Ladder test

[Cowtown guy]

Shot my first ladder test yesterday. Here's the results. Not what I was expecting at all.
7 shots total. Test was with Lil-Gun. 22 Hornet and 40 grain Bergers.
Started at 10 and went up to 11.2 grains in .2 grain increments.
Thoughts????
Here is a picture of the 3 shot groups with these loads.

[Cowtown guy]

Should have stated the point of aim is the small x to the left of the ladder test grouping

[tchardy1972]

Just curious, are either shots #4 or #5 10.8 grains of powder? You could shoot the ladder from farther away.

[Cowtown guy]

Best groups would have been 2 and 3. 10.2 and 10.4. The 10.8 group is to the right of the written numbers.

Scope was dialed for a different load and the poi landed 21/2 inches right of where I was aiming.

[Moo Snukkle]

Just to confirm, each charge weight was shot as a 3 shot group? Point of impact should mean squat at this point right? So you would take the smallest group and start playing with seating depths? Have never done this so just trying to get a handle on it.

[twofifty]

I'm having a hard time coming to a firm conclusion, because there is no degree of correlation between charge weight and bullet vertical spread.

Perhaps redoing the ladder test, but with bullets seated closer and further from the lands? Looking at your notes, it seems like you're as far out as the magazine allows...too bad as the book allows an extra 8 thou out.

I'd also suggest shooting it at 200 or 300 if you can.
This will give trajectory differences that are not apparent up close a chance to show themselves on target. A cluster of loads that are within several decimals of each other might just show up. Pick the middle load for further development.

edit: remember a consistent cool down time between each shot. I prop the rifle -bolt open- in a vertical rifle rack, 5 minutes in the shade, to speed cooling. On really hot days like we have now, cooling takes longer. Your first shot or two should not be taken on your target of record since it will be out of a clean cool bore.

[bloody arrow]

here is a good video on ladder test.
http://8541tactical.com/?s=ladder

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by twofifty

I'm having a hard time coming to a firm conclusion, because there is no degree of correlation between charge weight and bullet vertical spread. Me too. That is exactly why I posted this.

Perhaps redoing the ladder test, but with bullets seated closer and further from the lands? Looking at your notes, it seems like you're as far out as the magazine allows...too bad as the book allows an extra 8 thou out. I am seated as far in as I can. I am already seated past the ogive by a few thousandths. If this thing actually recoiled I would be crimping.

I'd also suggest shooting it at 200 or 300 if you can.
This will give trajectory differences that are not apparent up close a chance to show themselves on target. A cluster of loads that are within several decimals of each other might just show up. Pick the middle load for further development.

edit: remember a consistent cool down time between each shot. I prop the rifle -bolt open- in a vertical rifle rack, 5 minutes in the shade, to speed cooling. On really hot days like we have now, cooling takes longer. Your first shot or two should not be taken on your target of record since it will be out of a clean cool bore.

Thanks for the tips. I will be trying 200 next time. 300 is just too much of a stretch for this little thing. The slightest puff is going to blow it all over the place I think.

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by Moo Snukkle

Just to confirm, each charge weight was shot as a 3 shot group? Point of impact should mean squat at this point right? So you would take the smallest group and start playing with seating depths? Have never done this so just trying to get a handle on it.

There are 3 shot groups yes. I loaded 4 of each round. I shot the first of each charge weight into the ladder test. Then I shot a 3 shot group.

I only noted the point of impact because the groups appear to be beside the labelled charge weights. I labelled the target before stapling it to the board. When I shot the first round at the ladder test, I noticed that they were all going to print to the right. I couldn't screw with the scope to adjust the windage as this would affect the ladder test.

I normally take the smallest and play from there with the seating depth. The problem is that there is a mile of freebore in this throat. I have it seated as far out as I can to make it function in the magazine, yet the ogive is actually inside the case mouth with this bullet.

[twofifty]

sorry, I overlooked the light bullet and the velocity.

Why not try and run your development at the longest range that you would normally shoot varmints with this rifle: 150 yds? 200 yds? Whatever that is, show up real early at the range so that you can beat the morning's first real wind.

[tchardy1972]

I kind of like the 11.2 grain target. The more I look at it the better it looks. With the rifle having such a long throat your pressure is probably lower than you think and your load testing is just starting to find the top node.

The hornet is a tough one to master. I had mine reamed to a k-hornet and all the quirks went away.

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

I kind of like the 11.2 grain target. The more I look at it the better it looks. With the rifle having such a long throat your pressure is probably lower than you think and your load testing is just starting to find the top node.

The hornet is a tough one to master. I had mine reamed to a k-hornet and all the quirks went away.

I agree with you about the 11.2 group. That was the max that I had found with data and so only loaded to there. I have mic'd the brass and there is zero pressure signs with this load so far. I can go back and play with it from here now.

I was watching the whole 7 Rem mag thread a few weeks back and that is what got me thinking about the whole ladder test thing. I have never actually done one before.

Next up is a farther confirmation target with 5 shot groups to see what else I can get this to do. I'm thinking I will go out to 200. That is a viable distance for this load so I may as well fid out what it does out there.

[ramonmark]

Looking at the ladder I'd say shots 6 and 7 are the winners. And the fact that you took a 3 shot group with each just proved it. If I were you, I'd load up a bunch at 11.1gr and hit the gopher fileds. Call'er a day.

[Dean2]

If these are 22 Hornet, and that is what the notes look like, then you are still WAY light in your loads. With Remington brass the max published loads are 13.5 grains of lil'Gun with a 40 grain BK or Vmax. Max load in WW brass is 13 grains.

You will see the vertical effect of the higher velocities much better at 200 or 300 yards than at 100. The Hornet can be shot very accurately at 300 yards. The 40 grain BK has enough BC that at 3100 fps it behaves pretty well in the wind. 10-11 grain spread probably only moved your velocity a max of 150 FPS, and the bullet will be travelling less than 2400 FPS, which is slower than even factory ammo. That and it is hard to see a 150 fps difference at 100 yards in terms of vertical.

I have a number of 22 Hornets. I load 12,6 grains of Lil'Gun, 40 BlitzKing, Federal Small pistol primers and WW brass. (WW brass holds about .75 grains less powder than the Rem.) I have shot this same load in literally dozens of 22 Hornets. All have shot it under 1 inch and many will shoot it into .3.

Here is a picture of a 3 shot group at 200 yards out of a Browning Micro using that same load. Target squares are 1/2" on a side.

Click on picture for larger view.

22 Hornet 40 BK Browning 600 Pixwl.jpg

[DaleJ]

Dean2, that's fine accuracy for a Hornet. No vertical at all. On a dead calm day that group would be tighter. Just wondering if you've seen any case rim thickness variation.

Cowtown guy, What dies are you using? What is your neck diameter with bullet seated? Reason I ask, I have a set of no longer used Wilson arbor press dies for 22 Hornet that made a huge difference in accuracy. The neck die uses a bushing to size the upper 3/8ths" or less of neck, leaving the lower neck same diameter as chamber. The bulge on the lower neck (this is my theory) centers the upper neck in the chamber. If you would like to try the Wilson in-line Hornet dies I would send them to you. You can use a drill press with a flat mandrel chucked in place of the arbor press.

[Dean2]

Dale

Here is some info you might find useful. It comes from measuring 22 Hornet brass for reforming to 17 Hornet. The data is courtesy of a fellow who goes by the handle Tilleyman from another forum..

[Cowtown guy]

Here is the data I was using.

Dale I am using RCBS dies. I can check tonight what the measurements are.

Thanks for the help guys.

[Cowtown guy]

A drill press? I will admit I have never used anything other than Hornady, Lee or RCBS.

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by Cowtown guy

A drill press? I will admit I have never used anything other than Hornady, Lee or RCBS.

Arbor press dies don't have threads. They are supposed to eliminate run out problems that may occur during machining of threaded press and dies. I use Wilson or Neil Jones seating dies for all my target cartridge bullet seating. They are faster and run out is as close to perfect as I'll ever get. The pictures show arbor press and drill press set up to be used as arbor press, of course you don't have drill press plugged in. So if you would want to try my Wilson dies but are without arbor press a drill press will work! A long, long time ago a 22 Hornet load development article was published in Precision Shooting magazine. I was searching through a pile of magazines trying to find the edition but didn't locate it.

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photo(48).jpg

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Arbor press dies don't have threads. They are supposed to eliminate run out problems that may occur during machining of threaded press and dies. I use Wilson or Neil Jones seating dies for all my target cartridge bullet seating. They are faster and run out is as close to perfect as I'll ever get. The pictures show arbor press and drill press set up to be used as arbor press, of course you don't have drill press plugged in. So if you would want to try my Wilson dies but are without arbor press a drill press will work! A long, long time ago a 22 Hornet load development article was published in Precision Shooting magazine. I was searching through a pile of magazines trying to find the edition but didn't locate it.

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That is pretty cool. Here I get to thinking that I am just barely getting to be a quasi veteran at this reloading stuff and then a new curveball gets pitched every once in a while.

I am 100% self taught so I have never had the opportunity of seeing this stuff in action.

I am going to see what I can find for a video on this stuff.

[DaleJ]

Dean2,
3100 fps is fairly wild velocity compared to the 2770 I recall getting with my Hornet, using IMR 4227. I don't think rim thickness varies enough to make sorting worthwhile. Neck thickness numbers from the charts you posted verify possible case stretching in shoulder area with out lubed expander ball. I think its time to dig up my Hornet again!

[DaleJ]

Cowtown.
When someone asks what loading press do you use and the reply is drill press they pretty much shrug you off as a moron.

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Cowtown.
When someone asks what loading press do you use and the reply is drill press they pretty much shrug you off as a moron.

LOL.

You know nothing of bullets and how the cartridges are put together right? Just a rank amateur? Too funny. I actually laughed when I read your comment.

I could see some folks wondering what you are talking about. I am having a little difficulty seeing how this will work.

Tomorrows exercise is to get on YouTube and see if I can track down a video or 2. My pillow is calling me right now.

[amosfella]

Try again, this time going 2 increments higher... Check the brass for signs of stress when shooting...

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Dean2,
3100 fps is fairly wild velocity compared to the 2770 I recall getting with my Hornet, using IMR 4227. I don't think rim thickness varies enough to make sorting worthwhile. Neck thickness numbers from the charts you posted verify possible case stretching in shoulder area with out lubed expander ball. I think its time to dig up my Hornet again!

If you check either Hogdons published data or Speers last volume you will find that Lil"Gun gives far higher velocities in the 221 FB, 218 Bee and 22 Hornet as well as the 22 K Hornet at much lower pressures than any other powder. The next fastest powders are H110 and 1680 and only the 1680 approaches Lil'Gun velocities. I have chronographed these loads many times and depending on barrel length anything from 2900 to 3100 FPS is easily obtained. The brass last more than 25 reloads so it isn't stressing the primer pockets or brass.

Cowtown Guy

With the Berger bullets that may be the right loads but with a 40 grain Vmax or BlitzKing there are lots of published loads at far higher weights, per my comments above.

[Cowtown guy]

Are the Blitzkings as long as the 40 grain Vmax? If so they are a no go for me with this magazine and the freebore that it is making. I loaded some of them up and the ogive is way inside the mouth. I don't know if this is a big deal or not. They look bloody silly though I'll say that.

[tchardy1972]

I use the 35gr vmax. They make gophers into splat.

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Arbor press dies don't have threads. They are supposed to eliminate run out problems that may occur during machining of threaded press and dies. I use Wilson or Neil Jones seating dies for all my target cartridge bullet seating. They are faster and run out is as close to perfect as I'll ever get. The pictures show arbor press and drill press set up to be used as arbor press, of course you don't have drill press plugged in. So if you would want to try my Wilson dies but are without arbor press a drill press will work! A long, long time ago a 22 Hornet load development article was published in Precision Shooting magazine. I was searching through a pile of magazines trying to find the edition but didn't locate it.

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Kind of like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbkYet59g7E

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Cowtown guy

Are the Blitzkings as long as the 40 grain Vmax? If so they are a no go for me with this magazine and the freebore that it is making. I loaded some of them up and the ogive is way inside the mouth. I don't know if this is a big deal or not. They look bloody silly though I'll say that.

The BK is very slightly shorter than the Vmax but not enough to make much difference. Given the short COAL you are using I presume you are shooting a CZ as they have very short magazines. On my CZs I actually lengthened the mag by shortening the plastic follower. If you want to order a longer one Calhoon makes and sells them. They also sell very good single shot followers that replace the mag and allow you to make the rounds as long as you want. As you can see from the target I posted I use 1.810 COAL. I use the Single shot follower shooting targets, and gophers and find it to be no inconvenience

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by Cowtown guy

Kind of like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbkYet59g7E

Someone should tell video narrator its easier to dispense powder from measure into scale pan, then into cartridge when weight is confirmed. Another problem with video is use of mallet. Neck sizing operation should be done in press, one stroke to size neck and knock out primer, then turn it over to push cartridge out of die. The picture using drill press setup shows a base under the die that us poor people without mallets have to use.