if a ram is 8 plus or not.

Originally Posted by medicmoose (Post 3931162)

A 6 year old ram has had plenty of time to breed. And his mortality rate greatly increases after that.
We use 4/5 as a measuring stick in place of an age rule. For the same reason you stated it’s harder to count rings on a bighorn, even harder to get a room of people to agree on those rings.
I feel you have an argument for full curl zones having old rams never getting past 4/5.
The best thing we can do to improve numbers of legal rams and trophy sheep is to give them the habitat to grow them.
Many areas are at carry capacity due to forest encroachment. With over feeding of areas and poorer food sources. Difficult access to water ram horn size doesn’t flourish.
Cadomin had great food and water and grew the world record.
Mossuri breaks has the same thing going on with food sources

Originally Posted by bdub (Post 3931225)

In a herd with a healthy age structure of rams this is false. It may be true when there is one or two squeaker 6 yr olds and a pile of young rams trying to service a bunch of ewes. Its screwed up and not healthy for the ram herd. Survival of those rams post rut is much poorer than it should be.

As for your dilema Charlie about the only solution is draw. Alot of guys couldn’t dtermine if a ram is 8 plus or not.

Originally Posted by buckbrush (Post 3931151)

I agree it's an issue and there are some bruiser rams broomed off that will die of old age before being legal.

I think if the rules changed to 8 years or 4/5 we would see many more sheep shot that are under age and not 4/5. My concern would be people mistaking false rings for true. There seems to be enough confusion over the simple length guidelines.

On the other hand with the current system we are basically selectively breeding for shorter horns on our rams.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo (Post 3931479)

Quite the conundrum.


Trophy hunters demand having old rams in the population.

And want regulation changes to allow the killing of these old rams.

Can you really have it both ways?

Maybe it is best to let it be. Let these senile old warriors retire without a bullet.


Hunting Bighorns by age has proven to be a failure.
BC tried and stopped the practice. Lets learn from their troubles.





Are you now saying that Geist is wrong?

As Giest and many others have documented, even in settings (National Parks) where there are significant numbers of Old rams, the youngsters sire a significant number of the young, typically around 50%.

This reminds me of the recent multi-year study of a band of sheep just north of Lake Minnewanka. Researchers wanted to prove that necessity of big old rams for breeding purposes. Well, an aggressive young little ram kicked butt! For several years he bred EVERY ewe! Totally negated the studies purpose. The researchers quite the project and tossed the data. :sHa_sarcasticlol:


Live fast/die fast. This is often true in nature. There is nothing wrong with it, in fact it typically is a positive influence towards successful evolution of the species.

One just has to look south to be reminded of what a young vigorous population of sheep acts and responds in conjunction with their environment.
Montana Breaks, or South Dakota, producing book rams at an astounding rate. These are YOUNG rams with huge horns.... It is extremely rare for a Breaks ram to reach ten years old.

As I mention over and over due to the kuiu kids not having a clue of Alberta's history of sheep management, what we see happening in the Breaks is in large part a result of management including a minimum 10% ewe harvest (hunting or live removal). Keep the herd Young, birthrates and individual health skyrockets, rams grow fast, and die fast.

Alberta's heyday for big rams was the 80's.
Better habitat, fewer predators, fewer Parks, and equally important, a 10% ewe harvest. More rams were born, grew to record book size quickly, were accessible to hunting.



Not only hunters have difficulty with aging a ram, but biologists too, which was proven and resulted in BC ending the practice of hunting Bighorns based on age.

------






Oh no you don't!

This is a lie propagated by anti-hunting advocates.
We (Coalition of Alberta hunting advocates and scientists) spent years of time and piles of cash proving this claim to be wrong.

Our current system DOES NOT cause genetic selection for shorter horned rams.

Originally Posted by medicmoose (Post 3931162)

The best thing we can do to improve numbers of legal rams and trophy sheep is to give them the habitat to grow them.
Many areas are at carry capacity due to forest encroachment. With over feeding of areas and poorer food sources. Difficult access to water ram horn size doesn’t flourish.
Cadomin had great food and water and grew the world record.
Mossuri breaks has the same thing going on with food sources

Originally Posted by Esox (Post 3931483)

You are forgetting one very large key factor in the sheep coming out of the breaks and south Dakota....that is feed. They have access to huge amounts of high quality hay and grain crops for feed as well as having great genetics. I could be wrong, but arent the original sheep transplanted to the breaks from Alberta? More specifically that cadomin area?

Originally Posted by walking buffalo (Post 3931496)

I'm not forgetting that, habitat and herd density go hand in hand.
Both are critical pieces of the puzzle.

But this doesn't explain why Breaks sheep typically only live to eight before dying of natural non predation or disease, hunting mortality....

The conclusion from many prominent retired and past biologists is that the management protocol of harvesting 10% of ewes every year influences the herd into a state of high fecundity. This results in high reproductive rates and large, fast growing rams. Just as high harvest of coyotes leads to even more coyotes...

Alberta used to follow this practice until the late eighties, when a new generation of biologists looking to make their mark just had to do things in a new way, prove to their elders that they were smarter.... fail.
Montana still uses this management technique... sure seems to work.

Let's remember that Cadomin sheep were historically just average in horn size until the mine was doctored for sheep forage and the herd size was low.
High herd density comprised of a large percentage of senile old rams and ewes led to lowered vitality and reproductive rates. Horn size and herd growth at Cadomin has crashed not only due to predation, but also from a long overdue reduction in individual vitality.


The Breaks sheep did not come from Alberta, they came from Gibson Lake, Montana.

Originally Posted by Esox (Post 3931502)

Ok good to know about the breaks sheep, I wasn't 100% sure on where they came from. They are definitely an interesting case study. I wonder if they are far more susceptible to disease there for some reason and that's one of the contributing factors to dieing young. I have heard (again not saying its true) that a lot of the rams from the breaks have maggots in their horns near the bases. I'd love to hunt them some day. One weekend this summer I want to go for a rip down there and see the breaks sheep for myself.

Originally Posted by charlie (Post 3931145)

I was out hunting this past fall and came across a band of 4 rams. 3 of which were 10+ years old. BUT in our regulations it states to be legal the ram must be 4/5ths curl. These 3 old boys were all broomed heavily and not quite 4/5ths curl. To me this doesent seem right. These rams will never be legal and will starve and freeze to death or get eaten by wolves or a cougar. I see 6-7 year old rams being harvested that have barely participated in the rut that are 4/5ths, but i cant harvest an old ram that will probably die the coming winter from age. I think there should be an age rule as well the 4/5th. BC has 8 years of age or full curl on their stones. I undertand the annuli on bighorns are harder to define than thinhorns, but think something still should be done. Any suggestions or thoughts regarding this?

Cheers.

Originally Posted by antlercarver (Post 3931914)

Old animals in any species proves that animal has the right genetics to keep the herd alive. If we select only young breeders, we doom that group to extinction
down the line.

Originally Posted by RZR (Post 3931916)

Not too many 3-4 yr. old rams make legal as these are the ones that do most of the breeding. I’m pretty sure you don’t have to worry about extinction from hunter harvest, maybe from predation or lose of habitat!

Originally Posted by antlercarver (Post 3931918)

Its not extinction from hunters but from lost of genetics. Animals in a area where they live on the edge have developed genetics to that area. Often transplanted animals do not succeed because they were not developed n that area. This shows how important genetics are for species that live on the edge of survival in harsh habitats.

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf (Post 3931317)

I am a older ram and my wife keeps telling me I am a little short as well, probably broomed!