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Old 03-02-2013, 09:15 AM
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Default Proposed Archery Mule Deer Going to Draw - Letter

Attached is a letter I wrote regarding how the archery mule deer draw was imo improperly forced on resident hunters without first considering other users.

I thought some on here may like to read my take on the story. From the letter...

Quote:
Key Take Aways Based on the Proposed Wildlife Management Change – Antlered Mule Deer Archery to Draw -AESRD
1. ESRD is restricting resident harvest rates to manage antlered mule deer without first considering other groups in which some have “unlimited” quotas.
2. ESRD is using the 15% archery harvest hurdle to force resident archers into a mule deer draw on certain WMU’s but have not added other harvest groups to the “total harvest” denominator.
3. ERSD has not finalized the five year outfitter allocation process but is moving quickly to meet harvest goals by restricting resident harvest and or opportunity.
4. ESRD has not published or assembled harvest data for outfitters and landowners yet is quick to use the 25% participation GHS data to restrict resident archery harvest.

Further, 16,716 resident bowhunters hunted in mule deer in 2011 (under the general archery season). This compares to 13,454 succesful applicants in the antlered mule deer special license (- rifle season, out of 64,519 applications). This shows that there are more hunters utilizing the general bowhunting antlered mule deer opportunity than are currently successful in the resident/non-resident antlered mule deer (rifle) draw system.
Also attached is the AESRD proposal that I quote numerous times in the letter.
Again, this is my interpretation of the injustice that has lead to this proposed change.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Archery Mule Deer Draw Letter ii1.pdf (369.3 KB, 140 views)
File Type: pdf Antlered MUDE Special Licence for Archery.pdf (278.0 KB, 84 views)
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Old 03-02-2013, 09:39 AM
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Amazing work deer hunter...have the changes been finalized or are they still on the table?
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by J.B. View Post
Amazing work deer hunter...have the changes been finalized or are they still on the table?
I dont know if they have been finalized but a unfortunate note was just sent to me:

Quote:
I haven't heard too much on the outfitter review - did hear that they will not be impacted in their allocations for 2013 and will call ESRD next week to see if that rumor is just that. We have been told repeatedly that their archery allocations for mule deer were gone in those affected WMUs
So if this is in fact how it goes down, residents will go on archery draw (draw code 13) for mule deer while outfitter allocations will remain untouched in those WMU's. To me this is completly unacceptable but rings very clear as to the direction of the govt with respect to resident opportunity.

in other words, its not too late to write a letter to represent your feelings on this.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:47 PM
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Bump for more awareness.
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:00 PM
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From your own quote:
"Further, 16,716 resident bowhunters hunted in mule deer in 2011 (under the general archery season). This compares to 13,454 succesful applicants in the antlered mule deer special license (- rifle season, out of 64,519 applications). This shows that there are more hunters utilizing the general bowhunting antlered mule deer opportunity than are currently successful in the resident/non-resident antlered mule deer (rifle) draw system. "

So aproximately 13,000 rifle hunters (from a much larger pool) had to run the draw gauntlet to get a crack at a 1 month season, but 16,000 bowhunters could just walk on with no draws and hunt for 3 months... On the surface that seems to me to be exactly why draws need to be applied to bowhunters. Obviously, however, it would be good to know what the hunter success rates are. If bowhunters are successful 1% of the time then let them hunt all year round with no draw for all I care, but all those bowhunting shows and commercials suggest the success rate is higher. LOL
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:17 PM
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I see where your coming from.

the harvest rates are figured from harvest surveys and an archery harvest over 15% by WMU could propose an archery draw. Yet the harvest numbers from outfitters and landowner tags do not appear to be used when calculating the percentage. And these are signifigant harvests given the number of tags they have by WMU.
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
From your own quote:
"Further, 16,716 resident bowhunters hunted in mule deer in 2011 (under the general archery season). This compares to 13,454 succesful applicants in the antlered mule deer special license (- rifle season, out of 64,519 applications). This shows that there are more hunters utilizing the general bowhunting antlered mule deer opportunity than are currently successful in the resident/non-resident antlered mule deer (rifle) draw system. "

So aproximately 13,000 rifle hunters (from a much larger pool) had to run the draw gauntlet to get a crack at a 1 month season, but 16,000 bowhunters could just walk on with no draws and hunt for 3 months... On the surface that seems to me to be exactly why draws need to be applied to bowhunters. Obviously, however, it would be good to know what the hunter success rates are. If bowhunters are successful 1% of the time then let them hunt all year round with no draw for all I care, but all those bowhunting shows and commercials suggest the success rate is higher. LOL
Obviously you don't bowhunt or you would realize how tough it is to harvest an animal with archery.I bow and rifle hunt but I enjoy hunting with bow a lot more.The longer season does not mean a sure thing but it gives you time to pattern and set up for many different situations.By the time November rolls around I hope to have got lucky enough to harvest a deer with a bow because when gun season opens in the area where I hunt it gets crazy with so many hunters.I understand that this happens every year so I accept that fact but it doesn't mean that bow hunters have a free for all for three months!By the way the last time I read the regs it stated you could hunt general with rifle from sep 1 to nov 30.This to me seems like a little more than 3 months to hunt with a gun so who really does have the advantage?
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by RACKER View Post
Obviously you don't bowhunt or you would realize how tough it is to harvest an animal with archery.I bow and rifle hunt but I enjoy hunting with bow a lot more.The longer season does not mean a sure thing but it gives you time to pattern and set up for many different situations.By the time November rolls around I hope to have got lucky enough to harvest a deer with a bow because when gun season opens in the area where I hunt it gets crazy with so many hunters.I understand that this happens every year so I accept that fact but it doesn't mean that bow hunters have a free for all for three months!By the way the last time I read the regs it stated you could hunt general with rifle from sep 1 to nov 30.This to me seems like a little more than 3 months to hunt with a gun so who really does have the advantage?
Stop analizng it in such ways, all you need to know is its the big bad archery hunter that put this province in the position its in. Damn the bow hunter
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by packhuntr View Post
Stop analizng it in such ways, all you need to know is its the big bad archery hunter that put this province in the position its in. Damn the bow hunter

Yikes...he he
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RACKER View Post
Obviously you don't bowhunt or you would realize how tough it is to harvest an animal with archery.I bow and rifle hunt but I enjoy hunting with bow a lot more.The longer season does not mean a sure thing but it gives you time to pattern and set up for many different situations.By the time November rolls around I hope to have got lucky enough to harvest a deer with a bow because when gun season opens in the area where I hunt it gets crazy with so many hunters.I understand that this happens every year so I accept that fact but it doesn't mean that bow hunters have a free for all for three months!By the way the last time I read the regs it stated you could hunt general with rifle from sep 1 to nov 30.This to me seems like a little more than 3 months to hunt with a gun so who really does have the advantage?
Your wasting your breath. Just let it go to a draw and hope to get our own archery pool of tags. Spread the numbers around a bit. I hunt both ways as well. The anti-archery clique will never understand.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 338Bluff View Post
Your wasting your breath. Just let it go to a draw and hope to get our own archery pool of tags. Spread the numbers around a bit. I hunt both ways as well. The anti-archery clique will never understand.
As it is proposed, there will be no separate archery pool of tags. You will need to get drawn under draw code 13 which is getting very busy with new resident and non-resident applicants.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:00 PM
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For the short term I understand there is not a separate pool. For the future? I have heard some rumbling that it might happen.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 338Bluff View Post
For the short term I understand there is not a separate pool. For the future? I have heard some rumbling that it might happen.
in what dimension should there be? Mule deer is a mule deer! Tag is a tag. If you don't like it use your rifle. This is the best thing to happen to Alberta since the oilsands.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:21 PM
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I have heard this all is around the IBM RELM system and the expense required to add a separate draw code.
And without a separate draw code, there may be no resident bowhunters hunting that year in certain WMU's. Oufitters will still continue to be able to use their bow allocations and this proposal becomes beneficial to them. To me, this is a clear loss of resident opportunity. Must be why Rhino likes it.

I feel we need to get the other users in line with Policy before they beat back residents. Residents are forced to deal with harvest % in WMU's which are easliy outlined. Outfitters use the SMA black box to try to muddy the waters. And their harvest % dont matter and arent described in the proposed AESRD archery mule deer draw study/proposal.

Does anyone know which WMU's make up the SMA's? It is a big secret.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:26 PM
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in what dimension should there be? Mule deer is a mule deer! Tag is a tag. If you don't like it use your rifle. This is the best thing to happen to Alberta since the oilsands.
Time will likely prove that the oil sands are likely the worse thing that ever happened to Alberta (might take a few generations to see it happen) All depends on perspective.

You seem to be pretty emotional about all this. Why the attitude?

Thanks for the insult. What did I ever direct at you personally

This debate has finally proven to be a complete waste of energy.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 338Bluff View Post
Time will likely prove that the oil sands are likely the worse thing that ever happened to Alberta (might take a few generations to see it happen) All depends on perspective.

You seem to be pretty emotional about all this. Why the attitude?

Thanks for the insult. What did I ever direct at you personally

This debate has finally proven to be a complete waste of energy.
how did I insult you personal? I just want to know why you think bow hunters should have a special pool of tags when as a group they have had special treatment over rifle hunters for years
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deer Hunter View Post
I have heard this all is around the IBM RELM system and the expense required to add a separate draw code.
And without a separate draw code, there may be no resident bowhunters hunting that year in certain WMU's. Oufitters will still continue to be able to use their bow allocations and this proposal becomes beneficial to them. To me, this is a clear loss of resident opportunity. Must be why Rhino likes it.

I feel we need to get the other users in line with Policy before they beat back residents. Residents are forced to deal with harvest % in WMU's which are easliy outlined. Outfitters use the SMA black box to try to muddy the waters. And their harvest % dont matter and arent described in the proposed AESRD archery mule deer draw study/proposal.

Does anyone know which WMU's make up the SMA's? It is a big secret.
don't have any bow tags thank. I don't mind waiting longer to draw a mule deer for the sake of equality.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:38 PM
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On the last set of data....

It would be nice to see the actual tag numbers depicted for outfitter. The % is a little misleading. If someone is skimming they might tag it for total tags. I had to do a double take.

So in a zone that has 30 tags the outfitter has 12%...which would be approximately 4.

I don't really see the problem. Someone else might.. and that would be their opinion.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:41 PM
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how did I insult you personal? I just want to know why you think bow hunters should have a special pool of tags when as a group they have had special treatment over rifle hunters for years
Rifle hunters can always go buy a bow and hunt both seasons. I'm pretty sure it is not an exclusive club.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by 338Bluff View Post
On the last set of data....

It would be nice to see the actual tag numbers depicted for outfitter. The % is a little misleading. If someone is skimming they might tag it for total tags. I had to do a double take.

So in a zone that has 30 tags the outfitter has 12%...which would be approximately 4.

I don't really see the problem. Someone else might.. and that would be their opinion.
Those are actual total outfitter tag numbers not percents. I will clean it up. Sorry that was sloppy..

Que... Rhino....
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:52 PM
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Rifle hunters can always go buy a bow and hunt both seasons. I'm pretty sure it is not an exclusive club.
I know we can and sime do. Personally i would like to hunt mule deer for years to come and if everyone was allowed to bag a buck every year the population would take a big hit. Solution? Draw. Yaaaa. Game management right. What's wrong with waiting for a draw like the rest of us I ask????
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:03 PM
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I know we can and sime do. Personally i would like to hunt mule deer for years to come and if everyone was allowed to bag a buck every year the population would take a big hit. Solution? Draw. Yaaaa. Game management right. What's wrong with waiting for a draw like the rest of us I ask????
Some don't wait. NR, front of the line.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
What's wrong with waiting for a draw like the rest of us I ask????
There is nothing wrong with waiting to draw, as long as non residents can't bypass the wait by booking with an outfitter.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:16 PM
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There is nothing wrong with waiting to draw, as long as non residents can't bypass the wait by booking with an outfitter.
should we abolish outfitter tags and let nr apply in our draw system, like they so kindly let us do. Do you think that the same American comes every year. Mostly someone different. Hunts are booked 3-4 years ahead of time. Some think that the only american that hunts comes to Canada every year to hunt mule deer with the same outfitter. Not the case.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhino81 View Post
should we abolish outfitter tags and let nr apply in our draw system, like they so kindly let us do. Do you think that the same American comes every year. Mostly someone different. Hunts are booked 3-4 years ahead of time. Some think that the only american that hunts comes to Canada every year to hunt mule deer with the same outfitter. Not the case.
I can name you one that's been here at least six years in a row, and at least five of those with the same outfitter.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 338Bluff View Post
Your wasting your breath. Just let it go to a draw and hope to get our own archery pool of tags. Spread the numbers around a bit. I hunt both ways as well. The anti-archery clique will never understand.
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I can name you one that's been here at least six years in a row, and at least five of those with the same outfitter.
I know of many repeat customers also.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:47 PM
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Pretty sure if you read my prior post I said "mostly different customers". It is hard for a guy to repeat with the same outfitter unless they have the money to deposit for upcoming years. Tags are often sold through booking agents or the outfit. So my unanswered question to you guys is should we allow Americans to apply in the draw and abolish outfitter allocations. They are nice enough to allow us to hunt and draw down there. Your thoughts.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
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Pretty sure if you read my prior post I said "mostly different customers". It is hard for a guy to repeat with the same outfitter unless they have the money to deposit for upcoming years. Tags are often sold through booking agents or the outfit. So my unanswered question to you guys is should we allow Americans to apply in the draw and abolish outfitter allocations. They are nice enough to allow us to hunt and draw down there. Your thoughts.
In short no, I don't think they should be eligible to hunt in areas where residents are on a draw. So scrap the allocations or severely limit them. One point to ponder, if you remove one outfitter allocation for archery, statistical you could probably give out 8 to 10 resident archery tags, based on success ratios.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikergolf View Post
In short no, I don't think they should be eligible to hunt in areas where residents are on a draw. So scrap the allocations or severely limit them. One point to ponder, if you remove one outfitter allocation for archery, statistical you could probably give out 8 to 10 resident archery tags, based on success ratios.
wrong!! Chances are if they took a bow allocation resident tags in the draw would go up one. Depending on the historical data in surrounding sma's. Why 8-10?
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
In short no, I don't think they should be eligible to hunt in areas where residents are on a draw
+1,Let the non residents hunt only where a resident can hunt without having to draw a tag.
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