Subsistence hunting- OFFICIAL thread

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by SmokinJoe

Why didn't you call the authorities?

A couple of reasons. This was before cell phones were popular, they had already left their camp, and I wasn't about to abandon my weekend to go into town to find a phone to call it in. We just cleaned it up ourselves.

It wasn't just one aspect of what we came across that weekend, it was the whole package that in all honesty disgusted us.

[remmy300]

Originally Posted by iceburg

1)Is unlimited, unregulated harvesting

A) needed for survival of FN people in 2015?

Yes, there are still allot of cases of poverty on most if not all First Nations in Canada.

B) needed in order for the FN culture to be passed on from generation to generation

Absolutely, the teaching are sacred to us and have been passed down from generation to generation. We need to be able to teach our future generations about the circle of life and ensure they have respect for Mother Nature.

C) more of a luxury at this day and age, rather than a right needed for survival as was intended 150yrs ago

I don't think it's much of a luxury, the idea of it being unregulated and unlimited is a farce. We are regulated in what we can hunt and where, for example big horn sheep, or hunting in parks, or hunting outside of treaty territory.
Furthermore allowing meat to waste is an offence. Therefore taking more than you will use is a crime. And also goes against the teachings passed down to us

2) If there were to be limits and regulations put on harvesting, similar to what non FN people are ruled by, what negative effects would it have on the FN people?


This is how I would have answered as well, and my answer to number 2 would have been that hungry people would go without food.

Everyone needs to understand that there are chances for individuals to abuse any and all hunting rights/priveledges.
This is dangerously close to the question of is any hunting really absolutely needed? It opens up questions to sport and trophy hunting.

I wish I was better at quoting previous messages but bear with me...

Well I haven't read this whole thread but did read this... about teaching and passing down tradition. I understand the thought behind this but for the most part how seriously is this taken with the younger generation.

More than once i have witnessed first nations shooting at rather large herds of animals. One time there were 16 moose in a clearing 300 yards off the main road. 2 trucks of first nations pull up behind me. 6 guys jump our with rifles and start laying down lead. i get out and watch. 20 plus rounds fired and not one moose dropped within sight. 2 for sure were hit. Being that none dropped in sight they got in the truck and drove off. I took the plates down and contacted fish and wildlife. 2 days later i get a call as a follow up and they say the plates dont match the trucks. nothing they can do???

The same year I am at the Yaha Tinda in February, back when there were thousands of elk out there. me and buddy were videoing the herd when 3 trucks of FN fellas pull up and again start laying down lead. this time there were close to 25 rounds fired. There were 6 elk that fell within sight. the rest ran across the river. There just happens to be a wildlife corridor running through the flats. that just happened to be where trucks were parked and the shots fired. I walked down off the hill and had the camera by my side. i got all the plates, faces and a few names all on camera. I then followed the tracks going across the river. there were at least a half dozen more blood trails crossing the river. Needless to say not one of them followed the blood past the last elk that dropped.

I again contacted fish and wildlife. this time it was all on camera. everything. They requested the tape. I had a lot of stuff on that tape other than this. I send it in. 2 weeks later i get a call from the fish and wildlife saying there was not enough evidence. Oh and they need to keep the tape WTF. how much more can you want?

I know not everyone can be painted with the same brush but where is the respect for mother nature. That sure the heck isn't something i would want to teach or pass down to my kids or future generations.

I was in a hockey rink this weekend in BC. I listened to 2 FN fellas beside me. They were talking about moose hunting. One fella says he has shot 9 since christmas. the other fella says he has shot 13 this since august. It was all i could do to keep my mouth shut. Weather it is true or they were just puffing out their chests is one thing. 13 moose in 1 year. come one, 13 really.

It is one thing to talk about tradition and culture and passing down the knowledge and skills from generation to generation. my opinion is that each generation that passes cares less and less about tradition or history. Im talking all races. so for one to mention that the teachings need to be passed down, i think is a load of malarkey. The last time i checked its 2015!

my personal .02

[iceburg]

"I know not everyone can be painted with the same brush but where is the respect for mother nature. That sure the heck isn't something i would want to teach or pass down to my kids or future generations."

Well that's exactly what your doing. I'm not going to personalize this with incidences of poaching I've witnessed by non-aboriginals.

[iceburg]

I guess that's the problem with long threads, I stated earlier that alot of reserves have cultural awareness and hunting mentorship programs.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by iceburg

I guess that's the problem with long threads, I stated earlier that alot of reserves have cultural awareness and hunting mentorship programs.

The thing is,without limits or regulation, What 300 remmy described is ALLOWED to go on. Senseless and in 2015 there is absolutely no need for it. Even with limits and regulations hunting and subsistance is 100% achievable. Like I said earlier, no punishment, no crime, doesn't mean no problem though.

[crownb]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

The thing is,without limits or regulation, What 300 remmy described is ALLOWED to go on. Senseless and in 2015 there is absolutely no need for it. Even with limits and regulations hunting and subsistance is 100% achievable. Like I said earlier, no punishment, no crime, doesn't mean no problem though.

A huge x2

[iceburg]

The unwillingness or inability of the Crown to prosecute is a diff issue IMO, a concern of mine With limits is some elders/ ppl who can't get out then go without-

[SmokinJoe]

Made my points, heard the mods, I'm out.

[Full Curl Earl]

Manosteel, your comment regarding non treaty having to go to FN to get a tag is a dream you shall not see realized. I would expel all resources I have to ensure this. Hunting for my family, and generations of it, holds our roots to Mother Nature. We are involved in bettering the ecosystem and improving habitat, and keeping it spiritual. I have seen no evidence of this from FN in a very long while now.

[crownb]

Originally Posted by iceburg

The unwillingness or inability of the Crown to prosecute is a diff issue IMO, a concern of mine With limits is some elders/ ppl who can't get out then go without-

Well I have a solution, when I am successful in getting my draw, I then invest in buying my tag and attempting to harvest that animal, if I am successful I used to help out my grandparents when they were still here, the elderly that are to old to go out sure don't eat a lot, so they for sure didn't need countless moose, so in most cases people with able hands should help them out.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by iceburg

The unwillingness or inability of the Crown to prosecute is a diff issue IMO, a concern of mine With limits is some elders/ ppl who can't get out then go without-

Do you allow your elders to go without? I'm sure even with limits the younger generation would make sure this would never be the case. Like supporting children, seniors can still be taken care of.

A FN reserve with say 200 ppl, of the 200, 140 are of age, and ability to harvest game. Suppose there is a limit of one animal per person per species. 140 moose, 140 elk, 280 deer. Even IF wild game was the only source of meat for the reserve (which I doubt is the case with any reserve in Canada), there would be plenty of meat to go around, with plenty of abundance left over. All a limit and regulation would do is stop the abuse of the system, it wouldn't take any food out of the mouths of the hungry.

[crownb]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Do you allow your elders to go without? I'm sure even with limits the younger generation would make sure this would never be the case. Like supporting children, seniors can still be taken care of.

A FN reserve with say 200 ppl, of the 200, 140 are of age, and ability to harvest game. Suppose there is a limit of one animal per person per species. 140 moose, 140 elk, 280 deer. Even IF wild game was the only source of meat for the reserve (which I doubt is the case with any reserve in Canada), there would be plenty of meat to go around, with plenty of abundance left over. All a limit and regulation would do is stop the abuse of the system, it wouldn't take any food out of the mouths of the hungry.

After 20 some odd pages, it doesn't get anymore clearer that this, the math doesn't lie, I think this could be something all sides could work with.

[crownb]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Do you allow your elders to go without? I'm sure even with limits the younger generation would make sure this would never be the case. Like supporting children, seniors can still be taken care of.

A FN reserve with say 200 ppl, of the 200, 140 are of age, and ability to harvest game. Suppose there is a limit of one animal per person per species. 140 moose, 140 elk, 280 deer. Even IF wild game was the only source of meat for the reserve (which I doubt is the case with any reserve in Canada), there would be plenty of meat to go around, with plenty of abundance left over. All a limit and regulation would do is stop the abuse of the system, it wouldn't take any food out of the mouths of the hungry.

And those numbers do not even include fish netting, there should be an abundance of food on the reserves.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Moderating Team

This is getting very tiring and to the point of futility. If this is how the thread is going to continue, it would be a shame that is closed down when a person cant get a word in edgewise due to a select few being argumentative and overbearing, so this is you que to move on.......

Agreed what are you waiting for...I want to commend Joe for stepping up and sorry to see the unwarranted attacks he's facing for stepping up and trying to engage in a healthy debate.

As has been stated, this issue wont get resolved here and most of the debate was largely because of a cull on federal lands where for some reason Indians are allowed to shoot bulls and licensed hunters only allowed to put in for draws for cows. Someone somewhere established the rules of engagement so my advice is hate the game not the players...This cull should not be called a hunt...

[Don K]

Originally Posted by SmokinJoe

Give it a rest, Kurt on every single thread with something to do about an indian you have camped out on it till it got shut down. This one is no different. I'm sure there's gotta be something else you could do..

Not sure why you hate us so much, but sooner or later you need to come to terms with what the real problem is.

I'm with Kurt! Doesn't mean I hate FN people or am racist!!!
Personally I'm just tires of the abuse and mismanagement of almost all rights and privelages associated with FN people, not the people themselves...

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

Agreed what are you waiting for...I want to commend Joe for stepping up and sorry to see the unwarranted attacks he's facing for stepping up and trying to engage in a healthy debate.

As has been stated, this issue wont get resolved here and most of the debate was largely because of a cull on federal lands where for some reason Indians are allowed to shoot bulls and licensed hunters only allowed to put in for draws for cows. Someone somewhere established the rules of engagement so my advice is hate the game not the players...This cull should not be called a hunt...

I have seen no outright attacks. I have seen small little digs, from both sides. It has been one of the most healthy respectful 20 page debates in history on this topic. Has there even been any posts removed?

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Talking Moose has not seen no outright attacks. I have seen small little digs, from both sides. It has been one of the most healthy respectful 20 page debates in history on this topic. Has there even been any posts removed?

There, fixed it for ya.....

[drake]

"The need to pass on the tradition" is a poor reason for FN to maintain unregulated hunting privilages. i have no proble carrying on the outdoor traditions within the bounds of the hunting fishing and trapping regs.

[Talking moose]

Talking moose also feels that by asking for thread to be closed multiple times by one side, does not help said side. Just leave the debate if you've had your fill.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

I have seen no outright attacks. I have seen small little digs, from both sides. It has been one of the most healthy respectful 20 page debates in history on this topic. Has there even been any posts removed?

You haven't seen any outright attacks, because you are unbiased enough to not perceive a simple case of disagreement as an attack. Unfortunately, with some people, everyone that doesn't share their opinion is uninformed and outright wrong, and expressing that difference of opinion is seen as an attack.

Talking moose also feels that by asking for thread to be closed multiple times by one side, does not help said side. Just leave the debate if you've had your fill.

Some people just want to state their opinion, and then have the thread closed before other people can state their opinions. They seem to have the idea, that once they have posted their opinion, nobody else's opinion matters.

[crownb]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

Agreed what are you waiting for...I want to commend Joe for stepping up and sorry to see the unwarranted attacks he's facing for stepping up and trying to engage in a healthy debate.

As has been stated, this issue wont get resolved here and most of the debate was largely because of a cull on federal lands where for some reason Indians are allowed to shoot bulls and licensed hunters only allowed to put in for draws for cows. Someone somewhere established the rules of engagement so my advice is hate the game not the players...This cull should not be called a hunt...

Why is it only one side that wants the thread shut down, I as well have seen zero "unwarranted attacks" there has been great debate on this thread and should not be locked because a couple of posters are tired of it, simply move along and disengage, thanks mods for letting the debate continue. Hey mb-mbr do you have any comment on Kurts earlier post about the numbers of fn people in reserve and the harvest of one of each species per person who is able to hunt.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You haven't seen any outright attacks, because you are unbiased enough to not perceive a simple case of disagreement as an attack. Unfortunately, with some people, everyone that doesn't share their opinion is uninformed and outright wrong, and expressing that difference of opinion is seen as an attack.



Some people just want to state their opinion, and then have the thread closed before other people can state their opinions. They seem to have the idea, that once they have posted their opinion, nobody else's opinion matters.

Some are also perceptive enough to realize no solution or understanding is going to be achieved on the subject matter on an internet forum....

Question.............can an opinion ever be wrong????

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

Question.............can an opinion ever be wrong????

Better yet, can rights be wrong?


^^^^ You see what I did there?^^^^

[SmokinJoe]

Kurt. Mods said it was getting old. Move on, I did

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Do you allow your elders to go without? I'm sure even with limits the younger generation would make sure this would never be the case. Like supporting children, seniors can still be taken care of.

A FN reserve with say 200 ppl, of the 200, 140 are of age, and ability to harvest game. Suppose there is a limit of one animal per person per species. 140 moose, 140 elk, 280 deer. Even IF wild game was the only source of meat for the reserve (which I doubt is the case with any reserve in Canada), there would be plenty of meat to go around, with plenty of abundance left over. All a limit and regulation would do is stop the abuse of the system, it wouldn't take any food out of the mouths of the hungry.

Do you think the current harvest is more than what you are suggesting?

I'm not sure but doesn't a certain group in native cultures do most of the hunting for the whole band?

If that is the case would it not make more sense just to give the band X amount of tags per year?

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Better yet, can rights be wrong?


^^^^ You see what I did there?^^^^

I see that.....

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

Some are also perceptive enough to realize no solution or understanding is going to be achieved on the subject matter on an internet forum....

Question.............can an opinion ever be wrong????

If those people really felt that no solution or understanding was going to be achieved, why would they even waste their time posting on the thread in the first place?

And once they had taken the time to post, why would they want to deny anyone else a chance to post on the topic, by asking for the thread to be closed?

Kurt. Mods said it was getting old. Move on, I did

If you moved on, who is posting under your username?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by drake

"The need to pass on the tradition" is a poor reason for FN to maintain unregulated hunting privilages. i have no proble carrying on the outdoor traditions within the bounds of the hunting fishing and trapping regs.

I agree...I come from a family of hunters and butchers and farmers....the traditions have been passed and the rules and regs adhered to, probably like many of the folks here.

LC

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by SmokinJoe

Kurt. Mods said it was getting old. Move on, I did

Really? Lol.

The thread is still progressing, I'm still keeping it civil and making valid points. I realize I am casting FN harvesting rights in a bad light, you have to understand that is my intention. As a non FN Canadian I don't agree with unlimited and unregulated hunting. I'm not breaking any rules nor am I being disrespectful to any member. I don't think it's your place to tell me to move on just because I'm making a good case not in your favor.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I agree...I come from a family of hunters and butchers and farmers....the traditions have been passed and the rules and regs adhered to, probably like many of the folks here.

LC

Exactly, my ancestors were hunters for several generations, and the hunting regulations did not keep them from passing that tradition on to the next generation.