Illegal introduction of carp in Alberta! THE START OF A DISASTER?

[BeeGuy]

That's a good point. If these are from one or more ponds it could in fact be both species.

The horror.

When are we going to go slay a few (hundred)?

[jeprli]

I beleive i clarified that it was prussian on the first page of this post. Crucian carp would not be able to multiply at this pace. they're clearly silver with pronaunced lateral line, which is not typical for crucian carp. Either way bigger the population smaller the indiiduals.

Prussian carp doesn't really favor salmonid water, if it was chub then you'd have something to worry about. Where i come from they are abundant, danube river and its watershed. As soon as you start aproaching teritory with fresh mountain runoff they are nowhere to be found. They favor warm water bodies. So i'd say reservoirs should be the place to concentrate your efforts on. Domestic fish that will suffer will will be the minnows, larger fish will coexist without a problem. Predatory fish will gain from this. Prussian carp did not affect zander, pike, catfish, perch, chub...or any game fish. They did destroy minnow species, thats the downfall.

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by jeprli

Predatory fish will gain from this. Prussian carp did not affect zander, pike, catfish, perch, chub...or any game fish. They did destroy minnow species, thats the downfall.

makes no sense.
how will predatory fish benifit from this when they all rely on minnows at points of there lives and some throughout there lives?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by pickrel pat

makes no sense.
how will predatory fish benifit from this when they all rely on minnows at points of there lives and some throughout there lives?

X2

Justifying this problem...is infuriating especially is someone at F&W is saying...look...the online community is happy this ravenous carp is going to be playing havoc with our ecosystem...lets do nothing about it...and the next time...and the next time.

We need a concise and well thought out emergency environmental response plan for just not air and water but for invasive species introductions whether that is plant or animal or bird.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

you know very little of carp, and it is very very simple to eradicate a species.look up the ebro,or the affect of nile perch on lake victoria. im not sure of the proper name but a river has a capacity for fish biomass change that artificially in the natives favor ie flood the system with various year classes of our natural cold water predators. it mite take a few years but our natural fish have the capacity to do the job if action is made quickly. given that it is probably to late, oh and walleye have been eradicated from some of our lakes by angling pressure and compatition with other native fish??

Yes I do know very little of carp but... if its that easy to get rid of them then how come they still exist in other systems where they have been introduced. I remember seeing the statistics on survival rates when stocking coldwater predators and its not very good, deffinatly less effective than stocking trout. While I think your idea is probably better than forming a doughball army I dont know if I have complete faith in it.

Your second suggestion about netting the spawn is a very good idea.

[TyreeUM]

How long has this fish known to be in this system?

[jeprli]

Predators will benefit because there will be much more food to eat.

This whole tread does not make sense, you're trying to get a reaction from people who knew about this problem from begining. Why would they be silent about this for more than a decade???

This is starting to look like a story of don qUixote, with sundance in a lead role. Is there really a point in fighting a battle thats already lost?

You cannot erradicate brook trout which is way easier to catch and locate, or how about losing battle with perch? Why don't you introduce rotenone to lake sundance if it so effective against invaders? Kill those perch already!

A lot of effort has gone into containing and controling of prussian carp in entire europe. In over 50 years no one succeeded, and prussian carp is still dominant in most warmwAter bodies. Same goes for sunfish and american bull catfish.

Some things just cannot be controled by a man, get over it.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by jeprli

Predators will benefit because there will be much more food to eat.

This whole tread does not make sense, you're trying to get a reaction from people who knew about this problem from begining. Why would they be silent about this for more than a decade???

This is starting to look like a story of don qUixote, with sundance in a lead role. Is there really a point in fighting a battle thats already lost?

You cannot erradicate brook trout which is way easier to catch and locate, or how about losing battle with perch? Why don't you introduce rotenone to lake sundance if it so effective against invaders? Kill those perch already!

A lot of effort has gone into containing and controling of prussian carp in entire europe. In over 50 years no one succeeded, and prussian carp is still dominant in most warmwAter bodies. Same goes for sunfish and american bull catfish.

Some things just cannot be controled by a man, get over it.

Me thinks you doth protest too much.

These fish are not native...they should not belong...they will take over...they will predate on eggs, same food as native fish, destroy habitat...so you are saying...I love fishing for them so leave them be?



You need to be part of the solution when it comes to invasive introductions...not part of the problem.

Some idiot controlled putting them in the Red Deer System...now some smart people need to understand what can be done. Sure...it may be too late due to lack of effort or apathy...or maybe something can be done and it just takes us to tell F&W that we are not sitting on our hands...shrugging our shoulders...shyly looking over the hill at our "secret" carp hole wondering is the mean old Sundance going to make it go away.

Please give it a rest...you can not justify what someone has done here. If something can be done to fix it you CANNOT stand in the way.

Cheers

Sun (Free to remove invasive species!!!!)

When you started catching them a long time ago...did you report them to the regional F&W biologist? It would good to know the approximate date you showed the F&W officer the carp... If there is not a system in place for field officers to alert head office biologists to invasive species...then you may have hit the nail on the hammer as a cause and effect...to why we need a plan in place each time this happens... Sadly this is likely to only increase in frequency so long as greedy idiots think of themselves and not all fishermen in Alberta.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Cal

Yes I do know very little of carp but... if its that easy to get rid of them then how come they still exist in other systems where they have been introduced. I remember seeing the statistics on survival rates when stocking coldwater predators and its not very good, deffinatly less effective than stocking trout. While I think your idea is probably better than forming a doughball army I dont know if I have complete faith in it.

Your second suggestion about netting the spawn is a very good idea.

what im trying to say is action is the key to nipping this issue in the bud. flooding the system with predators creates an army of mouths killing carp.it does not need a sturdy will do no harm to the system but will kill lots of carp. sturgon relased in the correct area at the right time will decimate the eggs before hatching. no. idea if it is going to wipe the carp out but it will slow the spread and is an action that can be taken NOW. this along with netting and electrofishing at least gives our rivers a chance you guys have very little first hand experience in the damage carp can do and if annual water temps climb even a little we will not have even pike left. we can only hope a 05 flood event coincides with the carp spawn.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by TyreeUM

How long has this fish known to be in this system?

F&W knew since 2008 at a minimum. Lots were caught so I would hazard a range of 8-10 years in the system...maybe longer if they were in a dugout or impoundment that got flooded out in the past 8-10 years.

Currently they are concentrated heavily in the Rosebud Creek Drainage. Where else...not sure. IF just in the Rosebud Creek Drainage...there is still a chance not enough have made it to the Red Deer River to support a viable population there so eradication is still a possibility.

Different ways can be used to eliminate them depending upon where they are.

Rotenone, Primacord, Dewatering ponds, Electrofishing, Seining etc.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

what im trying to say is action is the key to nipping this issue in the bud. flooding the system with predators creates an army of mouths killing carp.it does not need a sturdy will do no harm to the system but will kill lots of carp. sturgon relased in the correct area at the right time will decimate the eggs before hatching. no. idea if it is going to wipe the carp out but it will slow the spread and is an action that can be taken NOW. this along with netting and electrofishing at least gives our rivers a chance you guys have very little first hand experience in the damage carp can do and if annual water temps climb even a little we will not have even pike left. we can only hope a 05 flood event coincides with the carp spawn.

Unfortunately while you mean well...this will not work. You have to get rid of them all and as soon as possible. No amount of natural predation or forced natural predation will remove the carp.

A flood would like wash thousands and thousands into the Red Deer thereby potentially making a large enough population in the Red Deer River to be sustainable.

[pickrel pat]

so..... has anybody reading this thread ever incedently caught or targeted these alberta carp in this water system?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by jeprli

Some things just cannot be controled by a man, get over it.

Someone who has a private little fishery of Carp should suffer and have their private little illegal carp fishery destroyed...wiped out...eliminated...kaput! They are the problem...

What punishment should be dished out to someone who knowingly had an illegal invasive carp fishery on their property...allowed others to fish it and all the while losing carp after carp down the creek to spread and multiple.

Anyone have any ideas what a reasonable punishment should be? Cover cost of removal? Large fine to going towards future containment issues?

Should F&W just ignore it and not go after them in some way?

[jeprli]

I really don't care about these carp nor am i wondering if you'll destroy my "secret" carp hole. What i will do is sit down and laugh at this vision of yours. You will never be able to control this species of fish, get that through your head.

You cannot control your local lake from perch invasion, are you sure you can containan an area almost 1/3 of entire province?

I'm still wondering how a person who has no actual knowledge of this species(apart from wikipedia) will bring this problem to an end, when at the same time he lost a battle at the homefront(perch).

If you get anywhere with this let me know, i'll happily point out known locations with carp.


When do you plan to erradicate rainbow trout, brook trout and brown trout they are invasive species as well?seems like people love catching them and no one is complaining, same will happen with this carp problem.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by jeprli

I really don't care about these carp nor am i wondering if you'll destroy my "secret" carp hole. What i will do is sit down and laugh at this vision of yours. You will never be able to control this species of fish, get that through your head.

You cannot control your local lake from perch invasion, are you sure you can containan an area almost 1/3 of entire province?

I'm still wondering how a person who has no actual knowledge of this species(apart from wikipedia) will bring this problem to an end, when at the same time he lost a battle at the homefront(perch).

If you get anywhere with this let me know, i'll happily point out known locations with carp.


When do you plan to erradicate rainbow trout, brook trout and brown trout they are invasive species as well?seems like people love catching them and no one is complaining, same will happen with this carp problem.

Pointing out known locations of Carp is a great first step. Please list them all here...and I am serious if you are.

As I mentioned above...depending upon how big the problem is...maybe there is or maybe there is not something to do. What I am saying is let's get the information out there...clearly many people did not have a clue. I suspect many people in F&W did not have a clue. So we need to encourage a fast response to gathering the data and then sit down and see...have we lost...or can something be done.

At the very least...private carp ponds should be toasted. People should not benefit from this travesty.

Arguing that people will love catching them...hides the actual facts...the damage to the native species people love catching.

Brook trout out competed native cutts and bulls. Hybridized with bulls damaging natures genetic balance. Rainbows out competed cutts and hybridized losing for ever many strains of pure strain westslopes cutthroat trout.

Justifying in your way...is poor IMHO. But unfortunately that is the apathy F&W may look to for making decisions versus doing what should be done and making hard decisions to try if there is a chance.

[jeprli]

Just trying to say that fighting this may and will destroy already fragile native populations. If government cared at all they would not allow import of these prolific species, negative effects on native fish have been known for a long time.

These fish mature fast and have proved to be very succesful in their reproduction and overpopulating their teritory. These carp can use milt from almost any fish(within carp family) to fertilize their eggs.

Common carp for instance or grass carp are much easier to control and look what happened all across the continent, prussian is a much stronger and resilient compared to its bigger family members.

If authorities want to know about locations of these fish they can contact me, i will be happy to help. Although im certain they know more than they want to admit.

[fish gunner]

perhaps I am not understanding, do we know the carp are established in the streams mentioned in previous posts. if so even poison will have a limited chance of success in flowing water. the key to my introduction of predators is the fact they are sterile. If as an example the red can sustain 1 ton of fish per kilometer eventually the carp will become a higher percentage over time of that ton, if we introduced 5 tons of predators. the food source becomes the carp. this is how the carp take over a system, by out breeding and out competing natives for available food sources mean while ravaging native spawning, habitat,eggs,ect. use what we know the carp do to the natives to the carp them selves.it may not eradicate the carp but life sure will be difficult.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by jeprli

Just trying to say that fighting this may and will destroy already fragile native populations. If government cared at all they would not allow import of these prolific species, negative effects on native fish have been known for a long time.

These fish mature fast and have proved to be very succesful in their reproduction and overpopulating their teritory. These carp can use milt from almost any fish(within carp family) to fertilize their eggs.

Common carp for instance or grass carp are much easier to control and look what happened all across the continent, prussian is a much stronger and resilient compared to its bigger family members.

If authorities want to know about locations of these fish they can contact me, i will be happy to help. Although im certain they know more than they want to admit.

I understand what you are saying... The question is what is more fragile...in terms of ecology in Alberta...Rosebud Creek or the whole Saskatchewan watershed down to Manitoba?

Since you have a wealth of information on carp in Alberta...all I would ask is that you be a proactive protector of our fragile fisheries and report the information to F&W. Then you can compare notes of where, when, how, why. Maybe it will be beneficial to the problem at hand. I don't want apathy to be the ruin of our fishery if there was a possibility of making a difference now.

Contact:

Cooper, Jason
Fisheries Biologist
Fish and Wildlife

Sustainable Resource Development
4th fl First Red Deer Place
4911 - 51 Street
Red Deer, AB
T4N 6V4

Phone: 403 340-7685
Fax: 403 340-5575
E-mail: jason.cooper@gov.ab.ca

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

perhaps I am not understanding, do we know the carp are established in the streams mentioned in previous posts. if so even poison will have a limited chance of success in flowing water. the key to my introduction of predators is the fact they are sterile. If as an example the red can sustain 1 ton of fish per kilometer eventually the carp will become a higher percentage over time of that ton, if we introduced 5 tons of predators. the food source becomes the carp. this is how the carp take over a system, by out breeding and out competing natives for available food sources mean while ravaging native spawning, habitat,eggs,ect. use what we know the carp do to the natives to the carp them selves.it may not eradicate the carp but life sure will be difficult.

No...predators will not work. Poison works in flowing creeks, streams and rivers...it is just volume of poison versus volume of water versus costs versus risk and reward etc.

Potassium Permanganate neutralizes rotenone for instance. You apply it downsteam of where you want effects to stop.

This would not work in the Red Deer. It likely would work in Serviceberry, Rosebud etc...during low water in the Summer heat.

Another point to consider is that most predators can not survive in the same low oxygen, high temperature creeks like minnow and carp.

Stocking the Red Deer is not cost feasible nor likely to make a difference. If a short term fast solution does not eliminate enough from the small creeks to lower the likelihood of a viable population forming in the Red Deer...then it is likely too late.

[keeks]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

You have to get rid of them all and as soon as possible. No amount of natural predation or forced natural predation will remove the carp.

It is proven that there is no way to eradicate 100% of any species in a controlled environment, nevermind in a dynamic ecosystem such as a river.

k

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by keeks

It is proven that there is no way to eradicate 100% of any species in a controlled environment, nevermind in a dynamic ecosystem such as a river.

k

In the Red Deer River no...but that is not what I am saying. There is a biological principle where you need a certain number of individuals present to make a self sustaining population viable. What that level is in the Red Deer...I don't know. If F&W surveys show few individuals but lots and lots in Rosebud Creek...we have a different scenario.

Rosebud is not a large river...Serviceberry Creek is much smaller again...in places you can jump across...

Treating a creek like this is very easy. F&W use to have rotenone in there inventory just for sampling...and it was efficient in getting them all.

And you can remove 100% if you want to...the questions is timing...are we too late...how much would it cost...will the government do it.

The flip side is...do nothing and what is to stop someone from putting channel cats in the North Saskatchewan or a Rosebud impoundment?

Talk about inaction all you want...but until I see the questions asked and reasonable responses back it does not make any sense to give up now.

[fish gunner]

ok if a predator flood is unlighty to succeed how abought an electro fence in the lower reaches of the mentioned streams. contain the spread till a better solution is worked out. in my opinion by the time the vogons in SRD/F&W react to the problem it will be two late given their lack of action/concern at the present time. that is on top of the lack of concern from our form members, other than the few multiple responders on this thread. if need be as sundance commented earlier take native net samples and nuke the whole affected area. then find the entry point and they can pay for the clean up program.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

ok if a predator flood is unlighty to succeed how abought an electro fence in the lower reaches of the mentioned streams. contain the spread till a better solution is worked out. in my opinion by the time the vogons in SRD/F&W react to the problem it will be two late given their lack of action/concern at the present time. that is on top of the lack of concern from our form members, other than the few multiple responders on this thread. if need be as sundance commented earlier take native net samples and nuke the whole affected area. then find the entry point and they can pay for the clean up program.

Electric fence won't work. You either address the root problem or run around in circles.

If you look at this area on Google Earth it is a small creek with very small creeks flowing in...likely the main creek is dry in places during the Summer. Likely the only over wintering and summering areas are dugouts, impoundments and a few deeper holes behind culverts and around corners.

Easy to walk...easy to treat...easy to target except for impoundments and dugouts. They are harder to deal with due to size and water volume...but are likely the most critical places to target as that is the carp production factory. Don't want to use rotenone? Then set some prima cord!

[fish gunner]

what ever it takes. rose bud as I know it starts near didsbury,10-15 miles south of home for me. more than willing to give my time to help. is there any program / study underway at present. a swift devastating response is our only hope of success. is there any thing joe public can do surely u cant just take a bucket of poison and dump it in the affected waters?? our current regs limit any real angler effort success.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

what ever it takes. rose bud as I know it starts near didsbury,10-15 miles south of home for me. more than willing to give my time to help. is there any program / study underway at present. a swift devastating response is our only hope of success. is there any thing joe public can do surely u cant just take a bucket of poison and dump it in the affected waters?? our current regs limit any real angler effort success.

F&W is in charge of any program that may or may not happen.

[papirus]

which freaking human being eats carp, they are the most stink and bone heaven fish ever...back home when we catch them we use them as a bait for pike or salt water fishes like grey mullet....

[Sundancefisher]

Has anyone caught Carp...other than Triploid Grass carp in Alberta and other than in the Rosebud Creek Drainage?

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Has anyone caught Carp...other than Triploid Grass carp in Alberta and other than in the Rosebud Creek Drainage?

do you mean in alberta, have caught hundreds other wise but none in alberta.

[trainerdave]

Yes, carp in Alberta. I believe Sundance is trying to get a grasp on the spread of these to help formulate an eradication strategy. If they are localized there may be hope. If they are already widespread then trying to lobby and mobilize resources may be a larger more extensive and
complex issue. Carp do not play well with others and like having spam,spam,spam and spam -with spam. We could have carp,carp,carp and carp-with carp for fishing fun in a river near you.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

do you mean in alberta, have caught hundreds other wise but none in alberta.

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Has anyone caught Carp...other than Triploid Grass carp in Alberta and other than in the Rosebud Creek Drainage?

Yup

Just wondering about are there other little problems (becoming bigger every year) starting to fester that F&W needs to know about?