The death of neck sizing.
 

Speedy Gonzales, on how it died. Start watching at 22:10.

https://youtu.be/1kUywg2OFUk

And the Birth of "S" type full length sizers.
More on FLS'ing vs. Neck sizing only.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaqg...4FlIw&index=45
Probably some thing to this.:)
Maybe a T-Shirt for a Visual aid.
https://www.bunkerbranding.com/produ...33994469605507

I rather liked this interview he did with Speedy about shooting at the Houston Warehouse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kUywg2OFUk

In regards to neck sizing, quote from Speedy himself at 29:49 "Actually, that's 1960's tech right there".
And the internet warriors will still argue that neck sizing is the only way to reload for accuracy. :sHa_sarcasticlol:

My experience with neck sizing took several guns from 1 moa to nearly 0.5 moa. At the time I was trying to resolve a con centricity problem I was having with RCBS and Redding FL dies.

No internet warrior here, just sharing my experience. I have no doubt, based on the reputation of these gentlemen that these type S dies are even better.

Is it possible that in the context of Hunting accuracy, 0.5 - 1.5 moa, might give different results from the context of BR shooters who strive for 1 hole groups? Honest question.

Full disclosure, I full length size after 3-4 firings to ensure I don't have any trouble chambering rounds in the field. The groups do open up a little after I full length size and the concentricity is not as good.

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Blend
 

I think what some may miss in these interviews is that the type S die full length sizes the body but a bushing sizes the neck. Its a blend. I dont think they would advocate using a typical Lee FL die.

I think what they are talking about is using a busing for accurate neck tension but still bumping the shoulders and body.

Panhandle precision does a good job of comparing the two

https://youtu.be/FMeXxE5ag6U

Ah. This makes more sense now.
Thank you.

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Listening to it right now. I quit just neck sizing several years ago. I've been doing a 2 step sizing process for awhile now. Lee collet die followed by a body die or FL bushing die with no bushing. Haven't tried a bushing in the die. For my 28 Nosler I'm using a forster FL with expander removed and a sinclair expanding mandrel because Lee doesn't make a collet, but they'd do a custom, I'm just not there yet. Been working well, very happy with the results I've been getting with the collet and body die.

At 2:50, it shot five 5-shot groups in the 'zeros', and repeated again. why in the real word, it shot so bad? seems that Mr. Virgil King hide some secrets here:thinking-006:

In real world conditions, temp., humidity, wind, etc. aren't controlled, like in an enclosed warehouse.
That's why Competitors, especially Long Range shooters develop loads in variable conditions, so they know what their loads will do, to certain extent.
Even short Range BR. for group ,have dozens of flags down range ,they wait for a certain condition then fire their Score rounds quickly in that window and they also use Bushing Full length sizing dies.:)

Not that there would be any noticeable difference for hunting loads, but it is worth mentioning that alot of these competitors who use the FL Bushing dies are also turning necks. If there is any difference in neck thickness, the bushing squeezes it to the inside where the bullet is seated. If you are not turning necks, a good option is a mandrel neck sizer/body die combo. The mandrel would push any inconsistencies to the outside of the neck.

Many are not turning necks anymore

I've been using a Lee collet neck die and a redding body die:)

Good quality brass is more available now than in past years, neck wall consistency as far as thickness is concerned has improved greatly, that's one reason why I think we're seeing a trend towards no turn necks lately.
Aside from the Group BR guys with 6 PPC's, but generally speaking.
I still use expander button dies with Hunting cartridges and get good results.

Agreed! And that's the thing.....A person can deep dive into all the intricacies and technicalities of reloading when in reality you can build very high quality hand loads with the most basic equipment and dies. Chasing another 1/4 moa gets very expensive and thought consuming.

Good Point
 

I think you raise a good point. In practical marksmanship most shooters are not able to benefit from an additional 1/2 or 1/4 MOA because there shooting technique is not at that level.

I was told spend more time shooting and learn the wind and develop proper trigger control if I wanted to shoot better.

I think we as shooters often major in the minors. We also often blame the tool instead of the operator. Shoot with someone who consistently shoots sub MOA try there firearm and see if you can produce the same results.

I also have 2 tight neck BR's that I neck turn for and only use Bushing FLS dies for them, I'm wringing out that last wee bit of accuracy.
I've got a new no turn neck 6 BRA that Henry called me to say he was building yesterday and was needing another detail or two on the build, even though it's technically a no turn neck chamber I will skim turn the necks anyway.
But I'm already set up to do this operation, may as well use the tools.
The tooling cost for neck turning out weighs the benefit for most practical hunting applications though, IMO.

I am a full blown LEE fan(not just because it is my name..)
Collet dies, and factory crimp die.
I get custom factory crimp dies for every cal that I own.
Even got one made for my 358 Norma Mag
I have found that for hunting rifles(and my bench guns) my consistency goes up when I do a factory crimp.
I know I know you can spend $300 on a set of dies, and I have, but never seamed to make any better ammo than I did with a set of Lee collet dies, and a factory crimp die.
My Remington 700 BDL Varmint in 223 shoots shocking small groups with this combo, and it is a factory gun, granted the BDL Varmints had a fantastic trigger and heavy barrel from the factory, but on a good day I can be .2's and I am certainly not the best bench shooter in the world.

I sure like the Lee collet dies as well. Depending on the bullet the crimp dies are pretty handy as well

And not worth it for a hunting rifle, but that is just my opinion, some disagree .
Cat

I totally agree.

And let's be honest, that 1/4" may be hard to see/realize with any consistency because of the nut behind the trigger. I would guess that very few of us on this forum are truly exceptional shooters to begin with.

Speak for yourself. I just can't do it while someone's watching me....lol

Absolutely! And with social media, people only brag up their good groups because it’s only worth posting if it’s “sub moa”. How can guys nowadays live up to these unrealistic accuracy standards [emoji38] Sometimes the wind blows them in and sometimes the wind blows them out.

My approach is to shoot "groups" consisting of an odd number of rounds.......and not to exceed 2 rounds!

Yup
 

I know that I am not at that level of Marksmenship. I wish I was but I dont think I will ever get there. I know its fun to shoot with people that are and to pick there brains.

That being said some of 260's challenges are fun

I have shot many hole whole groups. They only open up a bit when I send the second round down range.

Erik is a beauty.... lays it out fairly straight forward. Even if you don't believe in his approach for everything, still has to be considered as one of the knowledge bases to refer to

The first thing I saw of Erik, of course, was his stop neck sizing vid, which of course, made me investigate why he said that. After checking out his stuff a bit, I started enjoying most of it. Demolition Ranch dueling tree vids are humorous, coaching seemed to have helped.
Funny how watching one bunch of vids leads to another, I'd never seen Demolition Ranch before, he has quite the cast of friends on there as well. I chuckled at the thought of Erik against Nick Irving as the ringer shooter, he might bring some friends. I've seen Nick Irving previously in a few interviews on Mike Drop and Cleared Hot and Jocko and etc. Not a bughole shooter, but does know his way around a gun. There is one vid with him sighting in an unsighted, new gun, starting at 300 yds and going out to 1000 PDQ.

Well you guys so whatever you want but I can tell you for sure that if you regularly full size cases with Belts you aren't going to get very many loads out of them. When you FL size the brass has to go somewhere, and that is trim the neck or push it down to the base. There is a good reason Mag belted rounds that are Full Length sized quit chambering after 4 or 5 loads, where as if they are neck sized you can get 15 firings easy out of them. I have FL bushing dies, neck bushing dies, regular FL and regular neck dies. I use them as needed and as long as I can get a hunting load that will shoot in the .4 to .75 range I call that plenty good enough.

Chasing zero neck turn, min head space, min chamber in hunting rifles to squeeze that last .01 of group size just ends up with all kinds of problems if the gun gets dirty, wet or whatever. Gun needs to be accurate but it is even more important that is is 100% reliable.