|
|
01-15-2015, 03:48 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy
The more I look into this 38-55 tack driver the more amazed I get! This bullet goes transonic at 265 yards! I cannot believe that maintain stabilized flight for the remaining 245 yards and none have keyholed through the target!
|
You are making a few assumptions that aren't correct. 255 grain projectiles were used, but faster than 1600.
It is an old rifle, and I have had it for a long time. It was of the first rilfes I ever purchased, from an old timer in BC. When I bought it, all of the small parts were in a coffee can, and the barrel and mag tube were in bad shape. Bore was good though. I have shot this rilfe lots, and at greater distances. The only time I have had a bullet go sideways was trying some "experimental" slugs that turned out to be .375"...
R.
|
01-15-2015, 03:58 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: In your personal space.
Posts: 4,789
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rman
You are making a few assumptions that aren't correct. 255 grain projectiles were used, but faster than 1600.
It is an old rifle, and I have had it for a long time. It was of the first rilfes I ever purchased, from an old timer in BC. When I bought it, all of the small parts were in a coffee can, and the barrel and mag tube were in bad shape. Bore was good though. I have shot this rilfe lots, and at greater distances. The only time I have had a bullet go sideways was trying some "experimental" slugs that turned out to be .375"...
R.
|
I am actually a fan of the 38-55, what bullet at what velocity were you using?
|
01-15-2015, 04:00 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
|
|
Still using the Barnes 255, but at 2100ish...
It's about as fast as I would like, in that rifle.
R.
|
01-15-2015, 04:08 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: In your personal space.
Posts: 4,789
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rman
Still using the Barnes 255, but at 2100ish...
It's about as fast as I would like, in that rifle.
R.
|
Any idea what ya may be getting for pressures inside that ol' gal? Have you noticed any pressure signs?
|
01-15-2015, 04:16 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: In your personal space.
Posts: 4,789
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rman
Still using the Barnes 255, but at 2100ish...
It's about as fast as I would like, in that rifle.
R.
|
Man alive I am still amazed you are stabilizing is as when ya run the data at that scorching 2100fps, that bullet goes transonic at 285 yards leaving what should be a tumbling Rubiks Cube for the remaining 215 yards and somehow it punches nice clean round holes.
The reason why I am quite amazed is that I have shot my 17HMR lots at 300m and it goes transonic at 265m if memory serves me correctly, leaving only 35m of slow flight to the target. The results between groups at 250m where its supersonic and at 300m where its subsonic are amazing. The 17 HMR was only transonic for 11% of its flight distance (and makes shotgun like patterns) and this 38-55 remained tight for a transonic distance for 43% of the flight distance. Awesome twist in physics!
|
01-15-2015, 04:35 PM
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hythe
Posts: 4,354
|
|
Rman is that the best you can do or just everyday shooting? I'm pretty impressed.
|
01-15-2015, 06:04 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,595
|
|
This is likely the most impressive display of "hunting shooting" I have seen. Just awesome. I bet your freezer is full. Great job!
|
01-15-2015, 06:45 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy
Any idea what ya may be getting for pressures inside that ol' gal? Have you noticed any pressure signs?
|
According to the data I have, its supposed to be right around 35,000psi, but I do suspect higher. 38,500 or so...I have no pressure signs on the brass, or primer. Again, this works in this rifle...
R.
|
01-15-2015, 07:00 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: rollyview
Posts: 7,860
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rman
According to the data I have, its supposed to be right around 35,000psi, but I do suspect higher. 38,500 or so...I have no pressure signs on the brass, or primer. Again, this works in this rifle...
R.
|
it's not the brass or the primer that will show the pressure. the large rifle primers are used at 60,000 psi without pressure signs.
you should have that at 30,000 psi in a 94 according my my book.
i wouldn't push it i know some guys push 45-70's in the same sort of fashion but hey not my gun...
|
01-15-2015, 07:03 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy
Man alive I am still amazed you are stabilizing is as when ya run the data at that scorching 2100fps, that bullet goes transonic at 285 yards leaving what should be a tumbling Rubiks Cube for the remaining 215 yards and somehow it punches nice clean round holes.
The reason why I am quite amazed is that I have shot my 17HMR lots at 300m and it goes transonic at 265m if memory serves me correctly, leaving only 35m of slow flight to the target. The results between groups at 250m where its supersonic and at 300m where its subsonic are amazing. The 17 HMR was only transonic for 11% of its flight distance (and makes shotgun like patterns) and this 38-55 remained tight for a transonic distance for 43% of the flight distance. Awesome twist in physics!
|
I am not sure where you are pulling your data from? In order for the bullet I was using to go transonic (1126 fps at 20*C...) at 265m (290 yards) my muzzle velocity would have had to been about 1636fps, OR, the ambient temperature would have had have been well above 200*C. Neither one of these is true...
The other thing to remember, it that this is not a 17HMR bullet shaped like a missile. Its a 255 grain bullet shaped like a bus. I am not going to get into the physics that tell us why these things happen, but I will say just because a bullet goes transonic does not mean that it loses its accuracy...depending on the bullet, of course.
Also, there have been plenty of fellers before me, that have shot this round far more accurately, at far greater distances.
R.
|
01-15-2015, 07:03 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by norwestalta
Rman is that the best you can do or just everyday shooting? I'm pretty impressed.
|
Well, truth be told, I was a little hung over...
R.
|
01-15-2015, 07:19 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o
it's not the brass or the primer that will show the pressure. the large rifle primers are used at 60,000 psi without pressure signs.
you should have that at 30,000 psi in a 94 according my my book.
i wouldn't push it i know some guys push 45-70's in the same sort of fashion but hey not my gun...
|
Not really sure what other pressure signs he would have been asking for? Top end limit that CIP says for the 38-55 is about 35,000PSI with SAAMI saying 30,000CUP. Same rifle, but for the 30-30 it is CIP 46,000PSI, and SAAMI saying 38,000CUP...
A lot of this has to do with the barrel steel used for smokeless, and the barrel steel used for black powder, and the fact that no one wants to get sued...
Bottom line, I am more than comfortable with that load, in my rifle. It is certainly nothing I would try in anyone else's...
R.
|
01-15-2015, 07:23 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2
This is likely the most impressive display of "hunting shooting" I have seen. Just awesome. I bet your freezer is full. Great job!
|
Thank you for the compliment, but this was no means a hunting type situation.
But yes, my freezer is full.
R.
|
01-15-2015, 07:30 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: rollyview
Posts: 7,860
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rman
A lot of this has to do with the barrel steel used for smokeless, and the barrel steel used for black powder, and the fact that no one wants to get sued...
Bottom line, I am more than comfortable with that load, in my rifle. It is certainly nothing I would try in anyone else's...
R.
|
yup no one wants to get sued. those old cartridges always have a lower limit like that.
it sounds like you trust your rifle
|
01-15-2015, 07:36 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o
yup no one wants to get sued. those old cartridges always have a lower limit like that.
it sounds like you trust your rifle
|
That really had the most to with it.
The rifle is old, but it is still a Model 94, and I know the work that has been done to it, so yes, I trust it quite a bit.
R.
|
01-15-2015, 07:43 PM
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hythe
Posts: 4,354
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rman
Well, truth be told, I was a little hung over...
R.
|
Impressive. I'd like to see what happens when you get serious.
|
01-15-2015, 07:46 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: In your personal space.
Posts: 4,789
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rman
I am not sure where you are pulling your data from? In order for the bullet I was using to go transonic (1126 fps at 20*C...) at 265m (290 yards) my muzzle velocity would have had to been about 1636fps, OR, the ambient temperature would have had have been well above 200*C. Neither one of these is true...
The other thing to remember, it that this is not a 17HMR bullet shaped like a missile. Its a 255 grain bullet shaped like a bus. I am not going to get into the physics that tell us why these things happen, but I will say just because a bullet goes transonic does not mean that it loses its accuracy...depending on the bullet, of course.
Also, there have been plenty of fellers before me, that have shot this round far more accurately, at far greater distances.
R.
|
Your right! I fat fingered the muzzle velocity. That is a really sweet loading its almost like you designed it to work perfectly at 500 yards as it would be going transonic at the target. If there is a longer challenge would you heat that round some more to get the same result?
Actually, if you don't mind, can you please get into the physics of why a "17HMR bullet shaped like a missile" would lose more accuracy then a hurtling school bus?
As per the plenty of fellers that shoot that round further and more accurately, you are selling yourself short as this is amazing shooting!
|
01-15-2015, 07:51 PM
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hythe
Posts: 4,354
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy
Your right! I fat fingered the muzzle velocity. That is a really sweet loading its almost like you designed it to work perfectly at 500 yards as it would be going transonic at the target. If there is a longer challenge would you heat that round some more to get the same result?
Actually, if you don't mind, can you please get into the physics of why a "17HMR bullet shaped like a missile" would lose more accuracy then a hurtling school bus?
As per the plenty of fellers that shoot that round further and more accurately, you are selling yourself short as this is amazing shooting!
|
I would like to know as well.
|
01-15-2015, 08:09 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy
Your right! I fat fingered the muzzle velocity. That is a really sweet loading its almost like you designed it to work perfectly at 500 yards as it would be going transonic at the target. If there is a longer challenge would you heat that round some more to get the same result?
Actually, if you don't mind, can you please get into the physics of why a "17HMR bullet shaped like a missile" would lose more accuracy then a hurtling school bus?
As per the plenty of fellers that shoot that round further and more accurately, you are selling yourself short as this is amazing shooting!
|
I did want to get it to 500 yards, but I have shot that rifle past 500 as well with some success. I don't think I would try and get anymore out of it, as I feel I am already there, with regards to pressure vs performance. I have other loads for 100 and 300 yards, and tend to stick with those. They are more pleasant to shoot.
R.
|
01-15-2015, 08:25 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: In your personal space.
Posts: 4,789
|
|
Rman. What range do you shoot at?
|
01-15-2015, 08:28 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by norwestalta
I would like to know as well.
|
There isn't enough room to type it all out!!! And its all math and stuff!
A fellow named Bryan Litz wrote a really good book about external ballistics. And there is plenty of info in there regarding transonic flight.
Basically, as a bullet moves from super to sub sonic, air pressure moves forward towards the front of the bullet. This movement can effect the flight of the bullet. If the bullet is not well stabilized, it can't stay pointing forward, and will begin to yaw. A well stabilized bullet can go through the transonic zone more easily.
Other environmental effects (wind) can come into play to further cause the bullet to yaw.
R.
|
01-15-2015, 08:29 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Nelson BC
Posts: 2,042
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rman
Thanks guys!
The rifle is a Model 94 in 38-55, with a bit of work done to it...
R.
|
Unbelievable! Just WOW.
I tried with a Finnlight 270wsm, Zeiss scope. I gave up after ten shots for zero.
|
01-15-2015, 08:30 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy
Rman. What range do you shoot at?
|
I have access to private range set up south of town
R.
|
01-15-2015, 08:32 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsonob1
Unbelievable! Just WOW.
I tried with a Finnlight 270wsm, Zeiss scope. I gave up after ten shots for zero.
|
I didn't!!!!
R.
|
01-29-2015, 01:32 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Over That Hill
Posts: 3,872
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rman
OK! Pictures are here!
24" Target:
[IMG] [/IMG]
Target and rifle:
[IMG] [/IMG]
Rifle:
[IMG] [/IMG]
R.
|
Awesome shooting Rman!
|
01-30-2015, 03:56 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 25,296
|
|
That's impressive to say the least, sure would not like to be a trespasser who stopped way out to look back and flip you off, might have a belly ache.
__________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
|
01-30-2015, 04:26 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Over That Hill
Posts: 3,872
|
|
I would like to add, from my personal experience on AO, and in regards to Rman, not only is he a great shot he is also a gentleman of the highest order.
|
01-31-2015, 02:48 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,629
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rman
OK! Pictures are here!
24" Target:
[IMG] [/IMG]
Target and rifle:
[IMG] [/IMG]
Rifle:
[IMG] [/IMG]
R.
|
Thats a beauty rifle!!
|
01-31-2015, 09:27 PM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 420
|
|
Alberta Metallic Silhouette Association
If this off-hand challenge has you interested come an try the Rifle Metallic Silhouette sport.
Visit the website http://www.absilhouetteassoc.ca/
The 2015 schedule has not been posted yet.
The 500 metre target is a Ram and it measures about 26 inches X 32 inches.
If you are a member of the Sherwood Park F & G range, the club has 3/5 sized Rams.
Rifle Silhouette was a very popular sport at the SPF&G range but the sport was confiscated.
There should be 2 complete sets (chicken, pigs, turkey, rams) of 3/5th size targets.
|
01-31-2015, 09:36 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 509
|
|
What do you mean the 'Sport was Confiscated' ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gifted Intuitive
If this off-hand challenge has you interested come an try the Rifle Metallic Silhouette sport.
Visit the website http://www.absilhouetteassoc.ca/
The 2015 schedule has not been posted yet.
The 500 metre target is a Ram and it measures about 26 inches X 32 inches.
If you are a member of the Sherwood Park F & G range, the club has 3/5 sized Rams.
Rifle Silhouette was a very popular sport at the SPF&G range but the sport was confiscated.
There should be 2 complete sets (chicken, pigs, turkey, rams) of 3/5th size targets.
|
__________________
Yes - I am a leather worker. (just ask)
FIVE Leather, Calgary AB
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:12 PM.
|