Cops VS Gun Owners AGAIN!

[209x50]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/05/11/lorne-gunter-police-are-stigmatizing-lawful-firearm-owners/
Lorne Gunter: Police are stigmatizing lawful firearm owners

Lorne GunterMay 11, 2011 – 8:00 AM ET | Last Updated: May 10, 2011 4:59 PM ET
Those of us who have called for an end to the long-gun registry have often focussed on its cost — at least $2-billion — and its uselessness in stopping crime. But the greatest damage done by Bill C-68 has been the wedge it has driven between police and law-abiding Canadians who own guns for hunting, sport shooting or vermin control on farms.
Consider the case of Henry Barnes.
To say the least, Mr. Barnes is a colourful character. The 76-year-old also goes by the name of Johnny Sombrero. He is a former motorcycle-gang member. Indeed, he is a founder and former leader of Toronto’s Black Diamond Riders. The North York resident also owns more than 100 guns, or at least he did until January of 2010, when Toronto police burst into his apartment and seized them all, despite the fact all of them were properly registered and locked in gun safes.
What makes Mr. Barnes’ case indicative of the damage done by C-68 is the reaction of other gun owners. They are mostly on his side and against police — vehemently. Before C-68 came into effect in 1998, they likely would have instinctively sided with police.
Although he has not been an angel for much of his life, Mr. Barnes has no criminal record, either. Nevertheless, he claims police never approached him peacefully before the day they forced their way into his home to examine his gun lockers. They never phoned him or came to his door asking to take a look around. Their default was to treat him as a danger to the community from minute one.
When they did phone, it was to tell him — erroneously — that his car was being broken into. When he opened his apartment door to go check, he claims a big police officer lunged towards him, grabbed him by the neck and pushed him to the floor where a civilian member of the force fell on him, breaking some of his ribs. He then lay on the floor at gunpoint for five hours while officers “tore apart” his apartment looking for guns.
Mr. Barnes is currently on trial for unsafe storage. Despite all of his guns being locked away, police and Crown prosecutors claim some of the safes in which his guns were stored, as well as some of the locks used to secure them, were inadequate. That has now become a crime in Canada for which guilty-until-proven-innocent police tactics are the norm.
But why treat Mr. Barnes like a deranged maniac from the get-go? Why send dozens of officers to his home as a first response? Was he making threats, standing psychotic and half-naked in the street waving his weapons around?
Had police made one or more polite attempts to gain access to Mr. Barnes’ home and been rejected, I could understand their ton-of-bricks tactics. Had they served him with a valid warrant, only to have him refuse entry, perhaps their methods would be appropriate.
But increasingly, police are going to full-force tactics whenever firearms are in a home, whether or not the guns are involved in a crime. For this change in attitude and approach, I blame C-68.
Our current gun control legislation has made gun ownership an anti-social behaviour, in and of itself. And it has created gun crimes that never existed before.
Far too often now, police and prosecutors are dubious of the mental stability of anyone who owns a gun, just because they own one. This is because C-68 has created a stigma regarding gun ownership. It has put the obligation on the gun owner to prove his interest in firearms is legitimate and not a sign of some sociopathic disorder.
The law has also made a “gun” crime out of failure to fill out registration paperwork properly or to store one’s guns so securely that criminals cannot steal them and use them in real crimes.
Pitting police against law-abiding gun owners has strained the relationship between the two and put at risk the idea that policing derives its legitimacy from the consent of the policed. For this reason more than any other, the Tories should repeal Bill C-68 — not just the gun registry — now that they have their majority.
National Post

[Ryry4]

Pretty sad state of affairs in this country if you ask me. Hopefully Harper can fix these problems with a majority.

[crunchiespg]

Originally Posted by Ryry4

Pretty sad state of affairs in this country if you ask me. Hopefully Harper can fix these problems with a majority.

i want the end of C68 as much as anyone. but i'm also a LEO. and this article is obviously missing something huge. because we dont go a raid a house without a reason.

and i hate to say it, but any POS motorcycle gang member probably deserves it..

like all statistics and news reports, they show exactly what the author wants them to show and little more.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

and i hate to say it, but any POS motorcycle gang member probably deserves it..

.

I have to say it... that attitude coming from an officer of the law concerns me.

[crunchiespg]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I have to say it... that attitude coming from an officer of the law concerns me.

yeh, cos the hells angels are a charity organisation.. do lots of good for the community.

what i meant was, he has probably done something in his charity activities with his motorcycle gang that has attracted the attention of the police and they have acted on it.
ive yet to meet a motorcycle gang member who wasnt a criminal of some form (and im not talking about the sunday riders club)

[New Hunter Okotoks]

Lorne Gunter. "Police are stigmatizing Lawful Firearm Owners." What a JOKE!!!

This guy is not a typical firearms owner!!! The "Former Biker"?? He was the LEADER of a motorcycle gang who's rival was Satan's Choice.

This article is so slanted it's utterly pathetic. They are sure to paint the picture so people picture an old geezer in his apartment and a bunch of thug cops picked on him just because he owns too many guns. The guy is described as "colourful" which makes you think that he is a little bit of a character. The truth is that Johnny Sombrero a VERY bad guy. These bikers do a lot more than ride Harleys and collect stuffed animals for sick children.

[super7mag]

If that is truly the case come up with something better then an unsafe storage charge. taht is bs. 5 hrs at gun point I'd say they were looking for more then a pos canadain tire gun cabinet, but did not find it.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I have to say it... that attitude coming from an officer of the law concerns me.

I'm with you on this. The cops are digging their own hole now. Too many attitudes and situations where people get kicked in the face ore beat up. I'm sure there is more to the story but the fellow is 76 and a law abiding gun owner and still had to aly on the floor for 5 hours with broken ribs. The cops are judge and jury now too?

[Hunter Trav]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

i want the end of C68 as much as anyone. but i'm also a LEO. and this article is obviously missing something huge. because we dont go a raid a house without a reason.

and i hate to say it, but any POS motorcycle gang member probably deserves it..

like all statistics and news reports, they show exactly what the author wants them to show and little more.

Yes, police officers never do anything wrong or against the law do they...

[Got Juice?]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

i want the end of C68 as much as anyone. but i'm also a LEO. and this article is obviously missing something huge. because we dont go a raid a house without a reason.

and i hate to say it, but any POS motorcycle gang member probably deserves it..

like all statistics and news reports, they show exactly what the author wants them to show and little more.

Considering the negative bias the media has against firearms owners in general, this article is really disturbing. When the media starts defending a firearms owner, instead of the police, it sure looks like a police issue now doesn't it?

Police do not raid homes without reason? BS. They can/will/do raid homes 'suspected' of a lot of things without much in the way of actual proof. All it takes is a complaint. A warrant would be neat. Where was the warrant in this case?

Also, I see the man was charged with a firearms offence. Now the locks he used were judged 'inadequate?'

Last, and most important point. Who made YOU Judge and Jury? Wether or not you or I believe him to be 'guilty of something'... you still have procedures to follow, and cannot trample all over a person's civil rights just because you have a badge and feel like you are performing a public service.

Not to single you out, but really, who has the power? The citizen or the police officer who is EMPOWERED by the public to hold that trust?

Gee, look, when you hold the 'Blue Line' people really do look upon the profession with derision.

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I have to say it... that attitude coming from an officer of the law concerns me.

Ditto. That is scary right there.

Originally Posted by Hunter Trav

Yes, police officers never do anything wrong or against the law do they...

Nor do they drive drunk, commit homicides, or use drugs. As far as Angels Fearing To Tread, BLUE is the new 'angelic' colour.

[crunchiespg]

im not trying to get into an argument, but like you said yourself, they act on suspicion. and it's now for the courts to decide.

and, maybe the police haven't told the reporter all the facts??? you seem to have a read a lot into what wasnt mentioned.

it doesnt say they didnt have a warrant. again, an example of clever use of the english language by the reporter. it says they didnt serve him and give him chance to refuse. which if they suspect he is a real bad person then that makes sense.

i think it's sad how you have such a jaded view of the police. we are normal people, many of us enjoy the same stuff as you. and it's sad you jump to the defence of a gang member just because you dont like the C68 law..

i already said i dont like that law, it does nothing to stop criminals and just hinders us law abiding gun owners. but normally there's no smoke without fire. and articles can be written to convey any message you want regardless of the facts.

[horsetrader]

Another time we just have to wait to get the whole story. First reactions are usually very one-sided hopefully there is more to this story if not then Ryry4 is right a very sad state of affairs.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

i want the end of C68 as much as anyone. but i'm also a LEO. and this article is obviously missing something huge. because we dont go a raid a house without a reason.


and i hate to say it, but any POS motorcycle gang member probably deserves it..

like all statistics and news reports, they show exactly what the author wants them to show and little more.

RCMP?

Sure, they may have a reason, that doesn't mean the reason is justifiable


Too bad my CPS buddies don't post here. They could give dozens of recent examples of unnecessary and unjustified raids and arrests simply because the word "GUN" is involved. I have a hard time accepting what you say as a LEO.

My personal experience, and the experiences of several people I know in Calgary, disagree with this comment! All of us have a completely clean criminal record, even AFTER having our homes raided by TACT.


I'll give a short example as to why one of these raids was intiated.

A Calgary Gunsmith, fully licenced and registered, was taken down at gunpoint IN HIS SHOP, had his shop and HOME ransacked, because a person called police when they saw a customer walk into the shop with a gun.....

C-68 made this action by the police legal.....

[crunchiespg]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

RCMP?

Sure, they may have a reason, that doesn't mean the reason is justifiable


Too bad my CPS buddies don't post here. They could give dozens of recent examples of unnecessary and unjustified raids and arrests simply because the word "GUN" is involved. I have a hard time accepting what you say as a LEO.

My personal experience, and the experiences of several people I know in Calgary, disagree with this comment! All of us have a completely clean criminal record, even AFTER having our homes raided by TACT.


I'll give a short example as to why one of these raids was intiated.

A Calgary Gunsmith, fully licenced and registered, was taken down at gunpoint IN HIS SHOP, had his shop and HOME ransacked, because a person called police when they saw a customer walk into the shop with a gun.....

C-68 made this action by the police legal.....

I am CPS. Nothing you have posted rings true to me.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

I am CPS. Nothing you have posted rings true to me.

That's scary to hear... Either you are uninformed, or have the blinders on.

I've lived through it. So have many others in Calgary.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

and i hate to say it, but any POS motorcycle gang member probably deserves it..

Right there is the problem with todays police attitudes, "probably" will get you rushed by cops and your ribs broke. The only way they were able to trump anything up for charges is by using the vagaries of c-68's wording. The courts are being forced to decide what locked up securely means.

It also states in the article he has no criminal record. I guess that means SFA in today's police state, guilty until proven innocent.

We really need better oversight when it comes to our police masters.

Are you not the same cop that was bragging about not using certified ranges for restricted target practice on here a while ago? Must be nice to be above the law.

[pattycr125]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

i want the end of C68 as much as anyone. but i'm also a PIG. and this article is obviously missing something huge. because we dont go a raid a house without a reason.

and i hate to say it, but any POS motorcycle gang member probably deserves it..

like all statistics and news reports, they show exactly what the author wants them to show and little more.

i think alot of people could speak of POS cops that deserve alot of things to, i don't hate all cops but you're attitude is **** poor and indicates the type of officer you are.

before everyone hates on me, i'm entitled to my opinion.

i for one see this division as the downfall of humanity, couldn't a biker and officer get along? divided we fall

i would consider a friendship with a police officer if he was not quick to judge me because i own guns or I ride a motorcycle, but if thats to much to ask then so be it our society will continue to be divided.

[crunchiespg]

Originally Posted by pattycr125

i think alot of people could speak of POS cops that deserve alot of things to, i don't hate all cops but you're attitude is **** poor and indicates the type of officer you are.

before everyone hates on me, i'm entitled to my opinion.

i for one see this division as the downfall of humanity, couldn't a biker and officer get along? divided we fall

i would consider a friendship with a police officer if he was not quick to judge me because i own guns or I ride a motorcycle, but if thats to much to ask then so be it our society will continue to be divided.

i own guns.
i ride a motorcycle.
i'm all for C68 going.
i regularly inform other officer when they are wrong about firearms laws. and you cant always blame the officers for not knowing the intricate aspects of the firearms law. enough passionate firearms owners struggle to understand them. this forum and others are proof of that. how many times do you see a question from someone with a pal about the most basic of storage laws or similar?

my point was, i have yet to see a motorcycle gang member who doesnt inflict problems on society. i stand by the statement that criminal gang members are POS. i have seen the bloodshed, seen the families destroyed by these people. when i said he had it coming, i meant he has probably attracted attention to his illegal activities. i didnt mean he had it coming as in lets make up some charges just to get him.

but you take my one quote out of context. i want all us legal gun owners to have all the freedoms we deserve. i fight passionately for that. do you?

my chief publicly said the registry is crap.

i guarantee if you spoke to me in life i could break your stereo type of cops. in fact i go out of my way to make sure i'm as fair as possible to everyone.

my current job gives me a lot of flexibility to give people advise and just be the friendly face of the police. i dont do traffic tickets. and i much prefer to educate than prosecute.

like i said. the offer is there for a ride along. then you might think differently of us.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

i own guns.
i ride a motorcycle.
i'm all for C68 going.
i regularly inform other officer when they are wrong about firearms laws. and you cant always blame the officers for not knowing the intricate aspects of the firearms law. enough passionate firearms owners struggle to understand them. this forum and others are proof of that. how many times do you see a question from someone with a pal about the most basic of storage laws or similar?

my point was, i have yet to see a motorcycle gang member who doesnt inflict problems on society. i stand by the statement that criminal gang members are POS. i have seen the bloodshed, seen the families destroyed by these people. when i said he had it coming, i meant he has probably attracted attention to his illegal activities. i didnt mean he had it coming as in lets make up some charges just to get him.

but you take my one quote out of context. i want all us legal gun owners to have all the freedoms we deserve. i fight passionately for that. do you?

my chief publicly said the registry is crap.

i guarantee if you spoke to me in life i could break your stereo type of cops. in fact i go out of my way to make sure i'm as fair as possible to everyone.

my current job gives me a lot of flexibility to give people advise and just be the friendly face of the police. i dont do traffic tickets. and i much prefer to educate than prosecute.

like i said. the offer is there for a ride along. then you might think differently of us.

I don't think I took that quote out of context at all, and no, I won't ride with you anywhere, on two wheels or in a car.
You are not the kind of person I want to associate with , and that is a person who presumes people guilty untill they can prove themselves innocent becauae of what they are or who they associate themsxelves with. you made that pretty clear.
Cat

[gatorhunter]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

i own guns.
i ride a motorcycle.
i'm all for C68 going.
i regularly inform other officer when they are wrong about firearms laws. and you cant always blame the officers for not knowing the intricate aspects of the firearms law. enough passionate firearms owners struggle to understand them. this forum and others are proof of that. how many times do you see a question from someone with a pal about the most basic of storage laws or similar?

my point was, i have yet to see a motorcycle gang member who doesnt inflict problems on society. i stand by the statement that criminal gang members are POS. i have seen the bloodshed, seen the families destroyed by these people. when i said he had it coming, i meant he has probably attracted attention to his illegal activities. i didnt mean he had it coming as in lets make up some charges just to get him.

but you take my one quote out of context. i want all us legal gun owners to have all the freedoms we deserve. i fight passionately for that. do you?

my chief publicly said the registry is crap.

i guarantee if you spoke to me in life i could break your stereo type of cops. in fact i go out of my way to make sure i'm as fair as possible to everyone.

my current job gives me a lot of flexibility to give people advise and just be the friendly face of the police. i dont do traffic tickets. and i much prefer to educate than prosecute.

like i said. the offer is there for a ride along. then you might think differently of us.

From what I've been reading, you are a credit to your uniform! I would consider it a privilege to ride with you any time.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

like i said. the offer is there for a ride along. then you might think differently of us.

I'd be happy to take you up on this offer. Won't be my first ride-along, in the front. Which district do you work in?

I will tell you what happened to me and the raid on my house. Maybe you will change your mind in the truth of my earlier posts. I'll share names of fellow CPS you can talk to regarding the topic.

I am not ready to post details of this event up on the net. Why? Because I am concerned about another unjustified ransacking of my home.

[silver]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

i want the end of C68 as much as anyone. but i'm also a LEO. and this article is obviously missing something huge. because we dont go a raid a house without a reason.

and i hate to say it, but any POS motorcycle gang member probably deserves it..

like all statistics and news reports, they show exactly what the author wants them to show and little more.

With an attitude like that, and I had to deal with you, I would click my heels together, and raise my right arm. Maybe you and Sargeant Pepper should go away together and leave this world for the human race.

[crunchiespg]

ok, this is just turning into a ****ing match.. i'm out after this.

as the saying goes "before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes"

with that in mind, if anyone wants a ride along to see the realities of what we do, get in touch and i will help you out.

i'm not saying the police are perfect. especially GTA and area. but 99.99999% of the time officers do what they think is best at the time and hope to go home safely.

unfortunately sometimes that does infringe on innocent people. but sometimes its a case of better safe than sorry. we as an institution treat gun calls seriously, because unfortunately people do shoot at us.

remember, like i said, i want C68 gone. i want to have freedom to act as a sensible law abiding citizen, and i dont see how having a piece of paper saying i can go to the range helps anyone (among numerous other faults of C68).....

[Cappy]

Although he has not been an angel for much of his life, Mr. Barnes has no criminal record, either. Nevertheless, he claims police never approached him peacefully before the day they forced their way into his home to examine his gun lockers. They never phoned him or came to his door asking to take a look around. Their default was to treat him as a danger to the community from minute one.
When they did phone, it was to tell him — erroneously — that his car was being broken into. When he opened his apartment door to go check, he claims a big police officer lunged towards him, grabbed him by the neck and pushed him to the floor where a civilian member of the force fell on him, breaking some of his ribs.

I actually read through a lot of the responses to this thread. It amazes me even though the very limited and on sided information is there at the beginning. I still read several comments about an assault that occurred where the victim had his ribs broken. This article clearly states that a civilian member fell on him. That implies too me that it was inadvertent and not malicious. Also having a civilian member at the front, where things could get very hectic tells me the threat level wasn't extremely high. The fake phone call isn't a bad idea if you ask me. Guy has a history with the police and may not be overly co-operative on the phone, get him outside and into custody and voila threat level goes way down and the chance of him doing something stupid is removed.

It looks like a lot of people are drawing some hard and fast conclusions based on some limited info.