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  #31  
Old 10-20-2012, 11:55 PM
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Thanks Randy, I'll check it out. My optimum power on my '06 and my 7'08 is roughly x7.5. I knew what the +/- in inches was for my Burris on my '06 at various distances at x14 magnification so I might as well check it out for x9 magnification on the Zeiss. If it's +/- an inch or two I'm good with that for hunting. I'll give up a little accuracy, but not much, for x1.5 magnification.

I think that I might buy a second Zeiss Conquest in order to simplify things.
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  #32  
Old 10-21-2012, 07:39 AM
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After having tried a few different bdc scopes I decided to try a mildot scope with mil adjustment turrets. It is hands down the simplest system I have ever used I love mine. Just a thought.Wally
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  #33  
Old 10-21-2012, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
If the secondary reticles are on the second focal plane their sub tension will change with magnification. That's how you adjust the Rapid Z for your particular load....you adjust the magnification according to the Zeiss calculator. This might help you understand a bit better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRmn...eature=g-all-u
Sheephunter,
Thanks for the link. Video was a great explanation for the "scope challenged" people such as myself! I do not have a "Z" but another model BDC and your instruction was so much better than the manufactures instructions.
Thanks again.
Gunny
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  #34  
Old 10-21-2012, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
If the secondary reticles are on the second focal plane their sub tension will change with magnification. That's how you adjust the Rapid Z for your particular load....you adjust the magnification according to the Zeiss calculator. This might help you understand a bit better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRmn...eature=g-all-u
Actually, you dont need the calculator at all - in fact I'd recommend against it. For exampe, with Zeiss Rapid Z 600, zero for 200 and then shoot the 600 yard crosshair at 600 yards. If it hits low, reduce power (increase subtension), and if hits high, then increase power (reduce subtension). You can adjust the power/subtension while looking through the scope and should be able to zero at 600 (e.g., find the proper magnification setting) in 1-2 shots. Once confirmed at 600, everything between 200 and 600 will be on for hunting purposes, although field validation should always be conducted for those ranges too. This to me is the most practical approach, as it will tell you (the shooter) the actual setting in the field conditions you are shooting and more importantly, if you have any business shooting that far in the first place.

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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
If you choose your reticle correctly for the trajectory of your load, the reticle will calibrate at close to the maximum magnification of the scope.
^^^ like this
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  #35  
Old 10-21-2012, 11:22 AM
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Actually, you dont need the calculator at all - in fact I'd recommend against it.
I use the calculator to select a reticle that is most suitable for the trajectory of my load. If you select an unsuitable reticle for your load, you pretty much defeat the purpose of the reticle, which is to make longer range shooting quicker and easier.

Once I have the scope zeroed at 200 yards,I shoot to do the final calibration. If you feed in the proper data,my own shooting has proven the calculated correct magnification to be very close.
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  #36  
Old 10-21-2012, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I use the calculator to select a reticle that is most suitable for the trajectory of my load. If you select an unsuitable reticle for your load, you pretty much defeat the purpose of the reticle, which is to make longer range shooting quicker and easier.

Once I have the scope zeroed at 200 yards,I shoot to do the final calibration. If you feed in the proper data,my own shooting has proven the calculated correct magnification to be very close.
I would say that it is more important to shoot the rifle and ammo combination to validate actual bullet drop, maybe even more so before selecting an appropriate reticle. Otherwise you're really only guessing. Garbage in - garbage out.
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  #37  
Old 10-21-2012, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by depopulator View Post
Actually, you dont need the calculator at all - in fact I'd recommend against it. For exampe, with Zeiss Rapid Z 600, zero for 200 and then shoot the 600 yard crosshair at 600 yards. If it hits low, reduce power (increase subtension), and if hits high, then increase power (reduce subtension). You can adjust the power/subtension while looking through the scope and should be able to zero at 600 (e.g., find the proper magnification setting) in 1-2 shots. Once confirmed at 600, everything between 200 and 600 will be on for hunting purposes, although field validation should always be conducted for those ranges too. This to me is the most practical approach, as it will tell you (the shooter) the actual setting in the field conditions you are shooting and more importantly, if you have any business shooting that far in the first place.
I've always advocated confirming your reticle...it just seems to make sense to use the calculator to get you at the very worst close to the proper magnification rather than using up a lot of ammo to close in on it. Your method seems a bit backward to me. Why not use all the tools available to help you? The calculator is amazingly accurate.....I'd say you are crazy not to use it.
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  #38  
Old 10-21-2012, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
I've always advocated confirming your reticle...it just seems to make sense to use the calculator to get you at the very worst close to the proper magnification rather than using up a lot of ammo to close in on it. Your method seems a bit backward to me. Why not use all the tools available to help you? The calculator is amazingly accurate.....I'd say you are crazy not to use it.
I agree. Now that I know what the optimum power is supposed to be I have a point to start at and I can head to the range to confirm that it is correct. I can't confirm anything based on only one shot at various distances though and I would use a minimum of a 3 shot groups to confirm my main point of impact.

Honestly, who confirms/zeros their rifle based on one shot?

I still have to check the site that enhtr mentioned. More knowledge before I head to the range...........
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  #39  
Old 10-21-2012, 09:18 PM
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Of course the calculator is useful for initial setting - kind of like boresighting. But I have seen on numerous occasions the ballistic calculator giving the wrong dope, as much as 2MOA at 600 yards in one case (that’s 12 inches)with my 7mmRM and 162 SST's this past summer. I needed to drop my input velocity by 100 fps from what my chrono and calculator told me to get everything lined up precisely.

And assuming your shooting a properly zeroed rifle (a given i figured), 1-2 shots is all that is required to validate field bullet drop and suntension setting. But more shots are always better!
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  #40  
Old 10-21-2012, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by depopulator View Post
Of course the calculator is useful for initial setting - kind of like boresighting. But I have seen on numerous occasions the ballistic calculator giving the wrong dope, as much as 2MOA at 600 yards in one case (that’s 12 inches)with my 7mmRM and 162 SST's this past summer. I needed to drop my input velocity by 100 fps from what my chrono and calculator told me to get everything lined up precisely.

And assuming your shooting a properly zeroed rifle (a given i figured), 1-2 shots is all that is required to validate field bullet drop and suntension setting. But more shots are always better!
If you were a foot out I can pretty well guarantee it wasn't the computer program at fault but rather one of the variables entered. I'd guess bullet BC. That can be a hard number to get an accurate denotation for. As you said, garbage in...garbage out. It is a good reminder to check secondary zeros though.
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  #41  
Old 10-22-2012, 06:36 AM
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Yes, advertised BC vs real commonly introduces error - in my case I adjusted MV to compensate. But there is a lot of potential eror in all the input variables and that is my point. If one gets a couple variables wrong (how many actully chrono their loads, measure sight height, etc ?), then the calculator has limited utility, and can actually give one a false sense of LR accuracy and capability. It's a fine line....
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  #42  
Old 10-22-2012, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by depopulator View Post
Yes, advertised BC vs real commonly introduces error - in my case I adjusted MV to compensate. But there is a lot of potential eror in all the input variables and that is my point. If one gets a couple variables wrong (how many actully chrono their loads, measure sight height, etc ?), then the calculator has limited utility, and can actually give one a false sense of LR accuracy and capability. It's a fine line....
Ya for sure, it is only as good as the data entered. We shot a couple rifles a little over a month ago...a 30-06 and a 338WM...both with factory ammo and both with brand new RZ600 scopes on them. Just by utilizing the factory ammo data in the program, both rifles were bang on at 600 yards so the program does work when the data entered is correct but as always, you need to shoot at those ranges to confirm.

I'm not sure what you mean you adjusted the muzzle velocity to compensate.
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  #43  
Old 10-22-2012, 10:44 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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I'm not sure what you mean you adjusted the muzzle velocity to compensate.
It sounds like he simply downloaded the cartridge slightly, to reduce the muzzle velocity, so the trajectory matched the hash marks. Or if you are at less than a maximum load, you could increase the muzzle velocity to compensate.
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  #44  
Old 10-22-2012, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
It sounds like he simply downloaded the cartridge slightly, to reduce the muzzle velocity, so the trajectory matched the hash marks. Or if you are at less than a maximum load, you could increase the muzzle velocity to compensate.
That's why I asked him. If your scenario is the case, why not just adjust the magnification or change zero to match the load?
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  #45  
Old 10-22-2012, 01:01 PM
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That's why I asked him. If your scenario is the case, why not just adjust the magnification or change zero to match the load?
__________
I would not resort to that method myself, but if the trajectory of the load is already too flat for the reticle, you can't calibrate by adjusting the magnification. You can play with the zero range to try and adapt the reticle to make it work somewhat better, but to me, that defeats the purpose of the Rapid Z reticles. The whole advantage of having hashmarks labelled with ranges, as in 300 yards or 400 yards, is lessened when the main reticle represents 180 yards. and the 500 reticle represents say 525 yards. As distance increases, it gets progressively worse, so the 700 yard hash mark could easily represent 750 yards. To me, when that happens, the Rapid Z system no longer offers any advantage.
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Last edited by elkhunter11; 10-22-2012 at 01:17 PM.
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  #46  
Old 10-22-2012, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
The whole advantage of having hashmarks labelled with ranges, as in 300 yards or 400 yards, is lessened when the main reticle represents 180 yards. and the 500 reticle represents say 475 yards.
According to the Zeiss data on my rifle with x7.5 magnification and a 200 yd zero, my hash marks are zero'd as follows:

Bar 3 = 301 yds
Bar 4 = 397 yds
Bar 5 = 500 yds
Bar 6 = 600 yds

I can live with that.
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  #47  
Old 10-22-2012, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterDave View Post
According to the Zeiss data on my rifle with x7.5 magnification and a 200 yd zero, my hash marks are zero'd as follows:

Bar 3 = 301 yds
Bar 4 = 397 yds
Bar 5 = 500 yds
Bar 6 = 600 yds

I can live with that.
Makes me glad I can use my Leupold at 10X (maximum) and assign my B&C bars what they need to be. Much simpler and more user friendly.
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  #48  
Old 10-22-2012, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I would not resort to that method myself, but if the trajectory of the load is already too flat for the reticle, you can't calibrate by adjusting the magnification. You can play with the zero range to try and adapt the reticle to make it work somewhat better, but to me, that defeats the purpose of the Rapid Z reticles. The whole advantage of having hashmarks labelled with ranges, as in 300 yards or 400 yards, is lessened when the main reticle represents 180 yards. and the 500 reticle represents say 525 yards. As distance increases, it gets progressively worse, so the 700 yard hash mark could easily represent 750 yards. To me, when that happens, the Rapid Z system no longer offers any advantage.
By adjusting zero on some cartridges that are too flat you can indeed make the hashmarks yardage indicated. I remember you talking about doing this exact thing once

And, for a handful, the system just doesn't work perfectly and you are right there is no advantage other than your secondary reticles are numbered and you are not required to count them each time you make a shot. Truthfully, for something that shoots too flat for the Rapid Z, I'd recommend a turret scope with yardage indicated turrets anyhow.
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  #49  
Old 10-22-2012, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterDave View Post
According to the Zeiss data on my rifle with x7.5 magnification and a 200 yd zero, my hash marks are zero'd as follows:

Bar 3 = 301 yds
Bar 4 = 397 yds
Bar 5 = 500 yds
Bar 6 = 600 yds

I can live with that.
What load...what scope and what reticle. That is unusual to have to go that low with the proper scope.
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  #50  
Old 10-22-2012, 01:37 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Quote:
According to the Zeiss data on my rifle with x7.5 magnification and a 200 yd zero, my hash marks are zero'd as follows:

Bar 3 = 301 yds
Bar 4 = 397 yds
Bar 5 = 500 yds
Bar 6 = 600 yds
Which scope do you have? If it is a 3-9x scope, it means that you have chosen a suitable reticle. Even with a 3.5-10x, that is a decent fit. If you had gone with the RZ 800 reticle, you would not come close to using the maximum magnification if you wanted to use the hashmarks.

And once again, your results depend on the data that you enter, so if you don't use the actual velocity of the load in your rifle, and the B.C. of the actual bullet, the results could vary. Velocities published by the manufacturers can easily fall 100fps or more short in individual rifles, which can be a factor at longer distances.

The worst situation is the one that I used as an example previously, where your load shoots flatter than any of the available Rapid Z reticles. You can't calibrate by adjusting magnification, so you can either attempt a band aid fix by playing with the zero range, which isn't a proper solution, or you have to look at other options than a Rapid Z reticle.
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  #51  
Old 10-22-2012, 01:42 PM
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Here is mine with a Leupold 3.5-10X40 with the B&C reticle at 10X.

150 TSX, 3250 fps, never over 3” high 0.408 G1 Zero at 250 yards

50 +0.7”
100 +2.1”
150 +2.4”
200 +1.8”
250 ZERO
300 -3.0”
350 1st Bar
400 ½ 1st & 2nd
450 2nd bar
520 Small bar
575 Post
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  #52  
Old 10-22-2012, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
You can't calibrate by adjusting magnification, so you can either attempt a band aid fix by playing with the zero range, which isn't a proper solution,
How is that not the proper solution when you end up with yardage indicated secondary reticles as a result?
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  #53  
Old 10-22-2012, 01:47 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Quote:
Truthfully, for something that shoots too flat for the Rapid Z, I'd recommend a turret scope with yardage indicated turrets anyhow
I found a BDC reticle that much better suits the trajectory, and I find it much quicker and easier than twisting turrets.

Quote:
How is that not the proper solution when you end up with yardage indicated secondary reticles as a result?
I would rather have no numbers next to the hashmark, than have the wrong numbers. By using a 170 yard zero, I could get the RZ800 reticle to work somewhat close at 500 yards, but by 600 yards, using the 600 yard hashmark would result in the shot being inches high. By 700 yards, using the 700 yard hashmark, could lead to a clean miss on the vital zone of a deer sized animal.
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  #54  
Old 10-22-2012, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
I'm not sure what you mean you adjusted the muzzle velocity to compensate.
Umm...I picked up my Iphone and entered into the BulletflightL2 app a reduced muzzle velocity (2950 fps) instead of the chrony'd 3050 fps - it's gave me a corrected dope (I dial turrets) and I carried on shooting gongs! So, yeah....my point...field validation.......never mind.....
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  #55  
Old 10-22-2012, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I would rather have no numbers next to the hashmark, than have the wrong numbers. By using a 170 yard zero, I could get the RZ800 reticle to work somewhat close at 500 yards, but by 600 yards, using the 600 yard hashmark would result in the shot being inches high. By 700 yards, using the 700 yard hashmark, could lead to a clean miss on the vital zone of a deer sized animal.
Apparently you misread my question elk...I said how was it the wrong solution when it ended up with yardage indicated secondary reticles...not when it ended up with secondary reticles that weren't yardage indicated. In many cases it can compensate for too flat of a trajectory perfectly...in others not so much. You indicated that it was wrong regardless. I say it's not the best solution when it doesn't work but it sure seems to a viable one when it does....as I indicated.
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  #56  
Old 10-22-2012, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterDave View Post
According to the Zeiss data on my rifle with x7.5 magnification and a 200 yd zero, my hash marks are zero'd as follows:

Bar 3 = 301 yds
Bar 4 = 397 yds
Bar 5 = 500 yds
Bar 6 = 600 yds

I can live with that.
I don't know what loads you are building......but what bullet wt are you using? If you aren't already, 30.06 likes a 165 gr bullet. If you're using 180 now.....changing that out for 165 grs will bring up your optimum

and....that optimum mag thing is only if you choose to use it. Live targets are rearely standing at those precise distances lol. Print a table or reticle reticle using max power on your scope, laminate it and slap it on your rifle but with an elastic.

My 25.06......with factory Fusion ammo, 120 grs, my "optimum magnification" is 8.7 (on a rapidZ600 3-9X Zeiss).

The Strelok app prints great reticles. You can email them to yourself and print them off as you like.
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  #57  
Old 10-22-2012, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ehntr View Post
I don't know what loads you are building......but what bullet wt are you using? If you aren't already, 30.06 likes a 165 gr bullet. If you're using 180 now.....changing that out for 165 grs will bring up your optimum

and....that optimum mag thing is only if you choose to use it. Live targets are rearely standing at those precise distances lol. Print a table or reticle reticle using max power on your scope, laminate it and slap it on your rifle but with an elastic.

My 25.06......with factory Fusion ammo, 120 grs, my "optimum magnification" is 8.7 (on a rapidZ600 3-9X Zeiss).

The Strelok app prints great reticles. You can email them to yourself and print them off as you like.
I'd have to check with Vanessa but on her 30-06 shooting 165 grain GMX, the optimum power is around 9.2 on a 3.5-10x scope with RZ600 reticle.
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  #58  
Old 10-22-2012, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
What load...what scope and what reticle. That is unusual to have to go that low with the proper scope.
Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 Rapid Z600.

30.06 with 165gr Nosler ballistic tips

56.5gr IMR 4350

Muzzle velocity 2807 fps (Not 100% sure that this is correct)

Optimum magnification = 7.56

.....................................

I may buy the same scope for my 7mm08

7mm08 with 140gr Nosler ballistic tips

45gr IMR 4350

Used a MV of 2781 fps (Not 100% sure that this is correct)

Optimum magnification = 7.48
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  #59  
Old 10-22-2012, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by HunterDave View Post
Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 Rapid Z600.

30.06 with 165gr Nosler ballistic tips

56.5gr IMR 4350

Muzzle velocity 2807 fps (Not 100% sure that this is correct)

Optimum magnification = 7.56

.....................................

I may buy the same scope for my 7mm08

7mm08 with 140gr Nosler ballistic tips

45gr IMR 4350

Used a MV of 2781 fps (Not 100% sure that this is correct)

Optimum magnification = 7.48
Ah okay, that does make sense then.
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  #60  
Old 10-22-2012, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ehntr View Post
Print a table or reticle reticle using max power on your scope, laminate it and slap it on your rifle but with an elastic.

The Strelok app prints great reticles. You can email them to yourself and print them off as you like.
I'm trying to avoid having to use charts taped to the butt of my rifle. I did that when I had the Burris on my '06 and I was swapping from 165gr and 180gr bullets. I'd sooner give up x1.5 magnification than do that.

I downloaded the Strelock app for my iphone last night but I haven't played with it yet. I'm very interested in seeing what the difference in zero for the hash marks are at max magnification. I also want to see how my Burris Fullfield II fairs. It'll determine whether I'll keep it or replace it with another Zeiss Conquest.
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