337, 338 general archery moose seasons - gone?

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

thats it. from the sounds of it, there is more coming in the next few years.

Ya, it sounds like a lot of the mule deer zones will go on draw. Seems the archers are quite successful in a large number of them. It's a difficult task I'm sure dividing the harvest up equally amoung all the user groups.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Ya, it sounds like a lot of the mule deer zones will go on draw. Seems the archers are quite successful in a large number of them. It's a difficult task I'm sure dividing the harvest up equally amoung all the user groups.

Its a double edged sword...

Close a zone to general archery...then the ones from that zone flock to other zones...same thing happens....then again and again. Then everything is on draw! No more general archery....anywhere for anything.

LC

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Its a double edged sword...

Close a zone to general archery...then the ones from that zone flock to other zones...same thing happens....then again and again. Then everything is on draw! No more general archery....anywhere for anything.

LC

Well there will always be the dedicated archery zones but ya, you are likely right about the other WMUs. I guess it speaks to the effectiveness of the new gear and such that archers are using....they are just too successful compared to the old days. Technology is a blessing and a curse.

[amcphee]

The Manitoba moose hunt has been written off for all but native hunters.

Our elk hunt is headed in the same direction.

Once they are gone-they will not return.

[CNR]

Well I guess we should have supported the crossbow hunters....then the process would happen faster.... Unbelievable!

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Well there will always be the dedicated archery zones but ya, you are likely right about the other WMUs. I guess it speaks to the effectiveness of the new gear and such that archers are using....they are just too successful compared to the old days. Technology is a blessing and a curse.

More people are getting into archery for the added opportunities....sadly that is partially to blame for the dwindling opportunities...

Remember to keep filling out your online voluntary surveys....

LC

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

More people are getting into archery for the added opportunities....sadly that is partially to blame for the dwindling opportunities...

Remember to keep filling out your online voluntary surveys....

LC

Percentage of harvest allocated is based on number of participants so more would be better you'd think. Bowhunting permit sales have only increased slightly in recent years. I hate to see any group lose opportunity but it's also important that harvest is allocated fairly among all user groups. No one group should have to bear all of the reduction in opportunity.

I hope you aren't suggesting people don't accurately fill out or don't fill out at all the surveys. They are one of the cornerstones of good game management.

[Alberta'sGod'sCountry]

So how do they determine when that 15% can be sustained again. Seems like it is a drastic descision to shut it all to draw. Has the ball has been dropped in terms of population management surveys. One would think it would be a progressional thing rather then instant. I work and hunt in 337 and 338 and spend upwards 3/4 of the year put there and there is lots of moose. Particularly last year. Way more then the year before.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I hope you aren't suggesting people don't accurately fill out or don't fill out at all the surveys. They are one of the cornerstones of good game management.

I agree with you and nope not at all...no mention of the sort (no words in my mouth please ). My point is a voluntary survey is only as accurate as the information they get from the folks willing to volunteer it.

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Percentage of harvest allocated is based on number of participants so more would be better you'd think. Bowhunting permit sales have only increased slightly in recent years. I hate to see any group lose opportunity but it's also important that harvest is allocated fairly among all user groups. No one group should have to bear all of the reduction in opportunity.

Once something goes on draw has it ever been taken off draw? How do they accurately determine AFTER something has gone on draw that part of the harvest method has changed? (how do they know archery harvest rates dropped from 15% to 10%???) Likely if someone doesn't fill a draw during archery they are going to switch to rilfe and fill it that way anyhow.....then there is no way in heck the draw conditions will be removed.

So even if partcipant numbers go up if there is no "general archery" season....then there is no measurement to take to remove draw conditions....15% of what harvest? 10% of what harvest? see what I what I mean.....

ONLY way to do it IMHO, would be to split the draw and have separate draw licenses for archery and rifle...as it is now in most places they are lumped together.

LC

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I agree with you and nope not at all...no mention of the sort (no words in my mouth please ). My point is a voluntary survey is only as accurate as the information they get from the folks willing to volunteer it.



Once something goes on draw has it ever been taken off draw? How do they accurately determine AFTER something has gone on draw that part of the harvest method has changed? (how do they know archery harvest rates dropped from 15% to 10%???) Likely if someone doesn't fill a draw during archery they are going to switch to rilfe and fill it that way anyhow.....then there is no way in heck the draw conditions will be removed.

So even if partcipant numbers go up if there is no "general archery" season....then there is no measurement to take to remove draw conditions....15% of what harvest? 10% of what harvest? see what I what I mean.....

ONLY way to do it IMHO, would be to split the draw and have separate draw licenses for archery and rifle...as it now in most places they are lumped together.

LC

I totally see what you mean and I understand the concerns but the only other option would seem to be to cut the number of draw tags available to rifle hunters further increasing their wait times...is that fair? They've already seen wait times double and triple in many zones in the past few years while archers have been able to hunt yearly. Something has to give.

Just noticed your edit....seperate rifle and archery draws are one of the options on the table. Nothing has been decided yet.

[Huntnut]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Once something goes on draw has it ever been taken off draw?

LC

Yep-Elk in 526. Went from genreal to fully closed to anterless on draw only to anterless and antlered on draw to where it is now-general on bull and draw on anterless. Mind you this was over a time period of over 20 years.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Huntnut

Yep-Elk in 526. Went from genreal to fully closed to anterless on draw only to anterless and antlered on draw to where it is now-general on bull and draw on anterless. Mind you this was over a time period of over 20 years.

I guess there is hope.....athough it is faint....

LC

[petew]

We go on draws and the outfitter tags allow non residents to hunt every year.

[Huntnut]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I guess there is hope.....athough it is faint....

LC

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by petew

We go on draws and the outfitter tags allow non residents to hunt every year.

Don't forget landowner tags!

Without proper record keeping, is there an actual way to qualify hunter harvest percentages ? I mean how do we really know what they really are with it being mandatory .

[Alberta'sGod'sCountry]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Don't forget landowner tags!

Without proper record keeping, is there an actual way to qualify hunter harvest percentages ? I mean how do we really know what they really are with it being mandatory .

Exactly

[crownb]

Originally Posted by Alberta'sGod'sCountry

So how do they determine when that 15% can be sustained again. Seems like it is a drastic descision to shut it all to draw. Has the ball has been dropped in terms of population management surveys. One would think it would be a progressional thing rather then instant. I work and hunt in 337 and 338 and spend upwards 3/4 of the year put there and there is lots of moose. Particularly last year. Way more then the year before.

Your statement proves the point,if there is more moose than before it only stands true that the bowhunter harvest would be greater.I am a bow hunter but the harvest of moose in the rut has frankly become way to efficient, and with it being a general tag before there is no way to regulate the moose populations anymore, at least when there is draws given out you can have a fairly educated guess on how many moose have been taken. I am in favor of this simply because of all the years of applieing for draws in the rifle time frame only to find that alot of the bulls were harvested in the early bow season. Sheephunter is right you cant please everybody all the time. To fix this problem you almost have to open all zones for archery just to spread around the glut of bowhunters who storm to 338 and 337 because of location.

[terry b]

I believe that the native people need a lesson on conservation and need to be regulated on their hunting. I am new to hunting 5 years now and when I go moose hunting with my bow all I see and hear are guns and natives. talked to one last year standing on the road by his truck rifle in hand and wearing crocks. It is crap what they do to wild life buddy of mine hunts 338 and 14-15 years Ago Indians came from sask. with a refer truck and a winch shot every moose they saw and if the winch did not reach on to the next one!
Bow hunters not the problem

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Ya, it sounds like a lot of the mule deer zones will go on draw. Seems the archers are quite successful in a large number of them. It's a difficult task I'm sure dividing the harvest up equally amoung all the user groups.

as a bowhunter im sad to see opportunity lost.....but as a conservationist and concerned hunter, im in favor of doing whats best for the animal populations. i have no firsthand knowledge of the zones in this thread, but i know of a few around the province for a few species that likely should go to draw for archers and soon. and no....im not talking about border zones for mules that were pounded to all hell with the cwd nonsense compounded by the 10/11 winter.

[JohninAB]

Originally Posted by terry b

I believe that the native people need a lesson on conservation and need to be regulated on their hunting. I am new to hunting 5 years now and when I go moose hunting with my bow all I see and hear are guns and natives. talked to one last year standing on the road by his truck rifle in hand and wearing crocks. It is crap what they do to wild life buddy of mine hunts 338 and 14-15 years Ago Indians came from sask. with a refer truck and a winch shot every moose they saw and if the winch did not reach on to the next one!
Bow hunters not the problem

Come on, there is no basis in fact for this comment. Been working and hunting in 338 since 1990. Last year seen a lot of moose. We have a honey hole in 338 where every year we got at least one moose with our bows.

Problem in my mind is oil and gas with increased access, fragmentation of habitat and loss of habitat. Then add in new and improved gear and increased hunter pressure and moose harvest numbers went thru the roof.

[Alberta Bigbore]

Originally Posted by terry b

I believe that the native people need a lesson on conservation and need to be regulated on their hunting. I am new to hunting 5 years now and when I go moose hunting with my bow all I see and hear are guns and natives. talked to one last year standing on the road by his truck rifle in hand and wearing crocks. It is crap what they do to wild life buddy of mine hunts 338 and 14-15 years Ago Indians came from sask. with a refer truck and a winch shot every moose they saw and if the winch did not reach on to the next one!
Bow hunters not the problem

Wow that crazy, Government should just let them use horses and sharp pointed sticks. Its not hunting unless that freezer truck is riding on some Chrome 22's.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Once something goes on draw has it ever been taken off draw? How do they accurately determine AFTER something has gone on draw that part of the harvest method has changed? LC

Increased auto collisions and agricultural complaints will increase draw #'s and/or change seasons/harvest goals.

[crownb]

Originally Posted by terry b

I believe that the native people need a lesson on conservation and need to be regulated on their hunting. I am new to hunting 5 years now and when I go moose hunting with my bow all I see and hear are guns and natives. talked to one last year standing on the road by his truck rifle in hand and wearing crocks. It is crap what they do to wild life buddy of mine hunts 338 and 14-15 years Ago Indians came from sask. with a refer truck and a winch shot every moose they saw and if the winch did not reach on to the next one!
Bow hunters not the problem

My dad and uncle saw this first hand. Natives from saskatchewan with two refer trucks. They had woman and children pushing bush shooting rabbits and chickens, while there would be half a dozen men sitting on the road waiting at the cutline. They would shoot everything that came out and the same as terry says if it died to far in the bush they just left it. Why would they work that hard when you can get an easier one next cutline. This is disgusting for years in 338 the only bulls we could get were way and i mean way back in the swamp and they were usually big old tough eating ones. It only takes one incident like this and then peoplke wonder about why you complain about native so called hunting, it has to stop

[heartshot]

Hey you can tell yourself whatever you want but the reason for the majority of changes to the draw system happen for on reason, OUTFITTERS!!
We loose more hunting opportunities every year so that more non-resident hunting tags can be issued to outfitters.

Outfitting is destroying hunting in alberta.

[heartshot]

Lose i mean

[duffy4]

Originally Posted by heartshot

Hey you can tell yourself whatever you want but the reason for the majority of changes to the draw system happen for on reason, OUTFITTERS!!
We loose more hunting opportunities every year so that more non-resident hunting tags can be issued to outfitters.

Outfitting is destroying hunting in alberta.

And you can tell yourself what ever you want as well.

When the bow hunters harvest exceeds 15% of the allowable harvest then they are required to have a special licence draw tag. And that is what I am telling myself, that is what F&W does.

[Alberta'sGod'sCountry]

Well if the archers are that efficient in thier kills (which is not the case when only 2 moose went down out of almost a dozen friends who live and religiously bow hunt out here) then this dicusssuion will most certainly be on next year. And its not not for a lack of not seeing them. Wmu 339 which must have a heathly population since no action was taken is in for a pounding. So instead of realizing this and maybe closing it to draw the people that we pay to manage would rather deal with the problems they have created with late action as a bigger one arises in plain view. Cause of course the surveys and info has been gathered for 339 to and it is just peachy. Maybe all the wolves and other predators will move there too cause there's no moose in 337 and 338. With all the new roads and cutlines and line of sight issues it's the rifles that are more effective out here not bows. Or maybe that spolighting is in fact an acceptable means of harvest for a certain group of people. That is a little unnerving coming across that at 1am on a callout in august. Reported it only to be told yeah they actually can. Fact is I don't believe for second archers are taking more then 15%. This is political. Probably some fuzzy bunny herders trying to make a stand.

[crownb]

The zone 338 has several moose camps during the rut and from what I have seen and heard the last two years the harvest looks to be around 35 percent of the 15 hunters I know. There is alot of moose being taken out of this zone but generally nothing big.I dont believe this is political and I strongly feel this was the right decision.

[curtisb]

A lot of good points in here guys...

I'll still maintain my stance though. Harvest regardless; SRD has absolutely no idea how many moose are in these zones.
The numbers of hunters and success mentioned in this thread likely represent as good (or better) of random sample as SRD will ever get with their harvest surveys. To add to this, the amount of kills mentioned/represented as a part of this "random sample" (assumed majority bulls, as cow wasn't available in 338, and good luck in the rut with the bow...) better represent conservation and maintaining the heard rather than harming populations in any sort of way.

*If I'm reading correctly, they are opening the draw for the rut to rifle too??? (i didn't notice this in the draw booklet...)
This is not going to be good, for the moose, the hunters - I'd predict 100% success for the most incompetent of hunter if this is actually the case...maybe then the predators would move along and the 20 year cycle can run it's course as mentioned.