berlin wall

[Gust]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

Yet that poor person probably does not have a real need for it.

I have a friend who is in her mid 60s who just had a tumor removed from a breast, and is now not able to work for some time due to chemo. She lost her apartment because her pension and benefits don't pay the cost of the rent.

She has moved in to her daughter's place for now, and her daughter went to social services to get money from them, and they said she is only eligible for $103 per month, not even any extra for a bus pass.

Yet I know several welfare bums who have never worked, have never been without a roof over their head, and have done nothing with their lives but sit on welfare. Always had enough for a case of beer and drugs and cigarettes.

For me the problem is we give money to those who can work, yet we punish those who have always worked, but find themselves on tough times.

Having gone through the misery of proving I was waiting for spine surgery and being denied basic disability for months after my own savings ran out, I discovered a cruel truth.

I brought this up on another thread and tell the story often; I was told that, if I state that I am a junky, I can receive $1400-$1700 per month as I would be considered unemployable (this would also inclde a free cell phone). I refused not only on principle but on the fact that I was both crippled and unemployable AND WAITING FOR SURGERY!

Look at it this way,,,, If I am a big crimelord "smuggling" in literal tons of heroine into a wescoast port town (we'll say kitimat) and you are a higher ranking bureaucrat who rubberstamps provissions in a welfare system, and I offer you 10% kickback from the drug-profits, would you...

make sure those who actually paid into the system receive a fair and balanced pay-out while they are unemployable?

OR, would you

make sure those who are drug addicts have more money to squander on heroin?

C'mon, 10% kickback??? mucho dinero's, are ya crazy, I'll pre-pay you on half a billion profit right now in small bills or to an off shore account,, $50 million right now, yours!!

Or, you could divide the govt funds correctly?

What's it going to be rwm?

If you think I'm nut's for even suggesting this as a possible truth, go take a peak on the CSIS webpage and search counterfitting and money laundering. One paper opens with the claim of senior ranking govt employees/consultants being the first area for money laundering crime in Canada.

So RWM, $50 million (which is peanuts in the drug trade, even after the product is stepped on).

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Gust

Having gone through the misery of proving I was waiting for spine surgery and being denied basic disability for months after my own savings ran out, I discovered a cruel truth.

I brought this up on another thread and tell the story often; I was told that, if I state that I am a junky, I can receive $1400-$1700 per month as I would be considered unemployable (this would also inclde a free cell phone). I refused not only on principle but on the fact that I was both crippled and unemployable AND WAITING FOR SURGERY!

Look at it this way,,,, If I am a big crimelord "smuggling" in literal tons of heroine into a wescoast port town (we'll say kitimat) and you are a higher ranking bureaucrat who rubberstamps provissions in a welfare system, and I offer you 10% kickback from the drug-profits, would you...

make sure those who actually paid into the system receive a fair and balanced pay-out while they are unemployable?

OR, would you

make sure those who are drug addicts have more money to squander on heroin?

C'mon, 10% kickback??? mucho dinero's, are ya crazy, I'll pre-pay you on half a billion profit right now in small bills or to an off shore account,, $50 million right now, yours!!

Or, you could divide the govt funds correctly?

What's it going to be rwm?

If you think I'm nut's for even suggesting this as a possible truth, go take a peak on the CSIS webpage and search counterfitting and money laundering. One paper opens with the claim of senior ranking govt employees/consultants being the first area for money laundering crime in Canada.

So RWM, $50 million (which is peanuts in the drug trade, even after the product is stepped on).

I have no knowledge of kickbacks or payouts to our politicians, but I do suspect it does happen. How much I have no idea.

All I know is our system is broken. We need accountability. I don't understand why we will support a junkie yet we let the injured or sick suffer. For me the issue is the junkie is in the position they are in by their own hand, and the injured or sick didn't. Yet we enable and in fact reward those who are unworthy of sympathy. I would support a junkie to take a drug rehabilitation program, and force them into it, but that is not what we do. We pay for them to continue to be junkies. We let too many people live on programs such as AISH, and we do not check on them to confirm that they can't work or support themselves. I know of many mentally handicapped people who hold down jobs and are able to support themselves despite their mental capacity. How is it possible they can support themselves, yet some bums can live on AISH, or programs for junkies?

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

What I think we have lost sight of is the difference between those who are poor and those who are too lazy to work.

People too lazy to work don't collect wages... so whats your point?

What is a livable wage in Alberta now?

Is it just shy of 29 000 per year?

Because that is the average annual income in Canada now.
And while that average might include those that work only a couple days per week... it also includes those working 2 or 3 jobs for 60-80 hours per week.

Yup... its increased by a whoppjng 400 dollars in the last 30 years.

Now... how much have profits and executive salaries increased in the same time?

They've increased by 100%... several times over.

Am I the only guy who remembers when minimum wage and 40 hours per week could actually keep a roof over your head and feed you?

When I was 17 and on my own I made $4.90 an hour (minimum wage)and managed with a room mate.
A couple years later I supported my live in gal...aka Mrs Pesky on 8 bucks an hour.
That was the appartment, food, bills and a car payment.
It was paycheck to paycheck but we managed and we could still go out to dinner (pizza) once every two weeks.

How many minimum wage jobs does it take to do that now?

Whats minimum wage now?

?12 bucks an hour?

They doubled and a bit in the last 30 years while everything else has increased by 5 or 600%.

But yeah... you are probably right... its just lazyness.

[chimpac]

When I went to school Kruschev was banging his shoe on the podium in the US house of Rep.
My social studiies teacher said that communism in Russia was the great experiment. It did not look to me like an experiment, but a permanent successful force that might take over the world.

So the experiment has been done. Russia and China are doing private enterprise to get out of poverty.

What have we learned about the value of the free private enterpise system vs. the communist (socialist) system?

Judging by coments posted on this thread, some people havent learned much.

Few Canadians even recognize the socialist Govt. systems we are using now, today.

Our socialist systems are not delivering the goods as well as private enterprize could do it.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by pesky672

People too lazy to work don't collect wages... so whats your point?

What is a livable wage in Alberta now?

Is it just shy of 29 000 per year?

Because that is the average annual income in Canada now.
And while that average might include those that work only a couple days per week... it also includes those working 2 or 3 jobs for 60-80 hours per week.

Yup... its increased by a whoppjng 400 dollars in the last 30 years.

Now... how much have profits and executive salaries increased in the same time?

They've increased by 100%... several times over.

Am I the only guy who remembers when minimum wage and 40 hours per week could actually keep a roof over your head and feed you?

When I was 17 and on my own I made $4.90 an hour (minimum wage)and managed with a room mate.
A couple years later I supported my live in gal...aka Mrs Pesky on 8 bucks an hour.
That was the appartment, food, bills and a car payment.
It was paycheck to paycheck but we managed and we could still go out to dinner (pizza) once every two weeks.

How many minimum wage jobs does it take to do that now?

Whats minimum wage now?

?12 bucks an hour?

They doubled and a bit in the last 30 years while everything else has increased by 5 or 600%.

But yeah... you are probably right... its just lazyness.

Pesky, our welfare roles have increased, and that is the issue I was talking about. We have more people who can work but refuse to that we support. And that is why our tax dollars don't support all the things it used to, despite the increase in residents.

Do you know anyone who is a generational welfare bum? I do. I have a cousin who has never worked a day in her life. She had 3 kids, and all three were taken away from her. She still has a roof over her head, and enough money to smoke and drink and do drugs. Her kids are now in their early 20s, and they don't do anything either. One is in and out of jail, the other two have kids with different women, and neither kid support these children.

I know several other families in the same situation living down the block from us. In fact there are many in that condo complex that are generational welfare bums. Spit out a kid from a different guy ever couple years, and never have to work.

[Winch101]

Bessie funniest thing I have seen on here .....

The Gap between the haves and have nots
Is not as wide as the gap tween the edumacated
And the high school drop out . Fortunately there is
A social system to be worked by the impoverished
And unscrupulous .

As a true Torie I think we have to much socialism now
I don't think I should have to pay because you ****ed away
The education opportunity , drugged out ,your self esteem makes you think welfares OK. Maybe your second or third generation welfare now ,we'll if your not the lead dog
The view never changes .

In the mid sixties,living under the Burrard street bridge,selling the
Georgia Strait on a street corner , I had a lot of utopian ideas ,
Favourite book ...Animal Farm ...I had snatched defeat from the jaws of success.
Not to lazy to bitch just to lazy to work. Watched a guy OD one night
Sorta changed my perspective on the current Utopia.....

People fall through the cracks , Communism is very elitist , corrupt
To the tenth degree ,

[Sneeze]

Yes! Communism is great?

It's going to work so well here as I can tell already.
Almost everybody will be a teacher and call non-teachers stupid trolls when they attempt to start a discussion. It will be a utopia.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

I have no knowledge of kickbacks or payouts to our politicians, but I do suspect it does happen. How much I have no idea.

All I know is our system is broken. We need accountability. I don't understand why we will support a junkie yet we let the injured or sick suffer. For me the issue is the junkie is in the position they are in by their own hand, and the injured or sick didn't. Yet we enable and in fact reward those who are unworthy of sympathy. I would support a junkie to take a drug rehabilitation program, and force them into it, but that is not what we do. We pay for them to continue to be junkies. We let too many people live on programs such as AISH, and we do not check on them to confirm that they can't work or support themselves. I know of many mentally handicapped people who hold down jobs and are able to support themselves despite their mental capacity. How is it possible they can support themselves, yet some bums can live on AISH, or programs for junkies?

You think?

Anyone who thinks SNC-Lavelin wasn't bribbing Canadians for all of those military contracts has never dealt with them.

And it was at all levels.

When I found myself working in a QA/oversight capacity alongside them overseas... the first thing they did was offer me a job and 6 figures.
Same same for my boss.
Later I was to learn that they had offered "retirement jobs" to the guys before us and after us and still later it became obvious that this was how the whole organization operated.

And does anyone remember the Air Bus thing or all that moeny that went missing when the Liberals were on top?
I rather doubt that none of that money found its way back to someone in government.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

Pesky, our welfare roles have increased, and that is the issue I was talking about. We have more people who can work but refuse to that we support. And that is why our tax dollars don't support all the things it used to, despite the increase in residents.

Do you know anyone who is a generational welfare bum? I do. I have a cousin who has never worked a day in her life. She had 3 kids, and all three were taken away from her. She still has a roof over her head, and enough money to smoke and drink and do drugs. Her kids are now in their early 20s, and they don't do anything either. One is in and out of jail, the other two have kids with different women, and neither kid support these children.

I know several other families in the same situation living down the block from us. In fact there are many in that condo complex that are generational welfare bums. Spit out a kid from a different guy ever couple years, and never have to work.

Yes they have and there is more to it than simple laziness although that does contribute.
The problem being that we now have more working poor than ever before and some of them will give up trying out of frustration.
Our current approach to social fairness teaches us that its almost impossible to get ahead despite hard work so many become apathetic...settle for less because less is enough when it takes no effort at all.
We are training people to default to these things because that social safety net is the only break they can catch.

I know one family like you descibe... welfare bums.... for decades.
I suspect that to be the case for a few others in our neighbourhood but I can't say for sure since I don't know their individual situations.
There is a low income housing complex near to us so that is to be expected.
If I lived in a richer neighbourhood... I wouldn't see it.
Neither would you.
Everyone on my street has a job but one street over...not so much.
IOW... you may be somewhat bias based upon what you see because of where you chose to live.
Poor people concentrate in poor neighbourhoods that border middle class neighbourhoods.
Does that bother me?
Yes but that problem has always existed and always will.
Some people are born to be mooches.
The problem there is the system of delivery.

We can minimize the numbers of people taking advantage of the safety net legitimatley or otherwise by being more socially responsible and less selfish in matters of wages and labor.

[chimpac]

Originally Posted by pesky672

Yes they have and there is more to it than simple laziness although that does contribute.
The problem being that we now have more working poor than ever before and some of them will give up trying out of frustration.
Our current approach to social fairness teaches us that its almost impossible to get ahead despite hard work so many become apathetic...settle for less because less is enough when it takes no effort at all.
We are training people to default to these things because that social safety net is the only break they can catch.

I know one family like you descibe... welfare bums.... for decades.
I suspect that to be the case for a few others in our neighbourhood but I can't say for sure since I don't know their individual situations.
There is a low income housing complex near to us so that is to be expected.
If I lived in a richer neighbourhood... I wouldn't see it.
Neither would you.
Everyone on my street has a job but one street over...not so much.
IOW... you may be somewhat bias based upon what you see because of where you chose to live.
Poor people concentrate in poor neighbourhoods that border middle class neighbourhoods.
Does that bother me?
Yes but that problem has always existed and always will.
Some people are born to be mooches.
The problem there is the system of delivery.

We can minimize the numbers of people taking advantage of the safety net legitimatley or otherwise by being more socially responsible and less selfish in matters of wages and labor.

Right now with the present centalized Govt system we have to hope that the few that are in charge get some new and better ways of delivering welfare and health care.
If we learned any thing from Russia's political experiment it is that the diverse good ideas that supply the goods needed for prosperity came from the private sector and local management.

Some established thinking has to change. There are those on the left and even maybe present management who think that no one should work for welfare.

I say every one who can work should work for what ever wage they can get and minimum wage be dammed! They could then bring their pay stub to the welfare payers and get their wages added to so they can live a decent life.

[Slash8]

Leave it.

[chimpac]

Now why would you say that? I thought I was on my way to convince Canadians to abandon their ruinous socialist systems. I am so disappointed.
You know that those who do not know the bad history of the past are bound to repeat it.

[nof60]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

Communism failed in Russia because they could not keep spending at the same rate as the US.

Communism is alive and well in other countries. China seems to be doing well. However the model of Marx has changed and evolved due to human nature and the corruption of power.

Our democracy is not a true democracy either. In my opinion there is no particular political plan that works when a nation gets large.

Seems as though the US cant keep up with US spending

[nof60]

Originally Posted by oldgutpile

If every successful (wealthy) person were to be responsible for 100 less fortunate, Capitalism as we know it would die. Success and wealth is the reward for hard work and risk in venture. What is the incentive for people to become successful, to create jobs, if they give it away to those who have not performed in a similiar fashion? Where is the incentive for those "less-fortunate" to go out and better themselves? "A fed dog wont hunt!"

Sounds suspiciosly like a monarchy ala britain circa 1500. I nominate chimpa to be the first serf.

[chimpac]

Originally Posted by chimpac

If every wealthy person took on as his dependants as many poor people in his neighborhood (100 mile radius) as he could afford it would be a very efficient delivery of welfare.
The wealthy wise people would be godfathers to those less fortunate. The god fathers would give wise council as well as pay for their material needs.

Originally Posted by oldgutpile
If every successful (wealthy) person were to be responsible for 100 less fortunate, Capitalism as we know it would die. Success and wealth is the reward for hard work and risk in venture. What is the incentive for people to become successful, to create jobs, if they give it away to those who have not performed in a similiar fashion? Where is the incentive for those "less-fortunate" to go out and better themselves? "A fed dog wont hunt!"

oldgutpile misread the post. 100 miles not 100 rich guys

[chimpac]

oldgutpile did not write 100 rich guys he wrote 100 less fortunate which should be 100 miles

[chimpac]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...h-care-system/

[double gun]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

?

That made my day.

[chimpac]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttgj-Twf2Bo

Here is a govt tax money welfare program in action. Public subsidized housing.
Canada's govt. programs for the care of the poor are not much different.

Different subject but these conditions are much the same in many parts of Africa.
North and south Rhodesia (sp?) (Zimbabwe) is going back to bush after the white farmers were run out and the farms given to Robert Magabes army buddys.

It is becoming more dangerous to live in South Africa since Mandella and the communist African National Congress rules.

Different subject but does USA have a gun problem or an African problem?