30-05 brass to 35 whelen

[buckbrushoutdoors]

what is the best way to make brass? fireforming or a resizing die?

[bigd]

I bought factory Remington cases for my Whelens. Can't be bothered to convert brass when factory brass is fairly readily available.

While I admit that I haven't researched the process, it seems to me that necking this case from .308 to .358 is a pretty big jump that could present issues. I'm sure others far more knowledgeable with this cartridge than I will have the answers you seek.

Just my take, YMMV.

[Dean2]

Just run them through the 35 Whelen FL sizing die and make sure you use Imperial wax lube inside the neck and on the exterior. If you have some sort of 338 WM die or a 338 federal etc die, or even just buy a 338 ball for your 35 Whelen dies dies and put it on for the first pass you can run them over that first and it will make necking up easier. If not straight 06 to 35 will work in one pass as long as you lube them well and use SMOOTH even pressure.

[DaleJ]

I would start with new brass, anneal it, and use tapered case neck expander, start with .323, .338, the .358. Check finished case necks with tube micrometer to make sure you have even expansion. Starting with new brass that one thin side on neck might not be worth using as thin side will expand first.
Another option is new brass for 35 Whelan.

[6.5 shooter]

Or just buy a 9.3x62!

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

I would start with new brass, anneal it, and use tapered case neck expander, start with .323, .338, the .358. Check finished case necks with tube micrometer to make sure you have even expansion. Starting with new brass that one thin side on neck might not be worth using as thin side will expand first.
Another option is new brass for 35 Whelan.

Dale

One point - when necking up that much I would not anneal till after. Annealing softens the brass and makes it more likely you will collapse the shoulder as you push it over the expander ball but you are right that going up in stages is easier.

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Dale

One point - when necking up that much I would not anneal till after. Annealing softens the brass and makes it more likely you will collapse the shoulder as you push it over the expander ball but you are right that going up in stages is easier.

Annealing to 700 F is too much for necking up. I use Markal crayons just past the torch to reach 450 F. That is the best temp I have found for necking up and down and moving shoulders. I use a bench-source annealing machine with two torches. I have found annealing to 700 F is too much, but sticking a crayon in the flame isn't for the faint of heart. So I'm not seeing an in-flame temp and that could be the difference.

I anneal before forming to reduce the effort required. If you cannot anneal before forming I would think you are getting temps too high. A few rounds get annealed with each reloading and they are annealed before getting sized too.

[connexion123]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

Or just buy a 9.3x62!

Booo yeah!!!

[Leeper]

I have been running 30/06 brass into my 35 Whelen sizing die for about thirty years now with no issues whatsoever. Most Whelen dies will have a tapered expander ball which eases the task. Use some lube inside the neck.
Fire forming with a blank load actually does a nicer job of forming but except for rare occasions, I don't see much point in shooting without bullets. I need the practice. Leeper

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Annealing to 700 F is too much for necking up. I use Markal crayons just past the torch to reach 450 F. That is the best temp I have found for necking up and down and moving shoulders. I use a bench-source annealing machine with two torches. I have found annealing to 700 F is too much, but sticking a crayon in the flame isn't for the faint of heart. So I'm not seeing an in-flame temp and that could be the difference.

I anneal before forming to reduce the effort required. If you cannot anneal before forming I would think you are getting temps too high. A few rounds get annealed with each reloading and they are annealed before getting sized too.

This is a section of a article on annealing from the 6BR forum. If you are annealing to only 450 or 460 degrees then you have not softened the brass and might as well form the brass as it came. There is a very narrow temperature band where proper annealing occurs. Feel free to do as you like but the metallurgy doesn't change.

Whole article is here: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Optimal Case Temperatures for Successful Annealing
Brass is an excellent conductor of heat. A flame applied at any point on a case for a short time will cause the rest of the case to heat very quickly. There are several temperatures at which brass is affected. Also, the time the brass remains at a given temperature will have an effect. Brass which has been "work hardened" (sometimes referred to as "cold worked") is unaffected by temperatures (Fahrenheit) up to 482 degrees (F) regardless of the time it is left at this temperature. At about 495 degrees (F) some changes in grain structure begins to occur, although the brass remains about as hard as before--it would take a laboratory analysis to see the changes that take place at this temperature.

The trick is to heat the neck just to the point where the grain structure becomes sufficiently large enough to give the case a springy property, leaving the body changed but little, and the head of the case virtually unchanged.

If cases are heated to about 600 degrees (F) for one hour, they will be thoroughly annealed--head and body included. That is, they will be ruined. (For a temperature comparison, pure lead melts at 621.3 degrees F).

The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.

Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft. From this discussion we can see that there are four considerations concerning time and temperature:

1. Due to conduction, the amount of heat necessary to sufficiently anneal the case neck is great enough to ruin the rest of the case.

2. If the case necks are exposed to heat for a sufficient period of time, a lower temperature can be used.

3. The longer the case necks are exposed to heat, the greater the possibility that too much heat will be conducted into the body and head, thereby ruining the cases.

4. The higher the temperature, the less time the case necks will be exposed to heat, and there will be insufficient time for heat to be conducted into the body and head.

[qwert]

Originally Posted by Dean2

The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.

I have a TSC0350(old #) 28343(new#) TEMPILSTIK 350 C / 662 F,
which I find very useful when annealing. Placing a mark down the length of a case tells me how far the annealing reached as the mark will only be partially melted.

http://www.tempil.com/products/tempilstik-original/

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by Dean2

This is a section of a article on annealing from the 6BR forum. If you are annealing to only 450 or 460 degrees then you have not softened the brass and might as well form the brass as it came. There is a very narrow temperature band where proper annealing occurs. Feel free to do as you like but the metallurgy doesn't change.

Whole article is here: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Optimal Case Temperatures for Successful Annealing
Brass is an excellent conductor of heat. A flame applied at any point on a case for a short time will cause the rest of the case to heat very quickly. There are several temperatures at which brass is affected. Also, the time the brass remains at a given temperature will have an effect. Brass which has been "work hardened" (sometimes referred to as "cold worked") is unaffected by temperatures (Fahrenheit) up to 482 degrees (F) regardless of the time it is left at this temperature. At about 495 degrees (F) some changes in grain structure begins to occur, although the brass remains about as hard as before--it would take a laboratory analysis to see the changes that take place at this temperature.

The trick is to heat the neck just to the point where the grain structure becomes sufficiently large enough to give the case a springy property, leaving the body changed but little, and the head of the case virtually unchanged.

If cases are heated to about 600 degrees (F) for one hour, they will be thoroughly annealed--head and body included. That is, they will be ruined. (For a temperature comparison, pure lead melts at 621.3 degrees F).

The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.

Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft. From this discussion we can see that there are four considerations concerning time and temperature:

1. Due to conduction, the amount of heat necessary to sufficiently anneal the case neck is great enough to ruin the rest of the case.

2. If the case necks are exposed to heat for a sufficient period of time, a lower temperature can be used.

3. The longer the case necks are exposed to heat, the greater the possibility that too much heat will be conducted into the body and head, thereby ruining the cases.

4. The higher the temperature, the less time the case necks will be exposed to heat, and there will be insufficient time for heat to be conducted into the body and head.

Dean,
With all due respect I've read that article. I am not sure what temp my brass reaches because I check the temp at the next station out of the flame. I have used 700 degree F Tempilaq but found it softened the brass too much. The results I get are arrived at by trial and error. If doing it properly doesn't work I try something else. The whole idea of annealing is to soften brass to where it can be formed and have it remain at the dimensions it was formed too.

You stated you anneal after resizing and I'm trying to understand that. I load my match ammo for uniform neck tension and have presses that indicate tension differential. Again what the neck tension is absolutely I don't know, getting them in same tension range will improve shot to shot uniformity both on paper and on the chronograph.

This stupid reloading game hardly ever produces same results for different shooters!

[qwert]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

I load my match ammo for uniform neck tension and have presses that indicate tension differential. Again what the neck tension is absolutely I don't know,

More information please.

Originally Posted by DaleJ

This stupid reloading game hardly ever produces same results for different shooters!

Aint that the truth.

It seems to be more art than science, and like most art it gets better with practice. I learn most from my mistakes.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Dean,


This stupid reloading game hardly ever produces same results for different shooters!

No truer words were ever spoken when it comes to reloading. It really is a case of so MANY variables that results differ widely because one cannot account for ALL of the things in play at any one given time.

[DaleJ]

Qwert,
Have a K M arbor press that actuates a dial run out indicator, via a Belville washer stack in the press head, however is better suited to small calibers and short bullets. If you can seat your bullets, using Wilson inlines, with your thumbs this press will indicate seating force differential.

Have a hydraulic press with a manual bypass that I can thread reloading dies into. With bypass fully open ram travel is nil. At as little as 5 psi ram will travel. The hydraulic pressure gauge will reveal pressure required to resize a piece of brass. Annealed brass for 7mm WSM will resize with by-pass pressure at 35 psi, where non annealed will take 50 psi. I can see the difference with seating dies too. That hydraulic press can be used with both threaded and arbor press dies. All this info is useless unless notes are kept and numbers recorded.

Original press use is to draw bullet jackets.

[qwert]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Qwert,
Have a K M arbor press that actuates a dial run out indicator, via a Belville washer stack in the press head, however is better suited to small calibers and short bullets. If you can seat your bullets, using Wilson inlines, with your thumbs this press will indicate seating force differential.

Have a hydraulic press with a manual bypass that I can thread reloading dies into. With bypass fully open ram travel is nil. At as little as 5 psi ram will travel. The hydraulic pressure gauge will reveal pressure required to resize a piece of brass. Annealed brass for 7mm WSM will resize with by-pass pressure at 35 psi, where non annealed will take 50 psi. I can see the difference with seating dies too. That hydraulic press can be used with both threaded and arbor press dies. All this info is useless unless notes are kept and numbers recorded.

Original press use is to draw bullet jackets.

Nice use of tooling. Thanks for sharing.

When we understand our tool systems and materials we can often increase their usability, and the experience of others can stimulate our imagination as to the possibilities of alternate uses for tooling.

The use of a dial indicator to measure force by the deflection of a Belleville stack is very interesting and has my imagination going right now.

Similarly the use of hydraulic pressure could be very useful but I suspect it is more prone to inconsistency due to temperature and friction, especially with a large cylinder and relatively low pressures.

Neat stuff.

[DaleJ]

There is another loading press that uses an oil filled cylinder with an internal return spring to monitor pressure differential via a pressure gauge. If I can't remember where I seen it soon, I will just build it!

[qwert]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

There is another loading press that uses an oil filled cylinder with an internal return spring to monitor pressure differential via a pressure gauge. If I can't remember where I seen it soon, I will just build it!

PM coming